Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[skies]

what if the Latios user predicts the Bisharp & uses HP fire instead? It still 2HKO's AV variants. and if you try to predict the switch out you risk dying, again.

Tyranitar is pretty much the only "safe" switch into Latios. He has the ability to eliminate every other one of his "counters" with the appropriate coverage move or Trick.

As I've said, it's all just one large mind game depending on the coverage.

 

[D3CON]

I kind of support lati@s rising to S rank, but I will take my reasoning in a different approach.
S Rank: Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well.
Latios can run both a trick specs or a trick scarf set with decent success. Latias can run a cm set. Lati@s is the best defogger for offence hands down and is the best healing wish user on offence. Can be used to stop genies from wrecking havoc on offence based teams. Latias is extremely good at tanking a few hard hitters (keldeo lul) with a respectable 130 base SpDef, while also being able to hit extremely hard with STAB Draco with an LO. Lati@s is by far the best Dragon SpAtk mon, no other mons come close. 110 Spd is an extremely good speed tier, beating most megas who aren't boosted. Gets access to psyshock to attack on the physical side. So I think it's safe to say that lati@s can play a variety of roles very effectively.
S Rank: Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted.
You literally lose nothing by slapping a lati@s on your team, while it can be a win clause at times. I shall put ye 'ol there is no reliable switch ins to a lati, because of the coverage of surf, eq, hp fire/fighting. But this argument is pretty situational and unique moves can be scouted. However, this does rebuke that lati has severe 4MSS.
S Rank: Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Now here comes the iffy part. How much is few? Lati@s does have some negative drawbacks. The 2 most common ones in my eyes being pursuit and steel types. I think talking about pusuit vs sucker punch mind games is a bit narrow minded, as this is assuming the lati player stays in and does not predict the (fairly obvious) bisharp/ttar. That is taking pokemon in a 1v1 context. It's easy to say weezing beats arceus, therefore it shouldn't be ubers. Nevertheless, I'm fairly sure after the aegi ban bisharp usage has fallen, please correct me if I am wrong (talking about personal ladder experience here). Sand offence is starting to become less predominant aswell, now that mons like herra are becoming a thing. So, yes, bisharp and ttar beat lati 1v1 relatively reliably(as long as no hp fighting), but this implies you have managed to get in one of them relatively safely. Now onto steels, I completely agree that steels give lati hell, since surf/hp fire/eq is horrific coverage. But the issue of steel types just have to be resolved by your other 5 mons, or by dragmag (bar heatran) which is becoming more popular recently.
All in all, lati@s are great mons, but they do have obvious flaws. I'm kind of on the fence, but I am personally more leaning towards it going in to S class.

 

[koista12]

I don't think lati@s should be S rank. They have horrible 4MSS. Surf means they can't get past ferrothorn or azumarill, HP fire means they can't beat tyranitar or azumarill, thunderbolt means they can't hit any steel types or tyranitar for meaningful damage.

Latios in particular is a shaky check to keldeo, because scald burns really suck and he's takes like 40% for specs scald.

I find they are both worn down really easily without roost, between te rocks they are trying to be removing, life orb recoil, and any status from rotom/keldeo/random walls.

Lastly, they are pursuit weak, meaning they have to play mindgames every time a tyranitar or Bisharp is on the opposing team.

I'm not denying lati@s are great pokemon, they are some of the easiest pokemon to slap on a team in the tier. But their flaws prevent them from becoming S rank IMO.

 

[Daniel Farmer]

I don't think lati@s should be S rank. They have horrible 4MSS. Surf means they can't get past ferrothorn or azumarill, HP fire means they can't beat tyranitar or azumarill, thunderbolt means they can't hit any steel types or tyranitar for meaningful damage.

Latios in particular is a shaky check to keldeo, because scald burns really suck and he's takes like 40% for specs scald.

I find they are both worn down really easily without roost, between te rocks they are trying to be removing, life orb recoil, and any status from rotom/keldeo/random walls.

Lastly, they are pursuit weak, meaning they have to play mindgames every time a tyranitar or Bisharp is on the opposing team.

I'm not denying lati@s are great pokemon, they are some of the easiest pokemon to slap on a team in the tier. But their flaws prevent them from becoming S rank IMO.

Azumarill is not a switch into Lati@s, just saying. Latios's psyshock is a clean 2HKO and Azumarill not only doesn't outspeed but AJ is resisted. if your team doesn't need defog Draco/Psyshock/HP fire/ surf or EQ is the best set

 

[Srn]

I definitely don't support lati@s to S rank. It has no spammable move like specs keldeo scald, its incredibly easy to handle even for offensive teams with common mons like ttar, scarftran, and practically every other steel in existence; its super easy to revenge kill with a simple scarfed u-turn, sand rush exca, scarf tar, scarf tran god I could go on forever. Its just way too easy to handle and its not really a threat, every team has a good answer to it. Not to mention that the things it should actually switch into can just lure it in and beat it anyway (knock off on thundurus/landorus, icy wind keld, etc). Its not even versatile b/c it has to be life orb to actually hurt things but its pretty sub-par as a choiced mon cuz you usually use a lati@s to clear hazards in the first place. And we all know how bad its 4MSS is,,,
Then there's the raw amount of things that just beat it. While you do kinda have to scout for movesets, 80% of the time you're a solid switch-in and its not difficult to scout its moves.

lati switch-ins

Bisharp
Chansey
Clefable
Ferrothorn
Gardevoir
Heatran
Mandibuzz
Mew
Scizor
Skarm (only beats eq tho :< )
Tyranitar
Klefki
Jirachi
Doublade
Cresselia
AV torn-t

I'm probably forgetting some too, and that's a fking gigantic list of mons that u just need to scout maybe an hp fire for. And its definitely not difficult to fit one of these into any kind of team ever.

Too easy to revenge kill, Too easy to switch into, Too easy to lure, Too easy to trap. Its not an S rank mon at all. Stay in A+

 

[TFL]

Uhh, i think Zapdos' position is pretty just as it is, since it pretty much stops bird spam in its tracks without getting trapped by mag.

I don't think there is another mon which defensively checks bird spam like zapdos does.

Why hello thar n_n

 

[AM]

The Latis are simply not S rank material. At one point we were a little lax in establishing what is considered an S rank mon in terms of the viability thread. The problem is that now we get nominations like this that are really just lowering the standard of what goes up and goes down simply based on usage more so than actual viability. Imo the S rank mons should establish the best of the best from a more factual standpoint than a subjective one. This is suppose to be a given but generally we do, even myself, find ourselves making nominations based more on something that is used often and just say "Oh yeah this is good because I see it all the time." There is no denying that the Latis are fantastic, but to the point that we would consider them meta game defining equal to that of Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, and Azumarill is kind of baffling to me. I ignored the other two cause I don't believe Keldeo should be S rank, and even after considering Char X still an S rank threat I do have my doubts from a more practical level than a logical one. Any consistent OU players know what the Latis are capable of, posting a bunch of calcs to prove a point seems like a bore when there are too many factors to go off of simple calcs anyone can pull up. It's already been generally mentioned on why the Latis shouldn't be S rank but the fact that the Latis do need some general support and can only handle so much on their own individually warrants a decision to keep them at A+. The rise of so many threats like Jirachi, Scarfed Lando-T, M-Gardevoir, and others is even more reason for the Latis not to be considered S ranked mons. They define the meta in a way that they are considered one of the best defoggers in the tier, have multiple superb traits that allow teams to utilize offensively and defensively, and are a staple on such teams due to their reliability. These positive traits however require enough team support to actually utilize which justifies their current ranking, and not that of S. Keep both Latis at A+.

In the future if we do move them up or down, we should consider moving them up as a pair and not individually. The differences between both Latias and Latios for the most part balance out in terms of pros and cons to where they have equal viability and unless a huge change takes place in the tier, will remain consistent for quite awhile. I might add an opinion to on Keldeo later when I've gathered my thoughts. Never thought it was an S rank mon to begin with and it still isn't.

 

[D3CON]

Why hello thar n_n

LOL. And by that I meant something that's higher ranking wise, I'll edit the post to clarify that.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

LOL. And by that I meant something that's higher ranking wise, I'll edit the post to clarify that.

Mega Aerodactyl solos bird teams just saying.

 

[Master B8s]

Im gonna suggest moving Weavile up from B- -> B. A 252 LO Weavile can OHKO Garchomp after SR, and has an 81% chance to kill Dragonite THROUGH multiscale with ice punch, so if you have rocks up, which is not uncommon, its a guarenteed OHKO with ice shard after Rocks. Weavile can outspeed Greninja and has a good chance to kill it with low kick after rocks. He can Pursuit trap, but knock off seems much better option seeing how Weavile needs all his other moves. Knock off OHKo's Both of the Latis. He checks Landorus with ice shard OHKOing even though it outspeeds with ice punch. Ice Shard has a good chance to kill Thundurus after rocks to. Weavile cannot counter many, if any pokemon in OU with his terrible bulk, but he hits hard and can really put work into a team with the right plays.
Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-374 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 343-406 (96 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 224-265 (78.3 - 92.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 424-502 (140.8 - 166.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Latias is bulkier, so I'm just putting its calc)
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 348-421 (109 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 218-257 (72.9 - 85.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[AsynchronousIO]

I have to agree with Jukain re Diancie. My post on Diancie in the old thread:

Diancie: I honestly have no idea what this does in OU. It wants to go mixed because Dia Storm + Moonblast but 100/100 offenses and no recovery or reliable boosting just aren't cutting it. It's really bulky but gets worn down because no recovery, some common weaknesses like Ground and Water, and is slow af. Easy entry point for Excadrill because HP Fire off 100 SpA is kind of ass (this thing really wishes it had EQ or something). It's not even a good Zard X stop (which some people thought it would be) because +1 EQ destroys it with a little prior damage. It's outclassed by Carbink because Carbink is cuter. (To its credit, it can one-shot Keldeo with Moonblast, but Keldeo switches in on anything else and it's dead.) I wouldn't consider using this until the Mega comes out. D rank is fine for it.

To expound on that: the biggest dealbreaker with Diancie as a TR lead is that, unlike Zong, it gets destroyed by weather offense. It's going to lose to things like Lead Chomp/Mamo, Landorus, Excadrill utterly laughs at it if it has no HP Fire (which it won't be running if you're going TR+SR), offensive Toed, and the like. Sure, it stops burds, but so does Zong.

Diancie can only really do one thing (the tank set without TR is ass) and even that it can't really do that well. If you're gonna run Explosion over one of the STABs, you might as well be using Zong. I would rather use Reuniclus and Uxie as TR setters than Diancie--it's that bad. So I think it is more niche than niche, because Zong is a better TR setter, and if it must be ranked, it's D tops.

Post Mawilite-ban, I may make one more push for Pinsir to S. Agreeing with Albacore, I think Pins is now the best mega, better than Zard X at this point (and I love Zard X), even if Zard X is much more versatile. Pinsir only does one thing, but it does it excellently while needing only standard hazard laying and removal support, things not hard to come by in this meta. It's an excellent teammate to all the dangerous birds in the tier and its sheer power is a huge part of what makes bird spam so threatening. The fact that trapping Skarm got a bit easier is icing on the cake. So yeah. Pinsir to S.

 

[Numera]

Ok, so I'm going to tackle the 3 Pokemon that have been nominated for S Rank. I'm not even sure, so maybe talking about them will help me find out where I think they should go.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

First, Latios. If Latios were to go to S Rank, it would be because there are a fair few roles it can preform effectively. There's the hard hitting Specs Trick set that serves as a useful wallbreaker, a Scarfed set that can be a nice revenge killer/cleaner that checks a fair few Pokemon and an offensive deffoging set. All of these roles, I must say, are pulled off very well by Latios. It's got a nice movepool to support all of these sets, checks/wallbreaks a fair amount of the metagame (depending on the set) and puts on A LOT of offensive pressure as a defogger. However, the huge list of Latios switch-ins makes this one interesting. Things like Tyranitar, Chansey, Clefable, ext have no trouble switching in on this thing (the latter 2 have to watch out for Trick sets), and those Pokemon are VERY common in the metagame right now because they are good. It certainly limits Latios' usefulness, seeing as 1 of those is a Pursuit Trapper. It's also checked by a huge amount of Pokemon in this metagame (bar the scarf set but that's it's worse set) such as Greninja, Scarf Garchomp and Scarf Landourus-T. There's also the fact that Latios has too many grinding flaws to be S Rank. It hasn't got very spammable attacks for an offensive Pokemon, it's a defogger for who the most part loses to every pursuit trapper bar maybe Scizor if it has HP Fire, ext. Overall, I personally think Latios would be at S Rank standard, but all the things that switch in to it and all the things that check it are very common in this metagame, so it can't be S Rank. I didn't have to go into the whole risk vs reward thing (which is in Latios' favour) but the fact of it being dealt with so easily in the metagame limits it's usefulness and prevents it from being S Rank.

Now onto his sister, Latias. Unlike her brother, would be S Rank for performing one role extremely well, and that role is defogging. Now I hope you all agree with me, but I personally think that Latias herself is the best defogger in the entire game, and that's because of her access to Healing Wish. This is a truly fantastic supporting move for offensive teams, and is one of the reasons Latias is so easy to slap on offence, along with her still bringing offensive pressure to the table. She's fantastic... but suffers from the same thing as Latios, only worse. So many switch ins, so much that checks it, ext. Latias also finds it harder to break through common walls unlike her brother. She DOES have the edge vs pursuit trappers though as she always has Healing Wish, but it's still an insta death, even more so than it is with Latios. Overall, while Latias is the best defogger in the game, I feel like it has too many grinding falls AND doesn't have low risk high reward. There is risk, seeing as something like Clefable could just switch in when you want to defog and set up CMs, and Clefable isn't the only Pokemon to do this. Latias and her brother stay in A+.

Onto Mega Pinsir. Unlike the last to, Mega Pinsir for S is really something I could see happening. It's got 1 role that it preforms almost perfectly, with VERY few flaws, and that is wallbreaking. I doubt anyone could argue otherwise, seeing as it's counters (Skarmory and Latios) are falling in viability or a destroyed by his commonly seen partners. Mega Pinsir has 2 sets, the Sub set and the SD set, both of which wallbreak very well, about as well if not better than the Mega Wallbreakers. Together, they make Mega Pinsir's wallbreaking standards S Rank. As for risk vs reward, when using Pinsir, due to the lack of switch ins and limited checks due to Quick Attack/Substitute, I feel like there is little risk using this thing and very high reward exerted. In other words, I feel as if Mega Pinsir passes the criteria with flying colours. Mega Pinsir for S Rank.

Later on in the day I'll be talking about why a few of the S Rank Pokemon could move down.

 

[D3CON]

Mega Aerodactyl solos bird teams just saying.

That is true but mega aero can not reliably switch in on birdspam w/o taking a butt load of damage or risking mega pinsir/raptor going for CC. My whole point about zapdos is that it defensively checks birdspam. But yeah, mons like mega aero and mega manectric put in work vs birdspam

 

[BAKAResh]

Onto Mega Pinsir. Unlike the last to, Mega Pinsir for S is really something I could see happening. It's got 1 role that it preforms almost perfectly, with VERY few flaws, and that is wallbreaking. I doubt anyone could argue otherwise, seeing as it's counters (Skarmory and Latios) are falling in viability or a destroyed by his commonly seen partners. Mega Pinsir has 2 sets, the Sub set and the SD set, both of which wallbreak very well, about as well if not better than the Mega Wallbreakers. Together, they make Mega Pinsir's wallbreaking standards S Rank. As for risk vs reward, when using Pinsir, due to the lack of switch ins and limited checks due to Quick Attack/Substitute, I feel like there is little risk using this thing and very high reward exerted. In other words, I feel as if Mega Pinsir passes the criteria with flying colours. Mega Pinsir for S Rank.

Later on in the day I'll be talking about why a few of the S Rank Pokemon could move down.

Everything was fine until this section came up. First of all sub MPinsir means you lose out on either SD or quick attack (More commonly SD) and that causes you to be even more walled than the counters that would usually switch in. You can no longer reliably 2HKO checks like Skarm, Rotom-W, Zapdos and the likes, making this set far less superior than SD as it requires WAYYYY to much support (Checks must be in less than 50% range for this set to work efficiently).

MPinsir has quite a few Switch ins there are pretty viable in the current meta. TTar, Zone(Soft check), Skarm, Rotom-W, Zapdos and any flyspam check in general. It requires support due to it's GLARING rocks weakness and is not as efficient as wallbreakers like Megacross (Skill link is too good), MegaCham (Phletora of moveset it can run), MegaGard (Taunt is a thing). Mega Pinsir is, however, very predictable and much easily played around by the decent player and thus I don't think it's qualities support any reasoning for it to move up to S. A+ is just fine for MPinsir.

 

[Numera]

Everything was fine until this section came up. First of all sub MPinsir means you lose out on either SD or quick attack (More commonly SD) and that causes you to be even more walled than the counters that would usually switch in. You can no longer reliably 2HKO checks like Skarm, Rotom-W, Zapdos and the likes, making this set far less superior than SD as it requires WAYYYY to much support (Checks must be in less than 50% range for this set to work efficiently).

MPinsir has quite a few Switch ins there are pretty viable in the current meta. TTar, Zone(Soft check), Skarm, Rotom-W, Zapdos and any flyspam check in general. It requires support due to it's GLARING rocks weakness and is not as efficient as wallbreakers like Megacross (Skill link is too good), MegaCham (Phletora of moveset it can run), MegaGard (Taunt is a thing). Mega Pinsir is, however, very predictable and much easily played around by the decent player and thus I don't think it's qualities support any reasoning for it to move up to S. A+ is just fine for MPinsir.

Losing SD for Sub isn't a problem, the sets aren't meant to play in the same way. They wallbreak, but both of them differently. The thing about the sub set is that checks have a harder time as the majority of them are too frail to actually check if it has a sub up.

Ofc, of all the things to forget, I FORGET THE ROCK WEAKNESS. Maybe that does warrant it staying in A+. To answer this one we must consider how well Pinsir pairs with common defoggers, and to be fair, Mega Pinsir does pair nicely with Latias, as that Healing Wish support can be ever so useful for Pinsir, not just the defogging. Latios could also run a set with Tbolt to deal with Skarm, as WELL as defogging, so that's something to consider. Then there's Magnezone... who would count as just support for Mega Pinsir... if it wasn't so great on it's own. In other words, the required support is normally just 1/2 Pokemon that partner brilliantly with it anyway. I also do consider Mega Pinsir as good as a wallbreaker as the other 2 because both of it's sets plough through stall as well as the others, without being less effective against offence due to very powerful priority.

There's a massive problem with your switch ins that knocks out at least 2 out of the water (TTar and Zone). CC is making short work of the pair of them, and while they might check, they aren't switch ins. Zapdos, Skarm and Rotom-W exist, but they aren't as viable as they were in the first Flyspam period early XY, and I'd argue that's enough to push Mega Pinsir to S Rank.

 

[BAKAResh]

Losing SD for Sub isn't a problem, the sets aren't meant to play in the same way. They wallbreak, but both of them differently. The thing about the sub set is that checks have a harder time as the majority of them are too frail to actually check if it has a sub up.

Ofc, of all the things to forget, I FORGET THE ROCK WEAKNESS. Maybe that does warrant it staying in A+. To answer this one we must consider how well Pinsir pairs with common defoggers, and to be fair, Mega Pinsir does pair nicely with Latias, as that Healing Wish support can be ever so useful for Pinsir, not just the defogging. Latios could also run a set with Tbolt to deal with Skarm, as WELL as defogging, so that's something to consider. Then there's Magnezone... who would count as just support for Mega Pinsir... if it wasn't so great on it's own. In other words, the required support is normally just 1/2 Pokemon that partner brilliantly with it anyway. I also do consider Mega Pinsir as good as a wallbreaker as the other 2 because both of it's sets plough through stall as well as the others, without being less effective against offence due to very powerful priority.

There's a massive problem with your switch ins that knocks out at least 2 out of the water (TTar and Zone). CC is making short work of the pair of them, and while they might check, they aren't switch ins. Zapdos, Skarm and Rotom-W exist, but they aren't as viable as they were in the first Flyspam period early XY, and I'd argue that's enough to push Mega Pinsir to S Rank.

Great. How is it capable of wallbreaking when it can't even break the common walls? I don't get this part. Both ScarfTar and ScarfZone exist and they are both viable in the current game state but well they are more soft checks than hard counters. What has made you come to the conclusion that Zapdos, Skarm and Rotom-W aren't as viable as they were in the first Flyspam period early XY? Flying Spam checks are one of the FIRST THINGS that come to your mind when building a team because priority fly spams can really screw you over if you're unprepared. The checks that I mentioned are inexhaustible. There are still brutal weapons like LandoT, ThundyI, Gliscor, Mew, Scizor, Slowbro and more. And these are all threats in the A+ and A rank. Mega Pinsir needs heavy hazard support in order to work efficiently.

Again, I would like to emphasize that Sub is a subpar set to run if you're not running SD. SD turns Mega Pinsir into a wallbreaker/sweeper. Not the other way around.

 

[AM]

M-Pinsir isn't S rank either. It really has nothing to do with its over dependency of hazard removal which a lot of people put strong emphasis on. It falls under an awkward speed tier where it can handle a lot of things consistently from a speed stand point, and then has to depend on SD + priority in that particular case to handle some of the faster threats. The prior statement relies on Stealth Rocks to actually achieve the necessary KOs needed at +2 to not get screwed over by a potentially faster threat. As far as the Sub set goes, it helps mitigate some issues against offense and allows M-Pinsir some breathing room, but as stated, it's not breaking any walls and provides a role that needs support in a generally different way equal to that of the SD set. From a team building perspective most competent teams more or less have an answer to birdspam, and by default this includes M-Pinsir. If in practice M-Pinsir by itself could handle these problems with variations in its set similar to that of say, Azumarill, then it would be S rank material. Unfortunately it can't and because of that it should stay A+.

 

[Numera]

Great. How is it capable of wallbreaking when it can't even break the common walls? I don't get this part. Both ScarfTar and ScarfZone exist and they are both viable in the current game state but well they are more soft checks than hard counters. What has made you come to the conclusion that Zapdos, Skarm and Rotom-W aren't as viable as they were in the first Flyspam period early XY? Flying Spam checks are one of the FIRST THINGS that come to your mind when building a team because priority fly spams can really screw you over if you're unprepared. The checks that I mentioned are inexhaustible. There are still brutal weapons like LandoT, ThundyI, Gliscor, Mew, Scizor, Slowbro and more. And these are all threats in the A+ and A rank. Mega Pinsir needs heavy hazard support in order to work efficiently.

Again, I would like to emphasize that Sub is a subpar set to run if you're not running SD. SD turns Mega Pinsir into a wallbreaker/sweeper. Not the other way around.

They are still viable, but one cannot deny they are less viable then before, except maybe Rotom-W. Flying spam checks are nowadays things such as ScarfZone (as you said), Mega Aero, Scarf Heatran ext. If you are using a defensive team, it's normally Skarmory, who is falling in viability what all the Mega Wallbreakers and having no real way to stop, well, any of them, as it can't switch in. As for Zapdos, do I even have to say what's made this thing worse? Oh, I do? Sand Offence being all over the place. About the sub set not breaking common walls... I think I made a mistake and called it a wallbreaker. While it does fairly well against stall (I mean cmon Sub stops stall from even statusing the damn thing, and it still breaks Chansey, MVenu, Tran, Clefable, ext.) the Sub set seems to have an easier time with offence. It can sub on a switch in (say a check like Talonflame or something) and in a way prevent it from being a check and force it to get outta there or die. (the player would It's a set that sacrifices some stallbreaking power for usefulness against offence. Again... it needs 1 Pokemon to deal with hazards, and this Pokemon (be it Latios or Latias) is normally a great partner.

M-Pinsir isn't S rank either. It really has nothing to do with its over dependency of hazard removal which a lot of people put strong emphasis on. It falls under an awkward speed tier where it can handle a lot of things consistently from a speed stand point, and then has to depend on SD + priority in that particular case to handle some of the faster threats. The prior statement relies on Stealth Rocks to actually achieve the necessary KOs needed at +2 to not get screwed over by a potentially faster threat. As far as the Sub set goes, it helps mitigate some issues against offense and allows M-Pinsir some breathing room, but as stated, it's not breaking any walls and provides a role that needs support in a generally different way equal to that of the SD set. From a team building perspective most competent teams more or less have an answer to birdspam, and by default this includes M-Pinsir. If in practice M-Pinsir by itself could handle these problems with variations in its set similar to that of say, Azumarill, then it would be S rank material. Unfortunately it can't and because of that it should stay A+.

You bring some points that I've taken into consideration. Now looking at it, you are possibly right and now I'm torn :/

I'm now going to talk about why Landorus isn't an S Rank threat any more. I remember the days when Landorus was a stall breaking titan that could 6 - 0 the tier with ease, and was deemed broken. This is no longer the case. Landorus no longer 6 - 0es stall because stall has evolved to deal with it. We have things such as CBBnite, Torn-T, Gliscor and Cresselia which are solid stall Pokemon and solid Lando counters (as long as Lando lacks HP Ice for the former 2). In other words, switching in on Landorus is no longer this huge impossibility it used to be. The 2nd thing is the increase of Lando checks. Scarf HP Ice Magnezone, Keldeo, Azumarill, HP Ice Thundurus ext are all more viable then ever in the current metagame, and Lando's previous checks are still viable as ever, such as Greninja and Mamoswine. It doesn't face off well against a lot of the Pokemon around it and is now very easy to prepare for. Landorus for A+.

 

[mien]

Mega-Pinsir should definitely be S-rank, it's currently dominating both tournaments and the top ladder alike.

Skarmory isn't a reliable counter to it(even if your opponent doesn't run magnezone). It hits harder and is faster then almost anything in the game and even "surefire" counters like zapdos can't switch into the subflail set that is getting increasingly popular.

 

[WideTomato]

I honestly really support latios for S

It's power is simply stunning, and Draco meteor can often get a kill every time late game. Psychock coupled with its great power gives it the ability to hit special walls on the physical side and nail them with a 2hko on the switch, at least after some prior damage. It's offensive pressure makes it able to force a lot of swithes, making it the best user of defog in addiction to this, it is actually able to beat bisharp 1v1 as Draco 2hko a lot of the time. It also have a lot of versatility in coverage, as it can handpick the so-called counters that it want to beat 1v1, I'll list the ones I find the most useful.

Hp fighting: allows it to always ohko bisharp, as well as doing great against TTar and heatran.
Hp fire: allows it to beat scizor and ferro, as well as doing a bit better against excadrill, magnezone etc.
Thunderbolt: allows it to beat most flying types, such as skarmory and mandybuzz.
Surf: allows it to do better against heatran, TTar, hippowdon, excadrill and spedeff flame.
EQ: allows it to ko heatran as well as stuff like TTar and roosting spdeff tflame and magnezone.

I honestly think latios deserves the S ranking, and I would not mind Latias moving with him, though I think the brother is overall the more useful one, at least in the current meta... ^^

 

[koista12]

I honestly really support latios for S

It's power is simply stunning, and Draco meteor can often get a kill every time late game. Psychock coupled with its great power gives it the ability to hit special walls on the physical side and nail them with a 2hko on the switch, at least after some prior damage. It's offensive pressure makes it able to force a lot of swithes, making it the best user of defog in addiction to this, it is actually able to beat bisharp 1v1 as Draco 2hko a lot of the time. It also have a lot of versatility in coverage, as it can handpick the so-called counters that it want to beat 1v1, I'll list the ones I find the most useful.

Hp fighting: allows it to always ohko bisharp, as well as doing great against TTar and heatran.
Hp fire: allows it to beat scizor and ferro, as well as doing a bit better against excadrill, magnezone etc.
Thunderbolt: allows it to beat most flying types, such as skarmory and mandybuzz.
Surf: allows it to do better against heatran, TTar, hippowdon, excadrill and spedeff flame.
EQ: allows it to ko heatran as well as stuff like TTar and roosting spdeff tflame and magnezone.

I honestly think latios deserves the S ranking, and I would not mind Latias moving with him, though I think the brother is overall the more useful one, at least in the current meta... ^^

Latios can only run one of those coverage moves at once, so its only killing like 2 or 3 of all the pokemon you mentioned, and gets walled by the others.

As far as pinsir for s, it is really good, but I find his speed tier to be really depressing sometimes, as many things on offense are faster, and his absolute reliance on hazards removal really sucks. Scarf lando t and the popularity of sand offense is not helping him either.

 

[Numera]

Could Magneton be considered for a rank? All you really lose out on when using Scarf Magneton over Scarf Magnezone is bulk (which isn't all that important, since when you're not trapping stuff you're usually spamming volt switch) and power (which does make it trickier to dispose of Ferrothorn, but you usually beat it anyway unless it gets a silly amount of protects in a row). In return, you gain ability to outspeed Greninja, Jolly Talonflame, +1 MGyara and Starmie. Scarf Ton also outspeeds some more minor stuff such as Raikou and Weavile, but the 4 Pokemon I mentioned in the first place are relevant enough for me to honestly prefer Scarf Magneton to Scarf Magnezone. Obviously Magnezone pulls off the Specs and Magnet Rise sets much better, but Magneton is just as good, if not better a scarfer than Magnezone, and I therefore feel it should be ranked, probably C- for now.

Bringing this up because it has to happen. Currently in the metagame, Greninja is a bitch to offensive teams and flyspam starts to run Jolly Talonflame to deal with Scarf Zone. Due to this, Scarf Magneton has a niche being able to check both of them, and also being a rare check to a MDos at +1, as Albacore here said, which is also extremely helpful. Heck even checking Starmie is damn nice. I know you lose power and bulk (then again tbh the loss in power isn't by too much) but being able to check the Pokemon it does gives it a niche of some sort, so it does deserve a rank. I am going to settle for C-, as it's not so bad that there's almost no reason to use it over it's adult/child (like in the case of Bilssey), because checking Jolly Talon, +1 MDos and Ninja is pretty damn relevant over it's father. This keeps it out of D Rank and lands it higher.

I think it's finally time to nominate Lando-T for S Rank. Here's something I'd like to show you.

| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 22.280% |

Y'know why this is, am I right? Lando-T, as of now, fits in some really amazing cores, does multiple roles incredibly effectively, easily outweighs it's few flaws with all of those positive traits (scarf set checks a ton, nice match up with a lot of the metagame, Intimidate, Knock Off access, a way to check birdspam, ext) and how easily it fits on to a team. I'm not even kidding when I say that I can slap this thing on most of my teams even easier than I can Azumarill, because of how much in the meta it can deal with just by me slapping it on a team. The roles it supplies (be it be scarf or SR) are always great and it always pulls it's weight in a game. Heck, there's even low risk using this thing and high reward involving using this thing, especially with the scarf set, seeing as how it's scarf set is not only an easy way to check to a huge amount of threats very effectively but also an easy way to gain momentum, which is huge for offensive teams. Overall, I've just listed how it comes under S Rank standards. I might be wrong, but this is what I think looking at it as a whole in this metagame. Lando-T for S.

(Thanks LZH14 I'm half asleep)

 

[LZH14]

"nominate Lando-T for S Rank"

"Lando-T for A+."

alrighty then

the magneton idea is interesting, i actually wanna play around with it a bit now
although i'll probably just end up looking like an ass
it feels kinda like a surplus nom really, ranking for the sake of ranking, that sort of thing, im probably not making any sense here w/e

 

[Ropeburn]

I disagree with promoting Lando-T to S rank. Lando is an amazing pokemon. It is a nice check to physical attackers, has good speed and a very healthy movepool to abuse. However, it has no way of recovery, making it extremely easy to wear down. Landorus is an amazing glue to teams, but it's not even close on the spectrum of ease when it comes to being slapped on teams as Azumarill is. If we move Lando-T up, then there are numerous other pokemon that might as well be bumped up as well. A+ is more than good enough in my opinion.

Edit: Also am completely behind the idea of bumping Magneton onto the ranking somewhere.. The niche of being able to outspeed Greninja with Scarf is enough of a niche to justify a ranking. (Way more than fucking Umbreon)

 

[Albacore]

Okay, Landorus-T. Until very recently (pretty much until today), I wouldn't have even considered Lando-T for S due to the fact that it has many flaws, probably more so than any current S rank : it's not difficult to counter, weak to common types, is prone to getting worn down, and doesn't deal well with the omnipresence of water types, both offensive and defensive, in the current metagame.

However, I've started to realise that Landorus-T and the Lati twins are quite similar, in that fact that the support they provide is just so good and so valuable to so many teams that the pros of using them heavily outweigh their cons and people learn to accept their flaws, and they end up being chosen sometimes more by necessity than by choice. They therefore end up finding themselves on a very large number of teams, and rightly so. Simply put, if Latias and Latios belong in S in my mind, not because of how hard they are to deal with but rather due to how easy it is to justify placing them on a team, then it would be contradictory not to support a rise for Landorus-T too.

I guess this all depends on whether the viability rankings are supposed to be an indicator of which Pokemon you should use as opposed to which Pokemon you should watch out for, but I've previously approached them as the former more than the latter (feel free to call me out if I'm just wrong about what "viability" actually means). So yeah, I never thought I'd say this but I support Landorus-T for S rank.