Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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I'm not saying Emp is bad. I'm saying it's very situational and team matchup based. Outside of picking up +1 boosts (or with volt absorb getting a heal and still not doing much) and Defog, it really doesn't do much. Yes--it can fish for Scald burns, but aside from that it's extremely passive.

Goodra not only has plenty of switch in opportunities, but it's always a factor in the game. Dragon typing is excellent for switching in. Not to mention how aggressive Goodra is. It simply is better than Empoleon. Hell--Doublade is better, but it's had (almost) no love this go round.

I'm not saying people can't vote for Emp, I'm saying that a lot of the reasons behind those votes are flawed.
 
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it can fish for Scald burns, but aside from that it's extremely passive.
Setting up rocks or knock off is far from passive though. Compared to most electric counters, Empoleon wants them to stay alive to have infinite chances to get in and ruin the swapped in counter... a counter who likely won't like eating Scald, Knock Off or letting you get rocks in their face. If anything, having your electric type alive is more of a liability since, unless you switch in the pokemon whom Emp already crippled, your team might be 2+ item-less guys.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 104-123 (27.9 - 33%) -- 86.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Unless I'm mistaken, Latios with Thunderbolt is also becoming popular in ORAS.

0- Atk Empoleon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 134-158 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

Not too shabby for an fully minimized negative natured attack.
 
Setting up rocks or knock off is far from passive though. Compared to most electric counters, Empoleon wants them to stay alive to have infinite chances to get in and ruin the swapped in counter... a counter who likely won't like eating Scald, Knock Off or letting you get rocks in their face. If anything, having your electric type alive is more of a liability since, unless you switch in the pokemon whom Emp already crippled, your team might be 2+ item-less guys.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 104-123 (27.9 - 33%) -- 86.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Unless I'm mistaken, Latios with Thunderbolt is also becoming popular in ORAS.

0- Atk Empoleon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 134-158 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

Not too shabby for an fully minimized negative natured attack.
You're relying too much on Electric STAB with this. That's why it's so situational. Rotom-W is not on every team, so I really not a huge fan of having something that situational. There are plenty of teams without any Electric types as well, so that furthers the degree to which it's situational. Yes--Empoleon is good at setting up rocks, but so are a lot of things. At the end of the day it does a lot of things that compete with it, and it can't run all that support at once. Any stall player can tell you that you don't want to compress a SR setter and a Defogger in one mon. It puts too much pressure on that mon to do it's jobs, and it becomes easy to play around. Additionally, Empoleon is just BEGGING to be taunted. It's not really that hard to shut down or turn into a liability. I really don't think Empoleon is going to rock OU. It's absolutely a great boost in viability if you look at where it was, but it's not gonna end up too highly ranked.
 
You're relying too much on Electric STAB with this. That's why it's so situational. Rotom-W is not on every team, so I really not a huge fan of having something that situational. There are plenty of teams without any Electric types as well, so that furthers the degree to which it's situational. Yes--Empoleon is good at setting up rocks, but so are a lot of things. At the end of the day it does a lot of things that compete with it, and it can't run all that support at once. Any stall player can tell you that you don't want to compress a SR setter and a Defogger in one mon. It puts too much pressure on that mon to do it's jobs, and it becomes easy to play around. Additionally, Empoleon is just BEGGING to be taunted. It's not really that hard to shut down or turn into a liability. I really don't think Empoleon is going to rock OU. It's absolutely a great boost in viability if you look at where it was, but it's not gonna end up too highly ranked.
So what if its not gonna end up top tier ranked? It can still be higher up than it damn well is now! We aren't suppose to make every damn thing epic.

Sure it can stop rotom and I guess that's fine. It also acts as a great twave switch in for your sweeper. It can set rocks up if it wishes ad sure its begging to be taunted but hell it can do other damn things besides defog away. Its already got an admirable niche of countering Gren (outside of ORAS low kick) and harrassing with scald.

And really, for Christs sakes mascaldthey want to vote for it, let them! Its their opinion and vote and while I can see trying to sway their opinion towards yours but if they want it just let them. Its not like that damn roost empoleon where it was a waste but just relax on it man.
 
So what if its not gonna end up top tier ranked? It can still be higher up than it damn well is now! We aren't suppose to make every damn thing epic.
I find that to be anti concept for the thread, to be blunt. Why should we not strive to make something as good as it possibly can be, given out limitations? Not optimizing the metagame does not sound like the intentions of this thread.

And really, for Christs sakes mascaldthey want to vote for it, let them! Its their opinion and vote and while I can see trying to sway their opinion towards yours but if they want it just let them. Its not like that damn roost empoleon where it was a waste but just relax on it man.
Bro...
I'm not saying people can't vote for Emp, I'm saying that a lot of the reasons behind those votes are flawed.
 
Meta Top tier.
I find that to be anti concept for the thread, to be blunt. Why should we not strive to make something as good as it possibly can be, given out limitations? Not optimizing the metagame does not sound like the intentions of this thread.



Bro...
Yah we strive to do this but it isn't fully possible to do that with all Mons so we strive to buff them to the best we can. I'd love to get everything top tier but we aren't getting everything up there. And I love just getting something with a worthwhile buff up there that has the capaibility of being brought up and we can see if it does do good instead of something that immediately pops out as Meta defining.


And frankly I was starting to get bit mad there at the end and started misconstruting the last part of the post a bit. Sorry but was getting to me.
 
Meta Top tier.

Yah we strive to do this but it isn't fully possible to do that with all Mons so we strive to buff them to the best we can. I'd love to get everything top tier but we aren't getting everything up there. And I love just getting something with a worthwhile buff up there that has the capaibility of being brought up and we can see if it does do good instead of something that immediately pops out as Meta defining.


And frankly I was starting to get bit mad there at the end and started misconstruting the last part of the post a bit. Sorry but was getting to me.
I understand where you're coming from. I do. I just think that if we have one thing that is top tier and one thing that isn't, we should vote the top tier one in. I would rather have more top tier mons in a meta than a lot of "things that just got better". However, I can understand that this is a philosophical difference, and you are entitled to your opinion. Just know that I'm coming from the opposite direction.

Glad we could clear things up. I wouldn't want animosity between us.
 
Erm... Anyways, kinda late, but I'll just say stuff .3.
Lightning Rod Empoleon - I could see Empoleon being able to fit both offensive and defensive roles. It has an amazing typing, giving it resistances/immunities to Electric, Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water, and Poison. These resistances allow it to effectively wall Lati@s, Magnezone (which will inevitably skyrocket in usage in ORAS), Manectric, Rotom-W, Thundurus (lacking Focus Blast), Sylveon, Clefable, Scizor, and Klefki, all relevant in OU. Backed up by a respectable 110 SpA and a movepool that provides most of what it needs, Empoleon will be effective at defogging, actually resisting SR to defog out, or possibly a more offensive role, taking advantage of the switches that its type grants and excellent coverage. However, it is held back by its dreaded Ground and Fighting weakness... Wait. What doesn't care about Ground or Fighting moves, hates Stealth Rock, paralysis, Ice attacks, Rock attacks, general electric attacks, but loves having stealth rock up? BirdSpam \o/ It has excellent type synergy with Dragonite, Gyarados, Landorus, Talonflame, Togekiss... just Flying types in general, all of which can help it overcome its shortcomings.

ATM, the main flaw is the lack of reliable recovery, and the annoying ground/fighting weakness. I could see it being able to overcome that however, and seriously, give Empoleon some looove! It's a Penguin for crying out loud!
 
So you're saying that something that has a movepool so wide cannot have multiple functions? Ya ok.
Movepool != ability to be versatile. Unless you're suggesting that Tauros can do many things, which it can't. It's a bull. It eats grass and gets very angry, and that's about it.

That said, I'm voting for Lightningrod Empoleon.
 
Movepool != ability to be versatile. Unless you're suggesting that Tauros can do many things, which it can't. It's a bull. It eats grass and gets very angry, and that's about it.
Okay? Greninja is a frog. It eats bugs and croaks occasionally. I don't get why you're so hung up on this. Literally no-one else cares.
 
It's also a ninja. It's important because flavor is one of the submission criteria. Sure, Protean doesn't conflict flavor, but there is just as much flavor towards it getting it as there is against it. If that's okay with you, I'll start submitting Magic Bounce or Magic Guard on every Psychic or Fairy type that's B- or below.
 
It's also a ninja. It's important because flavor is one of the submission criteria. Sure, Protean doesn't conflict flavor, but there is just as much flavor towards it getting it as there is against it. If that's okay with you, I'll start submitting Magic Bounce or Magic Guard on every Psychic or Fairy type that's B- or below.
That's okay with me, and while you're at our, submit magic bounce "insert Tyranitar"
 
Long time lurker, first time poster. Hi everyone! After carefully weighing all the posts and options, I am going to have to go with...

Goodra + Protean

It's tough, because giving Protean to this 'mon means we won't be in the mood to discuss giving it to more flavorful users/abusers of the ability later, but I think it has the most potential to add to the metagame thanks to that monster move pool, and it has a sufficiently different niche from Greninja that it will open up more team options. Empoleon is a great 'mon and cutting a weakness from it is obviously amazing, but Protean on Goodra is just too good to pass up.
 
Okay, Dry Paratroopa , you can submit anything you want. I really don't give a shit. I'm still going to field all of your suggestions the same way I field anyone else's. As far as flavor goes, it doesn't have to be a picture perfect fit; it just isn't supposed to contradict it like--say--Flash Fire Scizor or Mono-Fairy Umbreon. It doesn't contradict flavor for Goodra to have Protean. This is the last I'm going to hear of this specific matter, and if you continue to push it, know that your point is falling on deaf ears (or--blind eyes).

To everybody in this thread: our goal is to contribute to the metagame by altering certain aspects of it. This is not CAP; flavor is not paramount. I'm not saying flavor has nothing to do with our submissions; I'm saying it is not the primary factor in what we slate. I honestly think it's an argument people use in this thread when it's convenient for them to use it. Look at our archive: we've voted Normal/Ghost Porygon-Z and Magic Guard Moltres into it. Both of them are completely bigger flavor stretches than Protean Goodra. Did people throw massive tantrums in those slates? No--because they wanted those things to win in the first place.

This is where I am going to leave things...if we slate something, know that we have already taken flavor into account. I really am not going to endorse flavor arguments unless enough people are so unconscionably shocked by the flavor.

EDIT: I want to end on a happy note. WELCOME hawk1113 ! I'm glad this thread is what popped your lurk cherry.
 
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Okay, Dry Paratroopa , you can submit anything you want. I really don't give a shit. I'm still going to field all of your suggestions the same way I field anyone else's. As far as flavor goes, it doesn't have to be a picture perfect fit; it just isn't supposed to contradict it like--say--Flash Fire Scizor or Mono-Fairy Umbreon. It doesn't contradict flavor for Goodra to have Protean. This is the last I'm going to hear of this specific matter, and if you continue to push it, know that your point is falling on deaf ears (or--blind eyes).

To everybody in this thread: our goal is to contribute to the metagame by altering certain aspects of it. This is not CAP; flavor is not paramount. I'm not saying flavor has nothing to do with our submissions; I'm saying it is not the primary factor in what we slate. I honestly think it's an argument people use in this thread when it's convenient for them to use it. Look at our archive: we've voted Normal/Ghost Porygon-Z and Magic Guard Moltres into it. Both of them are completely bigger flavor stretches than Protean Goodra. Did people throw massive tantrums in those slates? No--because they wanted those things to win in the first place.

This is where I am going to leave things...if we slate something, know that we have already taken flavor into account. I really am not going to endorse flavor arguments unless enough people are so unconscionably shocked by the flavor.

EDIT: I want to end on a happy note. WELCOME hawk1113 ! I'm glad this thread is what popped your lurk cherry.

...that last part is just too damn dirty xD
 

Patolegend!

Fan of 1000 Arrow 'Slash
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm really buzzing about Lightning Rod Empoleon but maybe in a different way - I see potential in the Agility sub Petaya set, which, as it normally depends on torrent-boosted hydros/scalds, could attract a lot of t-waves from thundurus, and it would be really difficult to revenge. Common scarfers/priority struggle to do much to the Penguin, and at +2 it's coverage is also reasonably powerful (Although Scald would do the same in rain, and hydro a lot more):

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

The only popular scarfers that could cause it problems would be Chomp and Keldeo; the Latis, Mega-Man, Greninja, Raikou, and Magneton all really struggle. Priority wise it's just Breloom and Conk.

Sorry about the late contribution!
 
I'm really buzzing about Lightning Rod Empoleon but maybe in a different way - I see potential in the Agility sub Petaya set, which, as it normally depends on torrent-boosted hydros/scalds, could attract a lot of t-waves from thundurus, and it would be really difficult to revenge. Common scarfers/priority struggle to do much to the Penguin, and at +2 it's coverage is also reasonably powerful (Although Scald would do the same in rain, and hydro a lot more):

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

The only popular scarfers that could cause it problems would be Chomp and Keldeo; the Latis, Mega-Man, Greninja, Raikou, and Magneton all really struggle. Priority wise it's just Breloom and Conk.

Sorry about the late contribution!
That set is actually the main reason I liked this submission. I think it'd be a decent sweeper once you get SpDef roadblocks out of the way, or an alright late-game cleaner. I think I so caught up in the "anti-Rotom" arguments that I completely forgot about that. The main issue with the set is that once you get to +2, you will never get there again. So realistically, that set would be operating at +1 or even unboosted depending on what the switch in is. The main problem with berry-boosters is that if they're your main win condition, you have to play absurdly conservatively with them or else you lose the berry. Additionally, that Empoleon set falls COMPLETELY flat against stall teams, and any team running Chansey. It's very prone to residual damage, and if you can it it with a Leech Seed, it'll have to switch out. A Will-o-Wisp or a Scald burn will pretty much render it useless against anything with reliable recovery. Against a fragile offensive team, I can see that set shining; against defensive or balanced teams, it's going to fall flat. As I have said a number of times, Lightningrod Empoleon is a great submission, but it's very situational.

EDIT: Speaking of Rotom-W, Sub-Petaya Empoleon is actually a bad switch in because it's so afraid of Will o Wisps.
 

Patolegend!

Fan of 1000 Arrow 'Slash
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
That set is actually the main reason I liked this submission. I think it'd be a decent sweeper once you get SpDef roadblocks out of the way, or an alright late-game cleaner. I think I so caught up in the "anti-Rotom" arguments that I completely forgot about that. The main issue with the set is that once you get to +2, you will never get there again. So realistically, that set would be operating at +1 or even unboosted depending on what the switch in is. The main problem with berry-boosters is that if they're your main win condition, you have to play absurdly conservatively with them or else you lose the berry. Additionally, that Empoleon set falls COMPLETELY flat against stall teams, and any team running Chansey. It's very prone to residual damage, and if you can it it with a Leech Seed, it'll have to switch out. A Will-o-Wisp or a Scald burn will pretty much render it useless against anything with reliable recovery. Against a fragile offensive team, I can see that set shining; against defensive or balanced teams, it's going to fall flat. As I have said a number of times, Lightningrod Empoleon is a great submission, but it's very situational.

EDIT: Speaking of Rotom-W, Sub-Petaya Empoleon is actually a bad switch in because it's so afraid of Will o Wisps.
Although, the following is interesting (I know it's a lot of support, but it's not too unfeasible):

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

With knock off:

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 406-478 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 609-717 (94.8 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

In the best of all situations, Chansey couldn't come in. If it gets its Eviolite knocked off, Rain isn't even necessary, and Chansey even gets OHKO'd with a crit; it also struggles to wait out the turns of rain. Sub can be used to protect against scald burns and residuals.

One Penguin to rule them all!
 
At first, when I saw this slate, I was like 'I hate this because you're making me choose between four great ideas and I can only ever have one'.
Since then, I don't know why, but I've decided that I vote Goodra + Protean.
 

silver97

GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
Although, the following is interesting (I know it's a lot of support, but it's not too unfeasible):

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

With knock off:

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 406-478 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 609-717 (94.8 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

In the best of all situations, Chansey couldn't come in. If it gets its Eviolite knocked off, Rain isn't even necessary, and Chansey even gets OHKO'd with a crit; it also struggles to wait out the turns of rain. Sub can be used to protect against scald burns and residuals.

One Penguin to rule them all!
As you said this requires a lot of support, too much. I don't know how you get to +2, maybe with a combination of petaya and lightingrod that is to say the least situational, after that you need rain which you stall out to get your petaya boost and you also need entry hazards to be kept up. Not to mention that with all these condition you won't be able to sweep without an agility boost, it will only wallbreak things. Oh and you're probably gonna miss hpump.
 
Although, the following is interesting (I know it's a lot of support, but it's not too unfeasible):

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

With knock off:

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 406-478 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 609-717 (94.8 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

In the best of all situations, Chansey couldn't come in. If it gets its Eviolite knocked off, Rain isn't even necessary, and Chansey even gets OHKO'd with a crit; it also struggles to wait out the turns of rain. Sub can be used to protect against scald burns and residuals.

One Penguin to rule them all!
I'll try not to copy what the above post says…

That is so incredibly support heavy that it's really not a good example. Additionally, what move are you eliminating for it to run Knock Off? If you eliminate Ice Beam, you can say hello to any defensive grass type.

As you said, they're all 'Best-Case-Scenarios', which you could pretty much apply to any calculation ever and skew it in your favor. Really the only relevant ones are: "Upon switch-in" and "After SR". Let's also not forget that Hydro Pump has 8 PP and shaky accuracy--making it extremely easy to stall out. Let's also-also not forget how--like I said--getting to +2 for Empoleon is kind of unlikely. Berry-boosters aren't reliable for a multitude of reasons. They're really cool, but inconsistent. They're COMPLETELY ruined by Roar and Whirlwind; they're highly situational, and they work best at the end of the game.

I'm really not going to vote for something so situational when I could be voting for something I can use at all points of the game (i.e. Goodra or Klefki).

EDIT: People, during the voting period, please don't bold the name of the Pokemon unless that is your vote. I have seen a few people do this, and it's throwing off the vote counts.
 
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