Pokémon Greninja

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How well does bulky charizard X fair against this thing? I've also realized that gyarados and specially defensive rotom wash do decent against greninja.
 

silver97

GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
How well does bulky charizard X fair against this thing? I've also realized that gyarados and specially defensive rotom wash do decent against greninja.
Specially defensive char-x maybe can check it to some extent but the problem is that you usually run it on stall teams, gyara can switch on it 1 or 2 times but unless it is a bulky variant it will be worn down pretty easily, rotom-w maybe can check it with specially defensive spread, but imo is not worth losing physical bulk because it is really important vs those pokemon rotom aims to check
 

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Specially Defensive DDance Char-X does ok against Greninja as it can muscle past its attacks but it realistically won't be able to switch into its attacks on a consistent basis. So yeah in certain situations you do beat Greninja with it but that's not close to a sure fire counter of sorts.
 
Without packing a Chansey or Blissey on a team, how are you supposed to deal with this Naruto Frog? I've normally just been able to pack an Azumarrill or mono-fairy type on my team and call it a day but now that this thing gets Gunk Shot, it's almost like it can't be stopped without the blobs. Even then, Low Kick is a thing. Thundurus and Klefki have Prankster T-Wave but I'm also thinking Ferrothorn might be the best option to deal with it without having to resort to using a mega. BTW this is for a balanced team since nothing on offense can switch into this thing and hope to live two hits. What do you guys think?
 
Without packing a Chansey or Blissey on a team, how are you supposed to deal with this Naruto Frog? I've normally just been able to pack an Azumarrill or mono-fairy type on my team and call it a day but now that this thing gets Gunk Shot, it's almost like it can't be stopped without the blobs. Even then, Low Kick is a thing. Thundurus and Klefki have Prankster T-Wave but I'm also thinking Ferrothorn might be the best option to deal with it without having to resort to using a mega. BTW this is for a balanced team since nothing on offense can switch into this thing and hope to live two hits. What do you guys think?
Porygon2 can counter anything Greninja has to offer, while Tentacruel and Empoleon are nice checks. Offensively, pretty much anything faster can deal with it or at least force it out like Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny and Talonflame, though you have to be really good with prediction in order for somethng to not die :(.
 
Porygon2 can counter anything Greninja has to offer, while Tentacruel and Empoleon are nice checks. Offensively, pretty much anything faster can deal with it or at least force it out like Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny and Talonflame, though you have to be really good with prediction in order for somethng to not die :(.
Yea I think Tentacruel sounds like a pretty good choice since it also brings some nice utility in Rapid Spin. Empoleon can set up rocks but so many pokemon can do that thanks to the move tutor. Tentacruel also resists Low Kick where as Empoleon is weak to it. Porygon2 is just so.....meh :[

EDIT: FUCK I forgot Greninja gets Extrasensory....
 
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Yea I think Tentacruel sounds like a pretty good choice since it also brings some nice utility in Rapid Spin. Empoleon can set up rocks but so many pokemon can do that thanks to the move tutor. Tentacruel also resists Low Kick where as Empoleon is weak to it. Porygon2 is just so.....meh :[
The problem is that it's all you can do. All your options are:
- Moderately bulky pokemon that resist multiple moves that Greninja often uses, such as Empoleon or Tentacruel.
- REALLY bulky pokemon, with P2 as the best example as it can hit back.
- Give Greninja a taste of its own medicine. Namely, a faster pokemon that can hit hard, which narrows down to priority, Scarfers and other glass cannons.
 
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Suicune and spdef ferrothorn require no support and work fine on offensive teams and can beat greninja. Grass knot and hp fire are among the least popular coverage at the moment. Way way behind ice beam, gunk shot, hydro pump, dark pulse, and extrasensory. MegaGyarados and MegaScizor do well also. And then there's stuff like AV conk, AV kyurem-b, and also there's fast stuff like beedrill, manetric, aerodactyl, loppuny, sceptile, talonflame, and scarfers. I think if you choose a suitable combination of 3 of those pokemon you'll usually have answers to greninja even on offense but you'll have to start saccing later in the game as stuff gets worn down. That's really all you can ask for if you're not willing to drop a chansey or porygon into the team.
 
Suicune and spdef ferrothorn require no support and work fine on offensive teams and can beat greninja. Grass knot and hp fire are among the least popular coverage at the moment. Way way behind ice beam, gunk shot, hydro pump, dark pulse, and extrasensory. MegaGyarados and MegaScizor do well also. And then there's stuff like AV conk, AV kyurem-b, and also there's fast stuff like beedrill, manetric, aerodactyl, loppuny, sceptile, talonflame, and scarfers. I think if you choose a suitable combination of 3 of those pokemon you'll usually have answers to greninja even on offense but you'll have to start saccing later in the game as stuff gets worn down. That's really all you can ask for if you're not willing to drop a chansey or porygon into the team.
3 pokemon just to deal with one threat? nigga please

Just for the sake of my post not getting deleted I'll continue with that's a bit much to cover a single threat when there are dozens more that need to be handled with just 3 slots left on your team.
 

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3 pokemon just to deal with one threat? nigga please

Just for the sake of my post not getting deleted I'll continue with that's a bit much to cover a single threat when there are dozens more that need to be handled with just 3 slots left on your team.


Okay, really though, if someone can honestly say "specially defensive Ferrothorn works well on offensive teams" without a hint of irony, they shouldn't be taken seriously. Last time I checked, SpD Ferro doesn't put much *cough*offensive*cough pressure on.... Anything? So... Why would I use this on an offensive team again?

I mean, offense at least has the faster Mega Evolutions to pick from. That's... Something, at least. I mean, they still have to come in after something's been taken out, but hey, they have something??? I don't know.
 

SketchUp

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How does Scizor do barring HP fire? Bullet Punch?
How about SD Bullet Punch?
Can it survive long enough to get that going?
Steel type helps it resisting pretty much of Greninja's moves but Mega Scizor can't come in on a Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse (and HP Fire obv.) Bullet Punch OHKO's Greninja if it used Ice Beam before, and does around 60% if it used Dark Pulse before. So with 2 rounds of Life Orb damage + a high roll of Bullet Punch + Stealth Rocks damage you have a dead Greninja. It doesn't have any opportunities to set up outside of setting up when Greninja is ice type predicting he will switch out. But even at +2 a Bullet Punch won't KO a Greninja when it has his usual Dark/Water typing
 
3 pokemon just to deal with one threat? nigga please

Just for the sake of my post not getting deleted I'll continue with that's a bit much to cover a single threat when there are dozens more that need to be handled with just 3 slots left on your team.
No. Those pokemon would be on a team mainly for all of the many useful things that they can do against a wide swath of the OU pokemons. Any fast mega and any scarfer isn't put on a team to check greninja. It's put on a team to compete against anything that's also fast, and greninja is just one of many. Likewise something like conkeldurr has dozens of uses and greninja is just one possible opportunity for him to do something. I wouldn't say that you should start building a team based on having greninja checks. I think you should build a team and afterwards check through it to see how weak to greninja you are. It's very likely that you'll have 3 or 4 pokemon that (completely randomly) just happen to check it, and even counter certain sets.
 
Offense can run scarf keldeo as a decent switch in. Although extrasensory is still somewhat common. so be careful with switches. I mean, its not like much can switch into Greninja on other playstyles. I mean hell, it can kill chansey if it really wants too. Physical low kick Greninja manages a 2HKO. This thing's "coverage moves" hit harder than landorus i's coverage moves. Thats incredibly scary. It can basically kill anything barring p2 if it really wants to. Offense is definitely having a terrible time with it, but Balance is still getting it's asskicked. Especially since it's decreased offense pressure often results in pokemon being traded to learn Greninja's moveset. Switching in Tentacruel only to be hit by extrasensory is frustrating. or empoleon to low kick. or ferrothorn to hp fire. The list goes on and on. Its not that Greninja isn't hard to check, its just that it can practically guarentee a kill vs anything but stall everytime it comes in. Mainly because stall can run specialized counters (porygon 2, pretty much) or just Chansey. but even chansey gets worn down easy, and if steath rocks are up and Chansey gets poisoned by the 30% chansey to poison gunk shot, (same as the "100% burn" scald, so...) it can be 2HKO'd iirc. Nobody runs physical and by extention max invest low kick gren, unless they really hate chansey, or know they're playing a stall player i.e. tournaments. And please, don't look me in the eye and tell me you that "it can be checked stop whining" bla bla bla. checking isn't what matters when it come back in again and kill something again and again.

On to using Greninja itself, the purpose of thread, running physical Greninja is very niche, and a great lure for things that hate chansey, and water shuriken priority kills from nowhere can be funny. Physical Greninja is definitely usable, just outclassed by it's other sets. So, only if you really hate chansey. It can still do stuff like OHKO latias with ice punch.
Just Partner standard greninja with a slow voltturn core to give it tons of nice safe switchs like jirachi, defensive landorus t, scizor, and rotom w. Rotom w is definitely the most useful, as it switches into talonflame and other priority users like scizor trying to bullet punch an ice greninja or banded azumarill hitting on non water Gren. Its all about giving Greninja free switches. Like you could honestly put like Goth on that team to trap stuff like Porygon2 and chansey vs stall, and Greninja will pull the weight against offense and then some that you lose by sacrificing a teamslot to the matchup reliant goth. i.e. being stall. Just add a dragon dancer like mega gyara or mega zard x and just clean up the ashes. and then a defogger. like healing wish latias. who also nails scarf keldeo. or better yet calm mind mega latias who sets up on offense's best response to gren. there. done. excuse me while i go ladder.
 
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When in doubt, use Scarf landorus therian on greninja. Seriously though, it's pretty good on u-turns while greninja is still a dark type, and as for when it's ice, stone edge does the job most* of the time. But this isn't a check or counter, just a great damage dealer with the right plays.
 

silver97

GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
When in doubt, use Scarf landorus therian on greninja. Seriously though, it's pretty good on u-turns while greninja is still a dark type, and as for when it's ice, stone edge does the job most* of the time. But this isn't a check or counter, just a great damage dealer with the right plays.
The point when dealing with ninja is not being able to revenge kill it or deal damage to it, that's pretty easy with the ton of fast hitters we have (sceptile, manectric, lopunny, talonflame, priorities, scarfers). The real issue is fuckin being able to not being wrecked every time it has an opportunity to hit, and that's pretty impossible, you can only try to scout the moveset and use your best answer to it
 
To add on to what silver97 said, we know that Ninja has checks, no one can seriously sit here and say there aren't any. The problem lies in getting those checks out in the face of Greninja. In order to get Scarf Lant out, something has to die. That's just the way it is, but even then, you didn't deal with Ninja. You simply put off how quickly it will be killing you.
 
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Okay, really though, if someone can honestly say "specially defensive Ferrothorn works well on offensive teams" without a hint of irony, they shouldn't be taken seriously. Last time I checked, SpD Ferro doesn't put much *cough*offensive*cough pressure on.... Anything? So... Why would I use this on an offensive team again?

I mean, offense at least has the faster Mega Evolutions to pick from. That's... Something, at least. I mean, they still have to come in after something's been taken out, but hey, they have something??? I don't know.
Steel type helps it resisting pretty much of Greninja's moves but Mega Scizor can't come in on a Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse (and HP Fire obv.) Bullet Punch OHKO's Greninja if it used Ice Beam before, and does around 60% if it used Dark Pulse before. So with 2 rounds of Life Orb damage + a high roll of Bullet Punch + Stealth Rocks damage you have a dead Greninja. It doesn't have any opportunities to set up outside of setting up when Greninja is ice type predicting he will switch out. But even at +2 a Bullet Punch won't KO a Greninja when it has his usual Dark/Water typing
Long story short, Greninja is a pain in the ass. I guess AV Goodra might work since it does have offensive presence thanks to its high base power moves but it has to watch out for Ice Beam since it's a 50/50 whether it gets 2HKO'd after SR or not. Oh wait....

0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 216-255 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even the combo of Ice Beam+Gunk Shot 2HKO's after SR everytime. I don't know what to do about Greninja outside of sacrificing my dignity and placing a fat blob on a team and P2 honestly isn't OU worthy imo. If I have to sac something every time just to get my "check" in than...ya'll know.
 
There's something I always wanted to say when it comes down to offensive pokemon that are hard to switch into and have limited checks and even fewer counters. First thing I want to say is that that's pokemon. You can't counter every single pokemon in the game and if your team lacks a counter to a pokemon you have to make risks and sacrifices, which again is part of pokemon(competitive pokemon at least.)

I hear a lot of complains about pokemon that there are no counters and only checks to, but when did checks stop being a viable way to deal with pokemon? If you need to check a pokemon to beat it, then that's what you have to do. And free switches aren't that hard to get into(u-turn,voltswitch) granted a pokemon like greninja doesn't like switching into either of them, having them keeps it at bay.

I've never played 4th gen OU competitively, but I heard that every pokemon can counter every other pokemon and once the first pokemon died, the game ended not to long after. I feel like people want a meta as close to this every time a huge threat comes around. As mentioned before, there are quite a few viable offensive checks to this thing. Use it! There are also decent defensive checks.
 

silver97

GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
There's something I always wanted to say when it comes down to offensive pokemon that are hard to switch into and have limited checks and even fewer counters. First thing I want to say is that that's pokemon. You can't counter every single pokemon in the game and if your team lacks a counter to a pokemon you have to make risks and sacrifices, which again is part of pokemon(competitive pokemon at least.)

I hear a lot of complains about pokemon that there are no counters and only checks to, but when did checks stop being a viable way to deal with pokemon? If you need to check a pokemon to beat it, then that's what you have to do. And free switches aren't that hard to get into(u-turn,voltswitch) granted a pokemon like greninja doesn't like switching into either of them, having them keeps it at bay.

I've never played 4th gen OU competitively, but I heard that every pokemon can counter every other pokemon and once the first pokemon died, the game ended not to long after. I feel like people want a meta as close to this every time a huge threat comes around. As mentioned before, there are quite a few viable offensive checks to this thing. Use it! There are also decent defensive checks.
We don't want to check every pokemon in the meta, we just try to check that fuckin ninja. To do that more or less reliably we are forced to use Teambuilding limitating things (chansey forces you to use stall) or mons that are difficult to fit on a team (empoleon and tentacruel), there are some other decent answers like ferro, Sdef rachi and scizor, maybe AV conk and CM manaphy, But every single mon i nominated still gets wrecked by greninja if it carries the right moves. And rly what are these offensive checks you're talking about, i can't see any except scarf keldeo and the already mentioned conkeldurr.
 
There's something I always wanted to say when it comes down to offensive pokemon that are hard to switch into and have limited checks and even fewer counters. First thing I want to say is that that's pokemon. You can't counter every single pokemon in the game and if your team lacks a counter to a pokemon you have to make risks and sacrifices, which again is part of pokemon(competitive pokemon at least.)

I hear a lot of complains about pokemon that there are no counters and only checks to, but when did checks stop being a viable way to deal with pokemon? If you need to check a pokemon to beat it, then that's what you have to do. And free switches aren't that hard to get into(u-turn,voltswitch) granted a pokemon like greninja doesn't like switching into either of them, having them keeps it at bay.

I've never played 4th gen OU competitively, but I heard that every pokemon can counter every other pokemon and once the first pokemon died, the game ended not to long after. I feel like people want a meta as close to this every time a huge threat comes around. As mentioned before, there are quite a few viable offensive checks to this thing. Use it! There are also decent defensive checks.
See, the thing is, if it stopped at the lack of counters, and dependency on checks to deal with, Ninja would only be a minor threat. However, it also has insane power on its side, 103/95 + LO + STAB is actually pretty hard hitting despite popular belief. That's not all however, it's also fast as all hell, cutting the number of checks to the fairly low number of faster Pokemon in the OU tier. The problem is simple, it has a lack of counters, that is clear, its checks cannot freely switch in for fear of flat out dying, can cover its ass coverage wise, and it's extremely fast, powerful, and can be whatever type it wants to be. In most cases, a Pokemon has at least one downside, be it a multitude of Pokemon hard wall it, or can stall it out, or, it just isn't all that powerful, or it is under too much pressure (something like Rotom-W who can do a lot of things, but slowly gets worn down because of it). Greninja's one and ONLY downfall is, it can't OHKO the entire tier, and instead has to settle with 2HKO'ing.

"You can't counter every single pokemon in the game and if your team lacks a counter to a pokemon you have to make risks and sacrifices. . ."

See, and this is the problem with this statement. . . Although, you are right, you can't counter EVERY pokemon with your team of 6, you can't counter this thing unless you carry p2. That's just the way it is, period, end of discussion. Everything else, literally EVERYTHING else can be 2HKO'd at least. p2 is not exactly the most plug n' play Pokemon around either. Greninja is just the BEST overall Pokemon right now, for the reasons we have constantly stated over and over, there's no denying that unless you're absolutely blind.

EDIT: Also, "Dealing with it" doesn't make it any less broken powerful. Besides, 9 times out of 10 you're losing something in order to "Deal with it", so really, is it worth it? Since it can simply switch out, the answer is no.
 
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As said before, if you want to deal with Greninja offensively, Something has to die in order to get it in. If you use defensive checks, NarutoFrogs hit and run strategy means you can be worn down, or flat out 2HKOed if it runs the right coverage, and you never 100% know what its running.

Offensively speaking, if you only have one check to Greninja, theres nothing stopping it from Picking off the rest of your team one by one, and theres nothing you can do to stop it. you switch in your scarf Lando-T and you are probably gonna get nuked by Ice Beam. However you could very well be losing your win condition if the frog is played semi well.

And whats worse is the frog will ave 5 other, powerful team members who can probably deal with said check easily, meaning its either Gren sweeps you cold cause you fucked up and switched in Lando-T, or he picks your team apart and then Lando-T etc. dies to the other team members you didn't kill.
 
We don't want to check every pokemon in the meta, we just try to check that fuckin ninja. To do that more or less reliably we are forced to use Teambuilding limitating things (chansey forces you to use stall) or mons that are difficult to fit on a team (empoleon and tentacruel), there are some other decent answers like ferro, Sdef rachi and scizor, maybe AV conk and CM manaphy, But every single mon i nominated still gets wrecked by greninja if it carries the right moves. And rly what are these offensive checks you're talking about, i can't see any except scarf keldeo and the already mentioned conkeldurr.
i agree with your point but not your last line.

scarf keldeo, scarf landorous, scarfchomp (most powerful scarfers can fit here), talonflame, mega-pinsir (most powerful priority users can fit here), mega-lopunny, mega-manectric (most powerful pokes that outspeed can fit here), etc etc etc etc

there are plenty of pokes that can outspeed and ko back. that's a check. from what i understand a check doesn't necessarily have to be able to switch in. if it wins a one-on-one situation, then it's a check.
 

silver97

GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
i agree with your point but not your last line.

scarf keldeo, scarf landorous, scarfchomp (most powerful scarfers can fit here), talonflame, mega-pinsir (most powerful priority users can fit here), mega-lopunny, mega-manectric (most powerful pokes that outspeed can fit here), etc etc etc etc

there are plenty of pokes that can outspeed and ko back. that's a check. from what i understand a check doesn't necessarily have to be able to switch in. if it wins a one-on-one situation, then it's a check.
Okay, so in that case checks are completely pointless because you basically have to sacrifice one mon each time you want to bring your check in, just to see ninja running away from it. It's fairly easy saying that priorities scarfers and Faster stuff can "check" it, what's the point of it if you can't even switch on it without sacrificing a mon?
 
i agree with your point but not your last line.

scarf keldeo, scarf landorous, scarfchomp (most powerful scarfers can fit here), talonflame, mega-pinsir (most powerful priority users can fit here), mega-lopunny, mega-manectric (most powerful pokes that outspeed can fit here), etc etc etc etc

there are plenty of pokes that can outspeed and ko back. that's a check. from what i understand a check doesn't necessarily have to be able to switch in. if it wins a one-on-one situation, then it's a check.
Those are either very soft checks or Revenge Killers. A check needs to be able to switch into a mon and beat it most of the time, or are able to switch into most moves. Most of the mons you listed are only able to do this sometimes. Garchomp, for example, can take a Gunk Shot, but any other attack wrecks it, and if it switches into Ice Beam you have a dead Garchomp.
 
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