Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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Mega Altaria is probably one of the best mons in A+.
IMO, the issue is right there. A good A+ Pokemon doesn't automatically make it a candidate for S rank.

I've used M-Altaria and although it is very good, it is a 'jack of all trades' Pokemon. The DD set typically runs adamant and thus is still outsped by 135+ speed and scarfed Pokemon at +1. The roost + 3 attacks is too slow. The bulky DD sub mono attacking set is harder to set up with and faces competition from regular gyarados, which is bulkier, has two attacks and good recovery with leftovers and bounce. Ive always found the bulky support set to be somewhat redudant to Sylveon and although M-Altaria can choose to go physically or specially defensive, I just feel that the opportunity cost for that mega slot is too fierce for M-Altaria to function as a cleric, especially since stall teams will reserve that slot for M-Sableye and probably be using Chansey anyway.

Personally, I've found the DD set to be the most effective and M-Altaria should stay as a solid A+ Pokemon. IMO, S rank is for metagame defining Pokemon that you must have at least 1 check for and M-Metagross, M-Sableye and Landorus-T fit that criteria well. I agree with M-Lopunny moving down since Greninja's ban has increased usage for bulky psychics and fairies and since I was on the fence on whether it should have been S rank before, this definitely makes it A+. The only candidates for S rank in my eyes are Clefable (which I don't think should rise but can see why it could) and maybe Keldeo. But M-Altaria needs to stay A+.
 

Zygarde C- > C

I'm gonna make this short since I have to go soon but ...

Honestly, Zygarde is a really underrated threat. It has a fantastic typing and very good defenses, allowing it to easily set up Coil or Dragon Dance. Even though it has lackluster Attack, its ability to easily set up a DD and survive most priority even after the damage it took while setting up is amazing. With Leftovers, it could possibly set up two Dragon Dances, and with Life Orb it can most likely sweep through with 1 DD. Zygarde also has Extreme Speed, dodging the Talonflame's BB and often (Esp. with rocks up) will pick the KO with ES. However, its bulk really is the biggest selling point, which I think warrants it at least a rank of neutral C.

Just to give you guys an example of its bulk:

+4 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 306-360 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you guys think "oh scarf lando-t is so common it just stops" it actually is not stopped by Lando-t (Just forced into Outrage).

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 151-178 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Landorus-T can't even 2HKO and if he came in on a DD, then 1-2 more DDs and you got the game in the bag.
 

Martin

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His whole post was literally about Latiosite being a Luxury Mega; he never denied it was better in general than Latios. All he was saying is that the opportunity cost is too high because with all the very good Megas these days the times you'd make a team with both Latios and no Mega are very, very few. It's definitely not something you can build around or even consider as an option during teambuilding; in all honesty all of the Megas in the B ranks and possibly most in the C ranks have more use than Mega Latios.
Usage isn't an issue though. There is a whole load of stuff which is ranked high (i.e. B-rank upwards or, to quote the description, "great in the OU metagame") despite residing in the lower tiers, notably as Alomomola, Amoonguss, Magneton, Rhyperior, Mega Houndoom, Cresselia, and Tangrowth. Also, just because something is a "luxury mega", it doesn't constitute it being low-ranked. Let me quote the descriptions for B, C and D ranks:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
A summary of the last sentence in that paragraph would be they have more flaws than they do niches, and as such they are severely outclassed. That is certainly not a description of Mega Latios, as it argubly has more pros than it does cons. That also eliminates the possibility of it being c-rank, as it exchanges Latios' flaws for a mega stone, which effectively balances it with Latios - who is A+. The reason that its mega isn't an A rank Pokemon ATM is because it is, generally speaking, not able to be used due to the limit of one mega evolution. Mega Latios is great in the OU metagame: it is just unfortunate that there is a limit of one mega evolution. If you were to take the limit away, Mega Latios would instantly go to S and Latios would drop. However, that is not the case, so it sees little use.

Also I'm a little confused about why you're bringing up the point that you can't build around it despite the fact that you can't do it with Latios either. Latios is a Pokemon which you used as filler, to fill a Defog role if it is needed, as a fast scarfer which thrives on its great coverage and power or as a dual screener with Memento. You don't build a team around it: you use it to fill the role you need: to build around something else. I often find myself using a Latios - in fact around 60% of my teams feature it for Defog support - and I often build teams which lack mega evolutions. I sweeped through all my teams from XY with Latios on them and saw if there was a mega evolution, and if there wasn't I instantly handed it a Latiosite. Looking through my teams, of which there are 108 (just counted), I have given a grand total of 36 Latios a Latiosite to hold. That says a lot about how hard it is to fit onto a team. Latios is one of the most common Pokemon in the format for a reason, and it really isn't hard to build a team which lacks a mega evolution and utilises Defog Latios.

Conclusion: Mega Latios B- --> somewhere in B on the basis that it is not as hard to fit onto a team as it seems at a glance, and it is overall a better Pokemon than Latios - certainly not C or D rank.
 
Also, I really think Mega Latios should drop to somewhere to C or even D. Like with Blastoise it's not horrible, but you give up the ability to run one of the best Defoggers in the tier for a slightly bulkier All-Out-Attacker version of it. Somebody said before that it's a "luxury" Mega in the sense that if you somehow built a good team that didn't need a Defog Latios AND you have the slot free then you can go for it without any regrets, but the fact is it's kind of a pain to do actively do so and it makes it ridiculously unsplashable. I feel like this huge opportunity cost and the lack of improvement over the original bar some bulk isn't B-Rank worthy.
Leave Mega Latios where it is.
It gets a lot bulk which makes it easier to check thundy and also is a decent mixed attacker allowing it to lure Heatran and destroy it with earthquake.
About the "luxury" thing, you don't have to make a team around a mega in order to be successful, it can give support to other 'mons like Volcarona, Jirachi, Serperior, Clefable, Talonflame which otherwise would be completely shut down by Heatran.
 
Usage isn't an issue though. There is a whole load of stuff which is ranked high (i.e. B-rank upwards or, to quote the description, "great in the OU metagame") despite residing in the lower tiers, notably as Alomomola, Amoonguss, Magneton, Rhyperior, Mega Houndoom, Cresselia, and Tangrowth. Also, just because something is a "luxury mega", it doesn't constitute it being low-ranked. Let me quote the descriptions for B, C and D ranks:

A summary of the last sentence in that paragraph would be they have more flaws than they do niches, and as such they are severely outclassed. That is certainly not a description of Mega Latios, as it argubly has more pros than it does cons. That also eliminates the possibility of it being c-rank, as it exchanges Latios' flaws for a mega stone, which effectively balances it with Latios - who is A+. The reason that its mega isn't an A rank Pokemon ATM is because it is, generally speaking, not able to be used due to the limit of one mega evolution. Mega Latios is great in the OU metagame: it is just unfortunate that there is a limit of one mega evolution. If you were to take the limit away, Mega Latios would instantly go to S and Latios would drop. However, that is not the case, so it sees little use.

Also I'm a little confused about why you're bringing up the point that you can't build around it despite the fact that you can't do it with Latios either. Latios is a Pokemon which you used as filler, to fill a Defog role if it is needed, as a fast scarfer which thrives on its great coverage and power or as a dual screener with Memento. You don't build a team around it: you use it to fill the role you need: to build around something else. I often find myself using a Latios - in fact around 60% of my teams feature it for Defog support - and I often build teams which lack mega evolutions. I sweeped through all my teams from XY with Latios on them and saw if there was a mega evolution, and if there wasn't I instantly handed it a Latiosite. Looking through my teams, of which there are 108 (just counted), I have given a grand total of 36 Latios a Latiosite to hold. That says a lot about how hard it is to fit onto a team. Latios is one of the most common Pokemon in the format for a reason, and it really isn't hard to build a team which lacks a mega evolution and utilises Defog Latios.

Conclusion: Mega Latios B- --> somewhere in B on the basis that it is not as hard to fit onto a team as it seems at a glance, and it is overall a better Pokemon than Latios - certainly not C or D rank.
When I said more use, I meant more useful rather than actual usage stats. I perhaps should have made that more clear; sorry. (it's p ridiculous abomasnow is used more than houndoom tho :U)

Mega Latios may have more pros than cons (additional bulk, no life orb recoil while still having nice power, knock off being weakened) but the quantity of pros should never overshadow the quality. Massive opportunity cost by far outweighs any of those pros because they're so miniscule. Not being able to use a Megas is far more of a liability thank you may think; Latios is very commonly used to support Megas, and with so many Megas new and old being ranked so high like Metagross, Lopunny, Charizard, Pinsir, Altaria, Gyarados etc. - the last four of those loving defog support - while possible to build a team with Latios that lacks a Mega, it is more likely than not to not happen. The fact that it is a possibility, to me, is only a reason to keep it ranked at all and is not a justification to be ranked with the likes of Mega Garchomp, who has a lot of use on Sand Teams, and Mega Tyranitar, who while arguably a luxury Mega is less of this than Latios because it can effectively run a Dragon Dance set due to a notable, significant advantage over base Tyranitar -- a +10 in speed which while I can't remember the list off the top of my head allows it to outspeed a lot of significant Pokémon +1 base T-tar can;t.

I brought up the fact it can't be built around not as a comparison to Latios, but as a comparison to other Megas. To illustrate an example of this, Latias (apologizes in advance; this is going to be so confusing due to Latias being one letter away from Latios >_>). While I have shared my want to move it down, Mega Latias provides a new option that Base Latias didn't have before and can be built around and used in a different role. While circumstances are few and it does require significant support, this gives you a reason to run Latiasite because it provides an option Base Latias didn't have. Mega Latios, on the other hand, provides no new roles that Base Latios didn't have, and hence you have little reason to use your Mega Slot for it compared to the likes of Mega Latias. In addition, Latiosite cannot actually be slapped onto every single Latios even if you have built a team that involves Latios but no Mega -- for instance, certain sets like Scarf rely on the specific item it has. I'd also like to see these Mega Latios teams you're putting forward; I think it'd be interesting to see if they could be better with a different Mega.

Even if Mega Latios doesn't drop I would absolutely oppose it being anywhere higher than B- because in no way can I see it higher or equal viable than things like Mega Beedrill, Victini, Weavile or the rain team members, who all have more uses (useful, not usage stats :U) than Mega Latios does. I'm not saying Mega Latios is in any way a bad Pokémon; it is in just about every way a definite improvement over base Latios. If this was something like Primal Devolution where it could just hold the item and not take up any sort of slot then I would never ask for it to be dropped at all; but the fact that it is such a massive opportunity cost to your team when so many other viable Megas exist is really what doesn't make it as viable as something like Mega Garchomp.
This is, admittedly, a very difficult situation that I doubt we've ever been in because Mega Latios suffers entirely from Opportunity Cost than anything else and hence it is difficult to put it in a rank based on that rank's description. But by comparison and just how crippling that opportunity cost can be, I think C+ is a good rank for it.
 
Looking through my teams, of which there are 108 (just counted), I have given a grand total of 36 Latios a Latiosite to hold. That says a lot about how hard it is to fit onto a team. Latios is one of the most common Pokemon in the format for a reason, and it really isn't hard to build a team which lacks a mega evolution and utilises Defog Latios.

Conclusion: Mega Latios B- --> somewhere in B on the basis that it is not as hard to fit onto a team as it seems at a glance, and it is overall a better Pokemon than Latios - certainly not C or D rank.
The rankings can be pretty subjective and from where I stand I think Mega Latios should be C+ at most, because every team I've built since the beginning of XY has featured a Mega. And every team I will ever build will carry a Mega that is not Latios.

In response to Temporelucis: No, not every team is built around a Mega, but in my opinion, every team should have a Mega.
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I'll just use this post to say people are really overrating Mega Altaria if they are nominating it for S rank. It's good and versatile, but its versatility comes at a cost. Nor does is check any of the S boxes for me: It doesn't overwhelm most builds with its offensive capabilities like Mega Metagross. As good as it is, it is no Mega Sableye in the defensive department. And it isn't slapped on most teams to make them instantly better like Lati@s and Clefable (why aren't these S again?).

Edit: Like Unicorns, I have yet to see one of those, Kurona :/
 
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In response to Temporelucis: No, not every team is built around a Mega, but in my opinion, every team should have a Mega.
I have to disagree with this statement. While like nine times out of ten a team is made better with a Mega, it is still possible to build a team without one and still be effective; and due to a lot of these involving Latios this is why I feel Mega Latios should still be ranked.
 
Have you guys ever considering splitting the S rank into S+, S, and S-? This may have been discussed before, but Mega Altaria would make for a great S- candidate.
It's been brought up many times, but the general consensus is that most of our time would be focused on splitting hairs in the S-Ranks if we did that, which is unproductive since most of the more notable changes occur in the lower ranks since the viability of lower-ranked mons tend to sway more with meta game trends than the S-ranked mons.
 
I agree with an S- rank for Pokémon that are amazing in the OU metagame, but need just one or two Pokes gone to be full S. Clefable would be an excellent S- rank Pokémon, because it has noticable trouble with Megagross, probably the best Pokemon in the tier, but can hold it's own about just about anything else.
 

Martin

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TBH, I don't think that we should have an S- rank. It just confuses things too much to be worth it tbh and, like Sanger said, it is like splitting hairs and the general lack of sway seen within what is S rank.
 

November Blue

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IMO, the issue is right there. A good A+ Pokemon doesn't automatically make it a candidate for S rank.

I've used M-Altaria and although it is very good, it is a 'jack of all trades' Pokemon. The DD set typically runs adamant and thus is still outsped by 135+ speed and scarfed Pokemon at +1. The roost + 3 attacks is too slow. The bulky DD sub mono attacking set is harder to set up with and faces competition from regular gyarados, which is bulkier, has two attacks and good recovery with leftovers and bounce. Ive always found the bulky support set to be somewhat redudant to Sylveon and although M-Altaria can choose to go physically or specially defensive, I just feel that the opportunity cost for that mega slot is too fierce for M-Altaria to function as a cleric, especially since stall teams will reserve that slot for M-Sableye and probably be using Chansey anyway.

Personally, I've found the DD set to be the most effective and M-Altaria should stay as a solid A+ Pokemon. IMO, S rank is for metagame defining Pokemon that you must have at least 1 check for and M-Metagross, M-Sableye and Landorus-T fit that criteria well. I agree with M-Lopunny moving down since Greninja's ban has increased usage for bulky psychics and fairies and since I was on the fence on whether it should have been S rank before, this definitely makes it A+. The only candidates for S rank in my eyes are Clefable (which I don't think should rise but can see why it could) and maybe Keldeo. But M-Altaria needs to stay A+.

Yeah, this is a good point. Mega Altaria isn't Magic Guard/Unaware Calm Mind Stealth Rock Clefable. It's not base 100 Speed 165 Special Attack STAB Psyshock Taunt Mega Gardevoir. It's not burn-immune base 130 Attack Tough Claws DD Flare Blitz Charizard X. It's a jack of all trades, but not as specialized as these other options. This isn't necessarily a bad thing though, because of Altaria's own merits and strengths.

The DD set is a good example. From what I've seen, the best/most popular DD set is the Defensive Dragon Dance one, which has enough bulk to function like the defensive sets, but also a lategame wincon. Pixilate Return is a 130 base power STAB move that has no drawbacks and is much stronger than anything Mega Gyarados can muster, so it's not sacrificing huge amounts of offensive power. It can also run Heal Bell for cleric support AND itself, which is what makes it such a good cleric; it can use Heal Bell itself in these offensive roles (compared to, say, Sylveon), which prevents any loss of momentum, kinda like Mega Lopunny.

The DDD set can struggle with Steel types and Mega Venusaur, like the defensive sets, but the offensive DD set can run Fire Blast to steamroll right over most of them. In most cases, it's able to patch up any weaknesses by modifying its set.

What I'm getting at is that Mega Altaria's jack of all trades nature is a pro, because its separate sets have just enough overlap that it can almost 'do everything.' Like Landorus-T, its offensive sets are still very strong defensively, and its defensive sets have a lot of offensive power. While it might sometimes be outclassed by more specialized options, it itself is unique and not really outclassed by anything. It's adaptable, and 'gives back' to the team enough that it's not a drain on opportunity cost. It has a mile-long list of pros that far outweigh its cons, and makes it a strong S rank contender.

Also, I disagree with your point that 'metagame defining' is an S rank criterion. S rank mons are, more often than not, metagame defining, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. I'd say that Heatran is metagame defining, but it's not S rank.

Have you guys ever considering splitting the S rank into S+, S, and S-? This may have been discussed before, but Mega Altaria would make for a great S- candidate.
I've actually been planning to make a post about this. I won't do it now, but I think that we should seriously consider splitting S into S and S+. Most of the reasoning I've seen against this is kinda arbitrary, IIRC, and it'd give us a more accurate representation of the higher ranks, which is what we should be striving for.
 

Karxrida

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Leave Mega Latios where it is.
It gets a lot bulk which makes it easier to check thundy and also is a decent mixed attacker allowing it to lure Heatran and destroy it with earthquake.
About the "luxury" thing, you don't have to make a team around a mega in order to be successful, it can give support to other 'mons like Volcarona, Jirachi, Serperior, Clefable, Talonflame which otherwise would be completely shut down by Heatran.
Mega Latios is not a Thundy check, or at least not a smart one when since you'll more than likely have to eat a T-Wave when you really like your Speed stat. +2 HP Ice also does a shit ton and only needs a tiny bit of prior damage to be able to OHKO after Rocks

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latios: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hell, it can die to LO Thunderbolt + HP Ice if it eats either one before Mega while Rocks are up.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latios: 79-94 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latios: 143-169 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latios: 86-101 (28.5 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latios: 153-182 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Normal Latios already gives the support you mention while also being able to support other Megas. I see no reason to ever build around Mega Latios outside of being a hipster.
 

AM

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I'm highly against splitting up S rank into sub-categories. If they're not meta-game defining forces to the level of something like M-Gross or M-Sableye, they're simply not S rank plain and simple. The ranks below S are more suitable to define under sub categories, S isn't.
 
Landorus-T needs to be moved down to A+, sure its a dominating force in the metagame etc., but its kind of a result of it checking so much stuff . It doesn't outright win games like the other S rank mons are capable of doing. Like, comparatively it'll probably never get a suspect and if it does, 0 chance its banned.

Also, sub categories are unnecessary.
 
It's been brought up many times, but the general consensus is that most of our time would be focused on splitting hairs in the S-Ranks if we did that, which is unproductive since most of the more notable changes occur in the lower ranks since the viability of lower-ranked mons tend to sway more with meta game trends than the S-ranked mons.
And I get that, but Pokemon like Mega Gyarados and Mega Altaria seem to be a little bit above Pokemon like, say, Gengar, but at the same time don't have the metagame-defining utility of something like Mega Sableye. Mega Sableye, for example, is the king (or queen, whatever) of Stall, being used on a large amount of stall teams. Mega Lopunny is an offensive behemoth, boasting neutral coverage against every single Pokemon in this meta. Mega Metagross is also an offensive behemoth, and has many of the tools needed to make a great offensive mon - first, base 110 is much more of a big deal now. Greninja was a very prominent threat in ORAS OU, as you all remember, and the fact that it had base 122 speed meant that anything below 122 was suspectible to being revenge'd. But now that the ninja is gone, there isn't much else bar scarfers that can revenge kill Meta. Second, it has pretty good attack. I say pretty good because it's usually unboosted...but that's where Meteor Mash comes in. Powerful STAB that can raise attack. And finally, Landorus-T is honestly used on 80% of ladder teams I come across just because it does so many things well. Defensive SR setter, Choice Scarf...well, that's not too many roles, but they're vastly different and they both just work.

Mega Altaria has excellent typing, Pixilate (who doesn't love this ability?), and a movepool consisting of very viable physical and special choices, which allow Altaria to run defensive, physical, special, or even mixed. These are very good qualities, of course, but it suffers from weakness to Bullet Punch - which is sorta common, but might be a moot point considering Landorus-T is weak to Ice Shard. But its biggest flaw is that its stats are painfully average. 110 offenses really are not anything extraordinary, so in the case of Dragon Dance, it needs a few boosts to really get going.

Though irrelevant to OU, Ubers does have S+, S, and S- in its Viability Rankings.
 

Karxrida

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We don't need any rank inflation (I believe that's the term?). If Gyarados and Atlaria aren't S-Rank then they aren't S-Rank, so we don't need an S- Rank when they aren't meta-defining. As a side note, Ubers only has S+ (it doesn't have S-) because P-Don is the most splashable thing in existence since it has like 4-5 sets or something, is that meta-defining, and there's no reason not to use it since there's no Primal limit.
 
Landorus-T needs to be moved down to A+, sure its a dominating force in the metagame etc., but its kind of a result of it checking so much stuff . It doesn't outright win games like the other S rank mons are capable of doing. Like, comparatively it'll probably never get a suspect and if it does, 0 chance its banned.

Also, sub categories are unnecessary.
S Rank Description: "eserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."
If that doesn't describe Lando-T, then nothing does.
Landorus is extremely easy to fit on any team, any style of play, and will always perform its role exceptionally well. So what if it isn't the pokemon you use to 6-0 your opponent. There is nothing that says S rank pokemon have to be win condition sweepers.
 
It kinda surprised me how little people are talking about Mega Altaria's S rank nom after Recreant brought it up 12 pages ago (I went looking for the post on page 20-ish...).

Mega Altaria is probably one of the best mons in A+. It has amazing versatility, a great typing, ability, stat spread, and movepool, and excels at both offensive and defensive roles. It's one of the best Dragon Dancers in OU (and one of the mons that dethroned CharX, a former S rank), and one of the most versatile defensive mons in the tier. It has an immunity and seven resistances, which combined with its huge bulk allows it to handle a large chunk of OU depending on the set.

It's also the bulkiest Fairy in OU (physically):

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%)

Altaria's higher offensive power and elemental resistances make it a better check to mons such as Thundurus and Mega Manectric, for example.

Here's a list of things that Mega Altaria can check or counter in the higher ranks:

Mega Sableye
Mega Lopunny
Charizard X and Y
Heatran
Thundurus
Manectric
Raikou
Mega Gyarados
Keldeo
Latios
Latias
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Tyranitar
Celebi
Mega Heracross

ect.

By running either a slow, bulky, offensive, or speedy set, it has either the speed, power, or bulk needed to handle a huge number of mons in OU. It has plenty of switchin opportunities, can run both EQ and Fire Blast to beat or wear down its checks, and its support movepool is huge. Compared to Clefable it has a higher Speed tier (great for Bisharp), much better offensive presence, and some crucial resistances. Higher Speed makes it a better Heal Bell user, for example.

It doesn't have that many flaws, either. It's great against all team archetypes, and always pulls its weight when I've used it. Its good matchups give it a low opportunity cost, and any shortcomings are mitigated by its sheer usefulness. It's checked by Steel, Poison and Fire types, but very few of these can be called counters, as they can't switch in safely (Heatran, Mega Metagross, ect.).

It fulfills the S rank criteria for the defensive definition, and arguably the support one too. Mega Altaria for S rank.

Although mega altaria has a great typing, stats, and movepool, I just don't see it as s-rank material. Sure it can check/counter the mons you listed, but it can't run fire blast, earthquake, heal bell, frustration, roost, and dragon dance all on the same set. Also, the defensive set is used mostly on stall, but stall teams need counters, not checks. Altaria is definitely a great mon, but I just don't see it on the level of lopunny and metagross.
 

Martin

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Yeah. M-Altaria is definitely amazing, but it suffers from an extreme case of 4MSS and it also suffers from matching the saying "jack of all trades, master of none" far too closely for comfort.
 
Landorus-T needs to be moved down to A+, sure its a dominating force in the metagame etc., but its kind of a result of it checking so much stuff . It doesn't outright win games like the other S rank mons are capable of doing. Like, comparatively it'll probably never get a suspect and if it does, 0 chance its banned.

Also, sub categories are unnecessary.
If Lando-T moves down to A+ every mon in there needs to do it also, you are forgetting that unlike the other S rank mons, he is not a mega, therefore it is much more splashable in different teams, this mon kills, provides momentum,Intimidate and can even screw some pokes(Knock Off), what more could you ask for?
 
Although mega altaria has a great typing, stats, and movepool, I just don't see it as s-rank material. Sure it can check/counter the mons you listed, but it can't run fire blast, earthquake, heal bell, frustration, roost, and dragon dance all on the same set. Also, the defensive set is used mostly on stall, but stall teams need counters, not checks. Altaria is definitely a great mon, but I just don't see it on the level of lopunny and metagross.
To be honest "it cant run 6 attacks" isnt a great point imo. To me altaria chooses its counters to best and team support allows you to get rid of the rest, if you re trying to run a move for each threat it cant beat with pixilate stab you re doing it wrong.
After saying that i do NOT think its S rank as it relies a lot on team support or roost/heal bell to last the whole match. Special set is meh compared to the physical set and tentacruel just doednt care about it (also maybe rise Cruel to B/B+, many people have given arguments on the last pages or so).

Also clefavle to S i say probably yes, cm magic guard set is so good late game and that lil foker can do many jobs, easily the easiest mon to splash on any team beside lanto t (who shouldnt drop either).
 
Something I thought I'd mention here. People who say Mega Altaria is just 'meh', obviously haven't used it to its full potential, or used it at all for that matter. The reason I nominated it for S in the first place was because of its versatility. It has a fair amount of 4MSS, but it makes up for that with everything else. When you see an Altaria in the team preview, you usually don't know what you're going to be up against, unless it is very obvious that the team is designated to help a certain set. When people call the special or mixed set just medicore, it honestly pains me to see. Having so many options on all fronts, including defensive, makes Altaria is a complete monster in nearly every single battle I've used it in. It's a lot like Greninja. There are very, VERY few reliable switch ins. Mainly Poison types like M-Venu and Amonguss, but that's about it, neither of which are very common. Ferro gets nailed by Fire Blast, Heatran by EQ, so on. The all out offensive set with Hyper Voice (Return), EQ, Fire Blast and Roost is something that you really don't want to be facing in battle.
Tl;dr: if you want to call Altaria bad, you have to use it properly first, and then you'll see how powerful it is.
 
Something I thought I'd mention here. People who say Mega Altaria is just 'meh', obviously haven't used it to its full potential, or used it at all for that matter. The reason I nominated it for S in the first place was because of its versatility. It has a fair amount of 4MSS, but it makes up for that with everything else. When you see an Altaria in the team preview, you usually don't know what you're going to be up against, unless it is very obvious that the team is designated to help a certain set. When people call the special or mixed set just medicore, it honestly pains me to see. Having so many options on all fronts, including defensive, makes Altaria is a complete monster in nearly every single battle I've used it in. It's a lot like Greninja. There are very, VERY few reliable switch ins. Mainly Poison types like M-Venu and Amonguss, but that's about it, neither of which are very common. Ferro gets nailed by Fire Blast, Heatran by EQ, so on. The all out offensive set with Hyper Voice (Return), EQ, Fire Blast and Roost is something that you really don't want to be facing in battle.
Tl;dr: if you want to call Altaria bad, you have to use it properly first, and then you'll see how powerful it is.
It still requires a moderate amount of support before it gets going.
Greninja was able to come in straight off the bat and OKHO and 2HKO everything. The reason 4MSS doesn't apply to Greninja is because Greninja was always used as a teams glue, patching up all their weaknesses and paving the way for others to sweep.
I think A+ is the perfect tier for it.
 

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Something I thought I'd mention here. People who say Mega Altaria is just 'meh', obviously haven't used it to its full potential, or used it at all for that matter. The reason I nominated it for S in the first place was because of its versatility. It has a fair amount of 4MSS, but it makes up for that with everything else. When you see an Altaria in the team preview, you usually don't know what you're going to be up against, unless it is very obvious that the team is designated to help a certain set. When people call the special or mixed set just medicore, it honestly pains me to see. Having so many options on all fronts, including defensive, makes Altaria is a complete monster in nearly every single battle I've used it in. It's a lot like Greninja. There are very, VERY few reliable switch ins. Mainly Poison types like M-Venu and Amonguss, but that's about it, neither of which are very common. Ferro gets nailed by Fire Blast, Heatran by EQ, so on. The all out offensive set with Hyper Voice (Return), EQ, Fire Blast and Roost is something that you really don't want to be facing in battle.
Tl;dr: if you want to call Altaria bad, you have to use it properly first, and then you'll see how powerful it is.
To be fair I've used M-Altaria and I've used it a lot so I don't really think that someone who believes that it is A+ for awhile now can fall under that demographic. As for the team preview aspect it's obviously there but it's some what exaggerated and only applies in those scenarios where your team isn't prepared for a particular set with a generic check when it's common sense to prepare for A+ ranked threats or at least have ways to play around it, which isn't as difficult as it sounds with M-Altaria. The switch in aspect is false when the moment it reveals its a set it's safe to assume a couple of variants right off the bat. Amoonguss might not be a common place thing but M-Venusaur definitely is and is used on many builds with much success due to its anti-meta qualities and consistency and right there already handles M-Altaria extremely well. The comparison with Greninja is pushing it when Greninja had STAB on everything due to Protean and as such could break down traditional checks and counters much easily and amassed a much wider pool of versatility. Kyurem-B also doesn't have that many switch ins that are effective at switching in on a consistent basis either so the argument can only go so far when you factor in everything else involved. It's really not a metagame defining force that warrants a placement of S.
 
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