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Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)
- Thread starter Molk
- Start date
- Status
Or does no one use that?
You can't carry two Hidden Powers in one moveset lol
if you mean slash then, it's very rare seeing a serperior with taunt and I think that's a waste of a move slot in comparison with Dragon Pulse, which makes you able to hit dragons like Dragalge very hard or Substitute, which helps you getting free turns on opponent's switches or status moves.
Thats not really a thing that anyone uses, and try not to double post please.
I don't think Mega Pidgeot is underwhelming against prepared teams at all. I actually used Mega Pidgeot for quite a few games during the suspect and it was incredible how easy it was for me to take advantage of Mega Pidgeot's presence against even the most prepared teams. First off, while Mega Pidgeot does have quite a few good switch-ins on purely defensive teams (not really any on offense tho e_e), they are all pretty shaky switch ins when you actually look at it. Aside from the fact that Mega Pidgeot can U-turn out of predicted switch-ins, its only the very Specially Defensive Steel-types and Regirock that are comfortable switching in on Mega Berd (Rhyperior hates HP Grass which is legitimately a threat on Mega Berd). Now I can't really say I have a problem with a stall team being forced to run Zonger / Regi / Other Regi as their SR user to counter a threat, but then you realize that it out-speeds practically the entire unboosted meta game making it incredibly hard to revenge kill so any team that offers any breathing room for Mega Pidgeot must carry one of these Pokemon or else risk being put in a position where Mega Berd easily cleans. I kept seeing these really dumb offense teams with one of these mons on the ladder and they were just so easy to exploit with any set up mon, and frankly were still pretty bad against Mega Pidgeot. I didn't even talk about how hard Mega Pidgeot makes offense to build in this meta so yeah, its pretty obvious to me that Mega Pidgeot is a ban worthy Pokemon.
Please don't take this the wrong way but this post displays an incredible amount of metagame ignorance. First of all, how is Serperior getting to +1 in the first calc? Leaf Storm raises Serperior's Special Attack by two stages in conjunction with Leaf Storm, not one stage. Secondly yes its really nice that Bronzong can wall Serperior's Grass STAB move, but it actually can't switch into a Leaf Storm.
Zong Switches into Leaf Storm (assuming SR is up)
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 62-74 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Bronzong is now at 78-82% health | Serp is at 82% (LO + SR)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (128 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bronzong is now at 37% health after leftovers recovery | Serp is now at 32% after LO recoil (assuming mid rolls on both)
Bronzong dies next turn and you are facing a +2 Serperior with 22% health, of course this is actually the optimal scenario for Bronzong because Serperior could be running Knock Off or Leech Seed to wear down Bronzong and then come back in later and sweep without taking Gyro Ball damage.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 62-74 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Bronzong is now at 78-82% health | Serp is at 82% (LO + SR)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (128 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bronzong is now at 37% health after leftovers recovery | Serp is now at 32% after LO recoil (assuming mid rolls on both)
Bronzong dies next turn and you are facing a +2 Serperior with 22% health, of course this is actually the optimal scenario for Bronzong because Serperior could be running Knock Off or Leech Seed to wear down Bronzong and then come back in later and sweep without taking Gyro Ball damage.
As stated by Expulso the standard set is Leaf Storm / Dragon Pulse / HP Fire / Filler, I don't really see the point of HP Rock unless your team is really weak to Fletch or Moltres, and Dragon Pulse is p much mandatory.
Just Because an inferior set has counters does not make a Pokemon not broken (even if it's best set has counters the Pokemon can still be broken, lol).
Also if you keep double posting you will be infracted, there is an edit button for a reason.
Yes because being at 12% on a Pokemon that slow with no reliable recovery is "coming out on top" .-. Its also pretty safe to assume that Bronzong won't be at 100% health when switching into Leaf Storm the first time where as Serperior will almost certainly be at full health the first time Bronzong switches into it （；￣д￣）
Just gotten reqs, got a few thoughts on the suspects:
M-Pidgeot: I'm not really sure about this one. For a pokemon with 135 spa and a 110 bp spammable stab attack, a surprising amount of stuff checks it (lanturn, eelektross, bronzong to an extent) and most common scarfers, as well as mega sceptile, can outspeed and ko/heavily damage it since it has so little bulk. However, it's an incredible endgame sweeper and the confusion chance makes it even harder to deal with (although I personally only had two or three moments where confusion ended up being a gamechanger).
Serperior: Leaning towards ban here. Although it is outsped and ko'd by several pokemon (mega pidgeot, scarf emboar, scarf moltres) it has far fewer switch ins and can easily sweep given the chance.
Dragalge: Again, leaning towards a ban. With its power and coverage it has a very limited amount of switch ins, while it can switch into a surprising amount of attacks with its bulk and great typing. It kinda forces you to run specific pokemon to stop its insane power, which is unhealthy for the tier imo.
M-Pidgeot: I'm not really sure about this one. For a pokemon with 135 spa and a 110 bp spammable stab attack, a surprising amount of stuff checks it (lanturn, eelektross, bronzong to an extent) and most common scarfers, as well as mega sceptile, can outspeed and ko/heavily damage it since it has so little bulk. However, it's an incredible endgame sweeper and the confusion chance makes it even harder to deal with (although I personally only had two or three moments where confusion ended up being a gamechanger).
Serperior: Leaning towards ban here. Although it is outsped and ko'd by several pokemon (mega pidgeot, scarf emboar, scarf moltres) it has far fewer switch ins and can easily sweep given the chance.
Dragalge: Again, leaning towards a ban. With its power and coverage it has a very limited amount of switch ins, while it can switch into a surprising amount of attacks with its bulk and great typing. It kinda forces you to run specific pokemon to stop its insane power, which is unhealthy for the tier imo.
tehy
Banned deucer.
you got a kill, they got a kill, you got a sac for later or now. zonger might get set up on ofc but that's just a general feature of such a mon really.
which is why I called it a mediocre check. that said, it takes a lot of LO recoil to beat you and gyro ball does 50% minimum (at min speed against 252 SpA, what is 252 hP even), so even if worn down Serp should be at only +2 with about 20% left (8% with rocks). And if youre not worn down you 1v1 itatomicllamas said:
still a mediocre check (i personally run zonger+SpD bat so zonger ends up the secondary check and theoretical HP rock check if i ever run into one of those lol)
I'm very close to getting reqs, and I have been thinking about some of my previous thoughts. Those kinda changed.
Pidgeot is broken as FUCK. This thing may sorta struggle against defensive teams (which can be offset with Work Up) and literally shits on offense. Offense actually can't really switch into it at all, since pretty much any offense is either OHKOed or 2HKOed. As a matter of fact, Work Up is basically Offense's biggest enemy, since Pidgeot is only outsped by TWO Pokemon in RU and can easily OHKO everything after a boost with the spammable Hurricane. There are actually very little things that do manage to switch in (Rhyperior, AV Eelektross) and it just so happens that each switch-in is worn down incredibly easily between Rocks and Hurricane damage. It can only be somewhat hard to beat with priority (Fletch's acro only does about 50-60%) and the only /reliable/ way to beat it with priority is with Ice Shard which is sorta uncommon through 3 Pokemon (glalie, piloswine, and sneasel), and only one of them is seen more than once every 10 teams. BAN.
Dragalge is a bit easier for me to handle when I experiment around it. It's worn down very easily and can be somewhat checked by things such as Bronzong and Registeel, and Specially Defensive Golbat is good enough as a check. It is a nuke and can switch in very easily, yes, but every time it attacks it will be forced out because it can be taken advantage of due to its low Speed and sometimes drop from Draco. It does sorta make sense how it probably can, and usually will get a kill each match, but I've also realized it is ridiculously slow. I've figured I can use any bulky attacker to sorta check it; Choice Band Pangoro always OHKOes after rocks with Knock Off, and it puts it in a position where it either needs to faint or a teammate loses its item. I really think that even though it is a nuke, that it can easily be taken advantage of after it faints a mon, if it faints a mon. It's not broken, just very good. Do Not Ban.
Pidgeot is broken as FUCK. This thing may sorta struggle against defensive teams (which can be offset with Work Up) and literally shits on offense. Offense actually can't really switch into it at all, since pretty much any offense is either OHKOed or 2HKOed. As a matter of fact, Work Up is basically Offense's biggest enemy, since Pidgeot is only outsped by TWO Pokemon in RU and can easily OHKO everything after a boost with the spammable Hurricane. There are actually very little things that do manage to switch in (Rhyperior, AV Eelektross) and it just so happens that each switch-in is worn down incredibly easily between Rocks and Hurricane damage. It can only be somewhat hard to beat with priority (Fletch's acro only does about 50-60%) and the only /reliable/ way to beat it with priority is with Ice Shard which is sorta uncommon through 3 Pokemon (glalie, piloswine, and sneasel), and only one of them is seen more than once every 10 teams. BAN.
Dragalge is a bit easier for me to handle when I experiment around it. It's worn down very easily and can be somewhat checked by things such as Bronzong and Registeel, and Specially Defensive Golbat is good enough as a check. It is a nuke and can switch in very easily, yes, but every time it attacks it will be forced out because it can be taken advantage of due to its low Speed and sometimes drop from Draco. It does sorta make sense how it probably can, and usually will get a kill each match, but I've also realized it is ridiculously slow. I've figured I can use any bulky attacker to sorta check it; Choice Band Pangoro always OHKOes after rocks with Knock Off, and it puts it in a position where it either needs to faint or a teammate loses its item. I really think that even though it is a nuke, that it can easily be taken advantage of after it faints a mon, if it faints a mon. It's not broken, just very good. Do Not Ban.
Just a few thoughts after gettting reqs
Serperior. First off this pokemon isn't broke it has a great niche on some teams but is not game breaking by any means as many people say registeel, bronzong, golbat are great checks to all three of the suspects and serperior, Not to mention this thing gets jack all for coverage outside of 60 BP Hidden power and even then things like doublade can still nom up +2 hits. Honestly why is this poke even on suspect. Do not ban
Mega Bird. I've been on the fence on this one a bit, Mega Bird gets a great speed and Sp. Attack boost and a 110 BP spammable move. Not only can it spam this move but it also has the same chance as scald has to confuse/burn the target. This is a significant factor to consider, which makes it possible for Mega Bird to cheese its way through walls that threaten it. Offensively It can't be beat outside a handful of pokemon/scarfers which makes it a great poke to use alongside sticky web. Not to mention it has a variety of sets such as work up/refresh to get around status or full on special with HP grass for half health rhyperior or U-turn to pivot. This pokemon is to versatile and to offensive leaning towards Ban
Dragalge. While it is similarly offensive to Mega Bird this pokemon can't pivot as easily and safely switch in. If this pokemon were able to switch in and retaliate back to most of the meta I might be for a ban but It can't. This pokemon is also reliant on specs to nab some important K.O's that it can easily be turned into set up foder. After this pokemons checks are gone it can wreck house but it needs team support. So due to those facts I am leaning towards Do not ban
Serperior. First off this pokemon isn't broke it has a great niche on some teams but is not game breaking by any means as many people say registeel, bronzong, golbat are great checks to all three of the suspects and serperior, Not to mention this thing gets jack all for coverage outside of 60 BP Hidden power and even then things like doublade can still nom up +2 hits. Honestly why is this poke even on suspect. Do not ban
Mega Bird. I've been on the fence on this one a bit, Mega Bird gets a great speed and Sp. Attack boost and a 110 BP spammable move. Not only can it spam this move but it also has the same chance as scald has to confuse/burn the target. This is a significant factor to consider, which makes it possible for Mega Bird to cheese its way through walls that threaten it. Offensively It can't be beat outside a handful of pokemon/scarfers which makes it a great poke to use alongside sticky web. Not to mention it has a variety of sets such as work up/refresh to get around status or full on special with HP grass for half health rhyperior or U-turn to pivot. This pokemon is to versatile and to offensive leaning towards Ban
Dragalge. While it is similarly offensive to Mega Bird this pokemon can't pivot as easily and safely switch in. If this pokemon were able to switch in and retaliate back to most of the meta I might be for a ban but It can't. This pokemon is also reliant on specs to nab some important K.O's that it can easily be turned into set up foder. After this pokemons checks are gone it can wreck house but it needs team support. So due to those facts I am leaning towards Do not ban
Small nitpick, but you used Calm max HP Serperior in the Gyro Ball calc. The situation would be more like
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (141 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 144-171 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
So Serperior would more than likely be left with 1/2 LO hit only in such scenario. But otherwise your point still stands.
I have reqs, so I post.
Serperior: I just found that most of the time it wasn't a problem for me to switch out. I mean if I was the one using Serperior, not the opponent was using it. I would bring it in, hit something with a nice 130 Base Power STAB attack. And then the opponent brings in a SpD Bronzong? I just switched out. Most setup sweepers have to hit the right time to set up: Their checks and counters have been weakened or taken out so that they don't waste all that time setting up just to have to switch out. Serperior doesn't have to waste time setting up. You used Leaf Storm and you're at +2 but don't want to be in anymore? Fantastic, switch out. There is no downside to just coming back in later and doing it again. You waste no time. And as for it having no coverage, that's really entirely true. But if I can just use other offensive threats to whittle down that check, a Leaf Storm or a +2 Leaf Storm is often enough to take them out anyways.
Also, why am I seeing these post where people are saying that Mega Pidgeot has a 110 Base Power STAB spammable move, and then say Serperior isn't broken? 130>110. Am I missing something? Like, no joking, what am I missing?
Dragalge: Much easier to handle the more I played, to be completely honest. Choice Specs Dragalge was scary, don't get me wrong. But after its initial burst, it was either: stuck in a Poison-type attack, making my Steel-types happy; stuck in a Dragon-type attack, making my Fairy-types happy; or stuck in Focus Blast, making my Ghost-types happy. And those types are quite common in the metagame, as far as I could see. And Draco Plate was good as well, but simply lacked the same punch as Specs. All of the sets had to switch out really often, leaving it prone to being quickly worn down to entry hazards. After a switch-in or two, it was weak enough to easily be revenged and its horrendous Speed made that easy enough. It's easy to force out at -2 or from its bad Speed, and free turns are crippling.
Pidgeotite: Really good. Most of my teams were weak to it. The best I could see is when I used it myself, which is found to be incredibly easy. I'm not saying it's broken. I actually don't really know if it's broken. I'll have to read some of the arguments some more. But from what I did see, I would likely consider banning it. Hurricane was really easy to use. And prediction wasn't hard at all. Whether that's a comment on the ladder or the Pokemon, I don't know. It's just that I had Hidden Power Grass for Rhyperior switches, which could honestly be seen from a mile away. Heat Wave for Steel-type switches, which also tended to be terribly apparent. But then I had U-turn with a wonderfully fast Speed. Even when I couldn't guess what was coming up, hey, I just U-turn out because M-Pidgeot is really fast. It was a crazy good cleaner. But I still don't know about it. This argument wasn't even good. I just sorta got all rambly. So abstain lol
Serperior: I just found that most of the time it wasn't a problem for me to switch out. I mean if I was the one using Serperior, not the opponent was using it. I would bring it in, hit something with a nice 130 Base Power STAB attack. And then the opponent brings in a SpD Bronzong? I just switched out. Most setup sweepers have to hit the right time to set up: Their checks and counters have been weakened or taken out so that they don't waste all that time setting up just to have to switch out. Serperior doesn't have to waste time setting up. You used Leaf Storm and you're at +2 but don't want to be in anymore? Fantastic, switch out. There is no downside to just coming back in later and doing it again. You waste no time. And as for it having no coverage, that's really entirely true. But if I can just use other offensive threats to whittle down that check, a Leaf Storm or a +2 Leaf Storm is often enough to take them out anyways.
Also, why am I seeing these post where people are saying that Mega Pidgeot has a 110 Base Power STAB spammable move, and then say Serperior isn't broken? 130>110. Am I missing something? Like, no joking, what am I missing?
Dragalge: Much easier to handle the more I played, to be completely honest. Choice Specs Dragalge was scary, don't get me wrong. But after its initial burst, it was either: stuck in a Poison-type attack, making my Steel-types happy; stuck in a Dragon-type attack, making my Fairy-types happy; or stuck in Focus Blast, making my Ghost-types happy. And those types are quite common in the metagame, as far as I could see. And Draco Plate was good as well, but simply lacked the same punch as Specs. All of the sets had to switch out really often, leaving it prone to being quickly worn down to entry hazards. After a switch-in or two, it was weak enough to easily be revenged and its horrendous Speed made that easy enough. It's easy to force out at -2 or from its bad Speed, and free turns are crippling.
Pidgeotite: Really good. Most of my teams were weak to it. The best I could see is when I used it myself, which is found to be incredibly easy. I'm not saying it's broken. I actually don't really know if it's broken. I'll have to read some of the arguments some more. But from what I did see, I would likely consider banning it. Hurricane was really easy to use. And prediction wasn't hard at all. Whether that's a comment on the ladder or the Pokemon, I don't know. It's just that I had Hidden Power Grass for Rhyperior switches, which could honestly be seen from a mile away. Heat Wave for Steel-type switches, which also tended to be terribly apparent. But then I had U-turn with a wonderfully fast Speed. Even when I couldn't guess what was coming up, hey, I just U-turn out because M-Pidgeot is really fast. It was a crazy good cleaner. But I still don't know about it. This argument wasn't even good. I just sorta got all rambly. So abstain lol
You sorta have to account for Serperior's less than average SpA stat at 75 when looking at things, since
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 192-227 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh never mind it actually hits harder unless you're modest bird. How is thing balanced again? The chance at missing sure doesn't make this any more sensible.
On Dragalge, the most threatening I found it was when it wasn't locked in a move. Specs might have the bigger punch, but none of the STAB moves are honestly that spamable since there's a fair few faries and steel types. Stuff like LO and Draco (even black sludge + max spa) though, become way more threatening since the only things that effectively switch in are steel types or resists on predicted moves. Not that they will do a whole lot back to Alge either, since Poison/Dragon isn't a half-bad typing and it already got enough bulk to live weaker neutral hits without too much worry. Yeah it's prone to being worn down, but that's true for a lot of scary mons at this point and it get enough switch in opportunities and hit hard enough that it mostly can make the turns it get matter.
ye whoops, default set in calc is still NU dual screens, lol
PISTOLERO
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Pidgeot: I may in the minority but I actually think that Pidgeot is the worst of the three suspects, if it did not get access to U-Turn I would not think so but U-Turn + Pursuit trapper invalidates a lot of checks. I used Assault Vest Slowking for the better part of the suspect and U-Turn is a pain, I ended up keeping Pangoro in on Mega Pidgeot more than once because I could not afford to give the opponent the momentum. Hidden Power Grass is rather evil and you can snipe Rhyperior that come in, or 1v1 them by 2HKOing them if they go for Stealth Rock, which is not unlikely. I got lucky with confusion from incoming Hurricanes but I saw how a Slowking got confused and hit itself, forcing the user to sacrifice something else to Pidgeot so that Slowking can Regenerator its health away. Work Up + Refresh is rather evil as well, and seeing as Hurricane is the move you spam 75% of the time you don't really miss Heat Wave that much.
Serperior: this is pretty much as bad as Pidgeot, it can Leaf Storm for free on so many things that will be OHKOed if they stay in and proceed to Leaf Storm again or snipe the switchin with a coverage move. You can try and pivot into it, for example by switching Mega Pidgeot in on the first Leaf Storm, but Serperior can just switch out and come back again later. I ended up resorting to Heatproof Bronzong to catch Serperior and Pidgeot by surprise.
Dragalge: Dragalge is not as bad as the other too, but I think its brokenness actually lies in its access to Toxic Spikes. You can easily switch out Specs for Draco or Toxic Plate and, as well as luring in something that thinks Dragalge is choice-locked, can set up Toxic Spikes to further pressure the opposing team. Hidden Power Fire and Scald are just bonus moves that you can use on Steel-types, and Draco Meteor breaks Doublade in half anyway.
Something else to mention is that all of these Pokemon appreciate Dugtrio support, which can easily remove their checks and counters and let them run over the opponent's team. Dugtrio can KO Slowking with Earthquake after Stealth Rock and U-Turn damage, can KO Heatproof Bronzong if you are using it to absorb HP Fire and Heat Wave, and can KO Registeel too. I will be voting to ban all three of these Pokemon from the RU tier as despite how fun it is to use all three, I firmly believe that the tier will be much better with them gone.
Serperior: this is pretty much as bad as Pidgeot, it can Leaf Storm for free on so many things that will be OHKOed if they stay in and proceed to Leaf Storm again or snipe the switchin with a coverage move. You can try and pivot into it, for example by switching Mega Pidgeot in on the first Leaf Storm, but Serperior can just switch out and come back again later. I ended up resorting to Heatproof Bronzong to catch Serperior and Pidgeot by surprise.
Dragalge: Dragalge is not as bad as the other too, but I think its brokenness actually lies in its access to Toxic Spikes. You can easily switch out Specs for Draco or Toxic Plate and, as well as luring in something that thinks Dragalge is choice-locked, can set up Toxic Spikes to further pressure the opposing team. Hidden Power Fire and Scald are just bonus moves that you can use on Steel-types, and Draco Meteor breaks Doublade in half anyway.
Something else to mention is that all of these Pokemon appreciate Dugtrio support, which can easily remove their checks and counters and let them run over the opponent's team. Dugtrio can KO Slowking with Earthquake after Stealth Rock and U-Turn damage, can KO Heatproof Bronzong if you are using it to absorb HP Fire and Heat Wave, and can KO Registeel too. I will be voting to ban all three of these Pokemon from the RU tier as despite how fun it is to use all three, I firmly believe that the tier will be much better with them gone.
I'm sure most of this reasoning has been covered already, but:
Dragalge: Dragalge has very few safe switch ins. The most viable options are Bronzong and Escavalier, both of which are quickly worn down by repeated draco meteors and HP fires. Most other pokemon in the tier are OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by its STABs. Dragalge also has excellent defensive typing and respectable bulk, allowing it to switch in multiple times during a battle with relative ease, and making it difficult to revenge kill. Its low speed is a hindrance, but I think it deserves to be banned as it lacks true counters.
Pidgeotite: Mega Pidgeot's offensive 'counters' (Rhyperior, Lanturn, Eelektross, Kabutops... Stunfisk?) lack reliable recovery, and can be worn down with hazards, repeated hurricanes, hidden power grasses and u-turns. M-Pidgeot's defensive 'counters' (Golbat, Aromatisse, Bronzong, etc.) are overcome by the work up + refresh set. Mega Pidgeot has no counters. 100% accurate hurricanes with 30% confusion rates also decided quite a few suspect ladder games. I think Pidgeotite should be banned.
Serperior: Serperior is countered quite reliably by specially defensive Golbat, and heatproof Bronzong could almost be considered a counter as leftovers heal most of the damage that Serperior can deal to it. However, the ease with which Serperior sets up, coverage provided by grass/fire/dragon, respectable bulk and amazing speed warrant its ban.
Dragalge: Dragalge has very few safe switch ins. The most viable options are Bronzong and Escavalier, both of which are quickly worn down by repeated draco meteors and HP fires. Most other pokemon in the tier are OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by its STABs. Dragalge also has excellent defensive typing and respectable bulk, allowing it to switch in multiple times during a battle with relative ease, and making it difficult to revenge kill. Its low speed is a hindrance, but I think it deserves to be banned as it lacks true counters.
Pidgeotite: Mega Pidgeot's offensive 'counters' (Rhyperior, Lanturn, Eelektross, Kabutops... Stunfisk?) lack reliable recovery, and can be worn down with hazards, repeated hurricanes, hidden power grasses and u-turns. M-Pidgeot's defensive 'counters' (Golbat, Aromatisse, Bronzong, etc.) are overcome by the work up + refresh set. Mega Pidgeot has no counters. 100% accurate hurricanes with 30% confusion rates also decided quite a few suspect ladder games. I think Pidgeotite should be banned.
Serperior: Serperior is countered quite reliably by specially defensive Golbat, and heatproof Bronzong could almost be considered a counter as leftovers heal most of the damage that Serperior can deal to it. However, the ease with which Serperior sets up, coverage provided by grass/fire/dragon, respectable bulk and amazing speed warrant its ban.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
I would say /no ban/ to all three suspects because they all have counters in the tier that are otherwise viable pokemon, in fact special defense heatproof bronzing counters all three!
The confusion rate of hurricane to me is not a bannable offense until the scald burn rate which is much more common and more likely factoring in the 50 50 confusion and more damaging undergoes a suspicious test as well.
The leaf storm power and serperior's speed is not problematic because it still has several counters that have already been mentioned and multiple pokemon can revenge kill.
The Draco meteor power from specs is the strongest aspect of dragale but that has outright immunities which can be dangerous with belly drum slurpuff.
Also despite heavy usage on the ladder which much means hundreds of players at least have used these pokemon nobody has posted a strong suprise set for any of these pokemon thus they are all somewhat one dimensional which means they can be prepared for. There is no fear factor when I switch in amoonguss into serperior because I know it has no way to beat me bar a +2 hp fire ice crit
The confusion rate of hurricane to me is not a bannable offense until the scald burn rate which is much more common and more likely factoring in the 50 50 confusion and more damaging undergoes a suspicious test as well.
The leaf storm power and serperior's speed is not problematic because it still has several counters that have already been mentioned and multiple pokemon can revenge kill.
The Draco meteor power from specs is the strongest aspect of dragale but that has outright immunities which can be dangerous with belly drum slurpuff.
Also despite heavy usage on the ladder which much means hundreds of players at least have used these pokemon nobody has posted a strong suprise set for any of these pokemon thus they are all somewhat one dimensional which means they can be prepared for. There is no fear factor when I switch in amoonguss into serperior because I know it has no way to beat me bar a +2 hp fire ice crit
Now that I've made reqs, I guess I'll post what I think now:
MEGA BIRDE: I definitely believe Mega Birde is banworthy. Mega Pidgeot has a very powerful STAB in Hurricane, which is supported by its Mega-evo Ability: No Guard. 100% accurate STAB Hurricanes coming off of a 135 Special Attack stat can hit the entire Metagame for a big chunk of damage. Offensive teams have no switch-ins, and Pidgeot can run HP Grass to hit Rhyperior for heavy damage. Also, Mega Birde can run a Work Up Refresh set to beat Registeel. Not to mention that defensive teams have very shaky switch-ins that can be haxed by a Hurricane that has 30% to confuse. Overall, Mega Birde can easily overpower the entire Metagame with the proper support, so I vote ban.
SLIPPERY SNAKE: Serperior has been blessed with its Hidden Ability of Contrary. Contrary Leaf Storms can ram through offensive teams and defensive teams alike if they lack surefire checks, since most of its checks can easily be worn down by other team members. A +2 Life Orb Snake can destroy teams with its fairly spammable STAB and its underwhelming yet useful coverage. Ban.
POISONE DRAGONE: Dragalge has also been blessed with its Hidden Ability of Adaptability. Adaptability gives its already stupidly powerful STABS an extra boost of damage, making Dragalge's damage output outrageously high. Draco Meteor / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Hydro Pump hits the entire metagame for a lot of damage, so you'd be forced to have a switch-in, like Registeel or Escavalier, which puts offensive teams at a disadvantage because Dragalge can run right through them. BAN.
MEGA BIRDE: I definitely believe Mega Birde is banworthy. Mega Pidgeot has a very powerful STAB in Hurricane, which is supported by its Mega-evo Ability: No Guard. 100% accurate STAB Hurricanes coming off of a 135 Special Attack stat can hit the entire Metagame for a big chunk of damage. Offensive teams have no switch-ins, and Pidgeot can run HP Grass to hit Rhyperior for heavy damage. Also, Mega Birde can run a Work Up Refresh set to beat Registeel. Not to mention that defensive teams have very shaky switch-ins that can be haxed by a Hurricane that has 30% to confuse. Overall, Mega Birde can easily overpower the entire Metagame with the proper support, so I vote ban.
SLIPPERY SNAKE: Serperior has been blessed with its Hidden Ability of Contrary. Contrary Leaf Storms can ram through offensive teams and defensive teams alike if they lack surefire checks, since most of its checks can easily be worn down by other team members. A +2 Life Orb Snake can destroy teams with its fairly spammable STAB and its underwhelming yet useful coverage. Ban.
POISONE DRAGONE: Dragalge has also been blessed with its Hidden Ability of Adaptability. Adaptability gives its already stupidly powerful STABS an extra boost of damage, making Dragalge's damage output outrageously high. Draco Meteor / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Hydro Pump hits the entire metagame for a lot of damage, so you'd be forced to have a switch-in, like Registeel or Escavalier, which puts offensive teams at a disadvantage because Dragalge can run right through them. BAN.
Double01
Hate it or love it the under dog's on top
If this replay doesnt convince you cress is broke nothing will
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-205259449
ban cress people
I'm the cress user btw....
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-205259449
ban cress people
I'm the cress user btw....
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Lol, I hate cress just as much as the next user...but you literally have nothing to deal with bulky set up sweepers such as cress. I think you need to readjust your team to better handle a top tier threat before you can complain about it. If you had like 4 different cress checks and then got swept thats one thing, but even Spiritomb wasn't a check because of the fact that you don't even have sucker punch.
Looks like I'm going to have to double post.
So I finally made the grind for reqs, even doing 2-5 battles a day still made me end up hating the ladder. Anyways I think I'm going to be in the minority here but I don't think any of the suspects are ban worthy. Like don't get me wrong, all of them are top tier threats and can put in a lot of work, but they just don't seem good enough to the point were they deserve to get banned.
Bird Jesus: This was by far my favorite mon out of the 3 potential suspects, its fast speed and 100% accurate Hurricane make it a huge threat against offensive teams; however, it really struggles to break past defensive teams. Things like Bronzong and Registeel as well as other stuff like specially Defensive Cresselia just hard wall the shit out of it, it takes more than a little bit of luck + some hazards + prior damage to be able to wear down those walls to the point were Bird Jesus can break through. Not to mention on offensive teams there are plenty of checks such as Rhyperior who resists both of the most common coverage moves. From my laddering experience with the mega bird, I've come to the conclusion that it just isn't good enough to be banned.
Dragalge: Tbh I found this mon very underwhelming compared to the way people were saying how broken and great it was. It struggles to get past steel-type counters against stall and against balance / offense its low speed makes it a liability. During my laddering experience I rarely found myself getting a KO with it or it getting a KO against me. Once Dragalge gets below 70-80% it just becomes fodder as most of the power-houses in the tier can do that much damage and KO it. Of course I ran into the odd AV Dragalge which made me end up losing my Mega Pidgeot, but those were few and far between. Its inability to break past defensive checks such as Registeel against more defensive teams just made me wanna not switch it in whatsoever. It does get nice resistances and is a free switch into alomomola, but if you come in on a healthy specially defensive mola it can tank the draco and KO with mirror shot. Idk, may just be me, but like I said found it underwhelming.
Serperior: This Pokemon is the most overhyped thing, it is really quite annoying how hyped it became in the previous thread and how even now everyone is like OMG SERPERIOR IS SO BROKEN, 130BP STAB NASTY PLOT IS SO GOOD I CAN'T DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!! Like seriously? There are sooooo many offensive checks its ridiculous, not to mention defensive teams have answers as well. Everyone is sitting here acting like its this amazing thing that can 6-0 teams, it is just another set up sweeper. Its literally the weakest thing before it gets up a Leaf Storm, sitting at only base 75 it really quite weak to start off with and needs to get up to +4 to be able to do some real damage. Its coverage is terrible and it really just has Dragon Pulse and Hidden Powers to break past walls with. Now I get that it doesn't need other things to be able to break past walls, but at the same time it isn't this amazing all powerful deity. I've yet to see this Pokemon actually do something that literally any other set up sweeper can do, I've only been beaten by it once when I let my checks die which any other setup sweeper saved for late game could of done as well. If you've played with the mon I honestly can't see why you want it banned. There are just so many ways to stop it and it just fails to do anything all the times I've seen it that this I think it shouldn't be banned.
So I finally made the grind for reqs, even doing 2-5 battles a day still made me end up hating the ladder. Anyways I think I'm going to be in the minority here but I don't think any of the suspects are ban worthy. Like don't get me wrong, all of them are top tier threats and can put in a lot of work, but they just don't seem good enough to the point were they deserve to get banned.
Bird Jesus: This was by far my favorite mon out of the 3 potential suspects, its fast speed and 100% accurate Hurricane make it a huge threat against offensive teams; however, it really struggles to break past defensive teams. Things like Bronzong and Registeel as well as other stuff like specially Defensive Cresselia just hard wall the shit out of it, it takes more than a little bit of luck + some hazards + prior damage to be able to wear down those walls to the point were Bird Jesus can break through. Not to mention on offensive teams there are plenty of checks such as Rhyperior who resists both of the most common coverage moves. From my laddering experience with the mega bird, I've come to the conclusion that it just isn't good enough to be banned.
Dragalge: Tbh I found this mon very underwhelming compared to the way people were saying how broken and great it was. It struggles to get past steel-type counters against stall and against balance / offense its low speed makes it a liability. During my laddering experience I rarely found myself getting a KO with it or it getting a KO against me. Once Dragalge gets below 70-80% it just becomes fodder as most of the power-houses in the tier can do that much damage and KO it. Of course I ran into the odd AV Dragalge which made me end up losing my Mega Pidgeot, but those were few and far between. Its inability to break past defensive checks such as Registeel against more defensive teams just made me wanna not switch it in whatsoever. It does get nice resistances and is a free switch into alomomola, but if you come in on a healthy specially defensive mola it can tank the draco and KO with mirror shot. Idk, may just be me, but like I said found it underwhelming.
Serperior: This Pokemon is the most overhyped thing, it is really quite annoying how hyped it became in the previous thread and how even now everyone is like OMG SERPERIOR IS SO BROKEN, 130BP STAB NASTY PLOT IS SO GOOD I CAN'T DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!! Like seriously? There are sooooo many offensive checks its ridiculous, not to mention defensive teams have answers as well. Everyone is sitting here acting like its this amazing thing that can 6-0 teams, it is just another set up sweeper. Its literally the weakest thing before it gets up a Leaf Storm, sitting at only base 75 it really quite weak to start off with and needs to get up to +4 to be able to do some real damage. Its coverage is terrible and it really just has Dragon Pulse and Hidden Powers to break past walls with. Now I get that it doesn't need other things to be able to break past walls, but at the same time it isn't this amazing all powerful deity. I've yet to see this Pokemon actually do something that literally any other set up sweeper can do, I've only been beaten by it once when I let my checks die which any other setup sweeper saved for late game could of done as well. If you've played with the mon I honestly can't see why you want it banned. There are just so many ways to stop it and it just fails to do anything all the times I've seen it that this I think it shouldn't be banned.
Anyway, I just obtained my reqs so I'll write down my more detailed thoughts later. I just thought that PISTORERO made some good points here and I wanted to commentate on them.
Oh yeah, on Cresselia. It is a very annoying pokemon to handle, but it is a rather slow, bulky threat that needs you to have a good match-up for it to really shine. Otherwise it can be rather dead. It's very good as a whole, but not really broken.
I love how you assert its weak before setting up, but it can 2hko a lot of not amazingly bulky resists on the initial switchin, like cobalion
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 126-148 (34.7 - 40.7%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 251-296 (69.1 - 81.5%)
this is an almost guaranteed 2hko after lefties, and is guaranteed with rocks.
One of the biggest issues with serperior to me is the ease with which it can wear down defensive answers to it, which (golbat excluded) have poor recovery. Being able to do a solid 20% damage to your counter while still setting up is really powerful, because it means each time you come in you can click leaf storm, and (especially when paired with other things to wear down registeel et al) after a couple tries can just win. Yes, there are offensive checks to serperior. But this isnt like most set up sweepers, where if youre ballsy you can switch in the revenge killer as it sets up. Leaf storm will do a good chunk of damage to any pokemon that can revenge serperior, other than scarf moltres, and so serperior isn't some useless mon against offense. It won't often sweep, but it can usually pick up a kill when it comes in, which it can do on a fair number of things as it picks off weakened or grass weak mons using its very good base speed.
So no, if you're using offense you won't get 6-0'd by it unless youre retarded, but it can both be a potential win condition and force you to preserve your check to it, while simultaneously being able to revenge kill things... And offense isn't even the matchup it thrives in. It is much better against fat teams. So just because it was only another good mon in offense v offense matchups don't say not to ban it when thats its weakest matchup and its primary strength is wallbreaking.
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