BH Balanced Hackmons

The reason is exactly IO Chansey, although it's not that easy. Long story short, if you have a base attack strictly lower than 76 (Registeel has 75 and that's just perfect) then Chansey never explodes on U-turn from full HP, as long as you use 0 IVs and 0 EVs (nature not required). Then, for as much confusion can be relevant, running minimum attack decreases recoil damage. Also not even defenses have to maximized all the time; for Imposterproof reasons. Like Modest Specs Fridge Kyu-W; running 44 EVs on spdef guarantees the 2HKO on the Imposter. And at last you still want to run minimum speed when using U-turn et similia.
 
Here is a intresting set that I have wanted to try out with the EV cap removed

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Shell Smash
- Power Trip
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs

Standerd Shell Smash that can also be used to take out a opposing sweeper
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Here is a intresting set that I have wanted to try out with the EV cap removed

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Shell Smash
- Power Trip
- Close Combat
- Psychic Fangs

Standerd Shell Smash that can also be used to take out a opposing sweeper
Obvious yet unseen:

Guzzlord @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Power Trip
- Clanging Scales
- V-create
- Shell Smash

Blissey (F) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def
- Boomburst
- Moongeist Beam
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
 
Wow so much to comment on.


...
As I personally lead a BH meta without EV restrictions on Pokemon Online (hey no ad :v)
(which was quick-banned on PO's no EV restriction meta, too, fyi),
E: In PO BH meta, none of WB and any APS is as popular as protean maybe due to a lack of player base...
First, Pokemon Online community management is garbage, i got banned there for 6 months making one forum post.
They censor alot of forum posts and infract users not reflecting their point of view.


This makes me happy. I was a staunch supporter for 510 limit back when it came around because I thought it might increase diversity and make things interesting...
I like to know your thought process of that one.
Full EVs give weaker pokes more stats to work with.

Take this calc for example;
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 276-326 (105.7 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 280-330 (86.4 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I watched a couple battles today and they were more entertaining.
I saw a big increase in normal types, especially Regigigas and Arceus.


I have an experimental and slightly gimmicky move set for minior (core form)....

Minior-Blue @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Sturdy
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Sunsteel Strike
.
M-Aero right ?! Yeah Weakness Policy is viable again.


Thank you very much. This is honestly by far the best thing to have ever happened to Pokémon Showdown!'s version of Balanced Hackmons between
August 2014 and now. It is truly an uplifting feeling... to witness that which was once the best metagame ever on Pokémon Showdown!
rising once again after having descended to and remained in a state of near-unplayability for more than two years. May this tier...
that which was once the face of all Other Metagames... bathe again in its former glory!
Great Speech, i have not mentioned EV limit in my signature, maybe someone wiser than me did.
And how fast it happened.


Even the damage boost of parental bond is nerfed, there is no point to unban it since:
Not only the old strategy of Seismic Shade (Seismic Toss/Night Shade/Super Fang) or automatic serene grace persists,
Parental Bond with Nature's Madness does 75% to anything, and unlike Seismic Shade Fang, the fairy type move has no immunity.
When i started the discussion about unbanning Parenental Bond i actually did not know about Nature Madness.
Same with Shadow Tag, for me both are ok in an offensive metagame, but not in a balanced Metagame.



now with the 252-all-stat-EV allowed, I found I really miss Protean. )
Protean is a fun ability from viewing perspective, It is a prediction based ability, with both offensive and defensive use.
It can beat Spectral Thief (Boomburst), Core Enforcer (Moonblast) and Water Bubble (Seed Flare).



Biggest winner in my opinion is MMY.

It can "take" a V-Create now;
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 372-438 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (87,5% if adamant)

It hits the hardest on Special side and is the 4th fastest base speed. (180-150-145-140)
I can not predict it as it can run so many good sets.
 
I like to know your thought process of that one.
Full EVs give weaker pokes more stats to work with.
If I remember correctly, the thought process was it'd open rooms lop-sided walls to be more effective (Aggron) and, with reduced overall bulk, for Pokemon that had harder time sweeping to be able to step in using their other unique attributes. Mixed attackers would also be hurt, so you'd see more straight physical or straight special attackers instead.

The only thing I was right about was how the tier moved away from "Poison Heal everything."
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
one of my favorite changes to this, is the introduction of "multi purpose" walls. which at first sounds like it promotes stall, when in reality, it helps balanced playstyles, which has ALWAYS been BH's "safe" playstyle to play. giratina is no longer "automatically" dead to any special attack sweeper, unaware walls no longer need to beware of mixed sets, and even shit like audino appriciates the mixed bulk to take on gar and other mons. everything gets a "safety net" promoting LESS creativity=win playstyles, which sounds awful, but bh's creativity level is near infinite, high enough that limiting it only HELPS the meta solidify. for example, mm2 no longer JUST has to run moongeist to beat giratina anymore. as even uninvested, gira can at LEAST tank one moongeist with 252/252, meanwhile mm2 no longer has to fear the random ghost/dark moves walls run as much(spectral, knock off, etc).

something i think people misinterpret is "what this change benefits" which i see people being turned away because it promoted stall...which it does everything BUT. stall never really cared about its "Weaker" stat. and although it likes having a safety net, offense and balanced playstyles appriciates this net WAY more then stall ever could. so if your going to hate the meta due to this change, i understand (i mean i overreacted to the ev restriction, so i can see where your coming from) but honestly, play a few games, and see just how much less the opponents "creativity" wins games. ive always disliked the idea that "the more unexpected sets win" rather then "good teambuilding wins" and the EV limit removal practically prevents this from ever occuring.
 
While I wait for Water Bubble to be banned on the main server, I decided to start thinking about VR for this new unlimited EV meta. Viability has definitely tilted in favor of bulky wallbreakers as well as slow mixed walls, though I do see a fair amount of hyper offensive teams still roaming around. So Here are my unofficial VR, shaped by my experience playing. Feel free to discuss.
s rank: These Pokemon define the BH metagame.
Chansey (impostor, innards out, fur coat)
Rayquaza-mega (triage, aerilate, contrary, Sash smash)

a rank: For Pokemon that can pull a huge amount of weight against the metagame, either by walling or sweeping a wide variety of metagame threats
a+ rank:
Kyogre-primal (poison heal, regen vest)
Groudon-Primal (Stakeout, Tinted Lens, Adaptability)
Mewtwo-Mega Y (Psychic Terrain, Sheer Force, Contrary)
Giratina (Fur Coat, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce)

A rank
Zygarde-complete (Fur coat, Poison Heal, Regenerator)
Mewtwo Mega X (Triage, Adaptability, Tinted Lens, Stakeout)
Registeel (Magic bounce, Prankster, Regen vest, Flash Fire)
Kyurem-White (Refrigerate, Contrary)

a- Rank
Solgaleo (Regen vest, Prankster)
Gengar-mega (Plate smash, Normalize, Illusion)
Regigigas (Poison Heal)
Diancie-mega (Pixilate, Magic Guard)
Kyurem-Black (refrigerate, Skill Link)


b rank: Pokemon at this rank do well with the appropriate team support, or form a highly effective partner with a Pokemon in the A rank.

b+ rank:
Shedinja (Sturdy)
Arceus (Unaware, Simple)
Audino-Mega (unaware, magic bounce)
Garchomp-Mega (adaptability, Poison Heal)
Dialga (Tinted Lens)
Steelix-mega (Prankster, Fur Coat)
Yveltil (Poison Heal, Unaware)

b rank
Metagross-mega (Regen vest, Steelworker)
Slowbro-Mega (Soundproof, Volt Absorb)
Alacazam-Mega (Psychic Surge)
Zekrom (Galvanize)
Greninja-Ash (Sash Smash, Stakeout, Tinted Lens)
Deoxys-S (Mold Breaker)
Lugia (Unaware, Simple)
Aegislash (Prankster, Magic Bounce, Flash Fire)

b- rank
Gyarados-mega (Regen vest, Poison Heal)
Pherramosa (Skill link, Technician)
Magearna (Regen-vest)
Heracross-mega (Triage)

C rank: Pokemon in this rank have a distinct niche in the metagame and can catch unprepared teambuilders off guard, but generally fare worse than those in higher ranks.
Blissy (Innards Out)
Deoxys-A (Psychic Surge)
Sceptile-mega (Contrary)
Tyranitar-mega (Poison Heal, Regen Vest, Simple Smash)
Ho-Oh (Magic Guard)
Kartana (Steelworker, Tinted Lens)
Slaking (Unburden + Belly Drum, Innards Out)
Latios-mega (Contrary)
Khangaskahn-mega (Parental Bond)

d rank: Pokemon in this rank either cannot stand up to most of the metagame's threats but one, or are severely outclassed by a higher-ranked Pokemon except for in highly niche situations
Marshadow (Triage, Sash Smash)
Giratina-O (Z Trick or Treat)
Reshiram (Contrary)
Deoxys-D (Simple, Magic Bounce)
Latias-Mega (Fur Coat)
Guzzlord (Innards Out)


So there you have it. I'm sure that opinions will vary about these vr, and I am interested to hear your thoughts about them.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
I was thinking about this VR for BH too so guess it's my turn to share:

I am glad to be critiqued for any misconceptions but please keep in mind that this is plainly based on my personal opinion and experience.
I do know I have much more stuff to add.


* S+ Rank:



This Chansey literally requires next to no skill to use. As Imposter, it is always an excellent backup member against hard-counters in your team, and you can just send it against RegenVesters to heal back while pivoting. With Choice Scarf, it becomes a premiere revenge killer. As Innards Out, 13 Def lets it die against Registeel's U-turn unless it reduced its IV's. Fur Coat set survives MMX's Banded Close Combat.


* S Rank:



-ate FakeSpeed? Specs Boomburst? Triage? APS? Scarf Contrary? With ridiculous 180 stats on both Atk and SpAtk, this thing is u.n.predictable.


* S- Rank:



This monster can now abuse V-Create all it wants. Banded V-Create with Desolate Land does over 50% to specially defensive Giratina... this is quite irrelevant now because now EV limits are gone, but it still has chance to kill Giratina with 2 Banded weather-boosted V-Create after Stealth Rock and so it is just... the most threatening physical attacker in the metagame.
Some sets exploit 150 SpAtk stat using things like Sheer Force or Storm Drain.




HOW THE F**K IS THIS PIG IN JUST S RANK SuperSkylake? It has almost the same bulk as Chansey with 216 HP stat and I chose this thing as a first hackmon material when S&M came out. This thing survives Adamant Pdon's Banded Ice Hammer TWICE by considerable chance with Fur Coat. RegenVest forms survive MMY's Life Orb Light of Ruin, and Poison Heal + Shift Gear set can be a real threat if unprepared. Honestly, this thing's bulk is so retarded. In my experience, I barely achieved OHKO against this thing with unboosted hits except by Kyurem-W's Specs Refrigerate Boomburst.


* A+ Rank:



Swervy whale is still a threat without Water Bubble. Poison Heal variants are destructive after Quiver Dance boosts and self-improofable with Leech Seed. Even without Water Bubble, it can still do formidable damage with Primordial Sea or other abilities. Also if this thing is a RegenVest with 160 base SpDef, it can wall almost every Special sweepers that lack Psystrike.




Not going to mention how powerful this thing is with APS.
It is one of the best Sheer Force abuser (one of the only 'mons that can OHKO specially defensive Zygarde-C with non-STAB Ice moves), and is a great wallbreaker with Psychic Surge which forces most team to run an appropriate Regenvest check (Solgaleo, Yvetal, etc.)
194 SpAtk can be abused in 9327576 other ways in BH.


* A Rank:



Pretty much the counterpart of MMY as Physical attacker. If it had better movepool options outsides Close Combat...




Dragon slayer. Magic Guard eats Innards Out for breakfast, and Pixilate is always a threat that every team has to prepare for. 160/160 offense is something that cannot afford me not to care anymore.




Solid typing. 80/150/150 defense makes this tank staple-able in any teams. Prankster with Haze is a check to every Power Trip sweepers, and Magic Bounce is another great option.




Poison Heal Regigigas is too underrated. As long as you don't spam Shift Gear too much, it is self-improofable. While it has strongest STAB Facade, immunity to Spectral Thief makes this guy a real threat to unprepared teams. As simple as its typing, it can take FakeSpeed from regular users thanks to its bulk, and it can sometimes wipe out the whole team by itself by using Spore on everyone before they get a chance to retaliate, including the ones who trust in their Focus Sash.
Also motherlove mentioned it can avoid Core Enforcer using Avalanche, which is totally viable option.



* A- Rank:

This baconbird now rose as a great check to MMY without Fairy type coverage. Even if there's something like Light of Ruin, RegenVest forms can take it. Also its STAB Knock Off is really bothering to switch into, and Unburden-Power Trip is just a deadly late-game sweeper.




Another yet good way to shut down Primal Groudon. Fur Coat set is literally impenetrable, and Soundproof sets are bane to most -ate users. It's weakness to ever-so-common U-turn is mediated by its 180 base defense, and it can take Knock Off all it wants by simply holding Slowbronite.
Also now much bulkier by being able to invest specially defensive as well.




Was going to say this guy is a B+ or lower but I changed my mind.
Now walls will have EV on both of their defenses. This means both Giratina and Zygarde-C will take Life Orb Light of Ruin from MMY and Choice Specs Moongeist Beam or Ice Beam from Mega Gengar in most circumstances. But this guy does not care.
With accessibility to strongest STAB Refrigerate Boomburst in the game, it can achieve OHKO on with fat Dragons with Choice Specs or Expert Belt. This thing is significantly more viable this gen, thanks to anti-priority features.


* Blacklist:

Guzzlord - not going to explain
Blissey - outclassed by Chansey as both Imposter and Innards Out
Slaking - viable but essentially the same as Regigigas, I don't wanna make things redundant.
etc.

...

This is my judgment from S to A rank. I will be glad to see your opinions as well.
 
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RNGIsCancer I actually placed Zygarde-C in A rank because, though it's a great mixed wall, it can easily be crippled by surprise Ice-type coverage, and it's prone to being poisoned unless it's Poison Heal, and thus worn down.
 
Following RNGIsCancer kind of post I would like to share my opinion about the Viability Rankings (VR) that I find to better fit the atual meta. Please note that any rate that I will give here is based on my personal experience and opinion that I acquired by playing the meta. Without any further delay, let's start:

S+ Rank:

Chansey is probably the pokémon that requires less skill to use in the actual meta. With Innards Out (that should be banned imo) this thing is literally a suicide bomb, by getting killed by almost every physical move (even U-turn from Registeel has near 80-90% to kill) and murdering the attacker and easilly killing any threatning physical pokémon like Groudon, MMX or -ates for instance. The old Imposter set is still viable and is as good as ever by letting you have a "back up" plan when facing sweepers (Choice Scarf) and putting a lot of pressure in the opposing sweeping performance, or gaining some pivoting momentum when it copies a wall.

S Rank:

Ok, this is probably the best physical attacker we have in the meta alongside with MMX. The Banded StakeOut set is ridiculously strong (+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 519-612 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO i think this explains all),V-Create+Desolante Land set remains strong as ever, Shift Gear can put its already high Attack to insane levels and boosting its Speed letting it outspeed MMY after just 1 Shift Gear. With the rise of Innards Out,Magic Guard Shell Smash version works really good and even its 150 base Sp.Attack can be exploited with a Quiver Dance+Desolate Land set.


MMY is one of the best Special strikers in the metagame, and it has a large variety of sets, making it quite unpredictable. The Psychic Surge set is broken, making it immune to priority (RIP -ates) and turning its Psystrike scarier than ever. Contrary is another great option with Fleur Cannon taking care of Dark types and Overheat caring of Steel-types making it difficult to wall. Sheer Force Life Orb Ice Beam rekts Zygarde and Earth Power rekts Groudon making Sheer Force MMY a force to be considered when teambuilding. After a Shell Smash MMY is almost unstoppable and because of the potential danger that the Psychic Surge set can provide, almost every team must run a check to MMY.



Zygarde, aka Zygod, was already an awesome wall in the limited EV meta. But now, with all 252 EV allowed this thing can really increase its tanking abilities to insane levels. Fur Coat was always a good set (now better with the 252 EV in HP, Def and Sp.Def), Assault Vest is a viable option and Poison Heal Shift Gear can catch opponents off guard and it can turn one of the best sweepers if the opponent is unprepared. Innards Out can be considered to bait Ice Beam MMY or banded Groudon Ice Hammer.


Rayquaza, an absolutely unpredictable mon, from Triage to Contrary, passing through Flare Boost+Tail Glow, mixed Shell Smash or even Choice Specs Boomburst (which is the definition of nuclear weapon in pokémon imo), Choice Band Tinted Lens/Stake Out, Rayquaza is always a great pokémon to be in any BH team, abusing its high 180 attcak and decent speed allowing it to be a great wallbreaker and sweeper.


A+ Rank:


Gengar was always a threat in BH. Its high Speed and Sp.Attack make it a very good special sweeper. Dazzling/QM Shell Smash set is very good turning Gengar immune to priority, and the best set for Gengar in my opinion, the Normalize+Entrainemnt set that is self-imposterproofed and I talk by experience, 80% of the teams are not prepared to face it, what means that if you do not have priority and no one is faster than base 130 is going to be rekt by Entrainment+Normalize. Adaptability Gengar is not too common but is a quite niche set to use, with powerful Sludge Wave and Moongiest Beam to do massive damage.


The reason I chose Kyurem-W for A+ is that it's probably the mon that better fits at the actual meta. With so many Zygardes, Giratinas and Yveltals out there Refrigerate Boomburst is now more useful than ever! Shell Smash Refrigerate Boomburst+Zap Plate Judgment provides an excellent coverage and the Specs Boomburst is incredibly strong and Scarf Contrary is always surpising.


Kyurem Black: preety much the same thing as Kyrem-W but for the physical side. Refrigerate Espeed is a good priority set, Swords Dance Extreme Speed can catch many teams off guard and using coverage moves like Precipice Blades and V-Create can help aginst its checks. And, finally, the best Kyurem set actually: Shell Smash Skill Link with Icicle Spear for STAB (breaks sash MMY, Deoxys, Ray, MMX, etc), Bone Rush for Steel types like Registeel and Aegislash and Fusion Bolt fot Kyogres.


Registeel is a preety solid pokémon, wit good defensive stats and typing, resists Fairy, Ice and Dragon (3 important types in the meta) and is the main response to Power Trip and Shell Smash sweepers with Prankster+Haze and Encore. Magic Bounce+U-turn is a great pivot option.


A Rank:

Audino, one of the best Unaware users of the metagame, good answer against Power Trip and Contrary users, due to its Fairy type making it resist Dark, immune to Draco Meteor and takes neutral damage from the other Contrary boost moves like Superpower, Overheat and Leaf Storm. Audino completely walls any Gengar set that doesn't run Sludge Wave (which is rare). Prankster Haze or Magic Bounce are always good options.


Another unpredictable thing. Good Attack/Sp.Attack, decent Speed Diancie can be physical, special or even mixed attacker. Diancie can run Contrary, Magic Guard (to rekt Innards Out), Sheer Force, Pixilate Specs and they are always viable.



One of the best walls in the meta with 120/120 Defense and Sp.Defense. This thing walls Groudon and MMX with Fur Coat (and even without it tbh). With the 252-all-stat return the Poison Heal set can rule again providing self healing each turm at the same time it makes tina immune to sleep. Magic Bounce is an ability that is always useful in a team and tina is a great option if youre thinking in using any. Giratina is a great Hazard setter with Turboblaze+Stealth Rock+Toxic Spikes if your team is Hazard-based.


A- Rank:

Well, Water Bubble is now gone, so the KOgre got a little weakned, but the Poison Heal set seems to be preety useful yet: it's immune to sleep, self-imposterproofed with Leech Seed and is almost unstoppable at +2. The Fur Coat set can take the best of Kyogre's defensive capabilities and provides a good answer to Groudon. Assault Vest Regenerator is a set that its rising and can be quite handy when facing Kyurem-W, Diancie, Gengar and other special sweepers adding the pivoting move momentum.


The best MMY check, it stops any MMY set that runs no Fairy move with the RegenVest set (it was used to stop the Water Bubble KOgre, but now it's gone). Good hazard cleaner with Rapid Spin, U-turn for pivoting and Knock Off to remove items. Shell Smash+Power Trip set is an option if you want a more offensive Gyarados version and the Poison Heal+Shift Gear+Will o Wisp set provides a self-imposterproofed Gyarados that can cripple physical threats.


Poison Heal with Stab Facade Regigigas can be overwhelmingly strong because Facade does always ridiculous damage even at +0, and with Shift Gear becomes even more dangerous. Knock off and Spore help crippling opposing walls. But other options can be run like Contrary V-Create+Superpower taking advantage of its 160 base attack or Innards Out for suprise. Srappy FakeEspeed+Fibal Gambit can be a gimmickly set to use to bait Gengars and Giratinas to kill them. motherlove already told how to get through Core Enforcer by using Avalanche, which can be a great answer to Zygarde that usually cripples our Poison Heal Set.


Well, this is my S+ to A- Viability Rankings that i could make with my own playing experience and i hope you all enjoyed it. Any suggestions or critics are welcomed.

Thanks for reading :)
 
E4 if something is official it is by definition not fun.

VR
S+ Rank
Shedinja


Shedinja will steal your soul and singlehandedly destroy your entire team along with your will to live. Some people think they don't have to worry about shedinja because they have sunsteel strike, but then shedinja uses imprision and becomes a super saiyan. Remember when people had mold breaker pursuit? They don't anymore. They r just trolling with there wek sun steel strike and all you do is switch out and murder their team with shed later. If you have a team without shed don't complain to me that you lose to much because the obvious way to fix that is to run shed. That is all.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Fully agree; as predicted max evs have let primal ogre reclaim its position as imo the single best and almost uncheckable setup balanced Hackmon that it was banned for in gen 6. Ironically water absorb may be run more after bubble's ban than before

I would like to wait for things to settle and see if unaware mons rise in prominence especially with new tools like spectral, before taking any kind of action but a defensively inclined primal Krogre can dominate almost every mon except itself in bh
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Fully agree,l; as predicted max evs have let primal ogre reclaim its position as imo the single best and almost uncheckable setup balanced Hackmon that it was banned for in gen 6. Ironically water absorb may be run more after bubble's ban than before
Poison Heal meta will take place IMO.

Lost 150 ladder today because my team was totally unprepared against Poison Heal users, including Regigigas and Kyogre.

PH Regigigas is now much harder to stop. While Imposters have additional EVs on defense boosted by Eviolite, they lose regardless because of Spore and Knock Off. This forced me to run FC Giratina with Core Enforcer, which has to stay in until it finally wakes up from RNGsus' Spore sleep turns and gets to use Core Enforcer. Shortly, I had to hand over the momentum.

I thought the RegenVest Kyogre that I had to check Water Bubble could check PH Kyogre as well, but it just shrugs about Spectral Thief, chips me with Leech Seed, and I will eventually have to switch out bc RegenVest can obviously not recover other than by switching. Also, Scald spams will eventually have more than just one party member left with a burn.

...

Speaking of Primal Kyogre, it is more of a threat than Primal Groudon. I clearly understand and have awareness about Primal Groudon's raw power, but it has many checks (most variants cannot improof itself, and Fur Coat completely shuts it down).
 
PH Kyogre is one of the best mons in the metagame right now, no questions asked. I find that AV Solgaleo does a really good job of keeping PH Primal Kyogre in check. I run a set of u-turn/spectral thief/rapid spin/core enforcer, along with an AV and regen. Solgaleo takes about 30% from a +0 Kyogre Scald, and 43-47% from a +1 scald. That lets it either steal its boosts or force it out with core enforcer. The addition of a bulky magic bouncer such as Audino or Dialga that can take its coverage moves allows you to at least force it out and use that momentum to your advantage. Prankster Topsy Turvy from bulky walls like Registeel can easily shut down Primal kyogre, while using a Prankster mon with Sub can let you avoid Scald burns and Leech Seed. Offensively, there are also a number of good viable options to fight against Kyogre. We have Galvanize users, such as Zekrom and even surprise sets such as Kyurem-b, Kyurem-w or Primal Groudon that can simply stall out Psychic Terrain turns, if any are left, then swoop in for the kill. Entrainment Gengar can force Kyogre to switch out if given a free turn, and a few fast Grass-types such as Mega Sceptile can KO with Life Orb-boosted Leaf Storm from full while gaining a Contrary boost. Strong Triage users such as MMX might consider running Horn Leech to beat Kyogre 1 on 1. Primal Kyogre is, in short, a threat that one needs to prepare for, but it doesn't require any specialized checks. Galvanize mons are decent wallbreakers, especially with coverage, plus they are usually able to improof themselves well enough. You also don't need multiple mons to keep Kyogre in check; you simply have to prevent it from getting more than one boost, which you can do with both offensive and defensive mons.
 
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Ok I'm introducing a new check to PH since Primal Kyogre is gaining power; Purify. The move signature move of Pyukumuku, it heals the target of any status it has and then heals the user by 50% of HP. Must be paired with Knock Off, although you are not forced to run it on the same Pokemon, or else PH users gets poisoned again. This move removes the need of Entrainment Natural Cure that required an ability and 2 moves, as Purify requires only the moves. It suffers from predictions since the opponent may switch to heal the status of something else (just like Entrainment), but Magic Bounce users bounce back the move and may never have their status healed (in fact they can heal yours while gaining half HP). At the moment the move causes a "wtf" since Purify is mostly unknown and the best user of the move is Fur Coat Giratina, which is able to stand against Kyogre and Regigigas naturally and is hardly 2HKOed.
 
Poison Heal meta will take place IMO.

Lost 150 ladder today because my team was totally unprepared against Poison Heal users, including Regigigas and Kyogre.

PH Regigigas is now much harder to stop. While Imposters have additional EVs on defense boosted by Eviolite, they lose regardless because of Spore and Knock Off. This forced me to run FC Giratina with Core Enforcer, which has to stay in until it finally wakes up from RNGsus' Spore sleep turns and gets to use Core Enforcer. Shortly, I had to hand over the momentum
Unaware or Prankster Haze Giratina with Goggles works too (yes, Knock off hurts, but Giratina can recover the damage and taunt Regigigas to prevent spore afterwards). Or just Will-O-Wisp it or knock the Toxic Orb off. And Gastro Acid can be considered too, especially on a prankster mon.

Ok I'm introducing a new check to PH since Primal Kyogre is gaining power; Purify. The move signature move of Pyukumuku, it heals the target of any status it has and then heals the user by 50% of HP. Must be paired with Knock Off, although you are not forced to run it on the same Pokemon, or else PH users gets poisoned again. This move removes the need of Entrainment Natural Cure that required an ability and 2 moves, as Purify requires only the moves. It suffers from predictions since the opponent may switch to heal the status of something else (just like Entrainment), but Magic Bounce users bounce back the move and may never have their status healed (in fact they can heal yours while gaining half HP). At the moment the move causes a "wtf" since Purify is mostly unknown and the best user of the move is Fur Coat Giratina, which is able to stand against Kyogre and Regigigas naturally and is hardly 2HKOed.
Purify + Will-O-Wsip work too and it cripples non-PH mons like FakeSpeeders too.
 
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Merciless Assault Vest/Safety Goggles Fusion Bolt Zekrom. For when you absolutely, positively want to kill that PH Kyogre dead right now.

+3 252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Zekrom: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre on a critical hit: 422-498 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fusion Bolt over Bolt Strike for accuracy since you lose if you miss unless Kyo-P isn't boosted. Tricky part is picking AV or Safety Goggles since one lets you deal with a few Q.Dances and one lets you evade the Spore. You can then run moves like Low Kick for PH Gigas and Dragon Hammer for PH Giratina.

Also worth noting is the forgotten Mega-Venusaur checks Pogre nicely. It resists Water/Fairy sets and is immune to both Spore and Leech Seed. Additionally, it can do the old Black Sludge trick to cripple Pogre while getting a Toxic Orb to toss at another Pokemon later without fearing a Toxic status. Run Prankster with Topsy and all you have to do is not switch into an Ice Beam. And if they are running Ice Beam over Moonblast, then the Pogre will likely lose to Pogres that are running Moonblast. Or it could run three attacks, but a big reason of why Pogre is a pain is Spore/Leech Seed give it lots of chances to set-up while making it all but fully imposter proof, especially if not running Water Spout since that risks losing a speed tie and getting crit OHKOed after a few Q.Dances, so it actually loses a bit of threat doing that.


Funny enough though, this is actually the first time we've have P.Ogre without EV limit.
 

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