Fine I will give you that, but it is not meant to be a balanced tier just like BL is not meant to be balanced. They were created specifically as ban lists.
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Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?
- Thread starter Jetx
- Start date
- Status
Yes.
Its too strong for OU, maybe not enough for Ubers, but too much for OU.
Check his moves:
-Tbolt
-Wow
-Whirlwind
-Shadow Ball
-Sacred Fire
-Roost - this can nullify his weakness
-Recover - If you want, but i'd rather Roost
-EQ
-Aerial Ace
-CM+Chage Beam
impressive.
this, plus Pressure+Roost/Recover+106/90/154 Defenses+WoW/Sacred Fire coming from a 130 base stat = OU Pwnage
I'm sorry but simply saying that those tiers were meant to be just ban lists..it contradicts Smogon's main theme (check below in red). I hardly see competitive effort put into those tiers (uber and BL), when really, those metagames have some sort of competitive edge.
Also, the last time checked, BL feels "balanced". The removal of some BL may have helped along (though I feel Donphan should've remained BL but that is just me).
People do understand that. What I don't understand is why do we continue to indirectly contradict Smogon's main theme....
Smogon is a Pokémon website and community specializing in the art of
competitive battling.
The effort put into the Uber tier....I fail to see any forms of "art" in competitive battling since it appears that Smogon professionals are glad to leave that tier very, very chaotic. That's how I currently intrepret your version of the Uber tier. I hope in the near future your (referring to Smogon in general) opinions about the Uber tier adjust a little....
First let me briefly refer to the Yugioh card game rules. The general limit for any card is 3 but there are some cards that are more broken that others so they are either forbidden (can't use), limited (only 1), or semi-limited (up to 2).
One huge point of having a Semi-ban list (I wouldn't necessarily call it a ban but whatever) is limiting which Pokemon can alongside which other Pokemon.
For example, Blissey and Cresselia who exist together in a team, together, is a powerful combination in terms of how many broken combinations they can each pull off as a team.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMWwzkRGaA
Mine and Uutton's idea regarding a Semi-uber tier. It was posted a while ago so please don't take any of our ideas seriously. The certain Pokemon that we listed on the Semi-uber for testing...obviously not all of them are going to work. Some may not really be that broken while others are still too broken. We're just consider other alternatives in which Pokemon can be played competitively.
I don't really see the point in trying to make Ho-oh OU, but when you look at its well placed stats, a Stealth Rock weakness isn't too hindering, especially when you figure most Stealth Rockers will just Explode, thus allowing you to Rapid Spin later.
The biggest issue with this argument is a "generic bulky water" can't do shit back to Ho-oh, just about the only things capable of stopping him are Crocune and CM Slowbro, and the latter will eventually fall to the burn damage.
There is one pokemon that perfectly compliments Ho-oh, and that is Celebi. You thought CeleTran was bad, well now we have something to stop those bulky waters. Then what? Sacred Fire destroys steel types, and bulky grounds rely on moves like Ice Fang to take on Salamence, so they won't be able to do anything back, and they hate the burn.
Then we take a look at all of its support options. Whirlwind/Roar, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost/Recover, Will-o-Wisp, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, Safeguard. In OU, there are soo many viable sets that would just crush the system. Calm Mind / Roost / Earth Power, Reflect / Flamethrower, or maybe Light Screen / Sacred Fire / Thunder Wave / Roost. CBer? No problem, Sacred Fire / Earthquake / filler / filler.
Hmm, Calm Minder can't really be stopped by anything but Blissey and Snorlax, who might risk switching into the CBer. The CBer is stopped by bulky waters, who might be met by a Calm Minder or maybe a Celebi. The special tank, well that would just be annoying. Burn every physical attacker you see, while paralyzing fast special sweepers like Azelf and Gengar who can't do shit back.
This is ridiculous, perhaps we shall be testing Giratina-O form as well?
BTW, proving that a Heracross Stone Edge OHKOs it doesn't prove its OU status, because by those means because Megahorn OHKOs Mewtwo and Darkrai they should be tested as well. Specs Glaceon... when have you fought one of these in OU?
The biggest issue with this argument is a "generic bulky water" can't do shit back to Ho-oh, just about the only things capable of stopping him are Crocune and CM Slowbro, and the latter will eventually fall to the burn damage.
There is one pokemon that perfectly compliments Ho-oh, and that is Celebi. You thought CeleTran was bad, well now we have something to stop those bulky waters. Then what? Sacred Fire destroys steel types, and bulky grounds rely on moves like Ice Fang to take on Salamence, so they won't be able to do anything back, and they hate the burn.
Then we take a look at all of its support options. Whirlwind/Roar, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost/Recover, Will-o-Wisp, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, Safeguard. In OU, there are soo many viable sets that would just crush the system. Calm Mind / Roost / Earth Power, Reflect / Flamethrower, or maybe Light Screen / Sacred Fire / Thunder Wave / Roost. CBer? No problem, Sacred Fire / Earthquake / filler / filler.
Hmm, Calm Minder can't really be stopped by anything but Blissey and Snorlax, who might risk switching into the CBer. The CBer is stopped by bulky waters, who might be met by a Calm Minder or maybe a Celebi. The special tank, well that would just be annoying. Burn every physical attacker you see, while paralyzing fast special sweepers like Azelf and Gengar who can't do shit back.
This is ridiculous, perhaps we shall be testing Giratina-O form as well?
BTW, proving that a Heracross Stone Edge OHKOs it doesn't prove its OU status, because by those means because Megahorn OHKOs Mewtwo and Darkrai they should be tested as well. Specs Glaceon... when have you fought one of these in OU?
If Uber is a banlist, then what's Arceus? No, that is NOT Uber. It is BANNED from the Uber Ladder. Regardless, rather than think in Uber, let's think in terms of our favorite tier: OU. If Ho-Oh gets move down to OU, this game will be building around SR and Physical Rock type. It doesn't matter if it have 4x Rock Weak. Garchomp, with 80 less in BST and a 4x Ice Weak, is good enough to make to Ubers. Do you not think that Ho-Oh will be anything different than overcentralizing?
I agree partially with Mr. Numbers up there. I cannot see Ho-Oh in a support role with having to have at least one other support Pokemon on your team. Donphan seems to be the best suggestion. I daresay most Donphan would carry Stone Edge by then anyway. So you spin away the rocks. However, we do not yet know what will be the most useful Ho-oh. One thing it will be is ridiculously un-predicatable, with Sacred Fire being probably the only predicatable move on every set.
That way you may end up losing a few Pokemon to Ho-oh, or let it get in too far. e.g. putting toxic on something that really doesn't like it. THis would happen be the cost for finding out Ho-Ohs set, never mind actually having to deal with it. The concensus seems to be that even physical rock may not be enough to break it some times. I honestly believe that this may be worth testing, BUT there are waaaay more things actually worth testing in the nearer future. But great OP and you definately didn't come over as a nub :P
That way you may end up losing a few Pokemon to Ho-oh, or let it get in too far. e.g. putting toxic on something that really doesn't like it. THis would happen be the cost for finding out Ho-Ohs set, never mind actually having to deal with it. The concensus seems to be that even physical rock may not be enough to break it some times. I honestly believe that this may be worth testing, BUT there are waaaay more things actually worth testing in the nearer future. But great OP and you definately didn't come over as a nub :P
I see good arguments on both sides, and I'd like to make a couple statements.
First of all, the movepool, yes, is fantastic, but I think that Ho-Oh would suffer 4 moveslot syndrome in that it can do most things, but not all at once.
Second of all, the moves Sacred Fire and Stealth Rock. One strategy I could see being successful is the return of shuffling, Ho-Oh is the last pokemon to want to be shuffled. Swampert with Roar takes neutral from everything but HP Grass, and 4MS appears again. Sacred Fire is incredibly dangerous, and the heavy burns inflicted on a team forced to react to him would be dangerous. I see nothing wrong with banning the move though, we have a precedent for banned moves already! Never heard of Double Team, Minimize, Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, Fissure?
If Ho-Oh were to move down to OU, Stealth Rock couldn't be banned, and honestly, I'd prefer the openings no SR would give than what Ho-Oh would.
I really think though that Ho-Oh would work in a lot of different ways effectively, none of them broken on their own. The list of possiblities and unpredictableness of Ho-Oh is probably one of he best things it has going for it; if you don't know what its running, you could lose a Pokemon easily.
Its not as bad as Garchomp, who you always knew what he was running and always lost someone anyways.
I'm not sure about the centralization argument. Would Ho-Oh be a key threat to every team? Yes. Would metagame central posts change radically? Not really.
How the metagame would react to the threat is just theorymon, and I say we might as well test it, but I'd say Ho-Oh isn't urgent at all.
First of all, the movepool, yes, is fantastic, but I think that Ho-Oh would suffer 4 moveslot syndrome in that it can do most things, but not all at once.
Second of all, the moves Sacred Fire and Stealth Rock. One strategy I could see being successful is the return of shuffling, Ho-Oh is the last pokemon to want to be shuffled. Swampert with Roar takes neutral from everything but HP Grass, and 4MS appears again. Sacred Fire is incredibly dangerous, and the heavy burns inflicted on a team forced to react to him would be dangerous. I see nothing wrong with banning the move though, we have a precedent for banned moves already! Never heard of Double Team, Minimize, Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, Fissure?
If Ho-Oh were to move down to OU, Stealth Rock couldn't be banned, and honestly, I'd prefer the openings no SR would give than what Ho-Oh would.
I really think though that Ho-Oh would work in a lot of different ways effectively, none of them broken on their own. The list of possiblities and unpredictableness of Ho-Oh is probably one of he best things it has going for it; if you don't know what its running, you could lose a Pokemon easily.
Its not as bad as Garchomp, who you always knew what he was running and always lost someone anyways.
I'm not sure about the centralization argument. Would Ho-Oh be a key threat to every team? Yes. Would metagame central posts change radically? Not really.
How the metagame would react to the threat is just theorymon, and I say we might as well test it, but I'd say Ho-Oh isn't urgent at all.
Okay, this is just pretty ridiculous. Everybody is just scared of this pokémon, but in reality just about every team has some way of dealing with it. People are all thinking, "Oh no, with Ho-oh in OU, I would need a bulky Stealth Rock user, or just about anything with Toxic, or a Bulky Water, or a physical Rock type with a Lum Berry, or something fast with a Rock move! I would probably need two of those things to be able to beat it guaranteed!"
... So what?
Some of the people here aren't seeing past their noses; why are there so many posts that say "We would need at least two counters to this thing. That's obviously broken"? Well no, these are just arguments without any back-up whatsoever. You don't need two counters, you need one, where did the idea of needing two counters come from?
Two counters were needed for SD Yachechomp because the first one would always faint (unless you were using Cresselia, or even ScarfCresselia). Ho-oh has base 130 attack, the same as things like Kingler. Its most broken move has only 100 BP, whereas a hell of a lot of pokémon's best have the near unwallable Outrage and its 120 BP. Ho-oh is much more bulky, yes, and yes its STAB move does burn 50% of things when it is used; I'm unbiased enough to admit that is pretty scary, but after a bit of testing this in OU I'm sure most of you will discover there are more scary things out there. Ho-oh can't sweep, really, and it is walled by a lot so people should stop pretending it isn't. Ho-oh isn't broken at all as a sweeper as a lot of things can stop it. Even its mixed set can't even break all the walls out there, unlike MixMence which is only really walled by Cresselia.
The main thing I am finding frustrating about this is that people don't realise that 80% of Ho-oh's counters still counter it no matter what set it runs. Yeah, so Ho-oh can run Giga Drain (it learns that?) to be able to beat Swampert and Rhyperior; I'm guessing the mixed set would drop Ancientpower for this. But now, things like DDSalamence and especially DDNite (entirely because bulky variants wall the hell out of Ho-oh, and offensive versions can take a few hits too - and DDNite often runs Lum Berry so it can set up as Ho-oh hopes for SF-burn-hax and then attack when the Lum is gone) are invited in to set up. I'm not be ultra-specific either, just look around the Tier lists and you'll see quite a few things can wall or set up on SF / EQ / T-bolt / HP Grass. Every time Ho-oh drops one of these moves, something different is suddenly a counter.
Ho-oh can only run four moves at once, and most sets are quite easy to counter. It clearly has no one set that singlehandedly breaks the metagame, and being diverse does not make you broken. See, so many moves have been listed to so far, and lots of damage calcs show Ho-ohs running all sorts of crazy EV spreads. Well, Ho-oh has to run 252 HP / 252 Atk to be able to do any sort of decent damage with Sacred Fire, but then lack of speed creates a wider scope of Stone Edgers to come in and outspeed it. Just like with movepools, you can run some pretty clever spreads but each one will only be able to cause an issue for so many potential counters. As for the 4 move limit, Ho-oh cannot run Sacred Fire / Earthquake / Thunderbolt / Ancientpower / HP Grass / HP Ice / Earth Power / Overheat / Giga Drain / Aerial Ace / Roost / Toxic / Substitute / Protect / Whirlwind / Calm Mind / ... okay, those are just some of the moves that have been listed so far in this thread. Go ahead and pick your Ho-oh, pick your 4 chosen moves - each time, there are still going to be many counters out there.
People use things like Scarf Moltres and Yanmega because every time they bring one in and it can always cause harm. Yanmega gets Hynosis to disable its potential counters just as Ho-oh gets Sacred Fire's even more risky burn rate. Moltres runs Will-o-wisp and U-turn so it can do something to its counters too. Those are the only two 4x SR weak pokémon frequently used. As somebody mentioned earlier in this thread, and I think they had a very good point, people aren't going to use something that requires as much support as Ho-oh does in all their teams if there will always be few things that can still stop it. In order to get a good win rate, you would need to practically center your team around it to deal with all the things that could potentially beat it, and even then your team would be no better than some of Smogon's other well-created greats.
Also, I'd appreciate if you all stopped putting words in my mouth. I have said far more than just "bulky waters can beat it" and "Stealth Rock is a great way to beat it", there are many ways to beat it. I would be willing to create a list of all the pokémon that could potentially win against Ho-oh if people still aren't convinced enough that it is at least a Suspect, though I have other things to do with my time and I don't think my arguments need any more justification than they already have. You don't need something with Stone Edge to counter Ho-oh at all... Here's a fun fact: Ho-oh needs to run 252 HP EVs and about 200 Defence EVs to even have a chance of surviving a Jolly Pikachu's Volt Tackle, and even then the odds are against you. And it needs to run a Careful nature, 252 HP and upwards of 60 SpD EVs to have a chance of surviving two of its Thunderbolts. That could be pretty embaressing if you're one of those people who would seriously consider Ho-oh as your special tank over Snorlax; even Pikachu can OHKO you after Stealth Rock, and do the same even without SR if it somehow pulled off a Nasty Plot. Pikachu may speed tie with it, but no remotely successful Ho-oh set would run a speed boosting nature and 252 speed EVs.
And here's a comment to all the people who are saying things like "Yeah, a lot of things can revenge kill a Ho-oh, but they can't switch in without being burned by Sacred Fire or OHKOd by it, etc.": Ho-oh is not going to be firing off Sacred Fire 24/7. It's fairly easy to tell that when a Ho-oh has just come out on something it can wall and lost 50% to Stealth Rock, it's probably going to use Roost and try to get it back. Aerodactyl is still a fine counter to it, you just switch it in whenever you predict a Roost or an Earthquake. Pikachu might even be able to take a Thunderbolt.
Ho-oh isn't impenetrable on the special side. The Offensive 0HP Ho-ohs are 2HKOd by a Raikou's Thunderbolt. The wall variants are 2HKOd as well by it if it has Specs or a Calm Mind. Raikou also isn't hugely bothered by Sacred Fire or its Burn and can waste 2 of its PP by switching into it. Granted, Ho-oh could use Earthquake before it would fall, but remember what I said earlier about how things like Aerodactyl would love to switch in?
I'm not saying you need Raikou or Pikachu to harm Ho-oh, they are merely two of the many examples, so don't make a fuss of the fact that they do not count as counters.
Time to move onto quotes, I think.
Scizor could play mindgames with Ho-oh. Common scenario: SR is up and Scizor is out. Switch into your Rapid Spinner and let it set up, or switch in Ho-oh and lose 50% health. Zapdos is still the better Scizor counter, it has roughly the same defences and the same resistances except it takes far less from SR.
+2 Life Orb Technician Quick Attack does 49.5% - 58.41% to 252 HP Ho-oh. See, even the mighty Ho-oh doesn't wall it.
Okay this took hours to write up and any other posts that have come up since then I'm not going to talk about yet. But really, this needs testing. I have a counter-argument for nearly all everyone else's arguments. This can't be solved with theorymon. The only way I could get you guys to listen would be to give it a test so you could see how overrated it is yourselves.
edit: Darth Meanie you speak a lot of sense and people need to realise these things. [though I think banning Sacred Fire is bad as it really isn't as broken as everyone thinks, and I'd hate to have this left untested whilst Skymin is banned to Uber despite the potential new counter]
... So what?
Some of the people here aren't seeing past their noses; why are there so many posts that say "We would need at least two counters to this thing. That's obviously broken"? Well no, these are just arguments without any back-up whatsoever. You don't need two counters, you need one, where did the idea of needing two counters come from?
Two counters were needed for SD Yachechomp because the first one would always faint (unless you were using Cresselia, or even ScarfCresselia). Ho-oh has base 130 attack, the same as things like Kingler. Its most broken move has only 100 BP, whereas a hell of a lot of pokémon's best have the near unwallable Outrage and its 120 BP. Ho-oh is much more bulky, yes, and yes its STAB move does burn 50% of things when it is used; I'm unbiased enough to admit that is pretty scary, but after a bit of testing this in OU I'm sure most of you will discover there are more scary things out there. Ho-oh can't sweep, really, and it is walled by a lot so people should stop pretending it isn't. Ho-oh isn't broken at all as a sweeper as a lot of things can stop it. Even its mixed set can't even break all the walls out there, unlike MixMence which is only really walled by Cresselia.
The main thing I am finding frustrating about this is that people don't realise that 80% of Ho-oh's counters still counter it no matter what set it runs. Yeah, so Ho-oh can run Giga Drain (it learns that?) to be able to beat Swampert and Rhyperior; I'm guessing the mixed set would drop Ancientpower for this. But now, things like DDSalamence and especially DDNite (entirely because bulky variants wall the hell out of Ho-oh, and offensive versions can take a few hits too - and DDNite often runs Lum Berry so it can set up as Ho-oh hopes for SF-burn-hax and then attack when the Lum is gone) are invited in to set up. I'm not be ultra-specific either, just look around the Tier lists and you'll see quite a few things can wall or set up on SF / EQ / T-bolt / HP Grass. Every time Ho-oh drops one of these moves, something different is suddenly a counter.
Ho-oh can only run four moves at once, and most sets are quite easy to counter. It clearly has no one set that singlehandedly breaks the metagame, and being diverse does not make you broken. See, so many moves have been listed to so far, and lots of damage calcs show Ho-ohs running all sorts of crazy EV spreads. Well, Ho-oh has to run 252 HP / 252 Atk to be able to do any sort of decent damage with Sacred Fire, but then lack of speed creates a wider scope of Stone Edgers to come in and outspeed it. Just like with movepools, you can run some pretty clever spreads but each one will only be able to cause an issue for so many potential counters. As for the 4 move limit, Ho-oh cannot run Sacred Fire / Earthquake / Thunderbolt / Ancientpower / HP Grass / HP Ice / Earth Power / Overheat / Giga Drain / Aerial Ace / Roost / Toxic / Substitute / Protect / Whirlwind / Calm Mind / ... okay, those are just some of the moves that have been listed so far in this thread. Go ahead and pick your Ho-oh, pick your 4 chosen moves - each time, there are still going to be many counters out there.
People use things like Scarf Moltres and Yanmega because every time they bring one in and it can always cause harm. Yanmega gets Hynosis to disable its potential counters just as Ho-oh gets Sacred Fire's even more risky burn rate. Moltres runs Will-o-wisp and U-turn so it can do something to its counters too. Those are the only two 4x SR weak pokémon frequently used. As somebody mentioned earlier in this thread, and I think they had a very good point, people aren't going to use something that requires as much support as Ho-oh does in all their teams if there will always be few things that can still stop it. In order to get a good win rate, you would need to practically center your team around it to deal with all the things that could potentially beat it, and even then your team would be no better than some of Smogon's other well-created greats.
Also, I'd appreciate if you all stopped putting words in my mouth. I have said far more than just "bulky waters can beat it" and "Stealth Rock is a great way to beat it", there are many ways to beat it. I would be willing to create a list of all the pokémon that could potentially win against Ho-oh if people still aren't convinced enough that it is at least a Suspect, though I have other things to do with my time and I don't think my arguments need any more justification than they already have. You don't need something with Stone Edge to counter Ho-oh at all... Here's a fun fact: Ho-oh needs to run 252 HP EVs and about 200 Defence EVs to even have a chance of surviving a Jolly Pikachu's Volt Tackle, and even then the odds are against you. And it needs to run a Careful nature, 252 HP and upwards of 60 SpD EVs to have a chance of surviving two of its Thunderbolts. That could be pretty embaressing if you're one of those people who would seriously consider Ho-oh as your special tank over Snorlax; even Pikachu can OHKO you after Stealth Rock, and do the same even without SR if it somehow pulled off a Nasty Plot. Pikachu may speed tie with it, but no remotely successful Ho-oh set would run a speed boosting nature and 252 speed EVs.
And here's a comment to all the people who are saying things like "Yeah, a lot of things can revenge kill a Ho-oh, but they can't switch in without being burned by Sacred Fire or OHKOd by it, etc.": Ho-oh is not going to be firing off Sacred Fire 24/7. It's fairly easy to tell that when a Ho-oh has just come out on something it can wall and lost 50% to Stealth Rock, it's probably going to use Roost and try to get it back. Aerodactyl is still a fine counter to it, you just switch it in whenever you predict a Roost or an Earthquake. Pikachu might even be able to take a Thunderbolt.
Ho-oh isn't impenetrable on the special side. The Offensive 0HP Ho-ohs are 2HKOd by a Raikou's Thunderbolt. The wall variants are 2HKOd as well by it if it has Specs or a Calm Mind. Raikou also isn't hugely bothered by Sacred Fire or its Burn and can waste 2 of its PP by switching into it. Granted, Ho-oh could use Earthquake before it would fall, but remember what I said earlier about how things like Aerodactyl would love to switch in?
I'm not saying you need Raikou or Pikachu to harm Ho-oh, they are merely two of the many examples, so don't make a fuss of the fact that they do not count as counters.
Time to move onto quotes, I think.
Let's talk about Rhyperior for a moment. An Adamant 252 Attack one can still take a hit from just about every Ho-oh, but it can still switch in on Sacred Fire. A burned Rhyperior does 100.48% - 118.03% to 252 HP Ho-oh. Even if it Roosts, it's still 2HKOd, and this is with Rhyperior doing the amount of damage it would do if the hit were neutral. Impish 0 Atk EV Rhyperior can still OHKO 0 HP ones when burned, too, though I expect that it might run Lum Berry to prevent that in the place. Tyranitar can beat it too, though it takes a fair bit from EQ; the sandstorm passive damage actually makes its Stone Edges effectively more powerful. If it runs Protect and Roost, what two other moves could possibly combine together to make this Ho-oh too good for OU?
I've covered how its stats are undermined by poor typing and limited moves numerous times now. And it isn't Salamence, Salamence gets STAB on Dragon moves and it can beat things up with Brick Break too. An intimidated threat will do less to Salamence than a physical attacker will to Ho-oh, so Ho-oh is only bulkier one way, really. It's still shut down by most things with Toxic, and it can still be revenged, or even switched into, and taken out by Stone Edge. This is very similar to how a lot of people will take out MixMence. It isn't as much better as you'd think.
And did you read the first post? CM Ho-oh is not good at all, I'm afraid. Nobody will use it.
At least two spinners. Hah. What a horrible limit that is, wouldn't you get pretty sick of all that Rapid Spinning you'd need to do. Yes, Ho-oh can come in a lot of things and wall them, but so can any good wall. A Ho-oh with Toxic beats any other Ho-oh w/o Ancientpower one on one, and a Ho-oh with Toxic is horribly limited. But that's not a new problem for Ho-oh, not at all. (also the very underrated SD Infernape can Thunderpunch or Stone Edge. That would make a Ho-oh cry, just as it would make a Tentacruel, another thing that can wall Infernape, cry)
Oh, yes please. ;D
Scizor could play mindgames with Ho-oh. Common scenario: SR is up and Scizor is out. Switch into your Rapid Spinner and let it set up, or switch in Ho-oh and lose 50% health. Zapdos is still the better Scizor counter, it has roughly the same defences and the same resistances except it takes far less from SR.
+2 Life Orb Technician Quick Attack does 49.5% - 58.41% to 252 HP Ho-oh. See, even the mighty Ho-oh doesn't wall it.
Two more things it wishes it could fit on a set. This just further proves my point about it not being able to make a combination of four moves without missing out on other things that are important to it.
I don't need to mention that. Thanks to its typing and higher defence on the physical side, Lugia is the far superior wall; it even takes less from SR. And it's faster.
The first paragraph of this post covers comments like these. Let's keep the thread clean and make no more that are like it.
That's still pretty impressive. Aura Sphere is never seen and Focus Blast is really unreliable. Nobody would even use a 50% recovery move because it lets it get shut down by Toxic and things... just like Ho-oh is.
Then maybe people will use some other bulky water, or try out WacanGyara. Ho-oh needs to run speed to beat most gyarados, even before a it has a DD. In return, Gyara can beat it with Stone Edge or Waterfall. Things are not as black and white as they seem.
... No. These arguments are never well backed up. Loads of things are able to switch into that set you mentioned. Like Dragonite and Salamence, just off the top of my head. Not gonna look for more, but there definitely will be.
Toxic is far, far worse.
You listed the benefits of Ho-oh well there. But there is nothing broken about that. Punishment is a 60 BP move that I doubt anyone will even use. Yet another thing that it wishes it could fit onto a set to give it something to hurt CMCune with. So what if it can kill Azelf, Gengar, Starmie and Alakazam (I'm pretty sure most Starmie and Ho-oh wall each other, actually), there are other things that can do that better without taking a 30+% health loss from one of their moves.
Before something uses Toxic or sets up on it (it can't take more than 1 hit, absolute max, from a completely set up CMCune). Or Roars it out. Or does one of the many other things that can cripple it.
Oh, so now we're listing Zen Headbutt too? Nice. Another thing you'll never see on it. ScarfZone, which is more common now to deal with Scizor - and according this calculation I just ran Modest ScarfZone can actually 2HKO 252HP Ho-oh, so despite Ho-oh being good to counter it, it can still backfire easily.
Please don't treat me like an idiot. If it's a LO Mixed set, there are still plenty of other things you can switch in fine.
Uggghhh. Ho-oh has LOADS of weaknesses. Its strengths don't nullify those.
With all the old suicide leads and Aerodactyls running around, it probably wouldn't do so well.
So Heatran isn't that good a defensive pokémon. It has way better resistances, but nobody uses the Resttalker set anyway, because it isn't that good. This is a really hollow argument, I'm afraid.
It's useful but it isn't broken. The set you listed has plenty of counters just like all the others do.
You know, Ho-oh is not the only pokémon that pairs up well with Skymin. They're a combination that Stealth Rock loves.
Totally irrelevant. The solution is just not to leave your Magnezone in when Ho-oh comes out, just like you never need to leave a pokémon in when another pokémon comes out, unless it's dugtrio.
So don't bother trying it. You can be happy knowing that you took away Sacred Fire's PP by switching in, and something else can feel free to come into that obvious Earthquake that is about to come.
Spamming Sacred Fire is a great way to run out of PP in seconds. Even a burned Tyranitar can be a problem for Ho-oh as illustrated earlier, and it might not even get burned.
There are plenty of other counters. I have listed so many by now...
CB Ho-oh is as easy to wall as any other base 130attack CBer. It can just burn things more often. I don't think many people will even use CBHo-oh.
Thick Fat Hariyama is a great counter. I have had a Resttalk Hariyama on my current team for a very long time, and if it can take an Earth Power from 130-SpA Heatran, it can easily take an Earthquake from 130-attack Ho-oh. It proceeds to Whirlwind.
Which still won't help it much, as previously shown by now. The solution is not to attack Ho-oh directly with Bulky Waters, but to use Toxic instead. Or just use something else as your counter if you fear T-bolt and don't want Toxic.
This is a weakness, not a strength; it's hard to know what's right to use and what isn't. It still has many counters.
[What the hell?]
Okay this took hours to write up and any other posts that have come up since then I'm not going to talk about yet. But really, this needs testing. I have a counter-argument for nearly all everyone else's arguments. This can't be solved with theorymon. The only way I could get you guys to listen would be to give it a test so you could see how overrated it is yourselves.
edit: Darth Meanie you speak a lot of sense and people need to realise these things. [though I think banning Sacred Fire is bad as it really isn't as broken as everyone thinks, and I'd hate to have this left untested whilst Skymin is banned to Uber despite the potential new counter]
Sorry I'm going to have to stop you right there as this is dead wrong. Arceus is not banned from Ubers because of power; it is banned because it is not a Pokémon. Pokémon being defined as a monster you can obtain in any game through any means that the game allows you to. Unlike other event Pokémon, which either had events at the time of this ruling or (shaymin) could be glitched, Arceus is completely unobtainable (without AR).
This is how the tiers work as of now. There's OU. Then there's stuff too strong for OU, so they are put in an unbalanced ban tier called Ubers.
Uber - Ban Tier
OU - "Balanced" Tier
Then some people got bored and took the UnderUsed pokemon and made a metagame. They wanted someplace to put the not commonly used Pokémon that were too strong, so BL was made.
Uber - Ban Tier for OU
OU - "Balanced" Tier
BL - Ban Tier for UU
UU - "Balanced" Tier
This is how the tiers work. The fact that a lot of people play the Uber tier, and some crazies play the BL tier, does not change the fact that as of now the tiers do not exist to make a "balanced" metagame, but rather as place-holders for powerful Pokémon.
OP: I'm not addressing your claims not because they are right (there are flaws in pretty much all of your statements), but because I don't want to get infracted and I fear that I'll lose it.
Oh ok Ill do one. Rhyperior's stone edge can be outstalled. You keep saying "even burned and roosting it's a 2HKO" but you're ignoring that Roost heals half of your HP. Thus, even if Stone Edge NEVER misses, the 4 PP it has can be stalled with health to spare on Ho-oh. This is ignoring how horribly uncommon Rhyperior is.
You have listed very few, if any, counters not 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt / UnSTABed CB moves, or screwed over by being Burnt. This is COMPLETELY IGNORING that your argument for OU is based on the fals premise that things are made Uber if they have no counters, which is just one of the reasons people voted Chomp banned. Counters aren't even good responses anyway.
The first Uber Pokemon was Mewtwo. The Uber tier was created as a ban list. No point arguing that.
Anyway you cannot limit Pokemon combinations. We try and emulate the wifi environment, and keep this as close to the cartridge as possible. Otherwise we would have a million tedious banned combinations.
"Smogon is a Pokémon website and community specializing in the art of
competitive battling."
Are you honestly accusing the people who created that philosophy of contradicting it? I don't think you understand. OU is Standard play. Everything else can be seen as a variation of OU. UU was created for those wanting to take a break from Standard. BL was created in short as a ban list for UU to help make that a more competitive tier. How is that contradictory to Smogon's philosophy?
Now Ubers was also a ban tier for OU. Hence it was made to make OU more balanced and competitive. How is that contradictory?
It isn't contradictory. Uber and BL are ban tiers that were created to make two actual tiers more balanced and competitive, stop arguing with that.
What? Well then, I'm sure somebody else will enlighten me, else I'm not seeing any reason not to test Ho-oh.
Can you rephrase that so that it makes sense?
Edit: Nevermind.
Anyways, if you can somehow take the rocks off the field then bring in Ho-Oh you then have a real advantage, and you won't be hurting it with Gengar's Thunderbolts either. You probably won't be able to switch in your attackers because of the risk that Sacred Fire posseses. If you have something nice and bulky like a Suicune you can probably take it on, but wait... you mispredict and now your up against the CM set and it's going to put a big dent in you with a CM'd Thunderbolt! Sure you can risk the burn by sending Tyranitar and Salamence in to combate the legend but if you get burned... that's really bad.
But then again all this is theorymon and we might be hyping this like we hyped SpecsMence in early D/P.
Seriously, this thing is so diverse.
There are reasons not to test it. Testing takes time, time which can be spent on something worthwhile. Why should we painstakingly test every Uber that has some weakness? In that case RayQuaza cannot abuse weather, has a relatively low base speed, and is 4x weak to ice.
I just made a case, no point in not testing it now right?
I remember there used to be a tourney long ago where Ho-Oh was tested and I cannot find the thread, I was hoping there would be some valuable information about how it went in there.
@ Kira: Who cares about Speed when you can use Swords Dance and Extremespeed?
@ Kira: Who cares about Speed when you can use Swords Dance and Extremespeed?
I was joking. Don't start therymoning Rayquaza lol. All I said was that I could make a case for Rayquaza so according to a vast amount of people in this thread it should be tested.
Oh and Extremespeed can't hit ghosts ;)
That was my tourney, Earthquake. Of course, this was back when people thought Garchomp was quite happily OU and were still arguing about Tyranitar being Uber, and I got laughed at and generally made a fool of.
The results were actually pretty decent - Ho-oh was usually walled solid, and Stealth Rock was a massive problem for it. However, this was a very early metagame point, and Garchomp was allowed, while Deoxys-S wasn't, so the results would probably be nullified now.
The results were actually pretty decent - Ho-oh was usually walled solid, and Stealth Rock was a massive problem for it. However, this was a very early metagame point, and Garchomp was allowed, while Deoxys-S wasn't, so the results would probably be nullified now.
There may well be, though it would be outdated by now thanks to the huge changes the metagame has had recently. Although, having another Ho-oh tournament might be a good idea, so some of this theorymon could be backed up by real experience. It allows something to be done without having to wait weeks or possibly even months to see it on the suspect ladder, if it even makes it that far.
@Deucalion: That is some promising news. I think the same could still happen, even without Garchomp.
Do you have usage stats? That's really the only thing we could use here, as it doesn't matter if it's "walled solid" if the game only had 6 pokemon in it or something. Or if people didn't try broken set xyz.
Jetx, you seem... partial. Like, right now instead of trying to find out Ho-oh's tiering you're just trying as hard as you can to have it see play in OU. There's a difference between strongly believing something and almost selectively trying to find evidence to support your side (the "is 2HKO'd anyway" point seemed to demonstrate that you're not trying to develop a full understanding of an argument but instead are just trying to do what you can to make Ho-oh OU).
Jetx, you seem... partial. Like, right now instead of trying to find out Ho-oh's tiering you're just trying as hard as you can to have it see play in OU. There's a difference between strongly believing something and almost selectively trying to find evidence to support your side (the "is 2HKO'd anyway" point seemed to demonstrate that you're not trying to develop a full understanding of an argument but instead are just trying to do what you can to make Ho-oh OU).
I threw away the stats after Jumpman basically demolished me in front of everyone. There didn't seem to be much point in continuing after that. IIRC, I may still have the logs.
I'd laugh if Ho-oh ended up in OU now.
I'd laugh if Ho-oh ended up in OU now.
This is actually misleading as the Ho-oh user would actually want the first three Stone Edges to hit. If one of them misses then Ho-oh is obliged to switch out. You can't Roost at full HP. Besides wouldn't a non-choiced Rhyperior have Earthquake for Roosting turns?
Anyway, enough theorymon. My current stance is still unchanged in that I think Ho-oh belongs in Uber, but looking at the list of suspects to be tested in OU, the prospect of testing Ho-oh suddenly does not seem so ridiculous. I mean, can anyone seriously say to me that Ho-oh is less worthy of testing than DARKRAI of all Pokemon? Seriously? My opinion was no different pre-Platinum before it got Nasty Plot and Sucker Punch even.
You need 2 counters because Ho-oh can screw over one counter without even trying (which is the reason you cited for Garchomp, in essence). Also, just adding LO Thunderbolt to Ho-oh means waters are going to have some trouble.Jetx said:
Is there some serious reason you aren't listening to reason? This looks like some kind of holy war.
So, let me get this straight. Ho-oh can run Protect, Roost, Thunderbolt, AND Earthquake to screw all it's counters. Now what will it attack with? Garchomp was Uber because everything he wanted, he had in one moveset. Ho-oh can't. There will always be something it simply can't cover.
A lot of people think that if Pokemon would change their sets / usages in response to Ho-oh being introduced, it must therefore be uber. Before you make an argument, consider the case where Blissey, Tyranitar, or Salamence were banned the entire time we played, and we were considering unbanning them. "If you let in Blissey, then it's going to wall all these special attackers! Sure, you can use Taunt, or try and PP stall it with Rest, but isn't that overcentralizing!? Really, how often do you see set X?"
For example, the fact that Rhyperior isn't used much right now is irrelevant. If Ho-oh were allowed and it does prove to be as powerful as many suspect, then Pokemon like Rhyperior will increase in usage. This is not a bad thing. It really doesn't matter how much usage any Pokemon in particular gets; what matters is the usage stats as a whole.
For example, the fact that Rhyperior isn't used much right now is irrelevant. If Ho-oh were allowed and it does prove to be as powerful as many suspect, then Pokemon like Rhyperior will increase in usage. This is not a bad thing. It really doesn't matter how much usage any Pokemon in particular gets; what matters is the usage stats as a whole.
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