New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5

Skippy the Great said:

Anyone that has battled competitively isn't going to make the trade off with those versus a Metagross. That would be such a noob move. They are going to either switch in something else that has low HP, or they will switch in something that laughs at the Explosion in the first place. Stealth Rock is more viable even then Explosion on the Trick + Iron Ball set. At least you have a greater chance at residual damage that way later in the battle.

You go ahead and let ScarfTran switch into that Explosion. ;)

I'll try to paralyze that same ScafrTran, and beat it out right with an Earthquake on the second turn.

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ScarfTran won't like taking an Explosion. It does 90.1% - 106.2%, a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock. Explosion also deals a shit load to Skarmory. Occasionally paralyzing a Pokemon isn't worth losing the ability to soften counters for your other sweepers. For example, if Skarmory wants to set up on you, Explosion will do 54.8% - 64.4%. After a DD, LO Dragonite can deal 38% - 44.9% with Outrage (Life Orb, Adamant, 252 Atk EVs). That's a guaranteed OHKO after one round of Stealth Rock. After you Explode with Metagross, you should switch to something that will force Skarmory out. Explosion is much more useful, even with the risk of doing absolutely nothing.

Haunter said:

lol, actually Hippo and Swampert are excellent Metagross' counters. I believe that when you trick your iron ball to something like Rotom they're just going to switch something in on the incoming EQ. And anyway you can't assume that they're going to sacrifice something, especially if you're playing this Metagross in the early stages of the battle.

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I agree that in the early stages of battle they won't always try to Ssacrifice something, which is why in my original post I mentioned Wish support. Most likely coming from Vaporeon or Umbreon since they are also naturally bulky.

So I happen to paralyze something that doesn't necessarily need paralized in the first place. Since neither E-quake, or Body Slam have STAB, the damage output versus the Hippo or Swampert isn't going to make a difference. If I paralize something like the Pokes I mentioned in two posts ago, then it's game changing.

That's why explosion is the best move. They switch in something to absorb the EQ and you just explode in their faces. Apparently blasphemy got my point.

Haunter said:

That's why explosion is the best move. They switch in something to absorb the EQ and you just explode in their faces. Apparently blasphemy got my point.

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There are too many common OU Pokes that that won't work against.

Bronzong doesen't cares any of the three ways...It laughs at Explosion, Body Slam, and Earthquake (and Meteor Mash for that matter).

Gengar doesn't care either, but at least you can try for Wish support late game.

Gyarados thinks E-Quake is a joke, as well, but Body Slam paralysis makes it next to useless.

Flygon can be Exploded on, but why? It's also crippled with the paralysis. Once again, Wish support in this case lets Metagross come back in swinging later in the battle, which can be espacially deadly if it was lucky enough to get Choice Band or Choice Scarf off of the original Trick.

Flygon and Gengar fear meteor mash and won't be switching in that easy. Bronzong takes a decent amout of damage from explosion and Gyarados is ohko'd even without SR. Then again body slam's added effect will happen only 30% of the time so it's absolutely unreliable.

If you need more proof, here's a simple version of what I've got, via copy 'n' paste from a Smogon analysis...

Whether to use Body Slam or Return for its Normal-type STAB is purely a matter of power versus paralysis. Generally, the paralysis is more useful for Snorlax, but if one feels that a bit more power is favorable, Return is available for 20% greater force.

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The quote, of course, comes from a Snorlax analysis, and Metagross isn't exactly known for being a fast Poke either, so yes, they are compairable.

...Even though we are talking about about non-STAB'd Body Slam versus Earthquake, the Smogon analysis that has been throughly tested time and time again won't lie. It is merely an arguement of preference between power and parahax. Simple as that.

Saying that you were wrong, was wrong of me, and I apologize, however, in this case, I assure you, niether of us are wrong.

I still stand my ground though in saying that (with proof from a Smogon analysis this time) both Body Slam's damage output, incorperated with it's 30% chance of paraylisis is very viable (I could have quoted more than one, and not just from Snorlax's analysis).

I know that at least one person around here will agree with me, and that person would be whoever wrote the original analysis I copied and pasted my quoted section from.

I'd just like to jump in because this is kind of pissing me off.

Generally, the paralysis is more useful for Snorlax

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Paralysis is great for Snorlax because every full paralysis is another free Curse. Metagross doesn't directly benefit from full paralysis. In addition, comparing a base 100 power move (Return) with Body Slam is very different from comparing a base 500 power move with said Body Slam.

The quote, of course, comes from a Snorlax analysis, and Metagross isn't exactly known for being a fast Poke either, so yes, they are compairable.

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Snorlax is a late-game sweeper that relies on incredible bulk to set up multiple Curses, tank hits, and strike back.

Iron Ball Metagross is an early-game Rotom-A, Zapdos, and Skarmory lure.

Comparable? Not in the slightest. Metagross's role on a team is the opposite of Snorlax's.

With body slam + STAB Snorlax is still hitting with a 127 base power move, Metagross doesn't get stab. And btw no one in their right mind would ever talk about a "reliable chance of paralysis" when it only has a 30% chance of happening. Jirachi has a 60% chance to inflict paralysis when using that move and not even it this case we can say that body slam is a reliable paralysis inducing move.

Also please, see above. Snorlax and Metagross serve differnent roles. Now please stop this as it's getting quite boring.

The standard Trick Iron Ball Metagross set in the analysis vs. Tank Bronzong in the analysis with Explosion: 74.3% - 87.6%

I would be very hard pressed to call that nothing. Pretty much anything is gonna take out that Bronzong after that, so if you get rocks up and explode, I'd say that puts you quite a bit up against the other team.

This is a set me and psychotic have been working on. tested on shoddy / pokemon online to be a great Revenge killer although a frail one 2



Mamoswine @ choice scarf
Ability: Snow cloak
Nature: Jolly / adamant
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moveset:
.Ice Fang
.Earthquake
.Rock slide / Stone edge
.Super power

Unlike most revenge killers this swine has the power to eliminate threats that trouble alot of teams unexpectedly such as outspeeding the oh so common scarftran and scarftar getting rid of them in one hit. It also takes advantage of hail team as being a scarfed ground type it destroys most fire type that dare face it. as for evs 252 Atk take it to its maximum power to ensure 1ko's on all fragile threats and 2ko's on bulky pokemon like zapdos. 252 speed to take it up to an amazing 426 speed. as scarfed mamoswine is a lure to CB scizor and faster counters it can either attack for the ko or switch to give a team mate the chance to set up on the switch. Adamant may be used for extra damage but wont be a sure outspeed vs scarftran. Ice fang and earthquake are main stab attacks followed with stone edge / rock slide for the likes of gyarados and super power for weavile and tyranitar. overall an amazing choice scarfer.

-Lux- said:

This is a set me and psychotic have been working on. tested on shoddy / pokemon online to be a great Revenge killer although a frail one 2

Mamoswine @ choice scarf
Ability: Snow cloak
Nature: Jolly / adamant
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moveset:
.Ice Fang
.Earthquake
.Rock slide / Stone edge
.Super power

Unlike most revenge killers this swine has the power to eliminate threats that trouble alot of teams unexpectedly such as outspeeding the oh so common scarftran and scarftar getting rid of them in one hit. It also takes advantage of hail team as being a scarfed ground type it destroys most fire type that dare face it. as for evs 252 Atk take it to its maximum power to ensure 1ko's on all fragile threats and 2ko's on bulky pokemon like zapdos. 252 speed to take it up to an amazing 426 speed. as scarfed mamoswine is a lure to CB scizor and faster counters it can either attack for the ko or switch to give a team mate the chance to set up on the switch. Adamant may be used for extra damage but wont be a sure outspeed vs scarftran. Ice fang and earthquake are main stab attacks followed with stone edge / rock slide for the likes of gyarados and super power for weavile and tyranitar. overall an amazing choice scarfer.

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I just would like to be the first to say that, if you are locked into any of your moves, there are a multitude of pokemon that can setup on you. Gyarados can easily setup on any of your moves (Rock Slide is a 2HKO only if you roll near max damage twice) and sweep you upside the head.

I do like the speed it hits with a Scarf, but locking into Ice Fang, a 65 base power move, or Superpower with your defense dropping each use, or EQ against Skarmory, you are in trouble. How does this work better than other Scarfed physical threats such as Flygon or Jirachi other than having STAB Ice Fang?

@baldafor as stated its unexpected works exeptionaly well in hail and its a revenge sweeper . it comes in when other pokemon cant. almost most scarf users can only use one move before switching and lets be honest jirachi cannot deal with heatran even if it tried. its also an amazing lure for team threats

-Lux- said:

This is a set me and psychotic have been working on. tested on shoddy / pokemon online to be a great Revenge killer although a frail one 2

Mamoswine @ choice scarf
Ability: Snow cloak
Nature: Jolly / adamant
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moveset:
.Ice Fang
.Earthquake
.Rock slide / Stone edge
.Super power

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Rock Slide's power is way too iffy. Stick with Stone Edge, that way you can at least put up a fight against Gyrados before it utterly wrecks your shit. Also, you have to be VERY careful around which move to pick, as stated earlier. While this can function as an effective Revenger, you still have to use caution, especially when faced with a team that has stupid things like Scizor to wreck your fun. Also, I still don't like Ice Fang's weaker power. I'd highly advise you to abuse this in Hail.

Works as a suprise Poke well enough, but other than that, it's just setup fodder for whatever comes in next. Also, I'd like to see speed comparisions on what you can/cannot outspeed with Jolly. This Swine looks like it NEEDS Adamant, but I'm a bit doubtful it can outspeed a certain few Scarfers without Jolly.

@Colonel Darren I agree with you but still its availibility to Outspeed and ko alot of fragile threats give it the edge paired with magnezone kills scizor on the spot

-Lux- said:

@Colonel Darren I agree with you but still its availibility to Outspeed and ko alot of fragile threats give it the edge paired with magnezone kills scizor on the spot

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It would help if you listed key threats, Scarfed or Unscarfed, that Jolly can outspeed that Adamant can't. It would also be beneficial if I saw some Jolly vs. Adamant calculations, especially on things like Gyrados (Without Intimidate. We can assume this Mamo is coming in to revenge Gyrados, so it should be at full power.).

I understand the need for a certain speed, but I'm not sure if you'd still have the power to pull through.

This may sound gimmick, but it actually manages to catch people of guard, expecting the LO set;

Aerodactyl @ White Herb
Naive / Jolly
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
~ Curse
~ Stone Edge
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Blast / Roost / Aerial Ace

The Life Orb set grants a +30% boost to attacks, while a single Curse grants +50%, without the cost of losing 10% of your health every turn. White Herb negates the Speed drop given by curse, and leaves you with a 463 Attack, 394 Speed monster. QuakeEdge gives you needed coverage, while the last moveslot is a choice between what you want to handle. If you manage to predict Scizor switching in, Fire Blast will do 80% to 95% damage to it - a KO if they have switched into Stealth Rocks once, and a 50% chance to KO if they only switched in once. Roost let's you regain lost health, as Aerodactyl actually becomes somewhat capable of taking a hit with +1 Defense and if Sandstorm is up. Lastly, Aerial Ace let's you KO Breloom, who only takes about 70% from Fire Blast. However, Breloom takes a minimum of 48% from Stone Edge, which is a guaranteed 2KO if it switches into it with SR up.

Some damage calculations...

+0 Stone Edge vs. 12 / 0 Gyarados = 102.4% - 121%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 136 / 156 Starmie = 69.2% - 81.4%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 0 / 0 Starmie = 92.3% - 109.2%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 252 / 168 Rotom-A = 51.3% - 60.5%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 0 / 0 Bold Rotom-A = 82.6% - 97.5%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 252 / 4 Gliscor = 49.2% - 57.6%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 4 / 0 Gengar = 100%
+1 Stone Edge vs. 252 / 228 Impish Dusknoir = 42.9% - 50.3%
+1 Earthquake vs. 0 / 0 Electivire = 100%
+1 Earthquake vs. 4 / 0 Tyranitar = 76% - 89.5%

That set is interesting, but I think it could be walled by a load of things of not carrying Taunt. The real reason why Life Orb is used over this most of the time is that it can carry both Roost and Taunt, effectively shutting down walls like Skamory. Although Fire Blast is a nice gimmicky idea...

Curse Aerodactyl has been in the analysis until recently. It is still mentioned in the AC though.

The problem with Curse Aerodactyl is you are taking a turn to set up a Curse to get the 1.5x boost, whereas the Life Orb set can immediately hit with 1.3x power. Two attacks at 1.3x power are more powerful than a single attack at 1.5x power.

blasphemy1 said:

The problem with Curse Aerodactyl is you are taking a turn to set up a Curse to get the 1.5x boost, whereas the Life Orb set can immediately hit with 1.3x power. Two attacks at 1.3x power are more powerful than a single attack at 1.5x power.

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Not if you hit the switch-in with the wrong move

druin said:

Not if you hit the switch-in with the wrong move

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Stone Edge has great coverage. The things that resist it are going to be beating Curse Aerodactyl anyways (Metagross, Jirachi, Swampert). There is really no point in using that set.

Anti-Heatran set Mantine



(this was made as I was looking for a good counter to most Heatran set. Since Heatran is now the most common Pokemon in the metagame, teams have to be prepared)

Mantine has awesome Special Defences and fairly good typing. It loses to some common types like Rock (although most Rock moves are physical, so it would be silly to keep Mantine in then) and Electric. It has a weak movepool, and without a reliable recovery move it requires team support to work. However I think there is a place for it in the OU metagame.

Mantine @ Leftovers
Calm
Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Hp; 36 Def; 20 SpA; 200 SpD
~ Rest
~ Toxic
~ Ice Beam
~ Surf

This set requires a bit of help to function in more ways than just as a wall to Heatran. Rest is there to get rid of nasty status' (particularly Toxic), and Toxic is always a good move for a wall, and allows Mantine to do damage to whatever switches into Mantine once they realise Tran isn't going to hurt it. Mantine can break all Heatran subs with Surf, while a standard Scarfed Rash Heatran with max SpeA does less than 1/4 damage with Fire Blast. A Hidden Power Electric will do 70% max, allowing Mantine to just survive after SR damage - but that's uncommon from my experience.

How to best utilise this set?
- I've had a good bit of success using this Mantine with a core of Heatran and Shaymin, but Celebi could also work well. The idea is that Mantine attracts electric attacks, so Shaymin can get a fairly safe switch. If Mantine rests, switch out and try and find space for an Aromatheropy. All super effective moves directed at Heatran are soaked up by Mantine - and all of Shaymin's weaknesses are covered by Heatran and Mantine.

One thing stopping Mantine from being a more used Pokemon is a lack of real options in terms of moveset, and takes 25% from Stealth Rock. Therefore its better to have a rapid spinner or a lead that can outright prevent SR (the former is a lot easier). Ground spinners are great with Mantine, Claydol and Donphan in particular. These two can take the electric and rock types aimed at Mantine well.

Using NU and UU Pokemon in OU often requires a lot of team support instead of being an inferior substitute for something else (e.g. Mantine is an inferior special wall to Blissey). But with the right team support, Mantine is a perfectly usable player in OU, and I've had a fair deal of success with it in my current team. Heatrans that are running around these days usually don't have HP Electric, meaning that he can't hurt Mantine outside of explosion. It can support against other special sweepers and can take any neutral special move well.

I can't finish without mentioning Mantine's ability - water absorb. On a predicted water type attack, Mantine can recover itself. This makes him a great Pokemon against other Bulky Water types (without Sub), like Swampert and Vaporeon. Mantine can come in, and throw a Toxic at them, and rest if they do the same back.

It's not massively different to other Mantine sets (as it doesn't have a host of viable options) but this is to show that he is usable in OU.

I think the Big Blue Blissey as I call him is well worth a shot in OU, and not just on Rain Dance teams.

I don't see why you'd ever use Mantine when you have Gyarados. It has higher HP, Intimidate, and a great attack stat. That set actually loses to Torment Heatran, while Gyarados can use Earthquake + Waterfall to beat it. Anything Mantine can do, Gyarados can pretty much do better.

blasphemy1 said:

I don't see why you'd ever use Mantine when you have Gyarados. It has higher HP, Intimidate, and a great attack stat. That set actually loses to Torment Heatran, while Gyarados can use Earthquake + Waterfall to beat it. Anything Mantine can do, Gyarados can pretty much do better.

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Except hit on the Special side, or completely bork over any Vaporeon that does not run HP Electric by nailing it with Toxic. Yes, I still prefer Gyrados, but Mantine could still be played around with it's better Special Defense.

Though honestly, for a Heatran counter, this Mantine does fail against a Torment version.

blasphemy1 said:

I don't see why you'd ever use Mantine when you have Gyarados. It has higher HP, Intimidate, and a great attack stat. That set actually loses to Torment Heatran, while Gyarados can use Earthquake + Waterfall to beat it. Anything Mantine can do, Gyarados can pretty much do better.

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Tried Gyarados, tried Mantine but Mantine works better due to massive SpD. Since I run Heatran on my own team, Torment Tran means nothing to me as all it can do is Lava Plume and Starmie which can also take down Torment Tran.

Mantine takes special moves better, as a special wall Mantine is better - the Ice Beam and Surf are there to hit certain Pokemon fairly well, not to be an offensive threat like Gyarados would. Plus an ability like Water Absorb works excellent for a wall.