OU Suspect Testing Round 1 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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Darkrai: The second fastest Pokemon with a sleep-inducing move in the game is also the Pokemon with the second-most reliable sleep-inducing move in the game. Access to Dark Void allows Darkrai to use his nearly perfect attacking combination of Focus Blast and [STAB] Dark Pulse very effectively, especially when boosted by Nasty Plot. Consider it a faster, more powerful Gengar with better defenses and access to a reliable sleeping move as well as Nasty Plot (but with Dark-typing and Levitate). Access to a reliable, fast sleep is enough to make Darkrai broken anyway in my eyes, due to sleep's new mechanics this generation.
Sounds like your problem is more with sleep then with Darkrai as a pokemon. As with most people who nominate darkrai.

Not counting people who nominate Darkrai but sound like their problem is with sleep, there are 3 nominations for sleep that I've counted (I may have missed some though). Feel free to nominate sleep moves, there's no restriction against it.

To edit my own with moves that would specifically be banned (since I didn't actually list them):
Banned: Spore, Dark void, Sleep powder, hypnosis, sing, grasswhistle, lovely kiss, yawn (this one is more of a 90%, with normal sleep clause in effect).
Not Banned: Ancient voice, secret power(can you even change it to be sleep inducing in wifi?), rest.
 
Nomnomnominations:

(unreleased Dream World stuff is underlined)

Shaymin's Sky Forme: This Pokémon is unstoppable by even the best special walls, thanks to STAB Seed Flare's "chance" of lowering Special Defense by two stages. The only wall that can stop Shaymin is Perversity Shuckle, and even then, it's only because of Perversity and Shuckle's insanely high defenses. [theorymon] And, just maybe, a Clear Body Regice or Registeel could too. [/theorymon] Meanwhile, every other wall, as well as the ones that have either Perversity or high defenses, but not both, is utterly decimated. Its great speed, already high Special Attack, and 60% flinch rate through Air Slash only add to its brokenness, although if it only had these it wouldn't be broken.

Deoxys:
Deoxys's Attack Forme is incredibly powerful, and despite its abysmal defenses, its incredibly high Speed, surpassed only by its Speed Forme and Ninjask, in combination with its unwallable offenses, means that you are guaranteed to lose one Pokémon against it.

Deoxys's Normal Forme is just as fast as its Attack Forme, and while it is not as powerful, its offensive stats still surpass all other Pokémon except for its Attack Forme and Mewtwo, as well as tying with Kyogre, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, and Reshiram. Let's not forget the fact that it can take a hit.

Deoxys's Speed Forme is the fastest Pokémon in the game. It has access to both Spikes and Stealth Rock, as well as Taunt. But now that Magic Coat can reflect entry hazards, with higher priority than Mischievous Heart allows, this means that it is unquestionably the best entry-hazard lead in the game. This presents a problem. There is absolutely no reason to choose any other lead in the game, besides the Taunt-weak, Magic Coat-less Forretress, whose only advantage is Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Why use lead Nattorei when Deoxys's Speed Forme can create entry hazards so much more efficiently?

Deoxys's Defense Forme is incredibly underwhelming. It's not worth banning.

Darkrai: Darkrai is fast, has access to Nasty Plot, causes Bad Dreams, and has Dark Void. I don't think sleep is broken this generation, but a fast Pokémon with a reliable sleep move and Bad Dreams is. It's still very possible that a Pokémon will wake up the very next turn, but with Darkrai, that doesn't matter. Darkrai will promptly put it back to sleep the turn after that. Darkrai doesn't even need to attack: Bad Dreams will hurt the sleeping foe every turn regardless. On top of that, Darkrai is the only Pokémon that is fast and has a reliable sleep move. Every Spore user (and Butterfree) can't even be considered to have good speed. And, in Mults, it makes all the opponent's Pokémon fall asleep!

Manaphy: Manaphy has Tail Glow, and actually good stats, unlike Volbeat. It also has Hydration, meaning any damage you do to it in the rain is all for naught. Manaphy's Tail Glow means that even its limited movepool will hit extremely hard.

Doryuuzu: With an Attack stat equal to the Special Attack stat of Porygon-Z, and with Sand Paddle making it fast in Sandstorm, unlike Porygon-Z, it is really strong. All of its abilities make it formidable: Sand Power raises the power of Earthquake, and Mold Breaker breaks through Sturdy. You have to have a Pokémon that can beat it to beat it.

Shandera: Even without Shadow Tag, a Pokémon with the highest non-Legendary Special Attack and Flash Fire-boosted STAB Overheat, along with having more defenses than the bulkiest of the frail, Porygon-Z, is insane. With Shadow Tag, Shandera is even more insane. Shandera is guaranteed to defeat your Pokémon. None of the other Shadow Tag Pokémon are broken, and Wobbuffet has lost its luster. So I say, don't ban Shadow Tag, ban Shandera!

Drizzle & Drought: I don't think we should ban them. The very existence of both of them means that the four auto-weathers will have to compete with each other.

Include Inconsistent as part of Evasion Clause: There is really not much difference between the problem that Evasion-boosting moves cause and the problem that Inconsistent causes. For this reason, I believe that Inconsistent should be part of Evasion Clause, which is standard anyway.
 
Sounds like your problem is more with sleep then with Darkrai as a pokemon. As with most people who nominate darkrai.

Not counting people who nominate Darkrai but sound like their problem is with sleep, there are 3 nominations for sleep that I've counted (I may have missed some though). Feel free to nominate sleep moves, there's no restriction against it.
Actually, you are right. Darkrai is fast, powerful and surprisingly bulky, but it is really Dark Void and sleep that makes him so dangerous.

Changing my my Darkrai Nomination to a Sleep one.
 
Didn't attempt to reach the required rank, but here are my suggestions from relatively limited playing. Here are my nomnomnoms:

Shaymin-S - This guy is nearly impossible to defend against, and his bulk isn't really terrible. He essentially guarantees at least one KO (usually multiple KOs) because of the combination of speed, special attack, and great moves. I think this has been thoroughly explained in the thread already.

Manaphy - Tail Glow, Base 100 stats, Hydration, and good enough moves to hit really hard with good coverage. With Rain becoming easier to pull off with Politoed's Drizzle, I think Manaphy is too overpowered for the metagame.

Sadly, because I love using this Pokemon, I believe Doryuuzu warrants testing under the same logic. Sandstorm is easy to pull off with Hippowdon/Tyranitar, then this guy absolutely tears teams to pieces. Barring Priority, it outspeeds almost everyone else and destroys them.

Darkrai - He is the reason that a ban of Sleep is getting support early in this metagame's development. He's fast and has Dark Void+Bad Dreams, which in itself is a lethal combination. Add his special attack and move pool to that equation and you have a broken Pokemon.

Shadow Tag
- I think this ability is still broken, because it almost guarantees a free KO, which is a bad thing for the metagame. Yes, Encore is nerfed, but it's still a very powerful (and in my opinion, broken) ability.

Hax items
- I only saw one nomination for these to be banned again. I see no reason to leave hax items unbanned, as they add an unnecessary element of chance to the game, even if they may backfire on the user if they are relied upon too much. If nothing else, Brightpowderor other evasion-boosting itemsshould be banned under the Evasion Clause.

I haven't had a lot of experience with Deoxys, but I think it's clear that this Pokemon warrants a ban. The speed form outclasses every other lead in the typical "setup" role, by quite a bit, and threatens to really centralize that part of the metagame around this one Pokemon. The attack and normal forms are both incredibly powerful (even the normal form, with a little bit of bulk too). The defense form is a decent wall, but it isn't really overpowered.

Ban Inconsistent under Evasion Clause. It can boost Evasiveness, therefore it should be banned.
 
Didn't even come close to the rank, but here's my nominations anyways :)

Inconsistent - In a game that already has quite a bit of luck involved, having something like Inconsistent just seems bad for the game. I mean, it's a double barreled game of Russian roulette, and one of the barrels just happens to be pointed at the user. You get random +2s for sitting around and doing nothing, all at the low cost of a -1. Even if it were a +1/-1, I don't think it would be good for the game... It just wouldn't nearly be as stupid. Based on the fact that it seems like just about everyone is nominating the ability, I think that speaks a lot for how bad it is. I can't really add anything more that hasn't been added, but... Yeah, Inconsistent probably deserves the ban-hammer more than anything at this point.

Shaymin-S - This thing's got everything it could ever want, and then some. Skymin's got an amazing ability (With probably the best move it could ever ask for to abuse it: Seed Flare ), great speed to help it abuse all of it's little toys, enough power to keep it from simply being a minor annoyance, SubSeed to piss everyone off, great coverage to use with that power, and an 80% chance to give special walls like Blissey the finger. It's just a combination of badness that ain't right.

Manaphy - In my opinion, rain's only as broken as the 'mons that abuse it, and nothing seems better than Manaphy (Though, Kingdra can be close at times. ). Last I checked, 100 in everything's some pretty good stats. It's got bulk, power, and speed. What makes Manaphy so powerful is not it's stats, or even Tail Glow (Though, they do help ), it's the fact that status does nothing to it! You can't slow it down, you can't sleep it, you can't toxic it, and it's got instant 100% recovery. Here's your choices when facing Manaphy; OHKO it and be able to survive it's hit if you're slow, have over 100 base speed and get a solid 2HKO, have a really freaking powerful priority attack (Goes along with the OHKO thing ), or Trick it while it's setting up. Manageable? Perhaps... Depending on the team... But from what I understand, being able to counter or check something or play around it does not make it good for the game. Before anything else in rain, or rain itself is considered, I think this little guy needs to go first.

Darkrai/sleep - Sleep's a jerk of a status condition, but sleep really ain't the problem here in my opinion. Sure, Venasaur was teetering on the edge of being BL last gen, but I don't think it was just 'cause of sleep. It was that fairly bulky, semi fast, unpredictable, decently powered, semi accurate sleep that made Venasaur so powerful in UU last gen. Likewise, it's that powerful, fast, capable of either setting up a sweep or rip holes in a team sleep that makes Darkrai so powerful, if you ask me. I think Darkrai should go before sleep does, though I will admit to being a bit biased here since I really like Yawn and a certain 5th gen mushroom pokémon that gets spore, so I'd hate to see it go. Either way, something needs to be done here. Rather Darkrai or sleep goes, I'm sure that it'll make for a more enjoyable metagame. I trust you guys to make a good decision here.

I'm uncertain of some of the other suspects such as the Deoxys forms. I feel that the above (And Darkrai instead of sleep itself, but again, bias. ) should go first, and that Deoxys and friends should maybe get another chance. Maybe.
 
Inconsistent: Almost completely turning the game into a convoluted series of coinflips, I feel Inconsistent should be banned. I don't believe that Inconsistent is in anyway overpowered, it is more often than not a waste of a team slot. However, I don't feel as if the ability (the strategy is promotes) should be a part of a competitive metagame, due to the extreme role that luck plays in such strategy. Not "Uber" persay, but rather "Non-competitive." Winning a game as a result of luck is part of pokemon, but winning a game entirely due to luck should be avoided.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / BrightPowder / Lax Incense / Acupressure / Any other possible source of +Evasion: While we're add it, let's fix Evasion clause. Everyone knows how trollish the abilities and items are, and allowing them but disallowing Double Team seems like it's more complicated that it should be. I suggest modifying Evasion clause to include anything that can increase evasion. All of the Pokemon either now or will eventually have other abilities through Dream World. I cannot overstate how many games I have won with SD/Sub Brightpowder Garchomp in the sand that I probably shouldn't have.
 
If this include ubers to OU(at least last gen ubers) this is how i view about them :

Deoxys forme : Most have said A, N is broken while S and D is not. I agree but i dont think a is that broken. However, S is good for hazard and is arguably the best lead for setting hazard second only to forry in leading. D however seems underwhelming. While im using it a lot and abusing its merit(i mean pressure + Knock off + recover + Status move is very good as a defensive status pivot) its just so very good not broken like the level A and N might achieve

Garchomp : he got a problem from mainly 3 things. Weather, Latis, Last gen ubers.
Those have the power to break through him easily with thir speed and power and SE attack which ironically exist in all 3 of them making his life hard. However some of those mainly latis removed, he still has some problem most notably nattrei. Hes just too good but not as insane as metagame before.

Latis : still depend on the meta. I find 110 speed for a dragon with that attacking power too overwhelming to this metagame but the existance of weather and doryuuzu(which is controversial) is overshadowing them.

Wobb : ban this already. Many dont use him right and i agree if someone use this and shaymin S, Deo-A, and darkrai in the right way, born the insane offensive combination so insane its near unpenetrable (although this combination lose to Doryuuzu in SS downright so pack some anti weather measure). Shadow tag doesnt deem insane at first but his ability at doing his usual job is too insane to be hold in OU

The obvious ubers like Kyogre and Groudon(simply too broken and outclass their counterpart completely), mewtwo (too perfect), Dragon trio(typing too good and godly niche), Rayquaza (lol obvious) are obvious

Ho oh: while hes 4x SR weak, what make him not fail like charizard is his movepool. Sacred fire, Brave and Roost in general make him a beast especialy factoring his bulky stats. Combined it create sych a trror that even stealth rock cant completely handle him. This make him a ver frightening sweeper in its own right and definitely too powerful in OU

Lugia : the most controversial pokemon in uebrs. However as PO have shown in the test, Lugia is simply too broken in OU. Basicaly when lugia drop too OU, say hi to sandstorm and rain everywhere since sand have lugia to beat roopushin with his aeroblast and rain has deadly CM sweeper. Most seems to say lugia is a wall.

In ubers this hold true on most cases but in OU its not that way. Lugia's bulk is so insane that uninvested in defensive department, hes already as bulky as specially defensive nattrei with full investment + 110 speed and we know how bulky natts is. His typing ISNT bad and his movepool is insane for OU standard. Basically in OU, this make every defensive team needs on having blissey or wobbuffet on OU more than before unless they want to be sweeped by lugia. Ttar is handled easily and seeing how risky it is too use scarf tar which outspeed, lugia will have easier time.

Finally in OU lugia is an offensive terror. With his 110 speed, enough 90 SpA in OU standard, CM and some great move, and the lack of zekrom to check him, expect lugia to be such a broken adition in OU metagame of gen 5 making its undeniably too powerful in OU. To show how insane it is heres how he handles some gen 5 metagame non on Speed + weather threats in standard

Roobushin and every fighting type : Aeroblast for OHKO basically fighting is dead
Dragons : ice beam or dragon pulse. As a bonus hes faster than every dragon in the metagame goving easier time against latis also theres always roost.
Randorusu : Ice beam
Gengar : Speed tie making its easier
Cloyster : Aeroblast or Thunderbolt does massive damage
Lucario : earth power. Every variants of Luke (even SD ES) has hard time with lugia since he outspeed and dont weak to any of luke's priority
Birikion : Aeroblast
Terrakion : hard in SS but lugia is outspeeding. Get a mention for being one of the fighting type that has easier time against lugia in many cases
 

Death Phenomeno

I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
is a Contributor Alumnus
My nominations are the following:

Lati@s - Some people compare them to Sazandora, but these 2 have advantages over it. These 2 are faster, have a better movepool, and their typing is enough for them to have a different niche. While Latias may have a weaker Draco Meteor, her speed makes up for it. These 2 may be weak to Pursuit, but they resist Mach Punch (and Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet), which is currently a very big deal.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / BrightPowder / Lax Incense - Thanks to the Dream World, now the whole argument that said something like "we can't ban these abilities since certain Pokémon have it as their only ability!" is no longer valid. Thus, we can have a complete Evasion Clause. As for the items, I personally feel that there's a double standard for them, but that's just me. The only problem with this would be having to say goodbye to Froslass, Tsunbear, Sandslash, Cacturne, and Garchomp until they get released. Also, their movepools (and Glaceon's as well) would have to be trimmed. This "hax" can be completely averted so, as someone who has lost many battles due to a 100% accurate move missing by something completely avoidable, I believe it should.


I find it funny that the same thing happened again. Just like in last generation, the Pokémon that everyone thought would be banned immediately just by the first impression it gave (in this case Ononokusu) hasn't been mentioned at all. But I digress.
 
At the guy above me, Jarooda with Antagonist or what ever it's called does not exist.
Now to my nominations. Did not reach 1400.

1. Darkrai- In UU the main agruement that Gallade and to a lesser exstant Heracross were broken was that they could destroy stall and still hold their own against offensive teams. Darkrai was famed in Ubers to destroy stall. There is an archived stall team that is their because it uses primape to stop Darkrai, i know that there is more to it than that, but that is the main reason. Also the new sleep machainics do not help its couase to stay in OU. That fact that it can put something to sleep for virtually the entire match, makes it very hard to deal, as almost any could testify to. Also its access to Nasty Plot to really hurt offesive teams with out Roobushin again make it hard for bulky offesive teams to deal with. Lastly, with bulk comparable to Machamp, stopping him late game is nearly impossible.

2. Skaymin-S- again a beast that needs really no introduction. The fact is that just about only Blissey and Chansey can always beat it one on one and they can be flinched to death. Nothing slower can safely switch into it due to the fact that Seed Flare could and probably will sharply lower your SpD and then Air Slash can easily flinch it to death. The only truely safe switch to a Subseed set is Scarfmin-S and Skarmory and maybe Erufruun. None of them can switch into 4 attacks or sub 3 attacks. With the power to leave offesive teams in its dust their is no reason to keep the beast around. It does not help that Nintales can give it a plus 2 boost to growth wiht infinite sun, that strategy was used against me and it swept unhindered.

3. Manaphy- Without it drizzle is much easier to deal with. You also have one switch into it. If you guess wrong you lose. On doubt. A tail glowers are always beat by anything that outspeeds it and hits it hard like Jolt and Latios. Neither of those two can safely come in on a Bulky calm Mind or Wacan berry. In fact very little can come in one Bulky Calm Mind. You are required to change the whether to beat it and not all teams can do this. Even still it is a pain to kill. Lastly using it does not take any skill, just point, aim and fire away.

4. Deoxys-N and A- never once had I a problem with the other two forms. Although these two are impossible to get. They are by definition the best sweepers in the game. Stall has no chance to stob either of the forms without luck. Nothing can ever safely switch in, it has a too wide of movepool and for all those who believe that Scizor and Metagross work, they donot work. They cannot safely switch into these two because of Pycho Boost hitting them for pretty good damage and even then it is a guessing game.
 
Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / BrightPowder / Lax Incense - Thanks to the Dream World, now the whole argument that said something like "we can't ban these abilities since certain Pokémon have it as their only ability!" is no longer valid. Thus, we can have a complete Evasion Clause. As for the items, I personally feel that there's a double standard for them, but that's just me. The only problem with this would be having to say goodbye to Froslass, Tsunbear, Sandslash, Cacturne, and Garchomp until they get released. Also, their movepools (and Glaceon's as well) would have to be trimmed. This "hax" can be completely averted so, as someone who has lost many battles due to a 100% accurate move missing by something completely avoidable, I believe it should.

I agree with this. If you want no hacks, don't stop at inconsistent.
 
Did not make the requirement nominating

Swift Swim - For a change of pace from drizzle discussion I feel the alternative should be considered, even if for a moment. Unless you feel rain stall is overpowered as well, then for variety's sake and to simply of considered any alternatives, Swift swim should be nominated. It's quite clear that even if you banned any individual swift swimmer for drizzle abuse, another would take it's place. In that regard banning drizzle is an easy solution. If Swift swim is removed from OU, Rain offense in comparison to what it is now, is essentially destroyed, and without drizzle rain stall is essentially destroyed.
- Is swift swim broken outside of drizzle? Many say no?
- Is rain stall broken with drizzle? Many say no.
So if you ban swift swim, your left mostly with rain stall, if you ban drizzle your left with RD rain offense.
If both options are equally valid it's entirely up to the voters.

Rain may quite well be broken. Nattorei is said to be the main counter, but kabutops and floatzel can ohko him if he attempts to switch in after they're boosted. Nattorei can essentially be powered through until he breaks and after he breaks rain just continues to be a wrecking ball.
If rain is broken, why it's broken should be looked at, drizzle is already a common nomination and simply to consider and check any alternatives, I nominate swift swim.
This but I'm going to take it a step farther:

Swift Swim/ Sand Throw/ Chlorophyll
: The one thing I've seen in all of the nominations of drizzle is Swift Swim. So the way I see it, the problem(if there is one) isn't with drizzle or any other weather it's with this abilities. If the argument was that rain is broken because it gives double then I would say ok, but it's really the combination of rain and swift swim. Now why not drizzle but rain? Banning Swift Swim keeps a play style. Rain will still be good even without the swift swimmers, but it won't be broken. Also, it wouldn't make sense to nominate swift swim and not sand throw and chlorophyll.
 

November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
is a Contributor Alumnus
Ban antagonist?! Jesus fucking christ, ban happy much?

I would like to nominate lugia and/or ho-oh to be tested in OU as suspects. I have listed several reasons why I believe that this is viable in the suspect testing thread.
 
Inconsistent

This ability is completely luck-based, and while luck is a part of Pokemon, too much luck removes the skill that makes Pokemon a competitive game. Inconsistent should be banned under the evasion clause (which means it should be banned from Ubers as well).

Darkrai

Darkrai has great offensive stats : base 125 speed outspeeds most of the metagame and base 135 special attack hits extremely hard. Even when Darkrai can't sweep a team, it is useful : its speed and power let it revenge kill slower, weakened sweepers. And if they're not weakened, Darkrai can put them to sleep.
Darkrai's bulk is decent for a sweeper : 70/90/90 defenses let it survive Roobushin's Mach Punch (59.9 % - 70.5 %). Darkrai has a good chance to survive a +1 Mach Punch without Stealth Rock (89.7 % - 105.3 %). Darkrai can even survive extremely strong neutral attacks such as Doryuuzu's Earthquake. Jolly Balloon Doryuuzu deals 65.5 % - 77.2 %. Doryuuzu needs a Life Orb to have a chance to OHKO (84.7 % - 100.4 %) and an Adamant nature for a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock (93.2 % - 110 %).
Darkrai has an almost perfect type coverage : Heracross and Toxicroak are the only useful Pokemon able to resist both Dark Pulse and Focus Blast, and they aren't very common. While Focus Blast is not very reliable, it hits more often than not and kills Tyranitar and Steel-type Pokemon.
This great coverage let Darkrai use two non-attacking moves. Dark Void incapacitates a Pokemon and gives Darkrai a free turn. If you don't carry a Pokemon with Sleep Talk, Darkrai's Dark Void is similar to a more accurate OHKO move (you will rarely wake up with the new mechanics). It's even worse : if Darkrai killed your Pokemon, you can bring a counter. But if Darkrai put your Pokemon to sleep, it can use it as setup fodder and use its second support move : Nasty Plot or Substitute.
Darkrai can use Nasty Plot to begin a sweep or Substitute to make prediction easier. Nasty Plot + Dark Pulse + Focus Blast or Substitute + Dark Pulse + Focus Blast would just be hard to stop, but the fact that Darkrai gets a free setup (and neuters one of your Pokemon) if you don't have a Sleep Talker make it clearly Uber.

Swift Swim

Offensive Rain teams are extremely hard to beat. They can attack you from the physical side (Kabutops, Kingdra) or the special side (Ludicolo, Kingdra again). Kabutops, and Kingdra have boosting moves to become even stronger. There are only three types able to resist their insanely strong water-type moves : Grass, Dragon, and Water itself. Grass and Dragon are weak to Ice Beam, and Water-types are killed by Ludicolo. Nattorei is useful against them, but it doesn't have access to a reliable recovery move and will fall from repeated Water moves. Changing the weather is difficult, as all the weather changers are weak to Water (except Abomasnow, but it is uncommon), but it is often the only way to beat Rain teams. If you have to use a weather changer just to check Rain teams, I think they are broken.

Manaphy
Manaphy has 100/100/100 defenses, which makes it hard to kill. For example Manaphy can survive Nattorei's Power Whip with Stealth Rock (71.9 % - 84.8 %) without any HP EVs. Offensively, 100 base speed and 100 base special attack are nothing special, but they're still good stats, especially with this bulk.
Manaphy's Water type is very useful. It gives it setup opportunities on a lot of common Pokemon, such as Heatran. Offensively, Manaphy gets the good coverage of Water-type moves. Manaphy's movepool isn't very big, but it has all it needs. Surf + Ice Beam + Energy Ball get good coverage, Rest heals it completely in Rain and Tail Glow is a great +3 boost to its special attack.
Manaphy benefits a lot from the rain : Its STAB is boosted, it gets this instant recovery, and it is immune to status. It can't be paralysed, it can't be poisoned, and even Darkrai can't put it to sleep. With the team preview, if you switch Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Ninetales on Manaphy, it can predict you and use Surf or Tail Glow instead of Rest.
You often have to rely on revenge killing to beat Manaphy, and Manaphy's good bulk, lack of weakness to priority moves and instant recovery makes revenge killing a hard task.

I'm nominating Swift Swim and Manaphy, but the most important is to weaken Rain Offense, which is broken. If the Drizzle nomination is accepted and not Swift Swim and Manaphy, I support banning Drizzle.
 
Weather Inducing Abilities- The real problem behind Swift Swim, Chlorophyl, and Sand Throw is the weather that initiates these abilities. There are many Pokemon that have abilities to take advantage of weather, but instead of banning those abilities, the weather induction ability should be banned instead. Doryuuzu, Kingdra, and Venesaur all become much more tolerable without the existence of perma-weather. Now that all non-legendaries weather inducers have second abilities this would mean that they would still be useable in non-Ubers. Of course all weathers would have to be banned to create balance.

Sleep Moves- Even though Darkrai is quite a monster, what's really threatening is how the new sleep mechanics work. Having a sleeping Pokemon is now dead weight as switching them out means the sleep counter is reset, but keeping them in means you could easily get set up on.

Inconsistent- I think everyone else covered this quite nicely and my reasoning is about the same as everyone else's: it's easy to abuse, the reward is quite high, and it takes some skill out of the game. As a user of Inconsistent I recognize just how good this ability is. The only real way to stop an Inconsistent user is essentially to react the first turn one is brought out.
 
It’s time to post my nominations.
This is going to be quite a wall of text, I think.



Doryuuzu
:

Let’s begin with 604 speed in sandstorm. This thing is the fastest Pokemon
in the OU Metagame if you have a Sandstorm running, and if you want to
outspeed it, you need a Choice Scarf on a Pokemon that has a Speed stat
of at least 404; only Electrode, Ninjask, Agirudaa and Deoxys can even
reach that number, and if we’re honest, we know that every single one of
them except for maybe Deoxys-Speed is useless with a Choice Scarf.
Therefore, you cannot rely on outspeeding the mole if you want to get rid of it.

This brings us to the next point: Priority revenge killing. Yes, I know that
Doryuuzu is weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, but calculations have
already been run on that. The only 2 Pokemon that have a chance to
revenge kill Doryuuzu with a priority move are Choice Band Azumarill and
Life Orb Technician Breloom. The latter is not yet released; the former is
one of the easiest Pokemon to predict in the game and is something I don’t
want to be forced to use just to counter one specific threat.

Oh, prediction! People say that Doryuuzu is easy to predict. While that
might be true, by no means does that mean he’s easier to play against.
Doryuuzus movepool is indeed limited, but he has everything he needs:
STAB Earthquake, which some consider the second or third best attacking
move in the game, Rock Slide for coverage and a flinch chance that might
bite you in the ass when you don’t expect it, Swords Dance to boost his
135 (!) base attack… Options for the last move are Metal Claw for a
secondary STAB and a chance to raise Attack even further, X-Scissor for
coverage and Return for another move with more than 100 base power. Oh,
and don’t forget Rapid Spin!

The last point that must not be overlooked is his secondary Steel-typing.
Doryuuzu is immune to both Thunder Wave and Toxic and has a 4x
resistance to Stealth Rock; not to mention all the other defensive benefits
that the Steel type has to offer.

Conclusion: Doryuuzu completely rolls over Heavy Offense teams, he only
needs a tiny bit of support to rampage through Semi-Offensive and
Balance-Teams, and he can muscle his way through Stall as well, thanks to
Swords Dance and his immunity to one of stalls main damage sources:
Toxic. With a Baloon, he doesn’t even get damaged by Spikes.
Considering all of these facts, my opinion on Doryuuzu is that it should be
banned to Ubers.



Shaymin-S
:

Oh boy. STAB Seed Flare with 120 base power and an 80% chance to lower
the targets Special Defense by 2 stages? That move alone pushes this
Pokemon towards the Uber line, but his 127 base Speed combined with a
STAB Air Slash, which has a 60% flinch rate, the fact that he can Leech
Seed- and Substitute-stall his counters, and his ability to carry either Earth
Power or a Hidden Power that severely damages all of his common
switch-ins is what throws him way over said Uber line.

Shaymin-S is easy to use and centralizes the game in a way that makes it less fun to play; and that is not what we want.

Darkrai
:

The new Sleep mechanics is what Darkrai probably enjoys the most this
generation. His Dark Void, which is without a doubt the second best sleep
move in the game, can already put one of Darkrais counters out of
commission, in most cases for the rest of the match. This fact alone forces
you, in a way, to use either a Pokemon that is immune to Sleep, or a very
good Sleep Absorber.

Speaking of what you can run in order to counter or get rid of Darkrai: Dark
Pulse and Focus Blast already give very close to perfect coverage. Please,
don’t tell me Focus Blast is unreliable; it might have 70% accuracy, but still,
it has 120 base power and more often than not results in a dead
Tyranitar / Heatran / whatever resists Dark Pulse. And if you really don’t
want to use Focus Blast: Darkrai also has access to Ice Beam, Thunderbolt,
Taunt, and a few other options that are useful. Oh, and let’s not forget
Nightmare, which kills any Pokemon that is asleep in 3 turns, combined with
Darkrais Bad Dreams ability. On one last little note, he also is able to learn
Trick.

But putting your counters for him to sleep is not the only thing Darkrai can
do: He might also set up with Nasty Plot (or the “traditional” Calm Mind)
and proceed to sweep your team afterwards. The ease Darkrai can do this
with is a sign for the fact that he still is too much to handle for the
standard OU Metagame.



Deoxys
:

4 forms, 14 arms. Approximately 56 useable movesets.

Seriously, the 2 offensive forms have already been discussed here, so I’ll
put the Speed form and the Defense form under the magnifying glass.

Deoxys-Speed might not be such an immediate offensive threat, but what
makes playing against him a pain is the fact that he simply is the best
possible lead. He has everything that a good lead needs, which is why he
will always be way too centralizing in Gen V if he stays in OU; and
centralization makes a game less fun to play, facing the same things over
and over again makes the experience boring.

Team preview is worth mentioning here: If you notice that the opponent
has something that might actually be able to stop your Deoxys-Lead from
doing its job, you can simply use something else in the lead spot and use
Deoxys later.

Speaking of using him later, Deoxys-Speed also has quite a few other
options he could annoy or even sweep your team with. He can go physical,
special or mixed, and is one of the best revenge killers around. And when
you think you’re prepared for the offensive sets, a defensive set which
some consider “gimmicky” can roll over you under the right circumstances,
which are relatively easy to set up.

Okay, the Defense form is our next stop: While some players say that he is
underwhelming at what he does, he has characteristics that are comparable
to offensive sweepers: If he sets up, he becomes extremely dangerous.

What I mean by that becomes clear when you take a closer look at his
defensive movepool: This thing gets Cosmic Power, Recover, and Toxic. It
doesn’t stop here, but those are, in my opinion, Deo-D’s main selling points.
This Pokemon virtually has no things that can really hurt him once it gets
one or two Cosmic Powers under its belt, because it can still Recover off
the damage you dealt to it. Oh, you want to Toxic him? Magic Coat says
no.

Those characteristics fit the portrait of a defensive Uber quite well, if the
“old” portrait of an Uber still applies.



Shadow Tag:
Short one. The ability destroys one of the main concepts of competitive Pokemon.

The Encore-Nerf people have been talking about is not really that big of a
deal, since it still gives you at least one free turn, which is all you need to
make your opponents Pokemon faint.

Shadow Tag Shanderaa and Gochiruzeru take this ability to a whole new
level once they’re released, since they can use it to set up on a Pokemon
without it being able to escape.

Switching and, to a lesser extend in Gen V, countering has always been a
core element of playing Pokemon in a competitive manner, and this ability
completely undermines that.



Inconsistent:
I’d like to quote a post from smogon user Xing at this point:
“This ability is absolutely broken. I was down to 1-6 with Glalie (!!) remaining.
I used protect to get a +2 Evasion and swept. “
This, my friends, is what sums it all up. We need to get rid of this asap.



Manaphy
:

In Manaphy, we have a Pokemon that can set up its own Special Attack to
+6 in just two turns. While that on its own already is dangerous, Manaphy
can use Rest, which, in the Rain, heals it completely without any drawbacks
whatsoever.

Some players have been mentioning how easy it is to revenge kill Manaphy.
The word easy is, first and foremost, an exaggeration in this case, and
while it might still be semi-easy to take out a Tail Glow Manaphy with a
strong Thunderbold / Thunder / Leaf Storm / Power Whip, keep in mind that
Manaphy can also run a defensive set, heavily investing in its Bulk!
Suddenly, your revenge killer only deals 50-85% and has to take a Surf
boosted by Rain and STAB and possibly one or two Calm Mind boosts – and
the fact that Manaphy might still be able to use Rest on the next Pokemon
you send out against it.

Politoed and Manaphy have already become greatest friends in this
generation, probably for a good reason. Politoed brings the Rain that
Manaphy needs oh so much in order to be such a monster.
The decision whether Manaphy or Politoed should feel the force of the Ban
hammer is a very hard one – but for now, I’d say we should bring Manaphy
back to Ubers and give Rain a second chance. The other Rain sweepers can
be addressed later, in Suspect Testing Round 2, because unlike Manaphy,
they all have counters that don’t need to be over-specialized in order to be
effective in the metagame.
(Just a little side note you can feel free to ignore, setting up Toxic Spikes really messes
up Rain-based teams!)





Snow Cloak / Sand Veil:
Suicune used Ice Beam!
But it missed!
The foes Garchomp used….
…and that’s the last thing my team remembered.

I’m sorry for Garchomp if banning his only ability means that he has to stay
in Ubers until he is available in the Dream World, but in my opinion, it’s
necessary. The same thing goes for Froslass, even though her stats make
her less of a problem than Garchomp.

These two abilities bring an undesirable and unnecessary luck factor to the
table of competitive Pokemon, and they technically even violate Evasion
Clause, given the right circumstances. For that reason, we should keep
them out of Standard OU.



Latias
:

Ouch, having Latias in OU brings back bad memories of Gen IV. While Latias
cannot be described as an absolute offensive terror (even though she can
run sets that turn her into one), my problem with her was not that he is
difficult to counter or too strong on the offensive side. What bothered me
is the fact that she centralized the game around herself. People complained
about every team looking too similar to the previous one they faced, and
that was the case. DD Mence kicks your ass when he sets up -> Use Scarf
Latias. Opponent might have Scarf Latias as well -> Use Tyranitar.
Opponent might have Tyranitar as well -> Use Scizor, who can also revenge
kill Salamence and Latias. Oh, I need a Bullet Punch Resistance! Use
Metagross / another Steel type with a handy Dragon Resistance. Hm, the
lead slot is still not taken… <Insert random suicide-SR-Lead>.

The banning of Latias broke that vicious circle, and after Salamence was
send to the rough fields of Ubers as well, the fog of centralization lifted.

And there, my fellow smogonites, you have the reason why I want to see
Latias being sent back to where she began her journey.
If you read that paragraph, you can also figure out my opinion on Latios as
well.

Oh, and a little footnote on those two: smogon was always against the
“How many restrictions do we have to make to an Uber Pokemon until it is
useable in OU”-thing, but that’s exactly what happened to Latias last Gen.
The Lati twins and Soul Dew belong together like our lungs and Oxygen,
they’re not meant to be forced to work without it.





Conclusion:
We have around 250 competitively useable Pokemon in Gen V, and the OU
metagame already starts centralizing around… let’s say 20. Something is
wrong here.




Phew, that makes 4 pages in a Word-Document.



Merry Christmas.
 
I post long posts all the time and I don't get the sheer length of some of these nominations...

Anyways, I believe that the standard game will be much improved with the ban of the ability Inconsistent and the Pokémon Darkrai, Deoxys-A and Shaymin-S. The common problem with all of these (other than maybe Deoxys-A) is the high variation in results between two or more significantly likely scenarios, which puts an unhealthy emphasis on the RNG rather than skill. This phenomenon is obvious in Inconsistent and Shaymin-S and more subtle but still present in Darkrai.

Darkrai's problem is not just with its sleep move Dark Void (though that is a huge part of it) but with just about all of its other awesome qualities. Its offense capabilities are incredible, and its bulk isn't exactly bad. It's countered almost entirely through boosting Speed or through equally suspect Pokémon such as Shaymin-S. In fact, I would say that its largest weakness is the low accuracy of Dark Void and Focus Blast. While I'd normally say that this makes Darkrai rather unreliable (which I'll admit that it is slightly), when the moves actually hit they destroy just about everything that they need to. This creates the high-variation situations mentioned at the beginning.

Shaymin-S is a more obvious case of high result variation. Consider that an opponent who is 3HKOed by Air Slash stands a ~28% probability of losing, and two ganging up on the same Shaymin-S stand a ~8% probability of losing. That's the kind of scary prospect that a "check" to a Serene Grace Pokémon faces. What really sets Shaymin-S apart from other Serene Grace Pokémon, however, is its much better ability to force such scenarios. While Jirachi runs into Heatran or Magnezone and is stopped cold about 99% of the time, Shaymin-S can run one of at least three different sets, all of which impose different versions of the scenario on different Pokémon. Even worse is that its best checks, typically specially defensive Steel-types, tend to be easy to lure and heavily damage. As a final insult, Shaymin-S's 127 Base Speed allows it to function as a fantastic anti-metagame Pokémon in its own right, checking many of the other powerful threats in the game. Shaymin-S not only imposes a highly luck-reliant scenario; it demands it.

In terms of luck-based elements of the game, the most obvious of them all is Inconsistent. Inconsistent Pokémon can definitely checked by sheer force from super-effective moves or very powerful attackers such as Manaphy, but even those checks are susceptible to being trampled on with just a little bit of luck. The dumb thing about Inconsistent is that the possible results of its use run through the whole spectrum between getting KOed without a fuss and annihilating the opposing team - slowly and painfully, I might add - all with very significant probabilities of occurring. The detriment to a skill-based game that Inconsistent introduces is thus much more than that coming from OHKO moves or even Evasion moves. It is also much more powerful than the infamous ability Speed Boost, because while the effective return of Speed Boost diminishes over time, that doesn't happen at all for Inconsistent, because it will have multiple stats to choose from to boost. Sure, it is an inconsistent strategy, but so is everything that opposes it. Every team becomes a bad team (by virtue of being inconsistent) in the face of this ability. It must be banned.

Deoxys-A is very different from my other nominations because I nominate it based on its extreme effect on risk-reward scenarios. Deoxys-A can KO just about everything in standard given the chance, and this means that it creates a clutch situation automatically every time it comes in. This becomes especially volatile in the early game, before each opponent has the other figured out. I'm all for high-stakes Pokémon, but something this extreme seems bad for the game to me. People like to bring up Scizor, but anyone who's used Scizor knows that it uses any excuse that it can get not to use Pursuit, and an immediate KO threat if Deoxys-A doesn't switch out often provides just that. And if Deoxys-A does escape, it can easily find the space (through revenge killing) to start its rampage all over again. I believe that standard will be better off without this Pokémon.
 
Hi! Unfortunately did not reach 1400, but here are my nominations!

Drizzle: No matter how many pokemon are eliminated because of it permanent Rain will never cease to be too strong. Some say only Manaphy and Kingdra are the ones worth using but if it comes to thier leave, others will soon fill their place. It is just too strong and too devastating to apprehend a team of Swift Swimmers who only need a turn to set up and sweep.

Incosistent: While Smogon tries to eliminate the luck factor from pokemon as much and as appropriate as possible, this new ability is just what it is against. After the use of Protect, if the user receives a boost to either Speed or Evasion, it can proeceed to out-stall, then later sweep (with the help of Attack/Special Boost). The only way to fully get rid of such a pokemon is either by Roar/Whirlwind, which fails on if it is the last pokemon and the move's accuracy is affected by Evasion boost, Perish Song, but which tales three whle turns in which time they can switch (and something else I cannot remember). All this ability doing is abusing luck which is not what we here at Smogon approve of.

Deoxys-All Forms: There is not point of banning just one form, Deoxys is so destructive in its Attack form, faster than anything else (besides another Deoxys) without a Scarf and even faster than most scarfers and pokemon with +1 Speed, this pokemon is one of the best revenge killers which usually posseses the boltbeam duo together with Psycho Shock and Superpower can switch in and revenge kill just about any pokemon. The Speed form and the Defence form are also too good supportively as they have pretty much every set up move any supportive pokemon could have.

Shaymin-s: 127 Base Speed, Serene Grace and STAB possession of both Seed Flare and Air Slash, even Blissey and Nattorei have met thier match. Another pokemon which relies heavily on luck factor and can effectively execute so with its blazing speed, even being faster than Darkrai. Only priority and revenge killers can touch it, but it even uses the devastating sub sets which allow it to linger on further into the game. This pokemon has no perfect counter and will stay that way.

Darkrai: With the new Sleep Mechanics, Darkrai can use Dark Void on any pokemon (except those with sleep preventing abilities) and then switch to the pokemon's appropriate check or counter, the opponent has no choice but to switch which means they will have to begin their Sleep Count again after the pokemon switches back in (also Bad Dreams gives a little hand). Not only this but it has 125 Base Speed, enough to outspeed almost any pokemon and also has the move Focus Blast with its Dark STAB Dark Pulse to get a clean neutral coverage on all pokemon but few. Further coupled with an incredible 135 Special Attack and access to Nasty Plot, which means game over for even Blissey. This pokemon certainly does not belong in OU and is far from being over used.

Manaphy: Even without Rain by its side, Manaphy has access to Tail Glow which boosts its Special Attack by not 2, but 3 thanks to new mechanics. The job is still well done without Rain, but to a lesser extent, and if (if is the key word here) Drizzle will not be around, Damp Rock Rain Dancers will still, and it is just to much trouble to have it around. When in the Rain however, together with Hydration and its ability to use Rest and wake up the next turn, get +3 Special Attack in one turn and even run a bulky variant, only those both faster and that can deal very hard Super Effective damage can remove it from the field.

Thanks, and enjoy!
 
The list of qualified voters and first voting thread can be found here. I'm going to close this thread, but leave it stickied until voting is complete.
 
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