Weather and its effects on the metagame

Matthew · Oct 13, 2011

Whether we like it or not weather is here in the metagame for as long as we can tell. The suspect test as we know it is over; there might be something to balance out the metagame later, but for now we have what we call a balanced metagame. I don't care who says what at this point, but what really irks me beyond all belief is when people say, “there's no creativity anymore! It's the same X amount of pokemon on every team!” I hope to God that the people who say this are fucking high on crystal meth, because that's a pretty damn bold statement to make. It's even more bold because it's wrong; proclaiming a wrong statement as truth takes some balls to do, I'll give it that.

Look around the metagame. I'm filled in a world where Toxicroak and Gastrodon are solid pokemon to put on a team. I'm in a land where there are two different play styles, stall and offensive, and they branch off into five separate categories of their own (sand, sun, rain, hail, weatherless). Fuck, I couldn't be happier with how diverse we can make this metagame if we actually tried to give a damn. Take a look at Salamence. He's the perfect example of a pokemon that can fit in three different offensive teams. Sun, rain, and weatherless. In the sun Salamence can fire off super powered Fire Blasts that complement his Dragon STAB excellently. In the rain Salamence has a super powered Hydro Pump, which pared with Dragon (yet again) are wonderful in unison. Weatherless Salamence has even more options. Bulky sets, Wish, Mixed, the list goes on.

But not every pokemon has to use weather to their advantage. The causes of the weather metagame are simply opportunities for other pokemon to rise in the ranks. Despite never being used, Weavile is actually very wonderful in the current metagame. Outpacing Starmie, OHKOing Tyranitar with Low Kick, and with Swords Dance and LO Weavile dealing a good amount of damage to Ferrothorn. The issues Weavile honestly faces in standard OU? Conkeldurr and Scizor. That's honestly about it bar the random scarf users and Jirachi. But Jirachi is now investing more and more in SpDef over Def itself. Jirachi hates taking a +2 LO Night Slash. Another example of a pokemon who has benefited from weather even though it doesn't abuse it is Gastrodon. Being the pinnacle counter to rain and sand teams has made this pokemon go from zero to hero in no time flat. Also I'm going to throw Sharpedo out there, because without Drizzle it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is today.

The creativity doesn't just stop with using odd pokemon like Weavile and Sharpedo, however. Sets on pokemon are just as important as using pokemon themselves. I recently read an RMT where Grimm(correct me if I'm wrong) used Sunny Day Ninetales. Ninetales, being the fast summoner, and having a super effective no charge move (Solarbeam) against both Tyranitar and Politoed is amazing.

Overall I do like weather's input on the metagame. It has given time for creativity to happen if people try to break free of the standard team. I guess people don't realize that no matter how the metagame is structured there will be a standard team.

What I want from you, the posters in this thread, is to post about weather teams and about creative sets and pokemon that you use, and for what purpose do you use them. This isn't the same as I use fucking Raichu because I hate Jolteon. This is I use Salamence as the main Dragon-type on my sun team because x y z. This is because Tyranitar, Latios, and Ferrothorn are so high in the stats I use Weavile because it cleans them all up with the SD set. Things like that – but more in depth of course.

EpicTurtle · Oct 13, 2011

I personally love uses Lure Rotom-W. It was some gimmicky set I came up with that looked something like this:

Rotom-W @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump
- Toxic
- Pain Split

Basically, I use it to wear down common Rotom-W checks (I use it in Sand, but I think it's better in Rain). I mean Ferro still counters it, but since every Rotom-W is running HP Fire, not many people use Ferro as a switch in. Gastrodon, Lati@s and Bliss/Chansey don't enjoy getting Toxic Stalled. But the main purpose of using Rotom-W as a Toxic staller is because no steels (bar Ferro) is going to enjoy getting a boosted Hydro Pump (via Rain) to their face. So you can spread Toxic and sweep with a Tornadus when the foe's team is whetted down.

Yes, a lot of people say Toxic Stall is dead, but honestly, not a lot of people use Heal Bell anymore and again, Toxic Stall's main problem was Steels, and Rotom-W counters most Steels anyways.

yee · Oct 13, 2011

Thank you! I love to see someone say that standard teams aren't a result of a lack options, but people just using the same teams over and over again.

Rain is one of my favorites to take advantage of. Dragonite and Lati@s gaining an extra STAB is sweet and opens up a bunch of possibilities for both of them. Rain abusing LO MixNite with Hurricane/Aqua Tail/E speed/Roost offers the ability to 2HKO almost anything while having incredible utility. Im messing with a support Reflect/Roar/Surf/Roost Latias right now and the extra water STAB is cool to hit stuff like Terrakion and Landorus with. Weather Ball Roserade gives me a great excuse to not use shitass Sleep Powder. Blasting stuff with Thunder is an incredible feeling in general.

As a stall player I really enjoy weather in the meta. Offense vs. stall is a nice clash and I get to see that more often, and it adds another layer of strategy when walls like Tentacruel get nailed by a timely switch into Sand or Hail. Rain gives handy fire resists to stuff like Nidoqueen and Gliscor.

The only shit I would like to see gone weather-related is Sand Veil/Snow Cloak. Those pokes get lucky with it way too often.

Pocket · Oct 13, 2011

Couldn't have said it any better, Gen. Empoleon. Bravo!

Gen Empoleon said:
what really irks me beyond all belief is when people say, “there's no creativity anymore! It's the same X amount of pokemon on every team!” I hope to God that the people who say this are fucking high on crystal meth, because that's a pretty damn bold statement to make. It's even more bold because it's wrong; proclaiming a wrong statement as truth takes some balls to do, I'll give it that.

Yea, these people haven't played much Pokemon from past gen. Otherwise, they would know that in any gen "lack of creativity" becomes a problem, regardless of weather. It takes an extra mile to come with something creative and effective. It doesn't even have to be big changes, just small tweaks, like Sunny Day Ninetales.

And it really doesn't take much balls for people to spout wrong things as truth. People do it all the time, unfortunately, to protect their pride or something.

I honestly think that Rain, the second-most common weather, is a welcome departure from the sandstream plagued metagame we had for 2 generations. Those residual damage really puts a damper on sweepers and tanks alike that are not immune to the barrage. Rain counteracts this negative effect, and lets a separate subset of tanks and sweepers to shine, as you've mentioned. People complain that Rain limits the use of mons, but the only usage its limiting is really Fire types (Heatran). Sandstream was equally or even more limiting.

It's just my personal example, but my Gyarados would suck at tanking hits if sandstream was the default weather. My SubCMPassing Celebi would be a pretty shitty idea in sand. Once forgotten abilities, such as Hydration, Dry Skin, and Chlorophyll has actual contextual relevance, now. I'm glad that we have alternative weathers to counteract sandstorm and let other Pokemon to shine. If anything, weather diversified our game.

Matthew · Oct 13, 2011

Latias is one of those pokemon that it's kind of sad to see it isn't used more. Honestly I'd say it's quite a bit better overall than Latios as a whole. Something someone used against me once was Reflect Type Latias. It stops against that annoying Scizor U-Turning and Bullet Punching for a KO. On top of that it stops Tyranitar cold since dark is ineffective against dark. While losing your Dragon-type STAB is pretty sad since the set is: Recover Reflect Type Calm Mind Dragon Pulse. Either way a +6 Dragon Pulse, even unSTABed is pretty amazing. It stops basically all weather summoners cold. A lot of other things too.

Lady Shinki · Oct 13, 2011

I tested an anti-weather Nidoking on my sun team to modest success: it slices through most defensive, resistance-based teams like butter (though it's hard-stopped by Chansey and Blissey, it can beat almost anything else with the appropriate move):

Nidoking @ Life Orb
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
Modest / Sheer Force

Thunder/Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Earth Power
Flamethrower/HP Grass

With Thunder and a Modest nature, it cleanly 1hko's Politoed and Hippowdon with the respective moves. It 2hko's TTar with Earth Power, and 1hko's Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. Bulky Waters in Sand stop this set cold (think Gastrodon), though it still can reliably 1hko most bulky water-types in Rain. Thunderbolt can 2hko most bulky waters, even the highly specially defensive ones like Vaporeon and Milotic. Flamethrower 2hko's 252/252 Sassy Ferrothorn in rain, though Earth Power is a 3hko already, so HP Grass can instead be fit in to 2hko Gastrodon and have a move to adequately hit Rotom-w.

Nkululeko · Oct 13, 2011

Bog standard teams are the result of uncreative minds. Pokemon is supposed to be an virtual sand box where kids learn to mix and match and throw new pokemon sets together. It's made to spur creativity in people, like this guy.

Leafeon @ Choice Band
Chlorophyll
Adamant or Jolly
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 Def
-Leaf Blade
-X-Scissor
-Retaliate
-Roar

I know what you're thinking. Coverage issues, yes. Trouble hitting Fire types, definitely there. Needs Sun to work, of course. Choiced Roar, wtf? It's crazy but it worked, if we take this in perspective. It was Round 3 or 4, Sun was badly underrated. Nobody saw it coming and it still cleans up nicely. It's speed in Sun tops out at a ridiculous 634 allowing it to:
1) Force your opponent to rack up some serious hazard damage end game and
2) Outspeed and dent everything. Not to mention having one of the better Retaliates in the game now that Excadrill's gone.
It also wrecked Latios and Latias (which I'm glad to not see, it's such a pain to take down at times).

It's a seemingly terrible set, but at least people were trying. A flood of people copy pasting teams came rather recently because there was more diversity in the matches a while back (probably again now) and if you don't believe me may I say three words. Belly Drum Slowbro. I know, wtf, but it wrecked my team and you would've never thought of it, be honest. There are really creative people out there (Boltbeam Specs Ttar, it's out there and I don't know why but it is) but they get overshadowed by the falsely-perceived horde of copy-cats. Look in the nom threads now and you can see a Rachi set Pocket made to complement Volcarona (probably not weather but concept's the same)

And just for the record, skrew whoever made a fully Sp Def Volcarona, just saying, I hate you and so does the one non-toxic Jellicent I ever used.

Tomahawk · Oct 13, 2011

Something I really like to use is Agility Empoleon in the rain; it lost its Petaya Berry from Gen 4 to Gen 5, but rain more than makes up for it as you can now run a fourth moveslot while having a free Torrent; it's even better when you can switch it in on something that brings you down to ~20%. Agility up, and sweep with Surf / Ice Beam / Grass Knot. You can now also run a Life Orb with Excadrill gone. He gots a lot of free setup opportunities against the likes of Tornadus who always brings you in Torrent range with LO Hammer Arm but never KOes you, even with Stealth Rock. I suggest everyone to try him!

SoT · Oct 13, 2011

It adds to creativity and takes away from creativity in a sense. It makes certain pokemon do things you wouldn't necessarily expect, while at the same time hindering pokemon in a sense. I wouldn't say it's all positive or all negative, you'd be naive to believe such a thing. However, a sort of comfort zone has formed around the weathers and a "template team" for each one has been created and proven to work successfully. I'm not saying that it's the only way to win, but if you're looking for something that's effective and doesn't really need much effort/thought put into to it don't look any further.

Recently diving into this game (last two months or so) this is just kind of how I've perceived weather and it's role. I've used that standard rain/sand team, and I've used some creative teams. Still want to try out sun, but that's another story. Ultimately, it really just comes down to how you want to play the game. Go out and learn from trial and error until you come up with a brilliant product, or just go out with a cookie cutter team and ladder until you meet other teams exactly like yours and reach an impasse then get another team.

Tomahawk · Oct 13, 2011

One of the main things weather does imo is the boosting effects from sun and rain. You basically give a Pokemon either effectively three STAB moves or you increase the power of their STAB moves to x2.25. An excellent example of the first one is CM LO Latios, one of the most dangerous sweepers. With Psyshock / Dragon Pulse / Surf in the rain, there is very few that resist all its moves (really only Ferrothorn). Thought your Bisharp could wall me because he is immune to Psyshock and resists Dragon Pulse? Good luck taking a rain-boosted Surf! According to Honko's amazing calculator, the only mons able to not be 2HKOed are Ferroseed, Ferrothorn, Empoleon and 252/252+ Registeel! A good example for the second is Rotom-W. While 105 base Special Attack isn't all that threatening, his dual STAB gives you a lot of trouble in the rain! Double boosted Hydro Pump will decimate even resistors. The only things that can really wall something like Choice Specs Rotom-W are bulky Grass-types and bulky Dragon-types.

I've also been noticing that teams I use without at least two bulky Water-resistances and at least one bulky Fire-resistance don't work. If you don't have something to switch in on Specs Politoed you won't be able to win a lot of matches.

PK Gaming · Oct 13, 2011

I hate to be "that guy" Gen, but Salamence isn't the perfect example of a Pokemon who benefits in weather. In fact, its the opposite weather has hurt Salamence's viability. Its actually a poor choice for all 3 weathers. In the case of rain, sure you gain a boosted hydro pump, but it doesn't let you muscle your way through any of your checks or counters, its a wasted slot. In the sand, you take residual damage, which Mence loathes (especially when combining that with a SR weak and LO recoil) sun is pretty for Salamence, because it boosts fire blast but shit when was the last time you saw a "good" sun team use Mence? The majority of them prefer Dnite for that awesome bulk and smexy ability. To me, Salamence is that purl=http://www.craigharper.com.au/uploaded_images/moustache.jpg]guy who claims that he could ace any class if "bothered to study."[/url]

Dragonite on the other hand is downright vicious in all 3 types of weather. It can run a dozen of silly rain sets (offensive, mixed, defensive, choice band, etc) and Hurricane is stupid good. We've all been salted out by Hurricane, that confusion can win games... Its "ok" in sand, but its limited to using Choice Band or sets that run leftovers because of the SS recoil. Its really good on sun teams for obvious reasons. It can switch into a few pokemon who give sun trouble most of the time, it gets a major fire boost (Hi bronzong, high skarmory meet my +1 sun boosted fire punch)

The sum it up, Dragonite embodies rhe "usable in 3 different types of weather" + additional types of play like rain stall (which mence cannot even hope to replicate). It's superior to Mence in almost all circumstances. The only set that Mence does better than Dragonite is the LO mixed set which still has like no counters.

I agree with your other points though, there's a lot of variety in BW OU and you kick ass with pretty much anything.

My set of choice nowadays is Nasty Plot Mew + a heal bell user
Mew @ leftovers
Synchronize
Modest
220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 speed
-Nasty Plot
-Psyshock
-Aura Sphere
-Fire Blast

Runs through stall / rain stall teams that lack Quagsire. And the coup de grace? When you beat Chansey or another annoying wall (after being inevitably statused) you can switch back to your heal bell user (in my case I used Chansey) and attempt to sweep again. I opted for Fire Blast because Flamethrower is pretty weak in the rain...

Bad Ass · Oct 13, 2011

Mew is the best defensive pivot / wall / whatever you want to call it in the game. You can fit it on any balanced team. Any Stall team. ANY team. Taunt / Will o Wisp / Softboiled / Ice Beam with Max defense and HP completely smashes the metagame, yet Mew is still UU. It beats Tyranitar (even Choice Band cannot 2HKO [or can hardly 2HKO] with Crunch after a burn...), CB Scizor, CB / Lum DD Dragonite (not switching into the second, though), Ferrothorn, all of standard stall minus....Politoed?, and pretty much anything else you can think of. It can also get surprise KOs on random Dragonite and Gliscor because of Ice Beam (which is >>>>> Seismic Toss). Seriously, the only things that can truly break through this bad boy are Latios, Gengar, and Rotom-W...and none of them enjoy a burn without reliable healing.

tl;dr Defensive Mew is the best Pokemon in the metagame, hands down, bar none, whatever. Go use it.

Tomahawk · Oct 13, 2011

To understand the effect of weather on the metagame, I decided to take a successfull DPP OU team, use it in BW OU, and see if it had a lot of trouble with weather. The team I decided to go with was twash's This Team Is Kind Of A Big Deal. It didn't have a dedicated Focus Sash lead like Azelf or Aerodactyl, and neither did it have a Rotom-A, meaning I had to replace it (which is really hard, there's not really a similar Ghost in Gen 5). However, before playing I made one change: I changed Heatran's Shuca Berry to an Air Balloon. After some testing, I realized rain was manageable, but still gave me a fair share of trouble. Even though I had a large amount of 4 Water resistances, Starmie and Salamence aren't really bulky, and Vaporeon was Thunder bait (though admittedly it was pretty good against rain teams). Shaymin also was 2HKOed by Specs Politoed, meaning it fell rather easily to the likes of Specs Rotom-W and Specs Starmie. Specs Tornadus also completely decimated this team; it 2HKOed everything on the team; Life Orb was even more threatening seeing as he could OHKO Heatran with Focus Blast / Hammer Arm and Tailwind lets him outspeed Jirachi.
Then there's sun. Heatran was my main weapon against sun, but sun teams that don't carry a Heatran counter are really rare. I also had a Salamence. However, I was 6-0ed by a Swords Dance Sawsbuck. I was also 6-0ed by a well played Dugtrio paired with a Growth Venusaur. Scarf Darmanitan could also spam Flare Blitz when Heatran was gone and 2HKO / OHKO everything.
Finally, there's sand. Landorus was very troublesome. Outspeeds everything and KOes with Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice / Stone Edge bar Shaymin. Terrakion was even more troublesome; Choice Band Terrakion had an easy time spamming Stone Edge or Close Combat.

However, this team faired much better against weather than I expected, especially with a Dragonite over Salamence, so this actually changes my view a little; from having to carry a dedicated weather counter to changing to having a team with good synergy. I'll test other teams later.

Matthew · Oct 13, 2011

I beg to differ PK. I've used Mence in all three of the weather teams I listed (I don't know why you brought up sand, I wouldn't use Mence in sand) and it worked out rather well. It's faster than Nite I've always found Intimidate to be much more reliable than Multiscale. Most people leave Dragonite for rain and weatherless teams, I mean who wouldn't with STAB Hurricane and Sub DD everywhere. Dragonite is a sweeper for those teams, and Salamence's job, as it has always been amazing at, is a wall breaker. Give it a try and see if you like it, what's the harm?

Tomahawk · Oct 13, 2011

I agree with Gen. Empoleon. Dragon Dance / Outrage / Earthquake / Fire Blast in the sun is one of my favorite sweepers, and is pretty much the only reason why I actually liked using sun. MixMence is also very very dangerous and a lot of teams are weak to it. Defensive WishMence is also really good on balanced or stall teams, checking a lot, phazing with STAB Dragon Tail, and providing Wish support.

PK Gaming · Oct 13, 2011

(Shrugs) I could have sworn you said rain, sun, sand (I need glasses)

Dragonite is a top tier Pokemon, that much is undeniable, (the fact that it was nominated by several users is a testament to this) and I can barely justify using Mence over something so strong. Intimidate more reliable than Multiscale? You can't be serious. In gen IV, Mence had a ton of Pokemon that it could actually switch into and own with Intimidate (Lucario, Breloom and Gyarados were way way more common) What can it possibly switch into in gen V? I can't think of a single Pokemon(other than ones I listed which are less common in BW) it wants to switch into that is affected by Intimidate in gen V, that can't threaten it with a powerful move or cripple it with status.

It doesn't Dnites bulk or ability, and its flat out worse when using a ton of sets. Dragonite can set up on ridiculously strong moves like Draco Meteor from Latios when rocks are off the field and sweep. Multiscale is THAT good, and a lot of top tier teams are abusing the heck out of Dnite because of that. I haven't seen a single one of these teams incorporate Mence because its usually flat out worse than Dragnonite. It cannot be used on rain teams period (seriously, using mence on rain teams is stupid) it loathes sand teams and its ok on sun teams. Its speed is really overrated too, base 100 isn't that special in gen and Dragonite doesn't really care about speed when it can bypass being OHKOed by just about anything. If Mence had base 110 speed things would be different, but it (like Dnite) also falls short before the fighting trio, the genie, the Lati twins and Starmie.

I just don't like how mentioned Salamence first over Dragonite in your OP. Thats like a taboo, its like saying in a gen IV np: suspect thread (before the mence ban) "Dragonite is a top tier sweeper, etc, etc" without giving ANY mention to Dragonite whatsover. It just rubs me the wrong way. True, I need to give credit where credit is due, when it comes to wallbreaking Mence is better than Dragonite (although Dragonite isn't too shabby) and its mixed set still has 0 counters. Still, it isn't in the same league as Dragonite, who imo is the best dragon type in all of OU. No hard feelings dude, and if my entire post came off as abrasive I honestly don't mean any of it.

Smith · Oct 13, 2011

I'm not sure about you guys but I really perceive Abomasnow as a good 'weatherless' Pokemon if that makes sense. Since nobody runs hail, instead of just saying "okay fine sand/rain/sun teams have it your way" you can actually attempt to win the weather war. He has some good sets- Leech Seed + protect is really annoying and very good at stopping rain teams, Ice Shard is useful as always, and Wood Hammer can really surprise Tyranitar and the like. Sure SR weakness sucks but he's far from useless! Any time I run "hail" I'm basically using Abomasnow + 5 Pokemon with Leftovers or Magic Guard, so it isn't really hail per se. This is also good because if I lose the weather war, it's no big deal, it just means my opponent has an advantage but I'm not irrevocably fucked. Anyways if you know me I hate boring teams, so I'm using a variant of weatherless team but I don't want to spoil too much!

New World Order · Oct 13, 2011

PK, Dragonite wishes it could contribute the same offensive presence of Salamence. Yeah, so MixNite has no counters. Well MixMence has no switchins. Don't even bother coming up with a counter, just come up with a switchin. No? Yeah, I thought so. As well, offensive DD Mence outclasses DD Dragonite the only thing that offensive DD Dragonite has over DD Mence is Extremespeed. Even in that case, Extremespeed isn't strong enough to take out the common Salamence revenge killers like Landorus and Terrakion. As a result, Dragonite will fall to these pokemon as well and Extremespeed isn't helping it get past anything Salamence can't get past. Salamence's superior special attack means that it can run Fire Blast, which allows it to get by Skarmory, who could take Dragonite's fire punches unless in the sun.

Finally, Multi Scale, while undoubtedly a better ability than Intimidate, is not actually more reliable. For non Leftovers variants, sandstorm instantly shuts Multi Scale down. Versions such as MixNite and Offensive DD Nite in other words are screwed. Stealth Rocks and status will also screw over Multi Scale. Intimidate on the other hand, you know will work every time, unless its something like Metagross or (snigger) Hyper Cutter Gliscor. Intimidate allows Salamence to get up that first Dragon Dance, and if you've properly cleared the paths, one click of Dragon Dance often means game over. I don't think you've ever tried using a Salamence on the sun team. From my experience, the only sun sweeper more dominant than Salamence is Volcorona, which isn't saying much considering Volcorona is without a doubt the most dominant special sweeper in the game.

Of course, with the Bulky Offense theme of B/W OU, Dragonite is undoubtedly a better fit for most teams. Dragonite is also capable of running deadly Bulky Dance and Sub DD variants that Salamence wishes it could. However, to say Dragonite outclasses Salamence is pretty much blasphemy.

Pocket · Oct 13, 2011

Interesting suggestion, Smith :d. The fact that Abomasnow has the moves to threaten every weather inducer is a big plus. Although, I haven't really seen a full-blown Hail team really. Many of them pack a ScarfKyurem and maybe a Mamoswine or a water-type with Blizzard, but that's to the extent of abusing Hail in OU that I've seen thus far. I guess most Hail teams are more about disrupting opposing weather than abusing its own?

Dragonite is undoubtedly a top-tier dragon, rather than a second man's dragon. However, I don't think the metagame has changed much to hinder Salamence's performance, either. Salamence's base 100 Speed is still good for a head-start in Speed, reducing the numbers of Scarfers that can revenge-kill it (ie ScarfToed / Scarf Rotom / Scarf Kyruem / Scarf Darmanitan), and Intimidate is still a great ability to sponge physical hits. I think Salamence does offensive DD equally well as Dragonite. If Dragonite either lacked MultiScale or ExtremeSpeed, then Salamence would be much better to pull off the offensive DD.

Salamence is definitely a good example of a mon benefiting from the additional weathers. Sandstream hindered it greatly. I agree that Rain really doesn't help Salamence much, though, since it does rely on Fire Blast.

PK Gaming · Oct 13, 2011

Dragonite is undoubtedly a top-tier dragon, rather than a second man's dragon. However, I don't think the metagame has changed much to hinder Salamence's performance, either. Salamence's base 100 Speed is still good for a head-start in Speed, reducing the numbers of Scarfers that can revenge-kill it (ie ScarfToed / Scarf Rotom / Scarf Kyruem / Scarf Darmanitan)[/quote

I could always argue that Dnite can run jolly(lol) to outspeed scarftoed, Kyurem is nonexistant (it is) and all 4 of the can't do significant damage is Multiscale is in play. Also, the fact that Mence NEEDS to run a Naive nature (otherwise its 99% outclassed by Dragonite) is depressing enough. Dragonite is slower, significantly bulkier and stronger whereas mence is faster (the speed prior to boosting is honestly not that big of a deal) frailer, and weaker due to a +spe nature.

Intimidate is still a great ability to sponge physical hits. I think Salamence does offensive DD equally well as Dragonite. If Dragonite either lacked MultiScale or ExtremeSpeed, then Salamence would be much better to pull off the offensive DD.

Click to expand...

People keep saying that intimidate is a great ability on Salamence but nobody has provided me with a concrete example as to WHY its such a good ability on Salamence. Can you name any common Pokemon who get affected by Intimidate (besides the ones i've already mentioned) Besides, Mence is already frail, I hate switching it in except on immunities.

And finally, you're flat out wrong if you think Mence does Offensive DD better than Dnite. Look at these teams:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454642
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455569
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454481

Do honestly think Mence could replace Dragonite on any of these teams? All of the team owners praise Dragonite for its incredible ability to set up on anything, awesome bulky and power, in fact Blue Star went as far to claim that Dragonite is the most broken thing in the metagame. If that isn't indicative of its power, I don't know what is. Salamence can't provide for either teams nearly as well as Dragonite, its much, much, much worse offensive dragon dancer.

Salamence is definitely a good example of a mon benefiting from the additional weathers. Sandstream hindered it greatly. I agree that Rain really doesn't help Salamence much, though, since it does rely on Fire Blast.

Click to expand...

My point was that Dragonite was a better example in almost all cases, so whats the point of mentioning Salamence?

Matthew · Oct 13, 2011

Why would you bring up teams centered around Dragonite and then say, "can Salamence do this?" No, of course he can't. He doesn't have Multiscale or ExtremeSpeed. What we're saying, however, is that Salamence is a pokemon that can abuse a multitude of weathers. Saying, "Dragonite does it better," is a pretty bold statement. We didn't even talk about what specific set we're talking about here (though obviously we're talking about the best Salamence set, mixed). Can Dragonite run as good as a mixed set as Salamence can? Hell no. Can Salamence abuse rain and sun? Hell yes. Is Dragonite a better bulkier dancer? Of course.

MetaGross66 · Oct 13, 2011

I wouldn't exactly say Salamence is better when running a mixed set because its power is formidable, but it has to invest in speed to be effective leaving less EVs to be invested in its Attacking stats. Whereas, Dragonite can afford to invest in both its attacking stats because it doesn't care much for speed. It has its bulk, multiscale, and Extremespeed to rely on for some crucial 2KOs. I've used both, and tbh I've had more success running mixnite solely because it doesn't care about its speed, but can capitalize on its bulk forcing several switches early game and getting me at least one kill a game usually. Like PK said, Intimidate isn't that useful this gen. Seriously, I'm looking at the usage stats for September thinking what can Salamence switchin on that Intimidate would help with, and can't find a thing. It's either crippled by status or damaged so badly it only has time for about one/two attacks (which tbh is all it needs, but the opponent has time to easily play around it). Mixnite on the other hand wouldn't care as much if it was paralyzed or even burned (just gives the opponent more reason to stay in on an impending Draco Meteor...). Also, most attacks (provided you're in the lead position meaning multiscale is intact), won't OHKO. Seriously, it lives these crazy powerful Draco Meteors from stuff like Scarf Hydreigon, and even Ice Beams from Politoed aren't KOing. Whereas, when using Salamence in the lead spot I'd get forced out and lose momentum or fail to kill that Politoed and get OHKOed in return. Dragonite is 2KOing it with the combo of DM+E-speed while living the Ice Beam because of multiscale.

Edit: Idk, i'm just not convinced Salamence is better as a mixed attacker. It has to rely on 100 Base Speed which isn't that bad, but still pretty slow this gen (though banning thundurus and excadrill might have made things better for it).

Spork · Oct 13, 2011

Ehh, Bulky DD Dragonite has dire 4mms and I could never seriously use it to sweep. I do love mixed Salamence, although he has more of a love/hate relationship with weather (it just loves to nerf his Fire Blast or Hydro Pump or pile on the residamage). Salamence needs to be used in a weather team that complements him nowadays or it can be fairly easily walled or worn down by basic stuff like Bronzong and even Skarmory.

Paradoxus · Oct 13, 2011

My favorite Pokemon to use in Rain is Tornadus, hands down. First, I wan't you to look at how dominant a Flying-type move can be in the tier, it gets neutral on almost every Pokemon in the tier, pair that with a Fighting type move, and it as perfect coverage (I might be mistaken) with all of the top 53 (the real OU). Then, look at it's stats, 115 Speed, 125 SP.Atk, 115 Atk, and a PERFECTLY spammable Hurricane. Since Hurricane's ability to be spammed I seriously think that this is one of the best sets.

move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Focus Blast / Brick Break
move 3: Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Air Slash
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe

This thing is crazy under the rain, like I mentioned before Hurricane is amazingly spammable, and if you slap a Choice Specs on there, you have an extremely powerful Pokemon. Sure, it doesn't provide any synergy whatsoever, but you have 4 more Pokemon you can have on your team (Politoed has to be on there too)

Molk · Oct 13, 2011

Paradoxus said:
My favorite Pokemon to use in Rain is Tornadus, hands down. First, I wan't you to look at how dominant a Flying-type move can be in the tier, it gets neutral on almost every Pokemon in the tier, pair that with a Fighting type move, and it as perfect coverage (I might be mistaken) with all of the top 53 (the real OU). Then, look at it's stats, 115 Speed, 125 SP.Atk, 115 Atk, and a PERFECTLY spammable Hurricane. Since Hurricane's ability to be spammed I seriously think that this is one of the best sets.

move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Focus Blast / Brick Break
move 3: Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Air Slash
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe

This thing is crazy under the rain, like I mentioned before Hurricane is amazingly spammable, and if you slap a Choice Specs on there, you have an extremely powerful Pokemon. Sure, it doesn't provide any synergy whatsoever, but you have 4 more Pokemon you can have on your team (Politoed has to be on there too)

I too, love to use tornadus in the rain, i actually use life orb over specs and use hammer arm as my fighting move, but really tornadus is one of the best weather abusers imo.

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