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NOC Medieval Mafia - Game Over: Majora's Maskians Win
- Thread starter Ampharos
- Start date
I would like whoever had the MASK before last night to claim they did so, and then explain in full detail what it does.
Mafia got smart, I've got nothing to share today Under my understanding of the don't say anything given to you directly rule and walrein's statements on IRC, I can say it was due to some aquatic being playing music, which fits many Zora in Majora's Mask's description
If it matters, I was checking MK, since I'm not the only one who has had doubts about him in the past. Do I really need to explain why his inactivity and general noncompliance I found suspicious, even if I kinda thought he just doesn't care?
If it matters, I was checking MK, since I'm not the only one who has had doubts about him in the past. Do I really need to explain why his inactivity and general noncompliance I found suspicious, even if I kinda thought he just doesn't care?
billy posted before results were out.
GOD.KILL.
In other news, lmao Sam the vanillager.
I would ask you guys focus on other people until I am back to access my spread and properly defend myself. quoting large posts is almost impossible on this. but i am quite aware i am very suspicious since Sam flipped vanilla. tho i maintain you can tell less from village flip than maf flip.
anw, Suspiciousires: results plz - edit lmao @ your 'hook'. who were you GOING to check?
GOD.KILL.
In other news, lmao Sam the vanillager.
I would ask you guys focus on other people until I am back to access my spread and properly defend myself. quoting large posts is almost impossible on this. but i am quite aware i am very suspicious since Sam flipped vanilla. tho i maintain you can tell less from village flip than maf flip.
anw, Suspiciousires: results plz - edit lmao @ your 'hook'. who were you GOING to check?
So, im gonna read this thread before i can actually contribute here.
Expect another post sometime in 2 days time X_X
Expect another post sometime in 2 days time X_X
Yeti, you're ridiculous, and we're ridiculous if we keep letting you get off without suspicion. Other players have mentioned many times that of the active ones of us, one of us is probably mafia, and your case does not look good, at all.
I understand that you don't have access to a machine with which you'll be able to respond to long posts, so for now I'll let you know why I'm @@vote Yeti@@ing as concisely as possible. You singled in on a single player for almost the entirety of Day 1, led a lynch on him Day 2, despite him defending himself and acting in ways that reeked of town. Then when his substitute comes in and is totally unable to defend him(her?)self you continue the pressure, knowing full well that Cereza can't come up with a satisfying defense and will fold relatively easily. The lynch on Cereza was a cheap shot and it was an easy one for a mafia to make.
Then the day after you're directing suspicion to someone else immediately! Once again I understand that you can't respond in full quite yet and as such I understand if you don't respond to this post for a while.
I understand that you don't have access to a machine with which you'll be able to respond to long posts, so for now I'll let you know why I'm @@vote Yeti@@ing as concisely as possible. You singled in on a single player for almost the entirety of Day 1, led a lynch on him Day 2, despite him defending himself and acting in ways that reeked of town. Then when his substitute comes in and is totally unable to defend him(her?)self you continue the pressure, knowing full well that Cereza can't come up with a satisfying defense and will fold relatively easily. The lynch on Cereza was a cheap shot and it was an easy one for a mafia to make.
Then the day after you're directing suspicion to someone else immediately! Once again I understand that you can't respond in full quite yet and as such I understand if you don't respond to this post for a while.
I have a better lynch target, but I'm waiting to see if anyone will claim they had the mask.
I assume it was either stolen from a villager or stolen to a villager. In either of these cases the person who had it is likely to claim. If the mafia passed it to one of themselves, we won't see anything.
However, if the Mask is Majora's mask, then it may be a recruitment item.
I will give a full explanation once the person explains or once I feel he won't come out.
I assume it was either stolen from a villager or stolen to a villager. In either of these cases the person who had it is likely to claim. If the mafia passed it to one of themselves, we won't see anything.
However, if the Mask is Majora's mask, then it may be a recruitment item.
I will give a full explanation once the person explains or once I feel he won't come out.
I disagree that this is a good idea since we don't need you around to discuss you, and we should use all time that is available us to try to sort out this mess. However I would certainly not advise piling lynch votes until you've had a chance to defend yourself.
Quagsires didn't die, but considering his status as highly suspected among many prominent contributors to this discussion, that doesn't surprise me (since even if he is good they will just leave him alive to mislynch). Also, nice to see you back, DLC. Just making a note that Snike's death flavour was different for those of you who missed it. Also, if you check the death list, he's listed as:
Steven Snype Snike - William Shakespeare - Vanillager (holding the Parchment) - I can't remember but it was overkill N2
Which confuses me. Didn't he sort of accuse billy of stealing it? He retracted it later but whatever. Did you give it back to him or something, billy? Either way, the 'I can't remember but...' makes me suspect a wolf who can just change their flavour or whatever, though if that's the case idk why they wouldn't just mimic mafia flavour, so it could be mafia again since there was only one kill!
Or else a very very stupid vigilante.
Now I've covered the update, I still think Yeti has mostly behaved in a village way, and I cannot see why she would kamikaze herself on UncleSam*, unless it spiralled out of control too fast for her and she had to stick with it because it would look bizarre if she quit thinking Sam was scummy after popular opinion started agreeing he was scumwolf. However Sam flipping village makes me suspect at least one of billymills and Yeti and possibly zorbees (actually zorbees is the scummiest of the lot) is mafia, due to their previously-covered relationship (in the case of the former two) and separate pushes on Sam.
However I'd be very happy to see her defence when she returns from her irl engagements, since though honestly UncleSam was very scummy and I agreed with that, nobody should be letting her get off free as, and I quote her, 'the driving force behind that lynch'. Of course aska is right about her behaviour, which is what I was trying to convey to Ullar yesterday when he was defending it as purely pro-town (just trying to flush Ullar out here a bit since I think he might need to reconsider his stance)
I'm hesitant to just completely change my opinion on her because of this flip, though it does cast her actions in a bad light, because lynch -> counterlynch has picked off two villagers at a time in previous games, so I'm wary about automatically condemning her for anything I didn't already mention in my post.
Also interested in a proper explanation from billymills and zorbees about that informational lynch they attempted D1. I got a feeling from billymills he was trying to fish out reactions, 'ok'.
If anyone wants me to defend my feelings on UncleSam, which agreed he was a highly suspicious user especially in face of Cereza's behaviour post-subbing, ask.
* Oh oh oh. I would like to mention she repeatedly sort of 'forewarned' that this might happen, as if she almost... knew it wasn't a reliable lynch (putting it generously, the more obvious explanation would be 'knew it was a safe lynch for her') and didn't want to be seen distancing herself from it, which we would immediately jump on, add a bit of deniability with the uncertainty, while trying to let herself off the hook early in whatever way she could. I will look for posts to back this up if anyone wants, I want to fnish this post
I can confirm that Snike held onto the parchment until his death and that the original owner of the bell still has it. Both items are very real, as is the Mask.
I was trying to fish out reactions night 1 with that lynch on Unclesam. At the time I did not care if Unclesam was village, mafia, or otherwise because he was forcing a lot of conversation and creating a lot of reaction. No matter what he would have been a poor lynch target that early on day one. I'd have loved for ~5 votes to get on him in a hurry and then watch who believes the lynch is reasonable and who is still against it, however that never happened. I felt agreeing with zorbees' vote would be the best way to get a non-trivial number of votes on him, but I was definitely mistaken.
All of the reasons I thought Unclesam was a bad lynch no longer applied when Cereza subbed in, and Unclesam left an incredibly bad post right before he decided to sub out.
I don't have any strong opinions on Yeti, though I do think she has been rather against a Quagsires lynch, even if she calls him out as suspicious now. Again I have more info I'd like to discuss once I get a response about the Mask.
Edit: explaining the flavor of the persuade any other actions could be useful. However if you were hooked it is your choice whether or not to reveal the flavor, as knowing the flavor would imply you have a role.
I was trying to fish out reactions night 1 with that lynch on Unclesam. At the time I did not care if Unclesam was village, mafia, or otherwise because he was forcing a lot of conversation and creating a lot of reaction. No matter what he would have been a poor lynch target that early on day one. I'd have loved for ~5 votes to get on him in a hurry and then watch who believes the lynch is reasonable and who is still against it, however that never happened. I felt agreeing with zorbees' vote would be the best way to get a non-trivial number of votes on him, but I was definitely mistaken.
All of the reasons I thought Unclesam was a bad lynch no longer applied when Cereza subbed in, and Unclesam left an incredibly bad post right before he decided to sub out.
I don't have any strong opinions on Yeti, though I do think she has been rather against a Quagsires lynch, even if she calls him out as suspicious now. Again I have more info I'd like to discuss once I get a response about the Mask.
Edit: explaining the flavor of the persuade any other actions could be useful. However if you were hooked it is your choice whether or not to reveal the flavor, as knowing the flavor would imply you have a role.
@@Vote: UllarWarlord@@
Persuaded, etc.
Will still try and be productive though.
EDIT: Fixing the vote tags.
Persuaded, etc.
Will still try and be productive though.
EDIT: Fixing the vote tags.
Brammi
Curious and curiouser that Brammi is persuaded now, since if it was a mafia persuader you'd expect them to stick them to Leethoof after their blundering early reveal in order to minimise impact. In fact I have some vague ideas stirring in my mind but I will take it at face value for the moment.
billymills
Noticing a bit of distancing between billymills and zorbees in billy's response, though I refuse to believe they would be so dumb as to try that lynch in tandem. So if we take your explanation, billy, what did you think of zorbees' own vote for UncleSam?
Snike
UncleSam isn't the only villager who died, btw, though he happens to be the most interesting (Cereza too, I guess, but most of our information comes from UncleSam...). Still, we get more information on some users from his death, even if he hadn't posted reads in awhile.
Noting people's interactions with StevenSnike:
Noting Snike's interactions with people:
Analysis: In general all those initially positive receptions do not really offer much, I guess. A scum flip on someone would be really useful here! There was a clear consensus and so even scum would've had to go with the flow unless they seriously wanted to keep calling out Snype, which only Sam wanted to and we saw what happened there.
Staraptor Call was a little suspicious in #326 for his indirect (and, taking Snike at his word, incorrect) callout of Snike, which I must admit I didn't even pick up on until Snike did. And since Staraptor Call asked for timestamps when people accused him of it too -- OH WAIT, he's not here. Okay, can't really hold Ullar accountable for proof we'll never receive... still, Staraptor Call = Ullar, remember that.
I think it's obvious from #709 that I just had missed Snike's posts already explaining the things I asked (sorry), which I noted in my second section; I thought he was being way too cryptic. Still might have been suspicious if I had seen them for the reasons I listed but it's too late for me to tell now.
Evverything I directed at j-squared about his accusation of Snike holds, but consider this: if j-squared was trying to get him mislynched (assume scum), why did Snike then die last night? Answer: because j-squared is not scum, or if he is, because he didn't think he could get Snike lynched and was scared of him, or because his more experienced scumbuddies wanted to cover up what I pointed out, or because Snike was a good contributor but not one of the Yeti/Blue_Tornado/billy/zorbees/aska/etc. group (killing one of them would provide valuable flip data on all of them). So while this muddles up my read a bit, I am just way more suspicious of Ditto and his substitute j^2 now.
Unless wolf, I suppose, which is a little incriminating of billymills or anyone who knew anything about the Parchment (so lol basically anyone who can add two and two together, especially due to billymills AGAIN pointing out people holding items). Find it unlikely he would be killed for his item by the mafia, who have a thief, unless, again, wolf, who might not have a thief. I already talked a bit about the flavour. I direct everyone to #259, a hostpost that confirms the Parchment is now on the killer.
To the village thief, who I will assume exists unless all items are meant to end up in the hands of the mafia, finding anyone with the Parchment tonight means you found his killer, since you cannot pass items during the day (Walrein, #35). I doubt the mafia would be willing to get rid of such a valuable item if I am correct about its function, but they may attempt to pass it back to the village to cause confusion after tonight, since it's basically now the equivalent of a smoking gun with fingerprints.
Given Brammi's entanglement with two cleaned users, Snike and UncleSam, I would like to see Brammi talk a bit more and defend himself instead of deflecting, and you consider this me moving the spotlight onto Brammi slightly.
Of course his alliance doesn't mean Snike was right on all of his reads, but it's the best we've got. I feel that the most meaningful of Snike's relationships were his enmity with Brammi, his enmity with Ditto and j-squared, the brief exchange between him and Staraptor Call, his oscillating opinion on Quagsires, and his flopped suspicion of billymills. Also possibly his alleged relationship with B_T (j^2), though I honestly would like to see some evidence on that since I was just ctrl+fing Snike :s
QUESTION TIME!!!!
Curious and curiouser that Brammi is persuaded now, since if it was a mafia persuader you'd expect them to stick them to Leethoof after their blundering early reveal in order to minimise impact. In fact I have some vague ideas stirring in my mind but I will take it at face value for the moment.
billymills
How do you know?
Noticing a bit of distancing between billymills and zorbees in billy's response, though I refuse to believe they would be so dumb as to try that lynch in tandem. So if we take your explanation, billy, what did you think of zorbees' own vote for UncleSam?
Snike
UncleSam isn't the only villager who died, btw, though he happens to be the most interesting (Cereza too, I guess, but most of our information comes from UncleSam...). Still, we get more information on some users from his death, even if he hadn't posted reads in awhile.
Noting people's interactions with StevenSnike:
The first user to accuse StevenSnype was Sam, we all know now that was just villager-villager squabbling. Coronis in #59 too but... yeah, villager-villager too. Brammi voted him in #50 and criticised his joke attitude. Made a suspicious comment in that post about mislynching not being a bad thing (since mislynching is a great way to give scum number control and the whole 'we'll get information' thing I find to be a really vague way to pass off a lynch the person isn't confident in). askaninjask voted him in #79, honestly I found the whole ordeal sort of overblown but I can write it off as 'RVS', I guess...
Snike then popped up in #85. billymills defended both him and his accuser in #89. After a bit of back-and-forth UncleSam decided to let off on the pressure since Snike was contributing. Once Snike posted #103, aska backed down and unvoted (#133). Kaxtar posted his reads twice, most recently in #147, with a positive opinion of Snike overall. Despite being called out, Leethoof felt that he was making himself less suspicious (#152), which Rediamond echoed (#167). Sam was still railing against him but oh well, nobody's perfect. billymills was also positive on him in #164. Metal Bagon complimented his reads but was indecisive (#198).
After Snike's Brammi vote, B_T disagreed with him (#226) and requested he post more reads. Discussion then moved off Snike until #320, where user: zorbees called him out due to being 'under the radar', though he was hesitant to call him autoscummy. B_T agreed in #329, and UncleSam in #335. billymills prompted him for his opinion on aska/Yeti/zorbees (#322) along with some others. Staraptor Call called him out indirectly in #326 in his zorbees read: 'Shifting attention to Snike isn't scummy ... Anything that gets active lurkers to post is good by me.' Brammi responded to Snike's repeated pressuring with 'Same goes for you snike. I expect better from you. Also your tunneling is noted, but that's a minor point.' (#394) billymills agreed with Snike about Ditto (#414, just a minor mention). zorbees called him a town-leaning mystery and suggested inspection (#419). billymills prompted Snike for his opinions on the lynch (#468).
Paperblade (#622, #624) and an agreeing!Quagsires (#626) questioned Snike's suspicions of billy. billymills responded vaguely to Snike in #641. Riddles, though I think I get what billy was aiming at. WHOA massive accusation from j^2 aka Ditto in #660. 'B_T's scum buddy. Was a little thrown-off by your recent claim of information. I don't know why you would give info on your role without someone pressuring you. Seems a little over-eager. Scum, but possible noobville.' Scumbuddy eh. Then prompted zorbees for his thoughts on both B_T and billymills/Snike (#672).
THE DRAMA CONTINUES!!! j^2 then voted Snike in #699, claiming it is a prime informational lynch, scum-lean, etc. aska queried (#704) why Snike (and others) backed down so easily, which I take to mean him unvoting billymills. lkk asked Snike for an explanation of his vote (#705). I then agreed with j^2 to an extent, which I will discuss later (#709), but noted what j^2 did was dodgy.
j-squared defended his lynch on Snike in #760 with 'Knowing his alliance validates his claim of a thief for the mafia.' and 'Thinking back on this, wtf kind of claim is this? If there are items, of course the mafia is probably going to have a theif. Also, who can counter this info? The mafia isn't going to come out and say "He's lying! We don't have a theif!" Basically, it's a claim that makes him seem important and pro-village, and it is probably true, but it is really a safe claim that no one can dispute.'. Also 'I've already talked about the B_T/Snike connection, but he also went after Billymills, so it could shed some light on Billy as well. He's actually said some stuff after being relatively quiet, unlike MK who has said nothing.'.
THE END :(
Snike then popped up in #85. billymills defended both him and his accuser in #89. After a bit of back-and-forth UncleSam decided to let off on the pressure since Snike was contributing. Once Snike posted #103, aska backed down and unvoted (#133). Kaxtar posted his reads twice, most recently in #147, with a positive opinion of Snike overall. Despite being called out, Leethoof felt that he was making himself less suspicious (#152), which Rediamond echoed (#167). Sam was still railing against him but oh well, nobody's perfect. billymills was also positive on him in #164. Metal Bagon complimented his reads but was indecisive (#198).
After Snike's Brammi vote, B_T disagreed with him (#226) and requested he post more reads. Discussion then moved off Snike until #320, where user: zorbees called him out due to being 'under the radar', though he was hesitant to call him autoscummy. B_T agreed in #329, and UncleSam in #335. billymills prompted him for his opinion on aska/Yeti/zorbees (#322) along with some others. Staraptor Call called him out indirectly in #326 in his zorbees read: 'Shifting attention to Snike isn't scummy ... Anything that gets active lurkers to post is good by me.' Brammi responded to Snike's repeated pressuring with 'Same goes for you snike. I expect better from you. Also your tunneling is noted, but that's a minor point.' (#394) billymills agreed with Snike about Ditto (#414, just a minor mention). zorbees called him a town-leaning mystery and suggested inspection (#419). billymills prompted Snike for his opinions on the lynch (#468).
Paperblade (#622, #624) and an agreeing!Quagsires (#626) questioned Snike's suspicions of billy. billymills responded vaguely to Snike in #641. Riddles, though I think I get what billy was aiming at. WHOA massive accusation from j^2 aka Ditto in #660. 'B_T's scum buddy. Was a little thrown-off by your recent claim of information. I don't know why you would give info on your role without someone pressuring you. Seems a little over-eager. Scum, but possible noobville.' Scumbuddy eh. Then prompted zorbees for his thoughts on both B_T and billymills/Snike (#672).
THE DRAMA CONTINUES!!! j^2 then voted Snike in #699, claiming it is a prime informational lynch, scum-lean, etc. aska queried (#704) why Snike (and others) backed down so easily, which I take to mean him unvoting billymills. lkk asked Snike for an explanation of his vote (#705). I then agreed with j^2 to an extent, which I will discuss later (#709), but noted what j^2 did was dodgy.
j-squared defended his lynch on Snike in #760 with 'Knowing his alliance validates his claim of a thief for the mafia.' and 'Thinking back on this, wtf kind of claim is this? If there are items, of course the mafia is probably going to have a theif. Also, who can counter this info? The mafia isn't going to come out and say "He's lying! We don't have a theif!" Basically, it's a claim that makes him seem important and pro-village, and it is probably true, but it is really a safe claim that no one can dispute.'. Also 'I've already talked about the B_T/Snike connection, but he also went after Billymills, so it could shed some light on Billy as well. He's actually said some stuff after being relatively quiet, unlike MK who has said nothing.'.
THE END :(
Noting Snike's interactions with people:
We got some preliminary reads on Snike in #103. Another user to note B_T's now-famous 'jumpiness' (yes, B_T, and I'll qualify it for you if you like since Ullar quailed when you pressed him and backed down way too easily), but it wasn't really coupled with any accusation. Thought Paperblade, askaninjask, and Yeti were acting townie, called out Ditto very early on, couldn't read zorbees (YOU'RE NOT ALONE, BRO). His opinion on Brammi was indeterminate. Called out Coronis for echo chamber (we now know Coronis/wick were clean) and Leethoof based on his one post. Was mildly positive towards kok's first posts, prompted MK Ultra for an explanation, and wrote about billy: 'I don't get town vibes from him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's mafia.' Called out TL and Jalmont.
Called out Brammi in #163 for 'denying he jumped on both the kok and Snype wagons'. Noted more suspicious behaviour on the part of Brammi and voted him in #225. Still accusing Leethoof and somewhat TL and Rediamond (#229). Then disappeared again due to AP or something and reappeared in #360 to defend himself. Pointed out and rebuffed an apparent callout on active lurking from Staraptor Call, provided an instinctive town read on zorbees, a hesitant town read on Yeti (noted she was hard to read), and called aska misguided (which I will take to mean town). 'Skeptical of billymills and B_T for trying to provide some cover for Brammi. It doesn't come across as buddying, but I am not really getting a good vibe for it. This might be tunnel-speak, however.' Called out Brammi for his zorbees vote and Crux too (#371). Called out TL and MB for inactivity and made a remark that Ditto's posts were coming across as 'artificial' (#376). Still going on about Brammi (#390) and makes a case for him as scum by dissecting his post. Positive read on Quagsires embedded and Yeti null read.
Upon billy's prompting, reiterates his Brammi lynch, votes Quagsires, and casts suspicion onto Staraptor Call (#472). This vote was removed upon Quags's claim.
Calls billy out (#621, #625) based on itemfishing, using his night result (#623), which Paperblade requested elaboration on (#622) then questioned how it incriminates billy (#624). From this I deduce the Parchment let you ask questions and I apologise to Snike for missing the posts explaining his result since I was suspicious of him for not explaining it. ._. I now believe #623 was the reason for his death, though you can speculate re. Brammi and to a lesser extent billy, B_T, and Staraptor Call. Was demonstrating clear suspicion of billymills, echoed in #636. For some reason he was willing to accept billy's explanation since he unvoted (#693) and cast a vote on loudkirbyking for his indecisive shit while denouncing Ullar (with an attribution to stupidity, I think?).
Then he died.
Called out Brammi in #163 for 'denying he jumped on both the kok and Snype wagons'. Noted more suspicious behaviour on the part of Brammi and voted him in #225. Still accusing Leethoof and somewhat TL and Rediamond (#229). Then disappeared again due to AP or something and reappeared in #360 to defend himself. Pointed out and rebuffed an apparent callout on active lurking from Staraptor Call, provided an instinctive town read on zorbees, a hesitant town read on Yeti (noted she was hard to read), and called aska misguided (which I will take to mean town). 'Skeptical of billymills and B_T for trying to provide some cover for Brammi. It doesn't come across as buddying, but I am not really getting a good vibe for it. This might be tunnel-speak, however.' Called out Brammi for his zorbees vote and Crux too (#371). Called out TL and MB for inactivity and made a remark that Ditto's posts were coming across as 'artificial' (#376). Still going on about Brammi (#390) and makes a case for him as scum by dissecting his post. Positive read on Quagsires embedded and Yeti null read.
Upon billy's prompting, reiterates his Brammi lynch, votes Quagsires, and casts suspicion onto Staraptor Call (#472). This vote was removed upon Quags's claim.
Calls billy out (#621, #625) based on itemfishing, using his night result (#623), which Paperblade requested elaboration on (#622) then questioned how it incriminates billy (#624). From this I deduce the Parchment let you ask questions and I apologise to Snike for missing the posts explaining his result since I was suspicious of him for not explaining it. ._. I now believe #623 was the reason for his death, though you can speculate re. Brammi and to a lesser extent billy, B_T, and Staraptor Call. Was demonstrating clear suspicion of billymills, echoed in #636. For some reason he was willing to accept billy's explanation since he unvoted (#693) and cast a vote on loudkirbyking for his indecisive shit while denouncing Ullar (with an attribution to stupidity, I think?).
Then he died.
Analysis: In general all those initially positive receptions do not really offer much, I guess. A scum flip on someone would be really useful here! There was a clear consensus and so even scum would've had to go with the flow unless they seriously wanted to keep calling out Snype, which only Sam wanted to and we saw what happened there.
Staraptor Call was a little suspicious in #326 for his indirect (and, taking Snike at his word, incorrect) callout of Snike, which I must admit I didn't even pick up on until Snike did. And since Staraptor Call asked for timestamps when people accused him of it too -- OH WAIT, he's not here. Okay, can't really hold Ullar accountable for proof we'll never receive... still, Staraptor Call = Ullar, remember that.
I think it's obvious from #709 that I just had missed Snike's posts already explaining the things I asked (sorry), which I noted in my second section; I thought he was being way too cryptic. Still might have been suspicious if I had seen them for the reasons I listed but it's too late for me to tell now.
Evverything I directed at j-squared about his accusation of Snike holds, but consider this: if j-squared was trying to get him mislynched (assume scum), why did Snike then die last night? Answer: because j-squared is not scum, or if he is, because he didn't think he could get Snike lynched and was scared of him, or because his more experienced scumbuddies wanted to cover up what I pointed out, or because Snike was a good contributor but not one of the Yeti/Blue_Tornado/billy/zorbees/aska/etc. group (killing one of them would provide valuable flip data on all of them). So while this muddles up my read a bit, I am just way more suspicious of Ditto and his substitute j^2 now.
Unless wolf, I suppose, which is a little incriminating of billymills or anyone who knew anything about the Parchment (so lol basically anyone who can add two and two together, especially due to billymills AGAIN pointing out people holding items). Find it unlikely he would be killed for his item by the mafia, who have a thief, unless, again, wolf, who might not have a thief. I already talked a bit about the flavour. I direct everyone to #259, a hostpost that confirms the Parchment is now on the killer.
To the village thief, who I will assume exists unless all items are meant to end up in the hands of the mafia, finding anyone with the Parchment tonight means you found his killer, since you cannot pass items during the day (Walrein, #35). I doubt the mafia would be willing to get rid of such a valuable item if I am correct about its function, but they may attempt to pass it back to the village to cause confusion after tonight, since it's basically now the equivalent of a smoking gun with fingerprints.
Given Brammi's entanglement with two cleaned users, Snike and UncleSam, I would like to see Brammi talk a bit more and defend himself instead of deflecting, and you consider this me moving the spotlight onto Brammi slightly.
Of course his alliance doesn't mean Snike was right on all of his reads, but it's the best we've got. I feel that the most meaningful of Snike's relationships were his enmity with Brammi, his enmity with Ditto and j-squared, the brief exchange between him and Staraptor Call, his oscillating opinion on Quagsires, and his flopped suspicion of billymills. Also possibly his alleged relationship with B_T (j^2), though I honestly would like to see some evidence on that since I was just ctrl+fing Snike :s
QUESTION TIME!!!!
- j-squared: Now that Snike has been cleaned by cardflip, do you still believe Blue_Tornado is scum?
- j-squared: You also got Snike's flip, so tell us what you've learned from it, since you were so eager to see his allegiance.
- billymills: Why do you keep pointing out people whom you suspect to be holding items?
- Brammi: Um... just... talk more, seriously, I don't know where to start with you >< Post your thoughts on these revelations about Snike and UncleCereza!
I will explain everything about the items later.
Zorbees' vote on Cereza is uninteresting to me. The deadline forced the issue, and Zorbees requesting Cereza claim if she has a role is a fully valid move. I don't think we can read into it too much apart from thanking zorbees for doing what needed to be done.
Snike made himself a ridiculously obvious target. He proved he had an information role with valid information (mafia starting with 2 items could easily be confirmed by the mafia). His attack on me for item fishing made it extremely likely he had an item. I can not be blamed for pointing out the obvious, and Snike made everything about his role extremely obvious.
Pointing out Aska the first time was more of impulse vote that I felt needed explaining. I didn't actually believe it so I didn't have a problem pointing it out.
Zorbees' vote on Cereza is uninteresting to me. The deadline forced the issue, and Zorbees requesting Cereza claim if she has a role is a fully valid move. I don't think we can read into it too much apart from thanking zorbees for doing what needed to be done.
Snike made himself a ridiculously obvious target. He proved he had an information role with valid information (mafia starting with 2 items could easily be confirmed by the mafia). His attack on me for item fishing made it extremely likely he had an item. I can not be blamed for pointing out the obvious, and Snike made everything about his role extremely obvious.
Pointing out Aska the first time was more of impulse vote that I felt needed explaining. I didn't actually believe it so I didn't have a problem pointing it out.
rofl @ askamafiajask with his terribly over-town appearance and noob vote.
billy i have never been against a quagsires lynch. i have also been continually suspicious of him, but, i am usually cautious believing power roles either way.
jumpluff you guys can discuss me, BUT, you are unlikely to get an accurate response from anyone but me and i cannot reply in any reasonable means.
thus i find it a bit pointless if you get a ton of scums shoving words in my mouth.
Tho i would let billy reply for me since we buddy on everything else xDDD
anw thats all for now, have fun discussing me but you won't get a straight answer for another day+!!! thus you should begin prodding the inactive scrubs asap so by the time the day ends in four hours they will start replying lol!!!!!
as such MK ULTRA MAKE A POST (BAN ME PLEASE)
also the fact cereza never ONCE defended herself or did ANYTHING useful makes defending her own efforts to be a productive villager an entirely scummish and retardedly mafia thing to do wrt suspicions against me. i will rule you as brain damaged, mafia or both if you seriously think cereza did one thing to stand up for her presence.
or try and claim the fact she didnt makes me scummier. any (BAN ME PLEASE) can stand up for themselves so its not my problem cereza continually acted brain dead and idiotic with her LOL DONT UNDERSTAND THIS GAME.
even WORSE she was a vanillager. NOTHING TO LOSE. R E T A R D E D, cereza got it.
all i got to say i'm too tired and strained to not rage at how freakin degenerative that was to insist she had no clue whats going on.. when she was the most useless role itg. gdi truckin trucker ajodnrjejdjs ok gn luvs
billy i have never been against a quagsires lynch. i have also been continually suspicious of him, but, i am usually cautious believing power roles either way.
jumpluff you guys can discuss me, BUT, you are unlikely to get an accurate response from anyone but me and i cannot reply in any reasonable means.
thus i find it a bit pointless if you get a ton of scums shoving words in my mouth.
Tho i would let billy reply for me since we buddy on everything else xDDD
anw thats all for now, have fun discussing me but you won't get a straight answer for another day+!!! thus you should begin prodding the inactive scrubs asap so by the time the day ends in four hours they will start replying lol!!!!!
as such MK ULTRA MAKE A POST (BAN ME PLEASE)
also the fact cereza never ONCE defended herself or did ANYTHING useful makes defending her own efforts to be a productive villager an entirely scummish and retardedly mafia thing to do wrt suspicions against me. i will rule you as brain damaged, mafia or both if you seriously think cereza did one thing to stand up for her presence.
or try and claim the fact she didnt makes me scummier. any (BAN ME PLEASE) can stand up for themselves so its not my problem cereza continually acted brain dead and idiotic with her LOL DONT UNDERSTAND THIS GAME.
even WORSE she was a vanillager. NOTHING TO LOSE. R E T A R D E D, cereza got it.
all i got to say i'm too tired and strained to not rage at how freakin degenerative that was to insist she had no clue whats going on.. when she was the most useless role itg. gdi truckin trucker ajodnrjejdjs ok gn luvs
I feel like I'm being trolled @ line 1.
I'm not referring to zorbees' Cereza vote near the end, sorry for the ambiguity. I am actually referring to #93.
Also is it just me or does the last line mean 'I voted aska based on gut but then I had to qualify it so I just invented a reason I didn't really believe'? If not, please explain and sorry for the misinterpretation.
MK Ultra's active lurking is starting to bug me by the way since he is just blatantly coming into the thread then disappearing, no post, no explanation. Speak up. US/Cereza were scummier than you yesterday but you are in legit danger of being lynched today if yesterday is any indication. I saw it earlier and meant to note it but I was busy with Snike and now I have been reminded of it. As such: @@Lynch MK Ultra@@
Zorbees' vote on Unclesam is undeniably bad there, and as I said before I only followed the lynch because I disagreed entirely with the premise.
No I voted aska for that reason and just to throw votes around. I only mentioned that explanation as an after thought because I didn't really believe it.
Jump, to answer your questions:
1. Yes, I still believe BT is scum. One misread on my part does not mean I'm going to flip on all my other reads. One thing I learned from Peace NOC (when I was inspect with Acklow) is to trust your initial reads. I was all over the mafia at the beginning of that game (I sent AG a list of names that contained 3/4 mafia), but after a mis-inspect N2, I re-thought all my reads, which lead to a mis-lynch D3.
BT has been called over-defensive by multiple users, most notable US, myself, and Crux. BT's response each time has been something like "What am I doing that is defensive? Why are you picking on me?" or some other BS. The BT/Crux "downsfest" as Yeti called it, is very intriguing. The responses by both side were so stupid that it was almost like it was.......staged!?
The only reason I think BT may still be clean at this point is that only an idiot would be that overly defensive, especially when never being in any real danger of being lynched, and I don't think BT is an idiot.
2. Like I think you said, we would have learned more from Snike flipping mafia (if he flipped mafia, I would have put money on BT being mafia as well). However, we still learn a bit from him flipping village.
Billymills obviously isn't mafia thief, but some sort of item tracker. Not saying that can't be a mafia role, but it sounds like village to me.
It also casts a shadow of doubt on myself as well, as I'm the one who wanted him lynched. I still think he was a better target than US/Cereza, and I'll stand by that. Also, why would I have him killed him the next day, unless I wanted to pull some sort of mind-games BS. If you want to vote me instead of all the people that bandwagoned on Cereza, fine by me.
Also, this brings up the question: what the hell does the parchment do? How did it let Snike know there was a mafia theif, since he has no night action? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
1. Yes, I still believe BT is scum. One misread on my part does not mean I'm going to flip on all my other reads. One thing I learned from Peace NOC (when I was inspect with Acklow) is to trust your initial reads. I was all over the mafia at the beginning of that game (I sent AG a list of names that contained 3/4 mafia), but after a mis-inspect N2, I re-thought all my reads, which lead to a mis-lynch D3.
BT has been called over-defensive by multiple users, most notable US, myself, and Crux. BT's response each time has been something like "What am I doing that is defensive? Why are you picking on me?" or some other BS. The BT/Crux "downsfest" as Yeti called it, is very intriguing. The responses by both side were so stupid that it was almost like it was.......staged!?
The only reason I think BT may still be clean at this point is that only an idiot would be that overly defensive, especially when never being in any real danger of being lynched, and I don't think BT is an idiot.
2. Like I think you said, we would have learned more from Snike flipping mafia (if he flipped mafia, I would have put money on BT being mafia as well). However, we still learn a bit from him flipping village.
Billymills obviously isn't mafia thief, but some sort of item tracker. Not saying that can't be a mafia role, but it sounds like village to me.
It also casts a shadow of doubt on myself as well, as I'm the one who wanted him lynched. I still think he was a better target than US/Cereza, and I'll stand by that. Also, why would I have him killed him the next day, unless I wanted to pull some sort of mind-games BS. If you want to vote me instead of all the people that bandwagoned on Cereza, fine by me.
Also, this brings up the question: what the hell does the parchment do? How did it let Snike know there was a mafia theif, since he has no night action? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
As mentioned before, I believe it allowed him to ask a question about the game or something to that effect, since if it gave any information as to people's roles, he wouldn't've backed down about billymills. I can understand why he would ask this, since he would be paranoid about billy as a holder of one of the items being asked for.
From his role PM:
A night action is something that you lack
Perhaps thine item shall pick up the slack?
I'm wondering why you're trying to discuss the item though, j^2 -- do you feel we can learn something from this conversation? Not a loaded question, just wondering.
As an explanation, I was curious about your new read on B_T because his relationship with Snike (which I honestly didn't see but am curious about) may have made you significantly more suspicious of him (as someone who was suspicious of Snike), and when Snike flipped clean you may have reevaluated that whole angle through which you were looking at them. Reads don't exist in a vacuum, but you're quite right to hold to your convictions if they have good reasoning behind them.
Regarding your motives for killing him, I actually already addressed this in my post (unless you're responding to that):
Thank you for answering my questions. Your suggestion that the Crux-BT argument may be staged is indeed an interesting one. In general from the relationship Ditto had with B_T that you have continued... Unless there is some very calculated distancing going on, which I can't rule out completely, I guess this reinforces my feeling that if B_T is mafia you likely are not and vice versa, and almost certainly not if Crux and B_T both are.
It strikes me as interesting (neither positively or negatively) that your relationship with B_T is very similar to Ditto's, though. Just another of my not-sure-exactly-what-to-think-yet-but-making-a-note 'insights'. Also, of course the Cereza lynch must be addressed, but that doesn't make you look any better... we have two flips here and Cereza isn't the only one. Surely we can discuss both :3
Also, wondering what Paperblade (bold is to grab his attention) makes of users not named Quagsires, as many of his D2 posts concerned him to a degree of exclusivity.
From his role PM:
A night action is something that you lack
Perhaps thine item shall pick up the slack?
I'm wondering why you're trying to discuss the item though, j^2 -- do you feel we can learn something from this conversation? Not a loaded question, just wondering.
As an explanation, I was curious about your new read on B_T because his relationship with Snike (which I honestly didn't see but am curious about) may have made you significantly more suspicious of him (as someone who was suspicious of Snike), and when Snike flipped clean you may have reevaluated that whole angle through which you were looking at them. Reads don't exist in a vacuum, but you're quite right to hold to your convictions if they have good reasoning behind them.
Regarding your motives for killing him, I actually already addressed this in my post (unless you're responding to that):
I do not consider this a 100% incrimination on you because of course townies can be (and are expected to be...) wrong (me). One of your hypothetical mafia buddies may actually be someone who stuck up for Snike, in fact! I find it unlikely the kill was based on those grounds since there wasn't anyone who could be prominently seen as a Snike defender, but it's supposed to illustrate something: that your hypothetical scumbuddies would have to be taken into account too in making the nightkill. Still not ruling out the wolf though.
Thank you for answering my questions. Your suggestion that the Crux-BT argument may be staged is indeed an interesting one. In general from the relationship Ditto had with B_T that you have continued... Unless there is some very calculated distancing going on, which I can't rule out completely, I guess this reinforces my feeling that if B_T is mafia you likely are not and vice versa, and almost certainly not if Crux and B_T both are.
It strikes me as interesting (neither positively or negatively) that your relationship with B_T is very similar to Ditto's, though. Just another of my not-sure-exactly-what-to-think-yet-but-making-a-note 'insights'. Also, of course the Cereza lynch must be addressed, but that doesn't make you look any better... we have two flips here and Cereza isn't the only one. Surely we can discuss both :3
Also, wondering what Paperblade (bold is to grab his attention) makes of users not named Quagsires, as many of his D2 posts concerned him to a degree of exclusivity.
Oh, God, not more numbers discussion.
I agree that Rediamond absolutely has some 'splaining to do, based on my post covering him. I don't find it unlikely that there could be many vanillagers in the game since that is the typical NOC mafia setup anywhere you go: village has a few PRs and then the rest are vanilla. Vanillagers are rare in normal Smogon mafia, but while Smogon's style is very visible in NOC mafia here, it doesn't translate well to NOC to have very many PRs.
Also, I'm loath to point this out but surely everyone will notice, or at least most people. To borrow a line from billymills: I can't be blamed for pointing out the obvious amirite. Anyway, you just claimed PR or mafia... >___>; Did Staraptor Call ever claim...?
I agree that Rediamond absolutely has some 'splaining to do, based on my post covering him. I don't find it unlikely that there could be many vanillagers in the game since that is the typical NOC mafia setup anywhere you go: village has a few PRs and then the rest are vanilla. Vanillagers are rare in normal Smogon mafia, but while Smogon's style is very visible in NOC mafia here, it doesn't translate well to NOC to have very many PRs.
Also, I'm loath to point this out but surely everyone will notice, or at least most people. To borrow a line from billymills: I can't be blamed for pointing out the obvious amirite. Anyway, you just claimed PR or mafia... >___>; Did Staraptor Call ever claim...?
