Virizion should really be a staple of every sun team. Its Life Orb Calm Mind set happens to wreck every weather starter bar Ninetales, and its 2 biggest problems (Scizor and Tornadus) are beaten easily by most Sun teams (Scizor gets beat up easily by the abundance of Fire Moves that Sun teams have, Tornadus loses accuracy on Hurricane)
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What do you think is the most underrated Pokemon in OU? (Read the OP and Post #215)
- Thread starter doughboy
- Start date
Thing is why would you use virizion, when there is an abundance in other, faster grass types that can do the same thing on sun teams. Things like shiftry or sawbuck, or even lilligant? Venusaur can do it as well with its mixed set
tehy
Banned deucer.
Stab Focus blast, essentially. That, plus HP ice, means it isn't hard-walled by things, unlike most sun sweepers, including all of those you just named BUT sawsbuck, who is still sort of weaksauce.
To the above poster, sawsbuck is still roflstomped by scizor, and if it's not carrying nature power, jirachi. If it is, balloontran. And of course, many dragons can take a hit and KO back, as can many grass types.
To the above poster, sawsbuck is still roflstomped by scizor, and if it's not carrying nature power, jirachi. If it is, balloontran. And of course, many dragons can take a hit and KO back, as can many grass types.
Also, Virizion's boosts and speed aren't nerfed by Tyranitar/Politoed switching in.
Virizion also has a base 129 Special Defence, letting it switch into any stray Hydro Pumps. Also like Chillarmy said, Virizion is able to function outside of Sun, and is actually a major threat to Sand/Rain teams. With things like Giga Drain and Calm Mind Virizion is able to keep himself healthy as well as boosting his defenses(something alot of Chlorophyll users lack). Just because he lacks Venusaur's speed doesn't make him unusable.
I would assume people aren't fond of Focus Miss being a main attacking move.
I'd imagine the last bit is because SD Virizon is about as common as CM is, and Gliscor handles SD Virizion fairly well as long as it doesn't switch into a boosted Leaf Blade. That, and the simple fact that Virizion is uncommon enough that some poor newbies won't know that it usually runs HP Ice...
Although this is annoying, it in theory shouldn't detract from Virizion's usage. Pokemon like Hydreigon, Reuniclus, and Alakazam are also equally dependent on Focus Blast but they all manage to maintain high levels of usage. I don't believe Virizion's lack of usage comes from his reliance on Focus Blast.
Except those three mostly use Focus Blast as a coverage move. While in theory it shouldn't mean much since the reliance is still there, in practice it does make a world of difference.
Those three usually have STAB to punch neutral holes into things, and don't have to rely on Focus Blast for anything other than SE damage, and Hydreigon himself has two STABs (well...depends on the set whether you run things like Dark Pulse or not) on top of the three either having a fairly sizable movepool (Hydreigon/Alakazam) or amazing bulk (Reuniclus, with Magic Guard providing even more staying power).
Virizion on the other hand, would pretty much only have boosted Giga Drains as the main STAB without using Focus Blast, doesn't have the best move pool to back it up, and its bulk, while impressive on the Special side, is average elsewhere.
Now I think Virizion is great, albeit I haven't been able to play it myself...as I'm a terrible team builder, but I can see why people might balk at the opportunity of playing it.
Sawsbuck and Mew are easily the Pokemon in OU that need more love. Sawsbuck has a movepool not seen by any other grass type, especially with a high-power Earthquake not affected by Sucker Punch. It's ability Chlorophyll allows it to become a very fast threat, and there's also STAB Return, Swords Dance, Horn Leech, and tons of other things to make this my favorite Sun abuser.
Mew may have lost a few of its good niches, but it is far from useless in OU. My favorite one is this stallbreaker set:
Mew @ Leftovers Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Ice Beam
This beats Gliscor, Dragonite, and other strong pokemon with its use of Ice Beam. Walls that are slower stand no chance due to Will-o-wisp crippling it and Roost and Taunt to stall it out to no end. It's a great alternative and a bit more reliable to the comparable Jellicent set, also it is much faster. I recommend all Jellicent users to replace it with this monster.
Mew may have lost a few of its good niches, but it is far from useless in OU. My favorite one is this stallbreaker set:
Mew @ Leftovers Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Ice Beam
This beats Gliscor, Dragonite, and other strong pokemon with its use of Ice Beam. Walls that are slower stand no chance due to Will-o-wisp crippling it and Roost and Taunt to stall it out to no end. It's a great alternative and a bit more reliable to the comparable Jellicent set, also it is much faster. I recommend all Jellicent users to replace it with this monster.
It's hard to say what pokemon are underrated, the 'best' pokemon may be so good that even though they are quite popular, they still aren't used as much as they ought to be.
Even if Scizor is used on 20-30% of teams, I would argue that Scizor, as one of 2 or 3 Steel types that offensive teams typically find useful, should actually be on every offensive team and perhaps some stall teams. I would say a realistic usage stat for Scizor is 45%. So is Scizor underrated? Yes. Still wildly popular? Yes.
Things that are actually underrated are few and far between. There are pokemon like Tornadus and Volcarona that encourage some of us to build teams around them. However, these pokemon are much less desirable on teams that aren't built specifically to maximize their potential. Because of this, I would argue that usage higher than 7% is actually unexpectedly high for these pokemon. If such pokemon see 10% usage they are being overrated by players on the whole.
Even if Scizor is used on 20-30% of teams, I would argue that Scizor, as one of 2 or 3 Steel types that offensive teams typically find useful, should actually be on every offensive team and perhaps some stall teams. I would say a realistic usage stat for Scizor is 45%. So is Scizor underrated? Yes. Still wildly popular? Yes.
Things that are actually underrated are few and far between. There are pokemon like Tornadus and Volcarona that encourage some of us to build teams around them. However, these pokemon are much less desirable on teams that aren't built specifically to maximize their potential. Because of this, I would argue that usage higher than 7% is actually unexpectedly high for these pokemon. If such pokemon see 10% usage they are being overrated by players on the whole.
Agreed /<3
This set is so underrated right now. I have 6-0 so many people because it is almost unseen in today's metagame.
Tyranitar (M) @ Babiri Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance
Now I know Tyranitar is in the top ten of usage, and this is really not an underrated pokemon but an underrated moveset, but this specific Tyraniter is very unexpected and can sweep entire teams by itself. Tyranitar can be a very dangerous sweeper, and most people seem to forget that.
Tyranitar (M) @ Babiri Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance
Now I know Tyranitar is in the top ten of usage, and this is really not an underrated pokemon but an underrated moveset, but this specific Tyraniter is very unexpected and can sweep entire teams by itself. Tyranitar can be a very dangerous sweeper, and most people seem to forget that.
breaking my pokemon reticence to say that this is one of the best posts i've ever read about competitive pokemon and, paradoxically, one that will probably get dismissed as nonsense
I'm just gonna throw out my two cents in response to Myzozoa's comment, I'm not sure if using Scizor as an example would really prove the point. Plus, 27% usage in OU is still completely ridiculous. But, the reason it isn't 45% is because there are just some teams that don't really need Scizor. Sure, it could be higher, but that doesn't make a Pokemon underrated. I just don't really think Scizor can be considered "underrated" because every knowledgeable OU player recognizes Scizor as serious business.
I think that for a Pokemon to be underrated if it has a niche that most players ignore, as explained by the definition in the OP. Scizor's niche in OU is one that everyone is aware of. But, the niche of, say, Togekiss, maybe not so much, so one could argue for that.
I think that for a Pokemon to be underrated if it has a niche that most players ignore, as explained by the definition in the OP. Scizor's niche in OU is one that everyone is aware of. But, the niche of, say, Togekiss, maybe not so much, so one could argue for that.
Yeah, I'm thinking that too. An underrated threat is something players tend to overlook or don't prepare for because they don't face it often. I don't use Scizor right now because it doesn't fit with my OU team, but at the same time, I have used Scizor before because I found its role to be very useful for my team. Also, on pretty much every single team I have ever made, I've thought "what Pokemon (plural, for that matter) can handle Scizor on this team." Not every team needs Scizor - if this was true, then Scizor would be on every team. No Pokemon is perfect, but there are some threats that while you are team-building, that just stick out so much that if you ignore it, you won't go very far. The same goes for stuff like Terrakion or Rotom-W.
Although he isn't an offensive Pokemon, Skarmory is a good example in a lot of Generations. In generation III, he was probably sitting at about 20-30% usage, which is around where Scizor is now, and even then, I believe he rarely topped the statistics. However, he was by absolutely no means underrated. People packed the useless Magneton JUST to get him out of the way. Stuff like Salamence at this point were using Fire Blast just to get rid of him (and Forretress) exclusively. Rapid Spinners were used commonly thanks to him and his spikes, and a lot of teams packed teams that didn't mind spikes. He didn't get GSC Snorlax usage, but he certainly helped shape the metagame. Similar stuff includes everything running Hidden Power Grass just due to Swampert, Scizor creating a rise in Heatran at the end of Gen IV, Blissey causing Special Attackers to struggle, etc. Similarly, Scizor's presence helps Heatran, makes some Tyranitar run the Steel-Resist berry, makes Reuniclus a bit uncommon (it can beat Tyranitar in Trick Room sometimes, but it has no hope against Scizor), is the core of the infamous Voltturn strategy, etc.
I see where your coming from in this scenario to whoever posted the original post about this, but everybody prepares for Scizor and a ton of people use it (or have used it at some point). Nobody really prepares for Quagsire anymore in OU, and people tend to ignore threats like Latias and Virizion, which is what makes them underrated. My opinion isn't correct by any means - it is just what I think.
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Onto the actual subject, I think that Poliwrath is a little underrated. I don't think it needs extraordinairy uage or anything, but Circle throw is very useful to stop momentum for U-turn spammers (not Volt Switchers, though), it can absorb Scalds from some users thanks to Water Absorb, which prevents the burn from it too. A bulky set with Circle Throw with other moves like Waterfall, Scald, Ice Punch, Ice Beam, Rest, Sleep talk, Bulk Up, Toxic, etc. works pretty well. It can outspeed Skarmory and Circle Throw it before it gets phazed itself with little investment, and depending if it is specially defensive or physically defensive, it deals pretty well with Tyranitar, Politoed, Scizor, Ninetales, Heatran, Landorus, Volcarona, Terrakion, Infernape (Grass Knot hurts a bit though), which allows him to rack up entry hazard damage (and Circle Throw damage) once some threats are gone. A huge plus is his typing and ability, which gives him resistances to common moves like Fire Blast, Stone Edge, Bullet Punch, U-turn, Crunch, Ice Beam (Most of what any Tyranitar uses, Volcarona's STABs, and Scizor's 2 most common moves) and an immunity to the aforementioned water moves like Scald. While his attacking stats are pretty bad and he suffers 4MSS, he still has a very useful niche, and deals pretty well with several common Pokemon.
Um... choice scarf hp fire? Duh -_-'
But in all seriousness. Cobalion doesn't get the usage he deserves at all. The sheer ease at which it can get to +4 is astounding.
Cobalion@lefties/lo/fight plate
252 att/252 spd jolly
-cc
-sub
-iron head/stone edge
-sd
Sub on something that can't touch you (a lot, especially walls), set up set up sweep
It has fantastic bulk on the physical side, allowing it to tank quite a bit, along with that wonderful steel typing
I have to disagree. Just because people a pokemon is popular doesn't mean he's not underrated. This is especially true with pokemon like Scizor and DNite, who are complete game changers and can be thrown onto lots of teams without thought, meaning their usage stats could viably be even higher than they are now.
Your definition of "underrated" seems much more fitting for a word like "overlooked". All overlooked pokemon are underrated, but not all underrated pokemon are overlooked, if that makes sense. I would argue that Wobbuffet is overlooked AND underrated -which is more in line with your definition- and Scizor is still underrated while (obviously) not being overlooked.
BTW, great post Myzozoa.
To contribute something of my own, I think the amount of pokemon being dubbed underrated is way too high. There are a ton of pokemon who can potentially contend in OU, but just because they can doesn't mean they should. Yes, Charizard can destroy teams if conditions are just right... but for him to really compete there needs to be Sun, no Stealth Rock, no Fire resist, etc. In the end, the amount of team support you need to provide to make him viable isn't worth it. On the other hand, Victini can serve in a similar role (Sun-Abusing wall breaker), and doesn't need nearly as much support to work. I honestly think that there are only about 20 non-OU pokemon who are truly underrated for the OU metagame, such as Kingdra, Wobbuffet, and Zoroark. These pokemon are all very threatening with little to no team support and perform and important job that nothing else can, even though their usage statistics aren't that high.
Defensive Gliscor is not even a check to Virizion. Virizion 2hkoes with a +2 Leaf Blade, while the best that Gliscor can do is Toxic you or throw an Ice Fang. So even though Gliscor will make you lose around 50% of your health or something like that, it loses.
And offensive Gliscor is ohkoed 75% of the time after SR at +2.
call me crazy, because i probably am, but i like Golurk. he walls terrakion, being immune to ghost and resisting rock. He stops blisssey in it's tracks, especially when using substitute to avoid toxic. he may be slower than molasses, but he has the defenses to back it up, and the raw power to strike back. there have been a number of times where people have tried to kill it with gengar's shadow ball only for him to survive the attack and kill it with shadow punch. He ceratainly has his flaws, such as his ice and water weaknesses and again his abysmal speed, but he fills a certain niche.
But the thing that I personally disagree with is how Scizor would be on all offensive teams if he wasn't "underrated." There are only 6 Pokemon you can carry on a team, after all. So Politoed is underrated just because it has bad synergy with Tyranitar, and vice versa? Some teams don't need Scizor because they don't need what it does. If Scizor could fit on every single team, he would have a heck of a lot of viable sets, not just on the physcial side either, for that matter.
The definition of underrate is "To rate too low; underestimate." If everyone prepares for a Pokemon because they know it is dangerous, how is that underrated? The definition of overlook is "To ignore deliberately or indulgently; disregard." Obviously, Scizor isn't ignored, but it isn't underestimated if it is the #1 Pokemon in the metagame and makes a lot of Pokemon a lot better or a whole lot worse. Everyone knows what Scizor does, and they know he does it well. Very few underestimate the power, utility, or his scouting ability (think of all the complaining about Voltturn!).
I don't really get the point you were trying to make with Politoed and Tyranitar. Having bad synergy with a major player in the metagame doesn't make you underrated. If anything, it makes you less likely to be so. That's part of why Scizor is so incredible; he practically has no bad synergy to speak of at all. Like I said, you can slap him on almost any team and know he can carry his weight and then some. Also, the number of sets Scizor has is irrelevant; if he can dominate the metagame with just one or two main sets, who cares how many viable sets he has? If you remember, Excadrill basically only used the SD set, and he dominated so much he was banned. No other pokemon even comes close to accomplishing what he can.
I'd agree that when facing him, good battlers are aware of how formidable he is. However, I think that when building a team it's easy for people to underestimate how much of an impact Scizor can have as a teammate. At the end of your post you touched on how amazing he is. I can't think of many teams that aren't improved by his presence. Would he be on every team ever? No, don't be silly. But when you think about all of the strengths he has, would you really be surprised if he had 35% to 40% usage? That's why he's underrated: his usage stats don't reflect how potent he is, even they're already really high.
On a side note, this isn't really about Scizor, he was just the example that Myzozoa used. There are plenty of pokemon in OU who are also overrated.
I'm not being silly, its just that Myzozoa stated that "...I would argue that Scizor, as one of 2 or 3 Steel types that offensive teams typically find useful, should actually be on every offensive team and perhaps some stall teams." And that is why Tyranitar and Politoed were included - some members aren't used together, which prevents them from achieving a better statistic, in case anyone thought of them as a whole underrated. It was a bad example, but it shows that not every team is able to use great Pokemon due to what they bring or one thing they lack.
Not by any means are you or Myzozoa wrong, though. But some teams don't use Scizor, like a lot of Rain Stall. I hate pointing out the 1337 statistics, but Scizor has a pretty dang high usage there (around the 40% stated here), and although Scizor doesn't have the true statistic, people recognize what it does enough for me to argue that, Scizor isn't necesarily underrated.
And on the lines of Excadrill, he was really feared, but when he was banned, he was below 10% usage iirc..