Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

I completely agree with ganj4lF, not only will a Heatran completely wall the other teams Heatran (provided that team does not add earth power, which doesn't happen with a specially defensive Heatran anyway). I do however have a slight disagreement on the set.


Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute/Toxic
- Hidden Power[Ice]
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power

I liked the set ganj4lF posted, but on my offensive Heatran I prefer to have 3 attacking moves for extra coverage, HP Ice lets me hit dragons or gliscors. I didn't specify the first two moves. Depending on the next four teammates will decide the move. If this team gets a better user of toxic or toxic spikes, then go with sub. If this team gets no other toxic user then go with toxic.

Salamence@Lum Berry
Trait: Moxie
EV's: 252 Attack/252 Speed/4 SpA
Naive Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

The ever so fearsome MoxieMence. Max Speed to speed tie with any other max speed base 100 pokes and to ouspeed neutral natured base 114 pokemon. The plan here is to switch in on a move in which a pokemon cannot do much to Salamence and use Dragon Dance on the switch. Lum Berry is the item of choce so that is any pokemon statuses Mence or is confused after Outrage, than he will be cured of that status and continue his rampage. If this pokemon is chosen, it will have to directly be countered by another pokemon in the future selectings which will limit the choices that the other team has of choosing pokemon possibly.

Shovel said:

I really like this, actually. It seems you forgot an ability, though. Which were you thinking? All three can be useful, so you should edit your post with your thoughts ^^

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Well, we know Poison Heal is pointless without a Toxic Orb. Sand Veil and Hyper Cutter are equally good, with Sand Veil being slightly more useful in sand. "AcroBling" sets like the one Electrolyte posted typically run Sand Veil to gain extra turns on which to Swords Dance, but Hyper Cutter prevents Intimidate users from getting in the way of its boosting. Neither team has weather yet, and Team 2 does not have intimidate yet, so the ability right now is irrelevant. That doesn't mean that we can't just make Team 1's next Pokemon Ttar/Hippo, though, so I think we should specify an ability since it has the potential to influence team building (Hyper Cutter less so).

Heatran seems like to most reliable counter so far, since it can switch into anything except T-wave with complete ease, and it doesn't even mind that too much. I think I agree with Me So Shiny that HP Ice is a good choice on Heatran since otherwise a Dragon type would be an easy choice for the other team, and we want to remove as many possibilities for them as we can. However, slashes aren't allowed, Me So Shiny, so I would recommend choosing Toxic over Sub so you threaten water types, albeit with more prediction than with Sub and Toxic.

I also noticed that Lum Berry sets are being used to stay a counter against status users. I think that this is okay sometimes, but only when that Pokemon getting in safe has the potential to be very threatening offensively. The DD Salamence set posted works well - i's my second favorite after Heatran btw - since it's immediately very threatening to the opposing team, whereas Rock Polish Terrakion doesn't have nearly as much power a its disposal, which may force it to switch out, and have to take another status move.

As for the other sets, I think hat they can be threatening if they switch in, but they either can't take at least one of the moves that Celebi and Heatran have, or can't afford to switch in multiple times.

I think you guys need to remember that Celebi has Thunder Wave, therefore, it cripples a fair amount of sweepers, especially on the switch in and makes it tricky for us to pick a pokemon. Heatran is a nice choice, thats true, however, remember that Team 2 WANT us to run Heatran, as it forces us away from the possibility of a rain team, which they really want to avoid. So, why don't we pick something that keeps our rain options open, while threatening the fuck out of Tran / Celebi. Something like...



Thundurus-T @ Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
Evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Nasty Plot
-Thunderbolt / Thunder
-Hidden Power Ice
-Focus Blast

This thing doesn't give a fuck about what Celebi does, heals 25% if it switches in on a Thunder Wave, sets up a Nasty Plot, and flat out nukes both members of team 2. Thundurus-T still gives us the option of using rain, as well as basically forcing Team 2 into picking a revenge killer in order to handle Thundurus-T. I sorta don't need to explain this set, we all know it nukes the fuck outta a lot of things so yea.

It's...


Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe*
Modest (+SpA / -Atk)
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Dark Pulse
~ Earth Power

Calcs:


As you can see, Celebi can't break Hydreigon's sub without using a turn to set up. If it comes in on a damaging attack, sub up while Celebi uses Nasty Plot / T-wave, then 2HKO. If it comes in on Nasty Plot instead, go straight for Dark Pulse At worst, Hydreigon takes a +2 Giga Drain (36.82 - 43.11%). If you get T-waved, you no longer outspeed; but Celebi is still toast. Hydreigon doesn't lose this matchup unless 2 Parahax happen in a row.

As for "Heatrab" - it's best bet is to roar it away; but Hydreigon gets to fire an Earth Power, possibly KOing. If for some unfathomable reason Heatran decides to attack, he needs to hit Hydra's sub twice to break it; and even if Heatran somehow manages to hit Hydreigon with a Lava Plume and proc the 30% burn chance, Hydreigon doesn't care too much about burns anyway.

On top that, Hydreigon is an excellent destructive force with Dark / Dragon STABS on top of Ground, granting him great coverage. He also happens to add two immunities and 6 resistances to common attacking types to our team. And he doesn't rely on weather to boot!

*EVs sightly tweaked to outspeed Celebi. Can do it's job with the standard 200 Spe EVs but if Fire Blast misses once, Hydreigon will have to switch or die.

**(Edited) As Xelacelle Dark Pulse is a better option because it can be used to take out ghosts that hinder Meloetta (unless our team ends up being Scizor-weak); so I made Dark Pulse the main slash.

***(Edit 2: Electric Bogaloo) You guys are right - Earth Power probably makes a better last option. I initially kept Focus Blast because of Ferrothorn; but there's not much it can do to Hydreigon thanks to Substitute.

Darmanitan - Choice Scarf
Sheer Force - Adamant
252 Atk 252 Spe 4 SpD
Flare Blitz
Superpower
Earthquake
U-Turn

Pretty straight forward. Choice Scarf gives Darmanitan great Speed and Base 140 Attack is nothing to scoff at. U-Turn can help gain momentum and in this case, Earthquake does 124% minimum to Heatran. All Heatran can do is fire off weak Lava Plumes or Roar Darmanitan out. Celebi can cripple Darmanitan but Choice Scarf means that Celebi is outsped and taken out in one hit by Flare Blitz or U-Turn which once again aids this team in maintaining momentum

I think my favourite sets so far are Electrolye's Gliscor, Ginganinja's Thundurus-T and ClubbingSealClub's Hydreigon


Gliscor has more trouble coming in on Celebi than the other two and has a weakness to water which would make using rain on this team (which we seem to be pushing towards) a little iffy. However, it is immune to Thunder Wave and there aren't many Pokemon which enjoy taking a +2 Earthquake or Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics from a Gliscor.
Gliscor also has some synergy with Meloetta, resisting Bug and Fighting type attacks which are super-effective to Meloetta's Aria and Pirouette formes respectively, while (as started) Meloetta is capable of removing Skarmory, which gives Gliscor trouble.


Thundurus-T wrecks teams. We all know that. Being unable to be paralyzed by Celebi (and gaining life from it) is a huge bonus, too. It also functions excellently in the rain we seem to be pushing towards and keep our options open on that front.
Thundurus-T also has the same type synergy with Meloetta as Gliscor has (but I can't immediately think of any pokemon one has trouble with which the other can deal with. Except possibly Blissey, but Thundurus has Nasty Plot.) Also, there is the annoying weakness to Stealth Rocks (and they're now present on Team 2) to consider.


Hydreigon is a little different in that it's not going to enjoy taking the Thunder Wave on the switch in to Celebi. However, as Ginganinja mentions (below), Hydreigon isn't the fastest Pokemon in the world so Paralysis isn't quite as crippling to it as it is to other Pokemon.
Type synergy wise, it's not so great either. While it is immune to Psychic and resists Dark (Melo-A / -P) it is also weak to Bug and Fighting. But... Meloetta is walled pretty hard by bulky Psychic types and Ghost types, and Hydreigon is capable of removing both of these types with Dark Pulse. (For that reason I would probably have Dark Pulse over Fire Blast even outside of the rain).


All of the other Pokemon are perfectly good at countering Heatran and Celebi but don't seem to have much synergy with Meloetta (correct me if I'm missing something!) Some of them also don't function well in the rain, something which a few people on this team seem to want to keep as an option.

/
I'd also like to point out that outright countering "Heatrab" may be unnecessary, as Meloetta hits it pretty damn hard with Close Combat anyway. In Aria forme, she 2-3HKO's with Close Combat and is 3HKO'd by Fire Blast.
In Pirouetta forme, she OHKOs with Close Combat and is 2HKO'd by Fire Blast.
While this means that she'll take a lot of damage doing it, Meloetta at the very least check Heatran in its own right.

EDIT: As for Darmanitan, I have the same reservations as the ones originally expressed against my Choice Scarf Terrakion - choosing a scarfer / revenge killer now makes it easier to counter, and easier to choose pokes which it can't revenge kill. (Also, I don't think Darmanitan works in the rain, and I am coming around to the idea of keeping that option open)

EDIT2: I think I'll stick with Team 1 now, instead of posting ALL OF THE TIME. (Obviously I will probably still post if I think people are making particularly good/bad choices on team 2 but yeah.) I would post a Pokemon which has reasonable synergy with Meloetta and counters Celebi but it happens to be best when Choice Scarfed and doesn't work so great in the rain. So I will wait until the next round, and just vote this time.

@Ginganinja Thanks! I have been trying to fit plenty into my posts.
I'm also fairly unsure in regards to Agility and NP on Thundurus-T. I'm edging towards Agility though, simply because while the lack of power could be a problem it makes Thundurus-T very difficult to revenge kill and means Team 2 will, as you say, probably be forced into using Latias. The only Pokemon I can think of simillarly able to wall Thundurus-T is Blissey, who is easily dealt with by Meloetta. Also, while NP Thundurus-T can destroy unprepared teams, Team 2 will be far from unprepared.

Good points Xelacalle. Man I love reading your posts!

You did pick up an important point regarding Thundurus-T, they don't really take care of each others counters (well I GUESS Thundurus can kill a Scizor but its U-Turning anyway), and it was for this reason that I did consider Agility over Nasty Plot on Thundurus-T. It does make it harder to get a full kill on Heatran and Celebi, since there is a significant power drop, however, it does make it almost impossible to revenge kill, which means that Team 2 would be forced into using a Latias. I am very tempted to swap Agility for NP, but I guess someone else could nominate Agility Thundurus-T and so during voting people can pick what they think works best.

That said, there is a few things I want to point out,

Scenario 2: Terrakion switches in on a giga drain from celebi which can't OHKO even with SR (75.93% - 89.81%). Terrakion outspeeds and has an 87.5% Chance to OHKO with X-scissor

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O.k fine, Giga Drain doesn't KO, however, Celebi switches out, Team 2 revenges with something else (you can bet they will have a terrakion counter if its selected), (or we switch out and have a 10-15% Terrakion) and in my opinion we LOSE that match up. Sure, technically the "switch out and go to a counter scenario" can be applied to any pokemon, however, I really don't consider Terrakion an effective choice for actually beating Celebi, when it cannot switch in without being crippled. Technically "its a counter" but in a battle, I would want something more reliable.

That said, whatever we do pick (I cannot vote since I submitted a set) I would prefer we remembered the following

1. I would rather we focus on full out countering Celebi. As Xelacalle pointed out, Meloetta can handle Heatran (its even easier if we run Rain) so its really a matter of countering Celebi which is more of the danger.
2. Whatever we pick, it MUST (imo), retain and offensive pressure that forces Team 2 onto the back foot. You can bet that Team 2 will start doing something similar very soon, and I really want something that not only threatens the core (or just Celebi), but also the rest of the current (fictional) members of a team. Basically, this means that I don't want us running a wall or something to deal with Celebi, offensive checks / counters are so much better.
3. We don't play into the hands of Team 2. Pocket stated that they really don't want us running Rain, which is exactly WHY I am pushing for stuff that still gives us the option of rain. It pisses them off, its why they voted for Celebi to force Heatran onto our team etc etc. Please bear in mind when voting that we want something that doesn't "play into their hands" as it were.
4. Please PLEASE look at what moves Team 2 has and remember that technically, we are not countering in a void, switching out is allowed. For example, I dislike Scarf Darmanitan simply because our scarfer and revenge killer gets boned by Thunder Wave. Sure, it means that Celebi is countered, however it means that Team 2 can select any sweeper that requires a revenge killer (like DD Nite, Mence, random shit im forgetting) and then sorta need to run a wall (decreasing our offensive presence) or a second revenge killer to handle it (makes us vulnerable to set up opportunities, prolly still Thunder Wave weak). So please please please make sure whatever you vote for isn't crippled by a Thunder Wave, that would be swell.

Basically that this means that id vote for something that isn't wrecked by Thunder Wave, which basically means Natural Cure users, Volt Absorb / Lightning Rod, or Ground types. Out of all of them, I prolly like Hydreigon best, since it can work well in and out of weather, and I don't really want my Gliscor switching into Celebi or Heatran (cos it cannot rly). Hydreigon might not like paralysis, but it can function o.k, and still be neat under rain I guess.

lol, I really wonder who will have the integrity to choose Politoed when the time comes.

One thing that I'm noticing is that many people are throwing in out-of-place Lum Berrys t counter the fact that two of Team 2's pokemon have status moves. Seriously, if status shits over your pokemon enough for you to consider a Lum Berry instead of the current item, you probably shouldn't post it. Most of the pokemon already posted are fine, though.

When voting, also try to pick a pokemon that not only synergizes well with Meloetta but also opens up a wide range of options and keeps the team flexible. Since I posted a set I'll try not to be too biased here, but I agree that Hydriegon and Thundurus are solid choices. (I looked back, and noticed that my Gliscor might not have been the best idea because it is shut down by Heatran's WoW.) Both pokemon bring in a whole variety of options to the table- including the ability to revenge, clean up, and set up. Thundurus does, however, have the niche of not giving a about both Twave and WoW- and, it's ability to discrourage Team 2 from using Rain.

Also remember that after this pick we're choosing the third member for Team 1- we should try to select a pokemon that has decent synergy with much of the metagame; we want to keep our options large and our threats small.

[pimg]675[/pimg]
Landorus @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Force
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Hidden Power Ice
-U-turn

This Landorus threaten's both members of Team 2 at the moment, whether it be hitting Celebi hard with a U-turn or smacking Heatran in the face with an Earthquake. Choice Scarf Landorus has the power and speed to make sure that team 2 is on the defensive.

Xelacalle said:

Gliscor also has some synergy with Meloetta, resisting Bug and Fighting type attacks which are super-effective to Meloetta's Aria and Pirouette formes respectively, while (as started) Meloetta is capable of removing Skarmory, which gives Gliscor trouble.

All of the other Pokemon are perfectly good at countering Heatran and Celebi but don't seem to have much synergy with Meloetta (correct me if I'm missing something!) Some of them also don't function well in the rain, something which a few people on this team seem to want to keep as an option.

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Simply to defend my pokemon, Salamence and Meloetta do have pretty good type synergy. Just like Gliscor, Salamence is resistant to Bug and Fighting moves that Meloetta would be weak to depending on her forme. Her Pirouette Forme can also take a Rock move that would normally hit Salamence for SE damage. While in the Aria Forme, she can take Ice Beams typically aimed at Mence like a champ because of it's base 128 Special Defense.

G-Von said:

Simply to defend my pokemon, Salamence and Meloetta do have pretty good type synergy. Just like Gliscor, Salamence is resistant to Bug and Fighting moves that Meloetta would be weak to depending on her forme. Her Pirouette Forme can also take a Rock move that would normally hit Salamence for SE damage. While in the Aria Forme, she can take Ice Beams typically aimed at Mence like a champ because of it's base 128 Special Defense.

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Thank-you for correcting me G-Von! Meloetta can also hit Mamoswine and Skarmory for super effective damage. (I know you have Fire Blast, but what if rain!?)
I'm not sure how well Mence deals with other Pokemon that wall Meloetta though.

Also, is Naive nature right? -Atk +SpA? I would have thought Adamant or maybe Naughty would be more appropriate.

^- Mind Blanked.

Like ginganinja, I'm going to be proposing Thundurus-T, but the Agility set instead for a couple of reasons:



Thundurus-T (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Ok, so Nasty Plot boosts up and blows stuff up. However, considering the great coverage of Meloetta, we kind of already have a wallbreaker of sorts on Team 1. Enter Agility Thundurus-T. The power you lose from not using Nasty Plot is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you can run Modest instead of Timid as you will be boosting your Speed. After an Agility boost, the raw power of Thundurus-T will let it slice through teams. Thunderbolt is STAB and even if we opt for a rain team, Thundurus-T should not run Thunder. Why? Agility Thundurus-T aims to sweep and it would be a real shame if our STAB move becomes unreliable just due to opposing weather. Focus Blast is there for the likes of Heatran and Ferrothorn while HP Ice sticks it to Landorus-T, Gliscor, Salamence, and other 4x weak Pokemon or those that resist Tbolt (Celebi for example) The EVs are fairly straightforward. With max Speed and a Modest nature, Thundurus-T is able to outspeed neutral base 100s and below before an Agility should he not have time to boost up with Agility. With max Special Attack, Thundurus-T hits a staggering 427 Special Attack. The remaining EVs are just put in Special Defense as Thundurus-T's uninvested HP hits a Life Orb number (299)

CeleTran is defeated by Hydreigon (although I would opt for a variant with Earth Power or Roost to better deal with the CeleTran in question), however it does somewhat compounds our team's weakness to Breloom and Scizor's Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. For this reason I prefer Thundurus-T; it fits the offensive style we're aiming for while not caring *too* much about them Tech Punches.

Scarf Landorus-T is not that bad an option, either - provides a decent revenge-killer and Celebi runs for cover lest it sacrifice itself to U-turn.

I'll suggest SD Heracross - more wallbreaker goodness.


Heracross @ Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge

Assuming Rain is present Heracross dgaf about Fire moves from Celebi / Heatran, while a burn or paralysis will only enhance its wallbreaking capabilities. Megahorn annihilates Psychic-types for Meloetta.

Well, first, let me say this: Porygon2 with Signal Beam will beat both Heatran and Celebi easily (Tracing Flash Fire/Natural Cure and healing up with Recover, while wrecking Celebi with Signal Beam) but it's terribly gimmicky, and has pretty much no synergy with Meloetta.

Right now, the problem is that CeleTran is an ungodly combo, and that puts a damper on things.

Meloetta's teammate has to be able to:

1- Take a Will-o-Wisp without being crippled (so that rules out physical attackers like Landorus)

2- Take a Thunder Wave without being crippled (Choice Scarf is then a pretty bad idea)

3- Either outspeed Celebi or not mind taking +2 Giga Drain or HP Fire.

4- Either heavily damage Heatran, or be able to come into SR repeatedly as you keep being Roared out.

With that in mind, I'll suggest


Nidoking @ Life Orb
Sheer Force
Timid
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Earth Power
Flamethrower
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt

Thankfully, Celebi is running a Modest nature, meaning Nidoking can switch in with impunity on Thunder Wave or Nasty Plot, or take around 50% from an unboosted Giga Drain, and threaten both with OHKOs. Similarly, Nidoking can switch in on anything Heatran does, and force it out.

Nidoking also helps out Meloetta by punching holes in the opponent's team, making Meloetta's sweep a lot easier.

Sharpteeth said:

Well, first, let me say this: Porygon2 with Signal Beam will beat both Heatran and Celebi easily (Tracing Flash Fire/Natural Cure and healing up with Recover, while wrecking Celebi with Signal Beam) but it's terribly gimmicky, and has pretty much no synergy with Meloetta.

Right now, the problem is that CeleTran is an ungodly combo, and that puts a damper on things.

Meloetta's teammate has to be able to:

1- Take a Will-o-Wisp without being crippled (so that rules out physical attackers like Landorus)

2- Take a Thunder Wave without being crippled (Choice Scarf is then a pretty bad idea)

3- Either outspeed Celebi or not mind taking +2 Giga Drain or HP Fire.

4- Either heavily damage Heatran, or be able to come into SR repeatedly as you keep being Roared out.

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I disagree with the fact that it should have to be able to take a will-o-wisp because in Landorus's case at least it's not necessarily going to be switching directly into Heatran (and you'll have 4 other teammates to either absorb it or just shrug off a burn, plus 75 is shaky acc anyways). Choice Scarf is fine on Landorus because it's immune to thunder wave, and even if celebi gets up to +2 with rock factored in Lando's U-turn KO's more than half of the time. without rocks it still has a slight chance to KO. And it outspeeds Celebi with a scarf so theres no problem with taking a +2 hit. And Landorus can hit heatran hard with a STAB EQ. I still feel my suggestion is valid although you do bring up interesting points to consider.

Sharpteeth said:

With that in mind, I'll suggest

Nidoking @ Life Orb
Sheer Force
Timid
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Earth Power
Flamethrower
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt

Thankfully, Celebi is running a Modest nature, meaning Nidoking can switch in with impunity on Thunder Wave or Nasty Plot, or take around 50% from an unboosted Giga Drain, and threaten both with OHKOs. Similarly, Nidoking can switch in on anything Heatran does, and force it out.

Nidoking also helps out Meloetta by punching holes in the opponent's team, making Meloetta's sweep a lot easier.

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Nidoking can't switch in if celebi nasty plots btw, it's OHKO'd by giga drain and Ice Beam only does 75-89% to celebi.

In Regards to Agility Thundurus-T

EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef / 168 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

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I don't like that EV spread, simply because Team 2 is going to exploit that original lack of speed in a heartbeat. Sure, after a Agility boost, you are faster than most things, but the bulk (imo) doesn't really offer you much, and personally I would rather max my speed, since it really makes it harder for Team 2 to outspeed and Ko Thundurus-T before it pulls off an agility

Just in regards to NP vs Agility Thundurus, irrc the only problems I can foresee is shit like Specially Defensive Jirachi or something, which can go for a Body Slam and kinda screw us up, it even has Wish to keep other shit healthy. Its prolly not a great example but the point is Nasty Plot will break through (basically) any wall in the game, while agility is going to outspeed everything in the game. Pick your poison I guess.

I support G-Von's suggestion of DD Moxiemence however i would for a set more like

Salamence@ Yache Berry
Trait: Moxie
EV's: 252 Atk/ 4SAtk/ 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

Because Mence has bee trolled hard by the base 101 Scarfers i think that running Yache Berry is a better alternative as it prevents him from being revenge killed by Scarf Thundurus, Mamoswine and basically any other Ice type move. It will still hit like a truck mind you but it does have the advantage of making him harder to deal with. Anyway my 2 cents :/

Don't like hijacking the thread with my own posts but...

Salamence@ Yache Berry
Trait: Moxie
EV's: 252 Atk/ 4SAtk/ 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

Click to expand...

This thing doesn't switch in and beat Celebi OR Heatran (IMO). Its walking in on a status move like Thunder Wave, or a burn and getting crippled, period. I don't actually like Salamence period but if it has to be used, I would also go for Lum, especially as Yache isn't really doing anything. Team 2 KNOW our team, they will just opt for something else that can beat DD Mence (and with no LO you lose a lot of power so easier to counter), making Yache ineffective.

Wow, so many sets, and a good portion of them is quite good. Going to comment on some of those, and on the whole Rain discussion. I guess I'm stealing Xelacalle's post formatting since it's really awesome!


Gliscor, as Ginganinja argued, sure can KO Team 2 with ease right now, but cannot switch into Heatran since a burn will completely shut down it, and cannot really switch into Celebi either, since it will take 50% or more damage from an unboosted Giga Drain, and that's quite bad since it has no means of recovery. On the other hand, it has quite good type synergy with Meloetta, but right now it's not one of my favorite nominations for sure.


Thundurus-T is an excellent suggestion, maybe the one I like most (except my Heatran, of course), and was one of the reasons I proposed SpD Hippowdon back in the last round. Right now, Thundurus just wrecks Celebi and can cause serious headaches even to Heatran if you allow it to boost. It's also a Flying-type, thus have good synergy with Meloetta. Brilliant suggestion, I'd say.


I don't like those. They cannot switch in on Celebi without taking a good chunk of damage or being crippled by Thunder Wave. Mamoswine won't like switching into Heatran, either, and picking Adamant exposes it even to Breloom.


Salamence can kinda work, but it's checked so easily that Team 2 won't have many problems to be prepared for it. Just take something base 101+ scarfed with a SE attack and you're done. For example, Scarf Terrakion, which at the moment is also quite good against Meloetta-P.


Gallade is crippled by Heatran; it can work otherwise, it's just I don't like it that much myself...


Hydreigon is good, doesn't like T-Wave but can work even if statused. However I agree with Pocket, a set with Earth Power will deal with Heatran much easier, since Focus Blast is not exactly reliable, and a Roar by Heatran on a missed Focus Blast (heck, even if FB connects, since it only deals about 60%) is a quite large loss of momentum.


Heracross is a good suggestion, and I would really love to see it shine. However, it assumes rain and thus picking it is a dead giveaway we are using a rain team; while running Rain on its own can be good, forcing ourselves to do so too early can give the edge to Team 2. See the following point for more clarification...


To comment about Heatran, one must take weather into consideration, for sure. The most common objection, right now, to Heatran, is that forces us to not use Rain, which is exactly what Team 2 wants. I don't really agree on that matter; well, Team 2 can take advantage of us not taking Rain, of course, but it can take advantage even if we take it! Don't forget that doing so will enable them to pick Swift Swimmers, that can have quite a bit of impact on us. Even if they don't do so, they still can run something like SpD Jirachi without fear, since Fire weakness is substantially removed, and can easily check quite a big portion of common rain abusers. Furthermore, their Heatran will be underwhelming, but Celebi can come in on Politoed as it pleases, and spread paralysis on our team, if Thundurus has been previously eliminated/weakened. So, unless we decide to take Politoed as our last pick, Team 2 can still punish us regardless of the choice we do. Thus, I find more valuable to be able to virtually wall/set-up on the entirety of Team 2 right now than to allow us to maybe choose Rain later, and resort to a less effective pick.

I think it's about time we had a hazard setter for team one. Let me introduce to you: The almighty Half-Tank, Half-Alien Blob:


With it's colossal defensive stats and his decent base speed, this thing makes the perfect candidate for a Spikes setter. It fears absolutely nothing that either Pokémon from Team Two are packing. Celebi at +2 is only going to 3HKO Deoxys. Without it's Nasty Plot boost, this thing has no hope in hell of killing Deoxys-D outside of disgusting Parahax. Taunt it on the switch, continue laying Spikes in it's face whilst Recovering any damage it might attempt to do. This Deoxys-D also laughs in Heatrans face while throwing Spikes onto his side of the battlefield.

Whilst it shares weaknesses with Meloetta in one of it's forms, this thing can take hits. The amount of Specially Offensive threats this thing checks is unbelievable. It can take two Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteors. That's not an easy thing for any Pokémon to achieve, especially one who doesn't resist it. Need I say anymore?

A bit about the moveset: Spikes, rather self explanatory. It's highly likely that this thing is going to get all three layers of Spikes up due to it's insane bulk. Taunt is there to prevent Setup sweepers, well, setting up, as well as to prevent it being status'd. It also allows it to render slower support Pokés virtually useless; Ferrothorn, Forretress, Pink Blob sisters, Donphan, Gastrodon, Heatran, Hippowdon, and so many more. Recover; does this need any explanation? Instant and reliable recovery. Beautiful stuff. The last move of the set is up for debate, I'm currently leaning towards Night Shade though. It was a toss-up between Night Shade, Toxic, Magic Coat and Stealth Rock. However I came to the conclusion that at least one damaging move was necessary, to prevent it being shut down by fast Taunters and Pranksters.

It performs well under all weathers, in any kind of team, with any kind of support. This thing is so versatile, it should be considered for any team.

Deoxys-D is a great suggestion that I was going to nominate for later ;d The Meloetta set specifically forces lots of switches, so Deoxys-D's hazard-stacking capabilities are well-appreciated. Celebi won't be able to stomache 2 hits from Meloetta after some hazard layers.

Stealth Rock >>>> Recover, though. The beauty of Deoxys-D is the ability to set up both Rocks and Spikes in one set without wasting another slot for hazard-setting.

Pocket said:

Deoxys-D is a great suggestion that I was going to nominate for later ;d The Meloetta set specifically forces lots of switches, so Deoxys-D's hazard-stacking capabilities are well-appreciated. Celebi won't be able to stomache 2 hits from Meloetta after some hazard layers.

Stealth Rock >>>> Recover, though. The beauty of Deoxys-D is the ability to set up both Rocks and Spikes in one set without wasting another slot for hazard-setting.

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That was my reasoning behind the pick; the switches that are forced not only by Meloetta herself, but by Deoxys as well as many Pokés struggle to dent it. I will update the set to include Stealth Rock at your suggestion. The reasoning behind Recover was that as it's the bulky version of Deoxys it would be better to keep it around longer so that it can continue sponging hits; however with SR instead, do you think it a good idea to switch EVs from SpD to Spe? With max Speed EVs it outspeeds NP Celebi, meaning it can Taunt before it has a chance to setup, potentially removing the need for Recover. Thoughts?

To comment about Heatran, one must take weather into consideration, for sure. The most common objection, right now, to Heatran, is that forces us to not use Rain, which is exactly what Team 2 wants. I don't really agree on that matter; well, Team 2 can take advantage of us not taking Rain, of course, but it can take advantage even if we take it! Don't forget that doing so will enable them to pick Swift Swimmers, that can have quite a bit of impact on us. Even if they don't do so, they still can run something like SpD Jirachi without fear, since Fire weakness is substantially removed, and can easily check quite a big portion of common rain abusers. Furthermore, their Heatran will be underwhelming, but Celebi can come in on Politoed as it pleases, and spread paralysis on our team, if Thundurus has been previously eliminated/weakened. So, unless we decide to take Politoed as our last pick, Team 2 can still punish us regardless of the choice we do. Thus, I find more valuable to be able to virtually wall/set-up on the entirety of Team 2 right now than to allow us to maybe choose Rain later, and resort to a less effective pick.

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Good points, but I just want to bring up that when I envisioned rain possibly getting used, it was always going to be as a final pick in order to minimise a full on counter team. Therefore, I am really happy selecting pokemon that work well in rain, but not actually NEED rain to be up in order to be effective. Team 2 can add a Swift Swimmer if they really want, but that just means we don't run rain, and they get stuck with a useless pokemon like Kingdra, which we can exploit. They can run Specially Defensive Jirachi if they want, however quite frankly nothing is stopping us from adding a counter for it, and still bring able to run rain if we wanted. Besides, if they run Specially Defensive Jirachi, thats 3 pokemon Thundurus-T can destroy if it gets a NP boost, AND blunts their offensive potential. Quite frankly, keeping our options open with something like Thundurus is perfectly fine, it keeps Team 2 guessing, whereas something like Heatran sends up a red flag that we are not using Rain, which removes the possibility of a big threat to Team 2. So long as Rain is an option, its going to play on the minds on the pokemon selected for Team 2, giving Team 1 a large advantage.

tl;dr

Lets use shit that works in and out of rain until we are certain of our direction (which will be at the end game basically). Makes for cool mindgames which make for a fun exercise!!!