Eviolite Sawk ? Oo
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Theorymon Sessions
- Thread starter jake
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Eviolite Sawk wouldn't be great without Bulk Up, since he would neither hit as hard nor go as fast as the current standard. And if you're using Bulk Up, just go for Eviolite Throh. (Assuming that he would be able to use Eviolite if Sawk could.)
As for gaining U-Turn, that would actually make Sawk completely outclass Primeape in every way. Sure, Primeape's a tad faster, but it doesn't OHKO Gardevoir with U-Turn. Hell, CB Sawk could deal more than 50% damage to Musharna with it. Now, if that Z on his face qualified him for Megahorn... :naughty:
What if Metang gets Shift Gear? (Other than making Metagross more relevant in OU.)
Supreme tank, yes? Fixes up that speed, and it patches up his attack. Spam Meteor Mash for more attack boosts, and you have some serious bulky offense. Consider that not even powerful fire types can end him without wacky circumstances. Lampent needs Flash Fire activated while holding a Life Orb to get the KO with fire Blast. And for neutral attacks, Specs+Torrent Simipour only deals 70% with Hydro Pump. Max Attack Linoone only gets a shaky 4HKO with Extremespeed. That there is a wacky wall.
As for gaining U-Turn, that would actually make Sawk completely outclass Primeape in every way. Sure, Primeape's a tad faster, but it doesn't OHKO Gardevoir with U-Turn. Hell, CB Sawk could deal more than 50% damage to Musharna with it. Now, if that Z on his face qualified him for Megahorn... :naughty:
What if Metang gets Shift Gear? (Other than making Metagross more relevant in OU.)
Supreme tank, yes? Fixes up that speed, and it patches up his attack. Spam Meteor Mash for more attack boosts, and you have some serious bulky offense. Consider that not even powerful fire types can end him without wacky circumstances. Lampent needs Flash Fire activated while holding a Life Orb to get the KO with fire Blast. And for neutral attacks, Specs+Torrent Simipour only deals 70% with Hydro Pump. Max Attack Linoone only gets a shaky 4HKO with Extremespeed. That there is a wacky wall.
I'd actually want U-turn more than Megahorn; it has more battle utility, but...
Code:
252Atk Mold Breaker Sawk (+Atk) Megahorn vs 252HP/0Def Musharna
(Neutral): 73% - 86% (320 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
I updated the OP with help from Starships to include every single question asked in this thread. Feel free to respond to any that intrigue you, or maybe some of the older ones with respect to the new metagame changes. I'm particularly looking forward to addressing WhiteDMist's suggestion of Bulk Up Kangaskhan, if no one else does it before I do. MAN that is such a good idea.
I'd also like to take this post to remind people to please try to keep your theorymonning realistic and plausible and to think of changes that won't necessarily make the Pokemon unstoppable. To use a couple examples from recent posts, I don't really like the suggestions of U-turn on Sawk because it's quite clearly an attempt to push it to outclass Primeape again and makes it very very very good, or removing Volt Tackle recoil simply because a move with 120 BP and no drawback is incredible and really shouldn't exist. (Maybe it'd be better if you dropped the accuracy to 70% instead of the recoil..? That'd be much more realistic.)
Thanks guys! Keep it up. :)
I'd also like to take this post to remind people to please try to keep your theorymonning realistic and plausible and to think of changes that won't necessarily make the Pokemon unstoppable. To use a couple examples from recent posts, I don't really like the suggestions of U-turn on Sawk because it's quite clearly an attempt to push it to outclass Primeape again and makes it very very very good, or removing Volt Tackle recoil simply because a move with 120 BP and no drawback is incredible and really shouldn't exist. (Maybe it'd be better if you dropped the accuracy to 70% instead of the recoil..? That'd be much more realistic.)
Also, please try to put effort into your posts and kick off the possibilities / usefulness of your suggestion. I won't delete this because other people responded, but I will delete any future effortless posts.
Thanks guys! Keep it up. :)
Nice idea with the new changes; I suppose that this would be a great idea in terms of getting potentially satisfying speculations within the spotlight of discussion.
Now, I suppose that it's time that I'd take a shot into this. This is my first time making a speculation of a certain theorymoning idea, so bear with me if you feel that my suggestions may end up theoretically affecting the current state of the balance of the metagame.
What if Linoone received Scrappy? This would be decidedly justifiable in the fact that various other Normal types receives this ability to begin with, as it's often the Pokemon who's concept of their beings are irrelevant to that of ghosts. As a Belly Drum sweeper, as tedious and difficult it can be to gain a well timed Belly Drum setup on the road of sweeping whole teams, it tends to fail to live off the risk of making such a significant boost to exceptional success in some aspects. A large part of it has to do with it being strained into running a coverage move (known as Shadow Claw) for the liberty of breaking past one of Linoone's main obstacles; Ghost-types, who forces Linoone to forgo a useful tool in Return for Shadow Claw and depending on your EV spread, leads to you getting outsped by them. With Scrappy, Linoone will finally gain the ability to run other coverage moves to deal with other situations (particularly Return to gain KO's on several walls), since a boosted Extremespeed with then gain the KO on essentially every Ghost-type Pokemon (as even the most physically defensive varient of Misdreavus has a solid chance of being OHKO'd after Stealth Rock damage) in the tier. Even outside of sweeping, this allows Linoone to obtain some neat revenge kills on various offensive Ghost-type Pokemon like a weakened Haunter or Driftblim. Overall, I feel that's it's a really useful buff that doesn't overly pushing it to the limit of its overall presence of the metagame.
What if Swanna received Adaptability? Another example of an ability that would evidence a point as to why it should have this ability since as a beautiful swan, it appears to have grown from its "ugly duckling" status and grown into something that will surely adapt towards its nature, if you so catch my drift. Based upon how Swanna is generally used, I think that this would be a pretty darn well rounded ability for it that can for sure cause it to trump out of its "underdog" status in terms of usage and possibly because of the most devastating offensive Pokemon in the tier. It also has several uses of utilizing this ability due to its un-resisted STAB in the NU tier and the absurd power boost in Hurricane. It will definitely benefit with this, especially with the lack of Hydro Pump to use for a Water STAB, and the question is, how prevalent of a threat would you see of this Pokemon with the new-founded ability for it?
What if Roselia could use Spikes alongside Sleep Powder? This would be a really benefit upgrade within its set that allows Roselia to incapacitate something via sleep within the same set that utilizes the most prevalent hazard in the tier. Sleep Powder also allows it to gain a free opportunity to set up a layer of Spikes unhindered or simply gain some nice offensive momentum. It would be another great take of Roselia's supporting capabilities.
What do you all think of these ideas?
Now, I suppose that it's time that I'd take a shot into this. This is my first time making a speculation of a certain theorymoning idea, so bear with me if you feel that my suggestions may end up theoretically affecting the current state of the balance of the metagame.
What if Linoone received Scrappy? This would be decidedly justifiable in the fact that various other Normal types receives this ability to begin with, as it's often the Pokemon who's concept of their beings are irrelevant to that of ghosts. As a Belly Drum sweeper, as tedious and difficult it can be to gain a well timed Belly Drum setup on the road of sweeping whole teams, it tends to fail to live off the risk of making such a significant boost to exceptional success in some aspects. A large part of it has to do with it being strained into running a coverage move (known as Shadow Claw) for the liberty of breaking past one of Linoone's main obstacles; Ghost-types, who forces Linoone to forgo a useful tool in Return for Shadow Claw and depending on your EV spread, leads to you getting outsped by them. With Scrappy, Linoone will finally gain the ability to run other coverage moves to deal with other situations (particularly Return to gain KO's on several walls), since a boosted Extremespeed with then gain the KO on essentially every Ghost-type Pokemon (as even the most physically defensive varient of Misdreavus has a solid chance of being OHKO'd after Stealth Rock damage) in the tier. Even outside of sweeping, this allows Linoone to obtain some neat revenge kills on various offensive Ghost-type Pokemon like a weakened Haunter or Driftblim. Overall, I feel that's it's a really useful buff that doesn't overly pushing it to the limit of its overall presence of the metagame.
What if Swanna received Adaptability? Another example of an ability that would evidence a point as to why it should have this ability since as a beautiful swan, it appears to have grown from its "ugly duckling" status and grown into something that will surely adapt towards its nature, if you so catch my drift. Based upon how Swanna is generally used, I think that this would be a pretty darn well rounded ability for it that can for sure cause it to trump out of its "underdog" status in terms of usage and possibly because of the most devastating offensive Pokemon in the tier. It also has several uses of utilizing this ability due to its un-resisted STAB in the NU tier and the absurd power boost in Hurricane. It will definitely benefit with this, especially with the lack of Hydro Pump to use for a Water STAB, and the question is, how prevalent of a threat would you see of this Pokemon with the new-founded ability for it?
What if Roselia could use Spikes alongside Sleep Powder? This would be a really benefit upgrade within its set that allows Roselia to incapacitate something via sleep within the same set that utilizes the most prevalent hazard in the tier. Sleep Powder also allows it to gain a free opportunity to set up a layer of Spikes unhindered or simply gain some nice offensive momentum. It would be another great take of Roselia's supporting capabilities.
What do you all think of these ideas?
Wow yes, Scrappy Linoone would be so awesome. It seems very plausible that Linoone would get it, except for it already has three possible abilities (including DW) and you never see anything with four options, but anyway. Now, even without a Pursuit-trapper (*cough* Skuntank) Linoone can run Adamant because it no longer has to worry about outspeeding Haunter, since at +6, Espeed kills not one, but three Haunters.
The only other half-decent options Linoone has to replace Shadow Claw are Return, Gunk Shot, Iron Tail, and Dig, so Return is likely going to be the move of choice in order to net KOs against key opponents that live with a smidgen after an Espeed. Even without a +Speed nature, Linoone's fantastic base 100 Speed doesn't require the use of Espeed that often.
The only other half-decent options Linoone has to replace Shadow Claw are Return, Gunk Shot, Iron Tail, and Dig, so Return is likely going to be the move of choice in order to net KOs against key opponents that live with a smidgen after an Espeed. Even without a +Speed nature, Linoone's fantastic base 100 Speed doesn't require the use of Espeed that often.
Everybody here forgot that the "Eviolite Sawk" comment was an answer on the post above and not a suggestion, where the calculation from an Extremespeed Pikachu against Sawk was against an Eviolite-equipped Sawk, thus being moot.
Even a massively powerful drawback-free STAB for Pikachu wouldn't be broken because Pikachu is still frail as hell. Volt Tackle also has the benefit of being a signature move, which means it does not affect anything else besides the Pikachu-line, of which Pikachu has the equalivent of Base 110 Atk (with Life Orb) and Raichu has Base 90 Atk, and let's face it, both aren't that high.
Then, there is Pichu, but this thing is not used in LC anyway, so it wouldn't change much bar that it is better at spamming Volt Tackle.
And last but not least, Smeargle, who has better things to do as well as having no Attack stat to speak of.
I see what you mean though, but I considered that already when I suggested it and thought it would not be broken unless Volt Tackle would suddenly get a somewhat wide distribution.
It probably may not be a big impact to the meta as most people might believe, but it still a Pokemon to be prepared for. Most people will now run a Rock or Steel Type bulky enough to withstand a hit from a +6 Attack Linoone, such as Regirock and Probopass. People will definitely use Kangaskhan (or Persian, lol) more to do some damage. Linoone can also use a bulkier spread to tank some hits, like 252 in HP and Attack. But the meta is so unkind to him because of constant offensive pressure making setting up for Linoone difficult.
Swanna is a really underrated mon. Not many can tank its hits barring dedicated special walls, which are becoming less seen on the ladder for reasons I don't know. Adaptability on Swanna will make it a better Pokemon, no doubt about that. It also outspeeds base 95s! Players usually say it's a must have to carry a Flying resist, but they usually forget this mon carries another STAB move that can wreck them. I see Electrics being more popular, namely those who naturally outspeed Swanna such as Electabuzz and Zebstrika. With Adaptability or not, Swanna is a pretty damn good nom!
It will be really hard to use stall teams since Roselia can cripple most of them as they are usually slower than it, and it can throw up Spikes when they're sleeping. Sleep Powder is still pretty inaccurate though, and I'm still pretty sure that Scolipede will still be more prevalent because its Speed is enough to make it a more reliable Spiker than Roselia.
Hey Dell, solid theorymon questions. I think all of them could be really cool in one way or another.
Scrappy Linoone
Really neat idea here. The coolest part about it is most likely just that it can run Return over Shadow Claw. This gives it the advantage of taking out bulkier mons that can survive an Extremespeed but could not survive a Return. An example of this is Misdreavus.
252Atk +6 Scrappy Linoone (Neutral) Return vs 252HP/232Def Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (+Def): 91% - 108% (297 - 351 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 50% chance to OHKO.
Linoone already 2HKOs Alomomola, so the only other Pokemon it makes a difference when fighting is Tangela who can miss out on the 2HKO vs Linoone.
252Atk +6 Scrappy Linoone (Neutral) ExtremeSpeed vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 45% - 53% (153 - 180 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO.
On the other hand, Return does offer the 2HKO.
Otherwise, it doesn't make a huge difference, but it's still a lot better than Pickup. I guess it beats Scarf Haunter which is also pretty cool.
Adaptability Swanna
This would hit so hard. A pretty standard set of Life Orb Rain Dance/Hurricane/Surf|Hydro Pump/Roost would be really interesting when taking Adaptability into account. Max SpD Munchlax is still only 3HKOed by Rain boosted Surf, so that's kind of annoying. The issue with this is that its checks and counters are probably still very much the same. Scarfed Electric-types still can revenge it. Munchlax, as previously stated, laughs at it. Other specially bulky mons like Articuno can handle it with relative ease as well and take advantage of the rain for its own Hurricane. Outside of its checks/counters, it would be a much more effective mon though in my opinion.
Spikes and Sleep Powder Roselia
PLEASE. The only issue with this is that I don't know it would have dropped from RU with access to both, but still. PLEASE GIVE ME THIS. With both moves in its arsenal at the same time, Roselia could set up Spikes with relative ease, getting up at least one free layer assuming it hits its Sleep Powder. On top of that, there is basically a 75% chance of crippling an opposing Pokemon for the entire game due to BW sleep mechanics. This would establish Roselia as a prominent Spike user within the tier and would give it something to compete with Garbodor's superior bulk and Scolipede's superior Speed.
Scrappy Linoone
Really neat idea here. The coolest part about it is most likely just that it can run Return over Shadow Claw. This gives it the advantage of taking out bulkier mons that can survive an Extremespeed but could not survive a Return. An example of this is Misdreavus.
252Atk +6 Scrappy Linoone (Neutral) Return vs 252HP/232Def Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (+Def): 91% - 108% (297 - 351 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 50% chance to OHKO.
Linoone already 2HKOs Alomomola, so the only other Pokemon it makes a difference when fighting is Tangela who can miss out on the 2HKO vs Linoone.
252Atk +6 Scrappy Linoone (Neutral) ExtremeSpeed vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 45% - 53% (153 - 180 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO.
On the other hand, Return does offer the 2HKO.
Otherwise, it doesn't make a huge difference, but it's still a lot better than Pickup. I guess it beats Scarf Haunter which is also pretty cool.
Adaptability Swanna
This would hit so hard. A pretty standard set of Life Orb Rain Dance/Hurricane/Surf|Hydro Pump/Roost would be really interesting when taking Adaptability into account. Max SpD Munchlax is still only 3HKOed by Rain boosted Surf, so that's kind of annoying. The issue with this is that its checks and counters are probably still very much the same. Scarfed Electric-types still can revenge it. Munchlax, as previously stated, laughs at it. Other specially bulky mons like Articuno can handle it with relative ease as well and take advantage of the rain for its own Hurricane. Outside of its checks/counters, it would be a much more effective mon though in my opinion.
Spikes and Sleep Powder Roselia
PLEASE. The only issue with this is that I don't know it would have dropped from RU with access to both, but still. PLEASE GIVE ME THIS. With both moves in its arsenal at the same time, Roselia could set up Spikes with relative ease, getting up at least one free layer assuming it hits its Sleep Powder. On top of that, there is basically a 75% chance of crippling an opposing Pokemon for the entire game due to BW sleep mechanics. This would establish Roselia as a prominent Spike user within the tier and would give it something to compete with Garbodor's superior bulk and Scolipede's superior Speed.
I guess I forgot to take the Eviolite off after I did the misdreavus calc.
Well, there goes that point.
When it comes to Roselia with Sleep Powder and Spikes, I honestly don't think it would be NU. The power to neuter an opponent for basically a whole match and set up Spikes to boot is one any defensive poke would like. While it would still lack the offensive presence of Scolipede, Roselia is already deceptively bulky, and wouldn't have a problem taking a neutral attack before it puts the opponent to sleep (unlike Jynx, a fellow sleep inducer). I could see it being easily an A- or low S-rank poke at that point. Considering how RU was already resorting to NU mons for Spiking, I wouldn't be surprised if they snatched it up from us if Roselia could use both moves.
Of course if it were to stay in NU, we'd probably see more Band or Specs pokes with fire or flying type moves.
I would have added this to my previous post, but new post so~
I have played with QuiverPass Masquerain a couple of times now, and it's surprisingly effective. That said, with Compoundeyes Sleep Powder at its disposal, how do you think Butterfree would fare with Baton Pass?
I have played with QuiverPass Masquerain a couple of times now, and it's surprisingly effective. That said, with Compoundeyes Sleep Powder at its disposal, how do you think Butterfree would fare with Baton Pass?
How do you think Butterfree would fair with Baton Pass?
I think Butterfree has multiple niches in the current meta already. She's one of the few good sleep leads in the tier (being so intimidating to me when it was becoming more prominent that I ran Lum Berry Golem), who can set up QuiverDances and a sub, then sweep entire teams with a +6 Bug Buzz(assuming it uses Tinted Lens). But, with Baton Pass, Butterfree would be free (see what I did there?) to use Compoundeyes instead, set up a Sub and a few Quiver Dances and pass it to something like a LO Jynx and destroy the soul of your opponent, all with little risk due to a 91% accuracy Sleep Powder. I say Butterfree would become the top Baton Pass in the tier, setting up major sweeps for the myriad of special attackers in the tier, with the possibility of avoiding priority by keeping a free Sub.
That was an awesome subject, I really enjoyed thinking about it :).
I think I have one that could spark the same feeling of interest that I was feeling when I read your question:
What if Drifblim got Hurricane?
Now hear me out here: Drifblim is a balloon. Why would he learn Hurricane? Well, I think it has amazing flavor to it. Drifblim learns (I believe) all of the weathers bar Sandstorm. He also learns Weather Ball. Obviously, GameFreak is punny like me and made Drifblim a Weather balloon. Why not give him one of the strongest Flying-Type moves in the game? With STAB no less? With the ability to set up his own rain, abuse 100BP Water-Type Weather Ball, a 100% accurate Thunder or Hurricane, Shadow Ball, as well as other staples like Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and Disable (not so sure about DBond, since Hurricane would allow him to kill more things.) AND Unburden, Drifblim would become a monster in the current metagame and I think it would make this balloon with a small niche as a utility mon a Special attacking powerhouse.
I think Butterfree has multiple niches in the current meta already. She's one of the few good sleep leads in the tier (being so intimidating to me when it was becoming more prominent that I ran Lum Berry Golem), who can set up QuiverDances and a sub, then sweep entire teams with a +6 Bug Buzz(assuming it uses Tinted Lens). But, with Baton Pass, Butterfree would be free (see what I did there?) to use Compoundeyes instead, set up a Sub and a few Quiver Dances and pass it to something like a LO Jynx and destroy the soul of your opponent, all with little risk due to a 91% accuracy Sleep Powder. I say Butterfree would become the top Baton Pass in the tier, setting up major sweeps for the myriad of special attackers in the tier, with the possibility of avoiding priority by keeping a free Sub.
That was an awesome subject, I really enjoyed thinking about it :).
I think I have one that could spark the same feeling of interest that I was feeling when I read your question:
What if Drifblim got Hurricane?
Now hear me out here: Drifblim is a balloon. Why would he learn Hurricane? Well, I think it has amazing flavor to it. Drifblim learns (I believe) all of the weathers bar Sandstorm. He also learns Weather Ball. Obviously, GameFreak is punny like me and made Drifblim a Weather balloon. Why not give him one of the strongest Flying-Type moves in the game? With STAB no less? With the ability to set up his own rain, abuse 100BP Water-Type Weather Ball, a 100% accurate Thunder or Hurricane, Shadow Ball, as well as other staples like Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and Disable (not so sure about DBond, since Hurricane would allow him to kill more things.) AND Unburden, Drifblim would become a monster in the current metagame and I think it would make this balloon with a small niche as a utility mon a Special attacking powerhouse.
Smeargle called; it wants its RU set back.
In all seriousness though, this thing would probably play very similarly to Ninjask. The 4x Stealth Rock weakness is crippling unless you (a) use it as a lead, (b) carry a spinner, or (c) keep enough offensive pressure on the opponent to prevent rocks, which is difficult to do. This makes Butterfree incredible predictable, but nonetheless effective if played correctly. Sleep Powder effectively gives Butterfree Spore, arguably one of the most overpowered moves in the game. Quiver Dance and subsequent Baton Passes could serve to facilitate a Samurott, Jynx, Charizard, or any special sweep feasible.
As they both perform a largely similar role, Ninjask and Butterfree would eventually be known as the quintessential passers for their respective attacking types. Each would have its pros and cons: Ninjask would have Speed Boost so it could guarantee a boost without using a move, not to mention superior speed, and Butterfree would have sleep-inducing moves and the ability to boost SDef as well.
I don't think that one would end up more popular than the other. Butterfree would end up being used by newbie players, much like Ninjask is today (in the way that they are always used as a lead with little support). Professional players would loathe the bug, claiming that its strategy is "not complex enough" or "lame" or "a cheap way to win". Yep. It'd be a Special Ninjask.
Maybe a set like this?leafshield said:
Drifblim @ Water Gem
Trait: Unburden
EVs: 64 HP / 240 SAtk / 200 Spe
-Rain Dance
-Thunder
-Weather Ball
-Hurricane
It's kind of hard to fit every move that you want on there, and the item (damp rock? flying gem? water gem?) would be weird to pick out, but I can see it potentially happening. I bet he'd see about as much usage as other rain sweepers these days, but he misses out on things like STAB Hydro Pump, although awesome coverage and Unburden kind of make up for that.
Sorry, still getting a feel for how ideas should work around here. I just want Sawk back so bad...Zebraiken said:
The fact that butterfree has a sleep inducing move would make it completely different from ninjask. The ability to essentially render useless one poke while setting up quiver dances or even baton passing after sleep powder to gain momentum and scout out if the opponent sends in a scarfed pokemon expecting a quiver dance would be monumental. I would think butterfree could also be a stand alone sweeper with bug buzz and tinted lens.
However, it would not be that powerful, that professional players would loathe it. Ninjask also isn't a newbie strategy anyway, if executed properly, ninjask and its ability to baton pass is one of the most threatening pokes in the tier.
However, it would not be that powerful, that professional players would loathe it. Ninjask also isn't a newbie strategy anyway, if executed properly, ninjask and its ability to baton pass is one of the most threatening pokes in the tier.
That's the potential beauty of Hurricane Driflbim imo. You can run a plethora of set with it. Some I thought of off the bat are Sub+RainDance+2 Attacks (most likely Weather Ball and Hurricane with a Water Gem to boost its power.), CM with Rain Dance and 2 Attacks, RD + 3 Attacks (putting Thunder in, since Water-Types sort of wall the set. Maybe even HP Grass to hit Seismitoad) with Unburden and such. Hell, Flare Boost is even interesting, but it sort of ruins his survivability, since he can't run ChestoRest if he has a Flame Orb. I say it has the potential to change the meta, maybe even bring Rain back to it's place as top weather over Sun in NU (imo, sun is much more dominant as Jynx and Scolipede hate sun.) and things like that.
idk, I thought it was a cool idea. It doesn't help that I'm hella biased and that Drifblim is my favorite Gen 4 mon though :x
idk, I thought it was a cool idea. It doesn't help that I'm hella biased and that Drifblim is my favorite Gen 4 mon though :x
In regards to Butterfree, I'm more interested in what Butterfree would possibly pair up with, if it did have Baton Pass. Gothorita comes to mind, as it can trap the opposing Pokemon, make use of the boosts itself and would likely rise in usage. Other relevant Special Attackers like Charizard (which is really good at the moment) could also become a bigger issue, and would have less of a need for Scarf to take on this faster metagame. With that in mind, SR could become more of a necessity to put a stop to Charizard, although Roost isn't uncommon on Zard, so it wouldn't really stop it too much.
Also, using opposing Gothorita to "stop" Charizard after one boost from BP wouldn't really be able to do much back in return though as:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 282-333 (87.03 - 102.77%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
(Pretty sure I did the calc right).
In regards to what can stop it, there's a whole lot of stuff. Sap Sipper mons (although mostly Miltank, as it could possibly run a specially defensive set and still hit Butterfree while it Quiver Dances) would likely be ran more to not allow Butterfree the free turn to set up. Primeape would probably be used a lot more than it is, as it can avoid sleep with Vital Spirit and OHKO with Stone Edge. Fake Out from LO Kanga can pretty much OHKO it if SR is up, meaning it'd have to be a lead to achieve much. Also Piloswine would probably be the most common SR lead (and maybe carry a Lum berry...?) since Ice Shard can do 95% and Icicle Spear can OHKO it, and could set up SR to prevent Butterfree from trying to sweep at a later time in the game.
It'd definitely be interesting, and set it a part from what it can do already. I mean, it'd certainly make Charizard a lot scarier, so I think there is good reason behind why it should be prepared for, rather than just dismiss it.
Also, using opposing Gothorita to "stop" Charizard after one boost from BP wouldn't really be able to do much back in return though as:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 282-333 (87.03 - 102.77%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
(Pretty sure I did the calc right).
In regards to what can stop it, there's a whole lot of stuff. Sap Sipper mons (although mostly Miltank, as it could possibly run a specially defensive set and still hit Butterfree while it Quiver Dances) would likely be ran more to not allow Butterfree the free turn to set up. Primeape would probably be used a lot more than it is, as it can avoid sleep with Vital Spirit and OHKO with Stone Edge. Fake Out from LO Kanga can pretty much OHKO it if SR is up, meaning it'd have to be a lead to achieve much. Also Piloswine would probably be the most common SR lead (and maybe carry a Lum berry...?) since Ice Shard can do 95% and Icicle Spear can OHKO it, and could set up SR to prevent Butterfree from trying to sweep at a later time in the game.
It'd definitely be interesting, and set it a part from what it can do already. I mean, it'd certainly make Charizard a lot scarier, so I think there is good reason behind why it should be prepared for, rather than just dismiss it.
What if Mantine got volt absorb/serene grace?
Pretty much the same thing, regarding mantine and abilities, but completely different things to do with it.
Serene grace
Mantine could be an absolute dick with serene grace. Using the common serene air slash that togekiss runs in UU, but then also having mantine using scald would mean that as a special wall it would wall a bunch of NU, and then with 60% to burn all physical switch-ins or slower physical pokemon mantine would shoot right up in usage and worth in NU. Know what else would shoot up though? Faster electric types, such as electabuzz or rotom-fan. Electric types would end up something compulsory on any good team, and as such ground types would also shoot up, and as such hidden power ice/grass would become more compulsory on electric types etc. etc. The impact one ability change would have on the metagame would keep evolving for a while.
Volt absorb:
While not as huge and meta-game changing as serene grace, volt absorb would get rid of mantine's 4x weakness and hellp him substantially. That's pretty much it! xD
Pretty much the same thing, regarding mantine and abilities, but completely different things to do with it.
Serene grace
Mantine could be an absolute dick with serene grace. Using the common serene air slash that togekiss runs in UU, but then also having mantine using scald would mean that as a special wall it would wall a bunch of NU, and then with 60% to burn all physical switch-ins or slower physical pokemon mantine would shoot right up in usage and worth in NU. Know what else would shoot up though? Faster electric types, such as electabuzz or rotom-fan. Electric types would end up something compulsory on any good team, and as such ground types would also shoot up, and as such hidden power ice/grass would become more compulsory on electric types etc. etc. The impact one ability change would have on the metagame would keep evolving for a while.
Volt absorb:
While not as huge and meta-game changing as serene grace, volt absorb would get rid of mantine's 4x weakness and hellp him substantially. That's pretty much it! xD
Honestly, I think both abilities would be amazing for Mantine. Serene Grace completely cripples attackers switching in to Mantine that aren't Guts abusers (Gurdurr would become more popular for sure, but lol Raticate), but Guts abusing Fighting-Types can be played around with a SE Air Slash with a huge 70% chance to flinch. It would be good, but I would end up using Volt Absorb very often as well. With it, Mantine doesn't have any notable weaknesses on the special side, which is where it's meant to take hits, so it can do some major work by spreading burns and toxic, while keeping himself healthy with Rest. A great partner to Volt Absorb Mantine would be Standard Defensive Torterra. Between Mantine's titanic Special Defense and Torterra's great physical defense, as well as covering each other's weaknesses perfectly, they would be a formidable core that no longer has the need to run a 3rd mon to absorb strong attacks from Special Electric-Types.
they would both be amazing buffs to Mantine, and I would welcome them both.
they would both be amazing buffs to Mantine, and I would welcome them both.
Yeah, the idea to use QuiverPass Masquerain was Dell's, and I have been using his team. A few of the potential partners are Jynx, Electabuzz, and in a pinch, offensive Probopass. It's been really good so far, and I feel like Butterfree would be even better.
Also, I wouldn't call Baton Pass a newb strategy. The main reason why I'm alright with Baton Pass is that a lot of the best passers have mediocre stats. If Butterfree got it, there would be no exception there. Having said that, Baton Pass allows a lot of otherwise poor mons to be utilized to their full potential. On top of that, Quiver Pass is incredibly potent strategy. With the amount of support it often takes to pull off, it can hardly be considered an easy strategy in my honest opinion. Anyways, if Butterfree did get Baton Pass, it was be difficult to handle. People would stop making fun of me for running Lum Berry Golem tho! :o
Also, I wouldn't call Baton Pass a newb strategy. The main reason why I'm alright with Baton Pass is that a lot of the best passers have mediocre stats. If Butterfree got it, there would be no exception there. Having said that, Baton Pass allows a lot of otherwise poor mons to be utilized to their full potential. On top of that, Quiver Pass is incredibly potent strategy. With the amount of support it often takes to pull off, it can hardly be considered an easy strategy in my honest opinion. Anyways, if Butterfree did get Baton Pass, it was be difficult to handle. People would stop making fun of me for running Lum Berry Golem tho! :o
Thanks for answering the questions, Treecko57. However, I just would like to contend to your response about Adaptability Swanna, as it seems to me that you are somewhat underestimating its ability to break through special walls.
252 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Swanna Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lickilicky (+SpDef) : 45.75% - 53.77% (2-3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Swanna Hurricane vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Regice: 39.01% - 46.15% (3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Swanna Hurricane vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Articuno: 66.67% - 78.5% (2 hits to KO)
These Pokemon (and several other relevant mentions) cannot reliably withstand towards checking Swanna when Stealth Rock is activated, as Regice, being the most specially bulky of the three, has a good chance to be 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock damage.
Also, I don't really like the suggestion of QuiverPass Bufferfree based upon Zebraiken's metaphor, as not only is Sleep Powder+QuiverPass a strategy that I wouldn't call "NU material" (why else isn't Venemoth in the tier, for example) it just seems like a deliberate attempt to completely outclass something (because then why in the world would you be using Masquerain in that case when Sleep Powder+QuiverPass is just way too good?). So yeah, just keep that in mind.
I still think that its SubRoost set will be the better set in the metagame as it tends to force switches awfully often and makes it easier for Swanna to deal with revenge killers like Rotom-S (keep in mind that they are all OHKO'd by Surf after rocks and take a ton from even Hurricune, meaning that they can't switch in), but aside from that I would say this statement is either false or irrelevant in the current state of the metagame (most good players will likely not be running Max Specially Defensive Munchlax, or they risk losing to Psyshock Jynx). Going SubRoost makes it easier for Swanna to luck its way out of special walls within confusion hax Hurricanes. Regarding the power of Swanna's Adaptability boosted Hurricanes, here is the data that we have here:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Swanna Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lickilicky (+SpDef) : 45.75% - 53.77% (2-3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Swanna Hurricane vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Regice: 39.01% - 46.15% (3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Life Orb Adaptability Swanna Hurricane vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Articuno: 66.67% - 78.5% (2 hits to KO)
These Pokemon (and several other relevant mentions) cannot reliably withstand towards checking Swanna when Stealth Rock is activated, as Regice, being the most specially bulky of the three, has a good chance to be 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock damage.
Also, I don't really like the suggestion of QuiverPass Bufferfree based upon Zebraiken's metaphor, as not only is Sleep Powder+QuiverPass a strategy that I wouldn't call "NU material" (why else isn't Venemoth in the tier, for example) it just seems like a deliberate attempt to completely outclass something (because then why in the world would you be using Masquerain in that case when Sleep Powder+QuiverPass is just way too good?). So yeah, just keep that in mind.
Yeah, Lum Golem would be the easiest fix against Butterfree's QuiverPass shenanigans. Even if it decides to not Sleep Powder on the first turn and go for Sub, you can destroy the sub and do major damage with the minimum 2 hits from max Attack Rock Blast.
252+ Atk Golem Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Butterfree: 576-684 (220.68 - 262.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A single hit from Rock Blast is an easy OHKO, from the looks of it, so Butterfree's only option is to switch out. And even then, Golem can just set up Stealth Rocks on the switch and make sure Butterfree is complete dead weight for the majority of the match.
So yeah, QuiverPass Butterfree has the potential to be successful, but it would need major work and support, similar to other BP teams in NU and any tier in general, which is why i disagree with it being considered a n00bish strategy. It get shut down so easily, so it takes a special kind of player to pull it off consistently.
EDIT: I just saw the Swanna post asking for more discussion, so I'm gonna go ahead and supply some as much as I can, with my limited experience with the bird.
Okay, so I've barely used Swanna in NU. Like, ever. I've heard a lot about how good she could be in NU, but I always thought she would be better in permanent weather instead of being a self weather sweeper, which is why I've used it in Doubles and OU on a few occasions. But I can't deny how powerful she is in the rain. She has some decent bulk (well, not really, but yaknow :>) great speed, and two fantastic STABs that hit everything for at least Neutral damage (I think... does Ground resist Flying? if so, Seismitoad actually resists her STABs. I'm pretty tired today, so bear with me :P). But yeah, I've used some amazing sets in OU such as HydroRest + 3 Attacks, Sub+HydroRest, and even Specs. But in NU, I can see her best set being her Rain Dance + Sub with her two STAB options, since Seismitoad can be covered pretty easily by a teammate (yet again I suggest Torterra! I love that mon, too bad Jynx kind of rapes him, so he can be a liability :/). I know she can hit hard; she would carry her weight in every match, so I never found myself disappointed in her performance or left wanting to use other weather abusers in her place.
But damn, if Swanna got Adaptibility? Holy smokes, that would be threatening. If you let that thing set up, it could very well be gg, due to Swanna's power and coverage with her STABs alone. I think it would be a welcome change that could, like I said before with Drifblim getting Hurricane) make Rain the dominant meta again just due to the sheer power of the mons that can abuse it.
252+ Atk Golem Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Butterfree: 576-684 (220.68 - 262.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A single hit from Rock Blast is an easy OHKO, from the looks of it, so Butterfree's only option is to switch out. And even then, Golem can just set up Stealth Rocks on the switch and make sure Butterfree is complete dead weight for the majority of the match.
So yeah, QuiverPass Butterfree has the potential to be successful, but it would need major work and support, similar to other BP teams in NU and any tier in general, which is why i disagree with it being considered a n00bish strategy. It get shut down so easily, so it takes a special kind of player to pull it off consistently.
EDIT: I just saw the Swanna post asking for more discussion, so I'm gonna go ahead and supply some as much as I can, with my limited experience with the bird.
Okay, so I've barely used Swanna in NU. Like, ever. I've heard a lot about how good she could be in NU, but I always thought she would be better in permanent weather instead of being a self weather sweeper, which is why I've used it in Doubles and OU on a few occasions. But I can't deny how powerful she is in the rain. She has some decent bulk (well, not really, but yaknow :>) great speed, and two fantastic STABs that hit everything for at least Neutral damage (I think... does Ground resist Flying? if so, Seismitoad actually resists her STABs. I'm pretty tired today, so bear with me :P). But yeah, I've used some amazing sets in OU such as HydroRest + 3 Attacks, Sub+HydroRest, and even Specs. But in NU, I can see her best set being her Rain Dance + Sub with her two STAB options, since Seismitoad can be covered pretty easily by a teammate (yet again I suggest Torterra! I love that mon, too bad Jynx kind of rapes him, so he can be a liability :/). I know she can hit hard; she would carry her weight in every match, so I never found myself disappointed in her performance or left wanting to use other weather abusers in her place.
But damn, if Swanna got Adaptibility? Holy smokes, that would be threatening. If you let that thing set up, it could very well be gg, due to Swanna's power and coverage with her STABs alone. I think it would be a welcome change that could, like I said before with Drifblim getting Hurricane) make Rain the dominant meta again just due to the sheer power of the mons that can abuse it.
Volt Absorb makes absolutely no sense on Mantine.
Anyway, onto Serene Grace Mantine, it would be good, but probably not as amazing as some people think. A 60% burn with Scald would be great and so would Air Slash's 60% flinch chance, but Mantine doesn't sit at a great speed tier as it is and priority is everywhere these days, so Air Slash is less useful except against probably walls and slower bulky Pokemon.
I can see a Scarf Scald set being quite annoying/deadly, but Jynx or Zebstrika would likely quickly cut it back down to size - Mantine would be better and more threatening against stall-based teams, but it wouldn't shake up the S tiers too much.
Yeah, Axa is right. We should be more sure to give a reason why the mon would have that ability, outside of the aspect of competitive battling. In my first post in this thread, I had posted, "What if Octillery got Shell Smash?". Now think about it (Shuckleking said it as well, actually.); Does Octillery have a shell to smash? No, he does not. We should make more of an effort to describe our points and keep them in flavor with the Pokemon we are giving said move/ability to.
Volt Absorb has no place on Mantine, but Serene Grace does (as far as I can tell, Serene Grace is most found on mons that have wings. Dunsparce, Togekiss, and Shaymin-S come to mind.) Therefore, I would expect everyone potentially arguing Mantine's abilities to only keep in mind celever's suggestoin of Serene Grace, or another flavorful choice that you have thought of beforehand.
Volt Absorb has no place on Mantine, but Serene Grace does (as far as I can tell, Serene Grace is most found on mons that have wings. Dunsparce, Togekiss, and Shaymin-S come to mind.) Therefore, I would expect everyone potentially arguing Mantine's abilities to only keep in mind celever's suggestoin of Serene Grace, or another flavorful choice that you have thought of beforehand.
Mantine with Serene Grace would be an absolute beast. With that fabulous speed-boosting fashion accessory, he would be the Scarfrachi or Scarfekiss of NU. He'd probably go A-rank or at least see an awful lot more usage that he is now. His Special Attack is still measly, but it would help to serve as a check to walls and some slower tanks.
I have this idea; I think it may be a little too overpowered, but what if Coil boosted Speed instead of Accuracy? It would be essentially a physical Quiver Dance, with largely the same distribution. Serperior's movepool is really sparse, but it could be somewhat effective and still manage to remain in NU. Eelektross is really too slow to take advantage of the speed without two turns to set up, and his physical movepool is... weird to say the least. Arbok is the only one that might actually be broken with the move; between Intimidate and his fair stats, he could actually be a threat. However, Arbok actually prefers the original boosts much of the time; it allows Gunk Shot to have presentable accuracy.
I have this idea; I think it may be a little too overpowered, but what if Coil boosted Speed instead of Accuracy? It would be essentially a physical Quiver Dance, with largely the same distribution. Serperior's movepool is really sparse, but it could be somewhat effective and still manage to remain in NU. Eelektross is really too slow to take advantage of the speed without two turns to set up, and his physical movepool is... weird to say the least. Arbok is the only one that might actually be broken with the move; between Intimidate and his fair stats, he could actually be a threat. However, Arbok actually prefers the original boosts much of the time; it allows Gunk Shot to have presentable accuracy.
this thread seems pretty interesting, so i think i'll post one
what if charizard got tail glow
i like picking moves/abilities based on flavor, and this one makes perfect sense. it does have a flame at the end of its tail that permanently glows lol. i know it would be tempting to use it on a sun team with solar power, but there's such a thing as overkill, and zard probably just wouldn't get a chance to set it up with solar power and stealth rock leaching his hp away to the point where any mon can knock it out in the turn it uses tail glow, or gets revenge killed by a scarfmon. the abiltiy to ohko anything (really, anything) is cool though.
nah i'd much rather use some kind of bulky charizard set with tail glow. it can afford to sacrifice life orb for leftovers and SpA evs for hp evs due to tail glows massive +3 boost. however, setting up tail glow with an offensive set will downright outclass its sunny day set since you have more power and no hp getting sapped. solar power will still be the default ability for choiced sun sets though
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Lickilicky in sun: 321-378 (75.7 - 89.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
in contast
+3 252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Lickilicky: 355-418 (83.72 - 98.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
what if charizard got tail glow
i like picking moves/abilities based on flavor, and this one makes perfect sense. it does have a flame at the end of its tail that permanently glows lol. i know it would be tempting to use it on a sun team with solar power, but there's such a thing as overkill, and zard probably just wouldn't get a chance to set it up with solar power and stealth rock leaching his hp away to the point where any mon can knock it out in the turn it uses tail glow, or gets revenge killed by a scarfmon. the abiltiy to ohko anything (really, anything) is cool though.
nah i'd much rather use some kind of bulky charizard set with tail glow. it can afford to sacrifice life orb for leftovers and SpA evs for hp evs due to tail glows massive +3 boost. however, setting up tail glow with an offensive set will downright outclass its sunny day set since you have more power and no hp getting sapped. solar power will still be the default ability for choiced sun sets though
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Lickilicky in sun: 321-378 (75.7 - 89.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
in contast
+3 252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Lickilicky: 355-418 (83.72 - 98.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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