I use this on my Hail team, and it works really well. I use it in conjuction with Spikes, rather than Toxic Spikes, and it does it's job really well.
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32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein
- Thread starter Dragontamer
- Start date
DragonTamer, I remember playing you. Your Walrein had real issues with my rain dance team. I think I out stalled you, as a matter of fact. I remember roaring your attempts of Subbing up and stalling. However, it was annoying trying to hit you.
BTW, you lost that extra 12% when I disabled hail.
gg.
BTW, you lost that extra 12% when I disabled hail.
gg.
As #5 states, weather changers really hurt my team bad. I hope that this set can motivate the metagame to start to concentrate on weather effects... but ehh...
But yes, weather teams pwn this obviously, it heavily relies on hail to get it anywhere... And my team is geared around T-Tar and not against generic weather changers.
But yes, weather teams pwn this obviously, it heavily relies on hail to get it anywhere... And my team is geared around T-Tar and not against generic weather changers.
If I had read this post and not used my CBTtar against your froslass things would have been different today...
I now see the science behind your walrein. Awesome job.
I now see the science behind your walrein. Awesome job.
In this case, so does anything with Roar/WW.
I'm not so much posting to complement the strategy, but rather to the topic. Excellent job really, you explained the strategy very well, cited facts (defense tier thing and the various calculations) to support it, and did a good job listing and analyzing every threat that stood a chance against it. More of these topics need to be done this way... Its also nice to see an "original" strategy thats actually original, and not just "OMG I GAVE McGAR DESTINY BOND!111"
That goes without saying. You don't see anybody complaining about Skarmory's lack of offense, do you?
Lol. I'd like to note that today was the first time I faced my own set. I lost... mostly because I was not expecting it. >_> As soon as the opponent's Walrein came out I knew I lost. Actually, from the other side of view it feels like there are so many opportunities that you can switch Walrein in... the only time you are protected from the Walrein switchin is practically when there is a powerful special sweep going on, or a very powerful / super-effective physical sweep going on.
I just realised, mixed/physical Octillery does counter this. Rock Blast not only is 2x (Rock > Ice) Damage, but hits through Subs.
EDIT: Of course, this isn't much of a metagame threat (yet?), but running Brave/Quiet and like Rock Blast/Surf/Ice Beam/[Energy Ball or Charge Beam] could pose a big to this set. Pity I am probably the only person to use Octy :(
EDIT: Of course, this isn't much of a metagame threat (yet?), but running Brave/Quiet and like Rock Blast/Surf/Ice Beam/[Energy Ball or Charge Beam] could pose a big to this set. Pity I am probably the only person to use Octy :(
Skarmory has no plans of attempting to sit in front of your opponent for fifty turns in a row, either.
Though I don't know very many people who run Rock Blast on Octy. Octy tends to benefit more from its diverse special side. Its main physical options are only Rock Blast, Waterfall and Gunk Shot and its offenses aren't nearly high enough to run a true mixed set.
Back on Walrein I always rather liked using it now and again due to the sheer bulkiness of it but its dual ice typing always hurt it way too much defensively. It had surprisingly good physical options to boot.
Leech Seed on Abomasnow can always be used to further reinforce Walrein's healing abilities however.
Well, Abamasnow can use Sub+Seed to keep it alive. If Blissey tries to wall it, Leech Seed will restore more than 25% of it's health IIRC, which means you can stall it out and hit it with a STAB Blizzard when it Softboils. If Tyranitar/Hippowdon come in to change the whether, hit them with a super powerful Grass Knot.
Abamasnow @ Leftovers
(Timid/Modest)
6 HP/252 SP.A/252 SPD
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-Blizzard
-Grass Knot
Abamasnow @ Leftovers
(Timid/Modest)
6 HP/252 SP.A/252 SPD
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-Blizzard
-Grass Knot
I lead with Abomasnow, subseed / Focus Punch works well in select situations. Raw Blizzard beats out most Jolteon leads so while it isn't a "good" lead, it works and gets the hail going without too much trouble... and there are some lucky breaks when Abomasnow just pwns the opponent's lead.
I then switch out, if T-Tar comes in to stop the hail I kill it with some kind of T-Tar counter and only switch Abomasnow when hail is needed.
Rain Dance teams and Sunny Day teams are difficult for me to deal with obviously, because I rely on infinite hail and Abomasnow. However, both of these teams are considered gimmicks in the current metagame, and Walrein still stalls for a good 6+ turns without the hail. Don't forget, he is packing defenses higher than Weezing.
Nope. I only stall as long as necessary, IE: till all enemy sweepers are dead. When I start going up against walls, I pull out my own sweepers and finish the job. There was one smart guy who realized I couldn't do anything to his Cleric Blissey, so I more or less roared for 10+ turns till his Electivire died in the hail / Toxic. When that was done, I pulled Abomasnow who subseeded the walls. (Blissey and Cresselia were left)
Thank you. Somebody here actually supports what I said.
Perhaps I can explain what my experience is as far as counters.
DragonDance + Taunt BulkyGyara comes very close to breaking Surf Walrein with Return/Fustration. Be sure to roar it away first turn, and if it taunts switch to a BulkyGyara counter. It will more or less come down to luck. Even with 2+ Dragon Dances, Gyara only 3 hit KO without the hail. If you have a priority move that Gyarados doesn't resist (Quick Attack, Fake-out, etc. etc) you can sacrifice Walrein, dish out like 80% damage using Surf alone and then go for that (It will take a while for him to break your sub... dragon dance high enough so that he deals more damage than you recover, and then start attacking you). Blizzard Pwns Gyarados however.
T-Tar remains a near solid counter. But if Toxic Spikes are left on the field, this Walrein can certainly Sub/Protect stall him till the toxics hurt him too much. It will be difficult to get your Walrein back in when your health is low for sub/protect in a Sandstorm due to T-Tar. (You'll need to switch to Abomasnow again)
Rain Dance teams give me the most trouble, especially Swift Swim Kabutops with STAB Stone Edge. I'd imagine that any weather changer is really a solid counter.
DragonDance + Taunt BulkyGyara comes very close to breaking Surf Walrein with Return/Fustration. Be sure to roar it away first turn, and if it taunts switch to a BulkyGyara counter. It will more or less come down to luck. Even with 2+ Dragon Dances, Gyara only 3 hit KO without the hail. If you have a priority move that Gyarados doesn't resist (Quick Attack, Fake-out, etc. etc) you can sacrifice Walrein, dish out like 80% damage using Surf alone and then go for that (It will take a while for him to break your sub... dragon dance high enough so that he deals more damage than you recover, and then start attacking you). Blizzard Pwns Gyarados however.
T-Tar remains a near solid counter. But if Toxic Spikes are left on the field, this Walrein can certainly Sub/Protect stall him till the toxics hurt him too much. It will be difficult to get your Walrein back in when your health is low for sub/protect in a Sandstorm due to T-Tar. (You'll need to switch to Abomasnow again)
Rain Dance teams give me the most trouble, especially Swift Swim Kabutops with STAB Stone Edge. I'd imagine that any weather changer is really a solid counter.
How is this relevant to Walrein's offense?
Unfortunately, the most exciting warstory I have is one where Walrein is not the MVP as I'm pinned up against a Magnezone... and when Walrein does become the MVP (like in a few 6-0 stall outs that I've done), the battle is like 50+ turns long as I sit and wait for hail to take out their steel pokemon, and then wait for toxic to take everyone else out. (At which point the opponent either leaves when he only has walls left, or goes "Kill me now" and probably played sub-optimally from that point on)
More or less, everything in the warstories is what I've said here... without the 32+ turns of stalling (Remember, I am spamming surf and roar at times which extend the stalling time). I roar out Skarmories who attempt to roar me. If I hit some wall like Dusknoir who can't even break my sub, I spam Surf / Blizzard while keeping my Sub up till he leaves. As Skarm switches back in it is hit by Surf / Blizzard, which usually ends up a 3 or 2-hit KO. 3 with Surf, 2 with blizzard. Roar to prevent whirlwind/roar and continue the stall.
If a powerful sweeper comes in play (IE: GUTS heracross, Starmie), I sub/protect till they die of Toxic. Even with infinite attack, a Heracross would not break through the combo and will die to toxic.
If a powerful slow-sweeper comes into play (IE: Special Attack Magnezone), I wait for hail to kill them down. I substitute on the switch, protect on their first attack, Surf while they break the sub, and then Sub/Protect till their death.
The few Ice pokemon I do encounter I can simply roar away.
Rapid Spinners are met by Frosslass. Starmie can't take Thunderbolt, Donphan can't take Blizzard. Forretress can't take either because its Sp. Def sucks, even if he resists Blizzard its pretty much a 2-hit KO. Or if it is late enough in the game I just wait for Hail/Poison to kill them.
Donphan gives a bit of prediction trouble. Donphan has roar and can stop the cycle as well as prevent Frosslass from switching in. At the same time, he can rapid spin and set up on stealth rocks. Fortunately, he is weak to both blizzard and Surf and is slower than Walrein. If you protect on the first turn, you probably will OHKO after 2 turns of hail + toxic.
Levitate users like Mismagus and Gengar die to the hail in 16 turns. BulkyGyarados I smack several times with Surf / Blizzard till they die, roar him out on the dragon dance if I can.
When T-Tar comes in, I stall for as long as possible, surf/Blizzard on the turn he breaks my sub for good. The Toxic Spikes take effect quite quickly. I then sacrifice Porygon-Z and then send in Scarf Weavile... which no one expects for some lame reason. (maybe because... it sucks? :-p But it works for my team) I then start the hail again and switch back to Walrein asap. Or, I switch to Frosslass if I predict a Choice-Band version, and then thunder-wave or Destiny-bond depending on what I predict. If I predict a switch-out, I use thunder-wave. If I predict a stupid Choice-Band Crunch on a Destiny-bond user... I use Destiny Bond :-p
BTW: I'm starting to see "StallRein" all over now. Why? WALrein already has a perfect name for this set... but call it whatever you want >_> I'm sticking with Wallrein, or Walrein for short. I also edited this message into the first post.
Hmm... well, here is a 6-0 log where Walrein + Toxic spikes utterly pwns another player. Granted, he shouldn't have let me set-up. But he definitely did not see this coming.
If anyone wishes to see how it works, here it is. I don't think damage % are necessary to log here because no matter what the strategy is the same.
Dragontamer
vs
rycek17
The other 3 team members (Weavile, PorygonZ and Frosslass) were not seen in this battle.
Sub -> Protect -> Surf (Sub breaks) -> Protect -> Sub.
This maximizes health gains, but if you are low on PP and high on health, go ahead and skip one of the "protect" steps. I was running low on PP and high at health at this point, so I started skimping on the Protects and was mainly scouting for soft-boiled / Aromatherapy. Blissey did not have either, so eventually... (skip a few turns)
If anyone wishes to see how it works, here it is. I don't think damage % are necessary to log here because no matter what the strategy is the same.
Dragontamer
vs
rycek17
The other 3 team members (Weavile, PorygonZ and Frosslass) were not seen in this battle.
Obvious Choice here. Poison/Water Tentacruel resists everything Hitmontop throws at it, except Earthquake which is more or less protected because of Abomasnow's resistance to Earthquake.
Ah, good ol' Blissey. I got enough Sp. def to survive 3 hits from Starmie, so I'm sure I can finish the spikes job. Not to mention, I need to scout for T-Wave / Sing.
One turn of scouting should be enough. Some guys use T-Wave 2x in a row, and I can't afford to get Walrein paralyzed in case he has a phazer.
And I'm in against a blissey. That is game right there. Now for the long long long stall period...
Yeah, T-Wave was coming. Substitute blocks that.
A little explanation here. The #1 priority is to keep Walrein's Substitute up. If it is up while I roar, then even GUTS Choice Band Heracross can't do anything to me. Blissey can not break the sub with Seismic toss (104 HP subs) so a good roar is necessary.
This is why you need the substitute up. Nearly every sweeper is faster than you. So using Substitute on the turn they break the sub is how you break their strategy. I would imagine that a slow Metagross alternating between Meteor Mash and Bullet-Punch can get through... but I haven't tested it yet.
Gliscor similarly can't do anything on me, except maybe taunt. I don't think EQ breaks the sub either. Either way, it is safe to risk your sub against walls and other weak attackers because simply put... you can easily put it back up while they switch out.
I can't leave a possible baton-passer in with a swords dance. So Roar is the obvious choice.
In hindsight, this is a major error on my part. Yanmega can now use hypnosis on me, ending my streak. Fortunately, he does not. But keep in mind that using Surf impatiently here was a seriously bad idea. I should have just waited for him to die from Hail.
Substitute is back up, and I'm in business. Anyway, in a few turns... he dies to hail. Lets skip the next few turns to the part where...
He's setting up? What does he plan to do?
Unexpected Chesto-Rest Forretress... either way, he couldn't do anything anyway.
Hmm... Gliscor Earthquake does not break the sub. Good to know.
Blissey is slower, and is unable to break the sub. So the typical Sub -> Protect -> Sub cycle is now...
Sub -> Protect -> Surf (Sub breaks) -> Protect -> Sub.
This maximizes health gains, but if you are low on PP and high on health, go ahead and skip one of the "protect" steps. I was running low on PP and high at health at this point, so I started skimping on the Protects and was mainly scouting for soft-boiled / Aromatherapy. Blissey did not have either, so eventually... (skip a few turns)
Now its his last pokemon.
There are some more interesting fights that I've had, out-roaring Skarms / Swamperts, an Aromatherapy Blissey and Moon-light Cresselia that I've managed to out-stall both and then finished up with Sub-Seed Abomasnow... but I didn't save those battles. I just saved this one because it was one of my 6-0s with this set and really shows Walrein's walling capability if you are not prepared for it.