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Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Dragontamer, Aug 27, 2007.
Are you sure? I could have sworn I had a metagross absorb toxic spikes due to the immunity.
Scouting your opponent's team is a strong point in your favor if you send it out early, but Roar alone does a decent job of that without wasting half your moveset on pure stalling bullshit. The Sub/Protect crap just turns you into a pure staller which, without Spikes-SR support, is easily stalled itself just by switching every turn. Other walls typically switch out once they deter the threat. Subseeding works because it damages your opponent. Just sitting there like an annoying lump of whore, without Pressure even, is somewhat useless.
Glad to see you've realized you need Spikes support, though of the Toxic variety they are more easily countered and less useful than the others. ;( That said, stalling uselessly is just that. You could do something a bit more useful than Sub/Protect in those move slots.
It's really not useless at all if the opponent has no way to change the weather.
If they start switching, you'll have some free surfs or blizzards while they still lose 6% health each turn do to the hailstorm. Switching out does not prevent hail.
I dunno if anyone's realised but Brelloom can do the same thing with Toxic Orb.
It can stall 32 turns in hail?
No, but it can stall 32 turns. It's just an observation.
And I wouldn't count on hail killing anything since it relies on the opponent not having taunt/weather changing move/ice type poke/recovery move/roar.
IMO move EVs to HP/Sp. Def, outstall special pokemon and just Surf/Blizzard anything physical not named Metagross.
Then it can't do the same thing, how does it cause damage while it's stalling? Not to mention it get's OHKO'd by pretty much any type of flying type attack.
That's why it has a sub, and if there's a threat, it doesn't wait for hail, it just FP's lol.
Other difference between this walrein and Breloom is that the fat blue thing run a lot of HP making the sub a lot more resistant that the one Breloom could make.
This set is a very good idea and it's always a pleasure to see some player trying to create some new set. I think I may try this set in a near future, probably running Surf over Blizzard because I fear to run out of PP for the giant ice attack.
Anyway, good job DragonTeamer =)
Unlike the Walrein, Breloom will be susceptible to Taunt Gyarados and probably double-hit and triple-kick as well. It doesn't have the defenses of Walrein as well, and can't even phaze as a contingency plan. And there's no weather effect doing some 6% damage each turn.
Without hail/sandstorm, this kind of stalling is pointless.
Finally got a chance to play this set last night against someone (not sure who, but I don't think it was DT) and I gotta say it's quite beastly if you're not expecting it.
Sadly, after it outstalled two or three of my Pokemon it finally died to a critical hit Nightslash and the player dropped on me. =\
Definitely want to play more of this set, I like it a lot.
I gotta ask - how long DOES Hail last from Abomasnow? I was facing a few hail teams earlier today on Shoddy, and their hail seemed to last a ridiculously long time.
I wonder, because I wanna try and see if I can't do something with this along with spikes/S.R, perhaps with something crazy like S.R. and hail on WG Clefable... :naughty:
Hail doesn't preclude the fact that you still don't deal any damage; more often than not, it's only nullifying Leftovers. Switching between Blissey and, well, something else is an option most teams have. It's easy to hit the Softboiled button (or whatever's opposite of Blissey, whatever it may be) and recover the piddling damage you do. Wish support is also possible. Getting into "omg Toxic/Spikes/SR," "omg Weavile killed Starmie already," and other stuff like that only precludes the idea that pokémon is a team game; your opponent also has a team and they're not going to willingly let you do whatever you want.
And just as a suggestion to the original moveset, use Surf. Being a stalling whore, you don't want your only attack to be 8 PP. It also hits Steels for Dragontamer's Toxic Spiking purposes and hits Hippo/T-Tar 2x with perfect accuracy.
But giving up STAB Ice? :sadpanda: I guess it's not such a big deal on comedy Hail teams.
Weather that results from an ability lasts until the weather is changed with a move or another Pokemon's ability. In short, it can last forever.
When you finally get the full battery of tests done on this thing, be sure to factor in stealth rock for the switch-ins, which is a damper on his survivability. Still an amazing idea (hell to actually play with though probably comparable to Bliss/Cress 1v1)
This set doesn't seem like it can do anything. It does jack shit to Starmie, who will Rapid Spin your shit and Blissey can waste its time endlessly. If you go without an attack, I can even Whirlwind you out with Skarmory and you'll take a lot more damage from SR coming back in than I will, for sure... not to mention Tyranitar and Hippowdon being everywhere to remove the Hail, and Jirachi isn't exactly UU either... so by default you have Abomasnow and some sort of Spiker, and the rest of your team is most likely not going to get anything from Hail unlike Sandstorm.
What a lot of setup for hardly any results.
edit: This reminds me of the Calm Mind/Surf/Roar/Rest Suicune with Spikes setup in ADV, who actually was quite the killer on a stall oriented team. The difference being is that it could setup to sweep while it was wasting time...
From the one battle I've had, it looks like if you're switching Walrein in the damage from stealth rock will be negated at the end of the turn thanks to the hail absorb and leftovers.
With that said you also have to consider Walrein most likely won't be coming in on something that can hit it super effective, so he'll be losing most likely 35-50% health tops, which it'll probably regain in like 2 turns (the switch in, and then the following turn with Protect).
Anyways, this is my observation from just one battle so I'm sure there needs to be more comprehensive play done with this set before there can be any conclusive opinion as to whether Stealth Rock really hampers it's use or not.
I'm pretty much curious about what you do against pokes who resist hail, blizzard & surf ? i think toxic would be a good choice.
Starmie does jack shit to this set and so does Blissey. Roar them out and stall someone else. With roar, you stall the guys you want to stall. Even without spikes/stealth rock, the hailstorm will eventually get to them.
I will roar you out before Skarm whirlwinds me unless you are packing speed EVs. This was addressed in the first post. Skarm doesn't take Surf/Blizzard so kindly either.
You underestimate 100% accurate Blizzard. Just spam the darn move over and over. Great on choice scarf/specs pokemon.
Roar them out, or stall if you got the toxic spikes rolling.
EDIT: and before anyone says it, I've been playtesting this thing for a few days already. It isn't just a theory, I've used it, and it works. Ask Del337ed if you don't believe me. I'm not saying that this thing is godly, I'm simply stating that it gets the job done.
Except for the fact they'll switch them right back in until you run out of Roar PP. I fail to see how this can do anything other than sit around pointlessly, especially after using it on Shoddy. It's just so EASY to outstall this thing. It doesn't matter that they can't harm you-they send in their special wall (Blissey) and wall you endlessly.
You've just delt 6% damage to someone else due to hail. Roar again, and chances are their other pokemon are also going to get hit. Wishpassing will hurt this strategy.
Roar has 32 PP. You still get the 32 turns of stall, while seeing their whole team. Stealth Rocks / Spikes helps a lot, though some form of toxic support helps the most IMO.
With Toxic Spikes + This set, I've managed to toxic-stall entire teams. With some other form of spikes, it is very easy to phaze and spike-shuffle the opponent's team.
I should mention that I do have a ghost pokemon named Frosslass who can prevent rapidspin (Scout with protect first). Starmie does not like Thunderbolt, and Donphan does not like Blizzard. Tentacruel resists Hitmontop and can lay down more spikes and is not weak to grass due to its part poison. After their spinner is dead, continue the toxic stall + hail stall to the win.
EDIT: I don't recall double-posting... I swear I posted in reply to someone...
Just as a note, Double-Layered Toxic Spikes can't be absorbed. They need to be rapid-spun. It also means almost nothing can out-stall you besides stuff like Restwhoring Rain Dance Manaphy or Cleric Blissey (hi roar), because Toxic gets to what, 93.5% HP per turn IIRC? (OHKO with Hail) This works intensely well if you can somehow KO their spinner, too; Just set TS back up and go for the final kill.
Best use is with a Dugtrio. Switch in on the Spin and OHKO, and later you can switch him in on something else to at least temporarily stop something from switching to kill the Toxic pain. And finally, Dugtrio works as a perfect revenge killer for most anything with Guts, meaning you just need to sacrifice something to get him in and then stop their sweep dead.
As for the people saying "lol poison heal Breloom", you've forgotten
-immensely less hp/defenses
-can't do it 'identically' without lefties, which means it needs to switch in on toxic or something, which is tough to set up
-It's got better things to do.
I REALLY like this set, but I say that about a lot of fresh and unique sets.
As a side-note, Choice Scarf Weavile is the suck. Use Band or Expert Belt, because it barely needs the extra speed, but with its low attack BP it certainly needs the damage boost.