ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

This thread can be used to address any issues with the game or suggested changes to mechanics or moves. It largely replaces the discussion section of the State of the Game system, and can be posted in by all players.

Rules:

1. Be respectful. Posts that are found insulting, demeaning, or otherwise fail to contribute to a respectful dialog will be deleted. Repeat offenders WILL be infracted.
2. Keep it on topic. Please try to refrain from bringing up a new topic until the previous topic has been addressed and a result reached.
3. Before bringing up an issue, please look through the rest of the thread to make sure that your suggestion hasn't been made earlier or your issue has not already been addressed.

Have at it!

IAR EDIT: ASB Council Constitution. Whee!

The aim of the Anime Style Battling Council is to rationally, quickly and efficiently judge and implement proposed for ASB by the larger ASB Community. It aims to build upon, not revert, the existing spirit of ASB by approving proposals that strengthens the mechanics of the game. The ASB Council recognises that changes are made only to fix an existing flaw in existing mechanics, or to make incremental improvements by way of small inclusions.

CHAPTER I: Selecting the Council

1. All council members are selected by a vote by the eligible ASB community, and
   1. The eligible ASB community is defined as the users who have had no less than one month experience in ASB.
   2. The vote is private, and will be sent to a standing member on the council via PM.
   3. This voting will take place every six months, which will be the term of a council, and there are no restrictions on any user serving on consecutive councils.
   4. The seven people who have achieved the most amount of votes from the community will be selected to be seated on the council.
2. There will be seven council members elected, and
   1. They may step down voluntarily at any point during their term.
   2. If at any time there are less than seven active users in the council, the council will decide among themselves via a vote who the replacement user will be, and the decision will be carried out in an efficient and timely manner.
3. Council members have a moderated but public social group that consists of the seven council members.
4. At any time, a member of the council may call a vote of no confidence (or of inactivity) regarding a fellow council member, and the active members of the council will engage a private vote regarding the member’s involvement in the council, and if only if there are no votes cast for keeping the council member, that user is ejected from the council. The period of inactivity must be a minimum of 2 weeks without doing anything ASB related.

CHAPTER II: System Changes

1. If a proposed change to the ASB system gains considerable support, be it on IRC or the Feedback thread, the council may make a decision on its implementation, under the following guidelines:
   1. The proposal must be at least a week old before the council begins council discussion and voting on the proposal, so as to give all users a chance to respond to the proposal.
   2. After the time has passed and the community response to the proposed change is still positive, the council may begin private discussion and voting process.
   3. If the vote passes, the change is considered implemented in any way the council decrees, so long as there is no veto present from a relevant power.
2. Proposals that lie within the council’s control include changes to specific moves, abilities, items, minor changes to game mechanics, and any major change to the game’s mechanics must also obtain a public approval from Deck Knight, such major proposals including but not limited to,
   1. Changes to how damage is calculated, or to the concept of the battle system as a whole.
   2. Inclusion of a mechanic that lies outside of the existing spirit and rule-set of ASB.
3. In cases where a motion has been passed for a decision that directly alters or amends powers given to the ASB Council, that is to say anything not initially agreed upon as to their role and power, a decision towards the motion regarding the powers granted to the ASB Council must be dictated by Deck Knight, the only authority greater than the ASB Council and thus outside the conflict of interest.
4. Voting takes place through the following process:
   1. Satisfying guidelines for a proposal, a member of the council creates two new threads in the Council Social Group (ASB council plans) for the proposal, one titled DISCUSSION and the other VOTING, outlining the proposal in the Original Post of both threads, in the Council Social Group.
   2. The council may discuss among themselves on IRC (#ASBCouncil) or on the discussion thread in the Council Social Group, at all times taking into account feedback from non-Council members.
   3. The council will in due time publicly vote in the voting thread created for that proposal.
   4. If the proposed change receives a majority vote from the council, it is considered implemented and the change announced in all relevant areas.

CHAPTER III: Regarding Other Entities

1. The Gym committee and the Roleplay committee hold complete sovereignty from the ASB Council; however, if either committee is overly inactive or otherwise incompetent, the council may take any actions deemed necessary to expedite the duties of the committee, be it through selecting replacements or by taking charge of the committee entirely.
2. Deck Knight holds ultimate veto power over any action that the Council takes, and continues to operate as Word of God.

DOUBLE IAR EDIT: Hooray for new proposal handling systems...

Proposal for how proposals are done (amended):

Feedback thread is redone. A proposal is posted, and rather than debate the proposal in the thread people quote the post and say either "I support this proposal and wish to move this to a discussion", or "I disagree with this proposal and wish to move it to discussion". Alternatively, a person can respond with "I agree with this proposal but do not believe this proposal should go to discussion" or "I disagree with this proposal and believe it should not be slated for discussion". The first five votes will be counted.

If in the five votes on a proposal, at least two say to not move to debate, the council members can amongst themselves through private chats/IRC take any option:

• Instantly vote to implement the proposal
• Move proposal to discussion
• Ignore the proposal entirely

If fewer than two of the first five votes say to not move to debate, the council will default to moving the proposal to discussion. Whichever course of action the council decides on will be posted in the feedback thread.

Assumming a proposal garners the required support to discuss, a discussion is then opened. Discussion will last until such time that the discussion has either become inactive or gotten out of hand (at the discretion of the council). Once this point has been reached, council members will hold a public vote, using single vote for polls with 2 options and IRV for polls with more than 2 options. The options shall consist of the current system (ie, no change), the original proposal and any amended proposals with decent support. If, after all council members have voted, the vote is tied or otherwise in deadlock, Deck Knight reserves the right to cast a tiebreaking vote. If this still results in a tie in a poll that uses IRV, there will be another vote between the remaining options in that poll.

In the event that a proposal does not get five votes on it within 25 posts of its inception, the proposal may be bumped by making a post containing a link to the proposal and additional links to all votes cast on the proposal with the stances being mentioned in the post. This process may be repeated as necessary every 25 posts after each bump; however, if a proposal ends up with four votes on it twice in a row, the council may make a decision to veto, discuss or implement the proposal based on the votes so far.

Current Council Members:
Dogfish44
Elevator_Music
Engineer Pikachu
Its_A_Random
Objection
Texas Cloverleaf
zarator

Roleplay Committee:
Alchemator
Engineer Pikachu
zarator

Gym Committee:
Glacier Knight
MK Ultra
Texas Cloverleaf

[Dogfish44]

This is a repost from the SoTG which garnered a decent amount of support, but never got acted upon:

OK, the actual Chance Substitution rules have apparently been completely ignored in reffings for quite a while (A large portion of people have only found this out through an IRC debate today). I'm actually gonna post a suggestion to add to the Data Audit thread in lieu of the current rules, and use the popular method:

"Chance Substitution: A substitution based upon an event where it is uncertain that the event will occur. They can either change the action during which the event occurred, or an action after the event.
If used during the action during which an event occurs, the event must occur before the action. In addition, the Priority of the substitution action must be the same as the priority of the action that is now being replaced. If a move has multiple stages, the first priority stage is used."

This enables subbing for paralysis occurring or burns occurring in the action which a response is wanted - which is actually illegal.

.

Current Rules, for reference

---

Chance Substitution:

For each of their Pokemon, either player may create a substitution based on the success or failure of a previously ordered Attack or Attack effect. This conditional can only be triggered by the success or failure of a previous action, and as such cannot be applied to the first action of a round. A Player acting first can make either an Attack Substitution or a Chance Substitution, but not both - unless against a foe that has met the requirements for two substitutions.

[Objection]

There are some moves that require an external water source, such as Surf, and there are some moves that require external grass if the user isn't Grass-type, like Grass Knot. But what about moves that require external rocks? Rock Slide stands out as one such move. Others might include Rock Throw and Rock Tomb. Some like Rock Blast and maybe Stone Edge might only require external rocks if the user is not Rock-type. Obviously some like Rollout and Head Smash would never need external rocks.

This is something that merits consideration for when people come up with arenas that are decidedly not natural.

[Arcanite]

Also in the same way the trade evolution items are useful as hold items, what about evolution stones (Fire ston, Dawn Stone etc.)

And that's my 1k!

Thanks to aqualta, for being the best irl friend
Son_of_Shadoo, raid partner, Rival and Ref Tutor
Deck Knight, for creating ASB
Everyone Playing ASB!

1k challenge coming soon!

[Terrador]

@ Arcanite, those are implemented in TLR as drops, which allow one to evolve a Pokemon that evolves using said Stone instantly; they can be sold for a set (may vary for each stone; don't have TLR data) amount of CC.

[Gerard]

Something that was brough last SotG but didn't gained a lot of disscution, why do "Illegal actions need to be reissued"?, It's a bit weird (and sometimes unfair) to reissue actions if you've send yours (at least you just gave your opponent a good idea of what you're about to do), and it's just a partial answer, why is using recovery while taunted grounds to reissue but targeting the wrong target or spelling a sub wrongly or using a bad combo completely OK, they're all mistakes and should be just seen as such, they help you learn, you could use the "don't ref illegal actions" in a match that's important or a begginer one (like df proposed) or even in the arena rules

[Rediamond]

The big issue that many users have wanted to discuss on irc, and that earned a healthy amount of debate in the SotG is hazards and Rapid Spin. During the RD era, Rapid Spin was nerfed into a fairly useless move, as the spinner now must take damage from the hazards they spin away when they use the move. This means that it is often incredibly punishing to spin, as with many layers it can cost up to 30 HP to do so, and with a few layers the opponent can simply set them back up. Furthermore, hazards often dominate longer matches as there are literally only three ways to get rid of spikes and stealth rock, one of which is unique to a single line. While it is possible to taunt a user of employ Magic Coat to keep rocks off of the field, it is very easy for an experienced player to position their hazard setter against a Pokemon that doesn't have these moves, and set up hazards that do 12+ damage against every Pokemon to switch in for the rest of the game.

The most obvious way to balance out hazards would be to make Rapid Spin usable; read, get rid of the clause about taking damage from the hazards the move gets rid of. However, this only adds about a dozen Pokemon, most of whom see almost no use, counters to Rocks and Spikes, so many users have proposed further changes.

The list proposed on irc included:

1) Giving hazards a limited number of times it could damage a Pokemon before they dissapear
2) Increase the energy cost
3) Allow for certain low-power moves with decent distribution (Rock Smash, Bulldoze, Sludge Wave) to remove a certain type of hazard, possibly at increased energy cost or at the expense of taking damage from the hazard being cleared.
4) Allow for combinations involving wind attacks to clear away some/all hazards like defog.

I personally have yet to finalize an opinion, but I see the merits behind the above four solutions. Many would agree that hazards are a problem as they currently stand. Therefore, some of the above proposals and others may want to be looked into.

[Terrador]

I'd like to note that the biggest problem with entry hazards, as they are now, is that there's a very narrow set of situations in which hazards are effective, but not ridiculously game-breaking. Furthermore, Rapid Spin needs buffing regardless; if a (n essentially suppoting) move's greatest purpose isn't worthwhile, that's pretty ridiculous imho.

[Deck Knight]

Some of this needs fixing, yes.

RE: Rapid Spin

Effectively taking the hazard damage twice is overkill. That said, in ASB you generally have more chances to set up hazards (but only in long battles, hazards are impractical in anything less than 3v3 singles and 4v4 doubles, save switch = OK battles, or tourney matches where that damage offers a strategic advantage later)

I think a reinterpretation of the attack will serve well for the actual physics involved. I also thing getting damaged by hazards should either be limited or abolished. The Pokemon in question here aren't that gamebreaking, the strongest is probably Excadrill. And perhaps since the effect is fairly strong, increase the energy cost to compensate. I'll increase it to 6, so it can't be used after a Hyper Beam (since it does damage). This makes it very inefficient as a damaging move, but not enough to deter its use to break Leech Seed, Bind, etc.

Rapid Spin: The Pokemon spins extremely quickly in place, generating a ring of energy around the Pokemon, enough to give it mobility even if bound down. The Pokemon then charges into the opponent, and if the ring makes contacts it expands across the field and frees the Pokemon from any binding move and Leech Seed, as well as clearing any Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock that are on its side of the arena.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

[Dogfish44]

Clarification on combos and ordering:

When a combo is used, it is commonplace to add an action after the combo instead of just saying "Cooldown", to account for any various form of hax (I am not sure if this requires a Substitute action to use or not ofc). However, it can look odd for anyone relatively new, so I'm making a small suggestion on how to format this.

This would turn:

Fire Blast + Flamethrower ~ Flamethrower ~ Fire Blast (Which may appear confusing)

Into:

Fire Blast + Flamethrower ~ Cooldown (Flamethrower) ~ Fire Blast

Which is easier to read, and will be codified, making misinterpretation harder (Hard to tell whether it should be Flamethrower or Fire Blast on action 3 for the current method).

[Objection]

Speaking of combos, consider this situation: in a singles match, a Charizard uses the Fire Blast + Flamethrower combo on action 1 of a round and KOs its opponent, a Venusaur. Charizard can then act on action 1 of the following round without needing to cool down. As well as this not making logical sense (as the time gap between the last action of one round and the first action of the next is no greater than the time gap between two consecutive actions in the same round), it also allows combos to be exploited and used as nothing but high-power, virtually-no-drawback moves in the right circumstances, which are surprisingly not uncommon.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Dogfish44

Clarification on combos and ordering:

When a combo is used, it is commonplace to add an action after the combo instead of just saying "Cooldown", to account for any various form of hax (I am not sure if this requires a Substitute action to use or not ofc). However, it can look odd for anyone relatively new, so I'm making a small suggestion on how to format this.

This would turn:

Fire Blast + Flamethrower ~ Flamethrower ~ Fire Blast (Which may appear confusing)

Into:

Fire Blast + Flamethrower ~ Cooldown (Flamethrower) ~ Fire Blast

Which is easier to read, and will be codified, making misinterpretation harder (Hard to tell whether it should be Flamethrower or Fire Blast on action 3 for the current method).

I've always split my substitutions into separate lines using an IF -> THEN statement. Makes it much clearer, and easier in 2 Subs matches.

RE: Combo KO's on Action 1 in Singles: You'd do the cooldown on the first action of round 2 (Round 1 would terminate with all end of action effects like Poison, stat-drops if beyond 2/4 actions, etc.)

[SimonSays]

@ 1 Action KO's: Does this apply to Action 2, as well? Say I used:

Chill ~ Fire Blast + Flamethrower ~ Cooldown/Flamethrower

which lead to a KO, would I have to cooldown A1 of the next round as well? Just for clarity.

[Son_of_Shadoo]

Of course, that's only logical.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

There a few attacks that seem to be to weak to be very useful. I think, therefore, they should be buffed somehow. I am especially thinking of Ally Switch, Both Conversions, Explosion/Self-Destruct, Grudge, Lucky Chant, Present, and Snore. It would be nice if these moves could be made powerful enough to become at least slightly useful.

[waterwarrior]

I'd just like to give my input on Yarnus' suggestion:
Ally Switch- I mean, I guess it can be a sort of evasive action, but it would have to have an incredibly increased energy cost...
Conversion 1/2- I don't see how this can be buffed, to be completely honest, but if you can come up with something...
Explosion/Self-Destruct- 25 BP is already ridiculously high...
Grudge- Honestly, its already been buffed from its in-game version. Why buff it more?
Lucky Chant- I'll admit the pink tentacles thing is really, REALLY weird, but I see no reason to buff it
Present- I mean, its an awful move to begin with, and just... why bother?
Snore- Sleep lasts for 2 turns MAX, and almost everything from gens 1-4 learn Sleep Talk. Who would use it, even if it was buffed?

[Leethoof]

I see only problems with...um...none of those, necessarily.

Ally Switch is extremely useful in triples and doubles. For 4 EN, you can bail your Alakazam out of a ton of incoming attacks (remember, it works as it does in-game, so moves targeted against Zam will instead hit whoever switched into his place). It's essentially an improved version of take cover!
Conversions both have useful niches, can make porygon crush fighting types, give it more relevant STABs against its opponent, etc.
Explosion/Self-Destruct Meant as a final blow, not as an instant-kill gimmick like in-game.
Grudge is actually kind of nice. Permanently Disabling that one major STAB move that a mon depends on, or removing a coverage move that hurts your team, is a very nice effect from a mon that was going to die anyways.
Lucky Chant is another niche move against Super Luck mons and whatnot. Niche moves aren't weak.
Present and Snore are intended to be gimmicks.

[Temperantia]

Lucky Chant- I'll admit the pink tentacles thing is really, REALLY weird, but I see no reason to buff it

Actually compelled me to read the description of the move. That is so odd, it's almost not hilarious.

[Gerard]

To be honest Grudge could be better if it disabled all the moves used on the round that pokemon KOed yours but other than that I don't see it having a huge effect, the same as Memento, they're not relly meant to be so good (you could make a combo with Grudge and Memento to do something but that's as far as I see it to be Honest)

Also, can we boost Trace a little bit, it's not really worth it right now that you have to use an action to get an ability (not even a good one sometimes (at least for you)), and then you might even have to spend another turn to activate it depending of the ability (and then you only have it for 5 more actions), making usable-but-not-worth-losing-a-turn-for abilities like Intimidate or Shell Armor or Steadfast into something just not worth the effort

Originally Posted by Fat Data Audit Tread

Trace:

Type: Can be Activated

This Pokemon can copy an ability of the opponent and replace Trace for six (6) actions. Wonder Guard cannot be Traced.

Command: (Ability: Trace (Target Ability) )

to

Originally Posted by Fat New Trace

Trace:

Type: Can be Activated

When this Pokemon initially goes out into the battlefield, it can copy an ability of the opponent and replace Trace for six (6) actions. Trace can be activated again to refresh the ability or to copy another one, but it will take an action. Wonder Guard cannot be Traced.

Command: (Ability: Trace (Target Ability) )

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I understand most of those now, but Conversion is still a little too random to be useful.
I also had no idea Ally Switch did what you described. Maybe it should be clarified a little.

Also, this could be a misconception, but it seems you (Leethoof) have some sort of grudge against me (yeaaaaahhh!). I want to apologize for whatever I did in our first battle that you didn't like.

[Flamestrike]

I'd like to bring up substitutions for discussion. Right now, a lot of people stretch the substitution rules to (and in some cases arguably past) their limits using clauses. For example, something like this:
IF he uses X A1, then:
-IF he uses Y A2 use Z A2
-ELSE use N A2
Supposedly this is legal because it's only based on one move, and just two different clauses based on that move. However, it could just as easily be rewritten as such:
-If he uses X A1 and Y A2 use Z A2
-If he uses X A1 and doesn't use Y A2 use N A2
That is pretty clearly an extra sub. So which is right? How many "clauses" can you get away with? Some? Many? None? Can clauses reference later moves or just the status of the match and Pokemon? For that matter, can a sub even reference an action that comes after the action that would potentially be replaced, ie does the Pokemon have advance knowledge of what the opponent will order and is he able to change his actions in advance accordingly? Also, note in that second half, that it's said "doesn't use Y", which on it's own is completely illegal IIRC. Should that be legal as a clause?

Just some food for thought.

[Gerard]

To be fair a pokemon has some sort of "future knowledge" when using protect or magic coat to protect themselves or counter, mirror coat or even bide to retaliate, or more obviously when you use something one action before he can (disable, double team, substitute come to mind as in IF he uses X attack A2 then use Double Team A1), since they're not going into their normal time bracket in order to do (or prevent) something, but I completely agree a number of clauses should be set

[Pwnemon]

I think a one-clause rule would work well, in this case. Why? Because if two clauses can be rewritten as two subs, well then, it stands to reason that one clause can be rewritten as one sub

but i agree, we really don't want twelve-sub syndrome like we had here

EDIT: not calling you out personally Athenodoros, this was just one of the worst cases of toomuchsub i've seen

[Deck Knight]

A few things:

Athenodoros' Sub was a freakin' essay. Two subs means two subs, not an essay of OTHERWISE, yeesh. It was really only the last one that was a problem, the rest of them were pretty standard.

On attacks:

Ally Switch is fine, but I should clarify its for one action only.

I made most of the random moves a selection from a limited attack set, I will do the same with Conversion 1/2 but with types.

Grudge affects categories in its present interpretation, so it's already fairly powerful, and one of the few effects that can't be removed by switching out.

Lucky Chant is pretty good against Super Luck mons and Pokemon that can use Focus Energy combos or other always CHing combos. Very helpful if the mon has screens up as well.

Snore is tough to buff. What I might do to make it unique is allow it to be used in certain combinations, which a) gives it a leg up over Sleep Talk, which is random and thus can't be comboed, and b) make it so the pokemon with the combinable moves (I'm thinking stuff like Hyper Voice, Supersonic, and Sonicboom) get a cool toy.

Present is almost impossible to work with. I basically ripped its effect from in-game.

I'll have updates with any changes shortly.

Updates:

Originally Posted by Fat Conversion

Conversion: The user changes its typing to the same type as a random of 4 selected known moves (if the user has less than 4 different move types, it selects from the choices available. Hidden Power is considered a Normal type attack). The selected types must be different from the user's current type. This effect lasts until Conversion or Conversion 2 is used or the user switches out.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Originally Posted by Fat Conversion2

Conversion 2: The user changes its typing to a random type that resists or is immune to the last attack it was hit with. This effect lasts until Conversion or Conversion 2 is used or the user switches out.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Originally Posted by Fat Snore

Snore: The sleeping Pokemon snores loud enough to cause mild internal damage to the listening opponent. The harsh noise may cause the listener to flinch, losing an attack turn. Snore can be combined with Chatter, Echoed Voice, Hyper Voice, Metal Sound, Round, Screech, Snarl, Supersonic, and Uproar. When combined, the combination has 100% Accuracy and the BAP of Snore is doubled (x2). The Pokemon will remain asleep through the Cooldown of the combination, even if it would be awakened by damage.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: 30% | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Analysis: Basically Conversion now lets you select out of 4 (Poygon starts with 4 attack types in its Up to 25 Movepool, Normal, Electric, Psychic, and Bug) different types on moves you possess. Both are now durable throughout the battle until used again or a switch.

Snore has been buffed to double its own BAP in a combo (from 4 to 8, usually. If the mon is under the Nightmare status, it goes from 8 to 16.), and it defers to the typing of the combined move (So Chatter would be Flying, Metal Sound would be Steel, Snarl would be Dark, and the rest remain Normal typed), as well as giving it 100% Acc (note, this is not -- Acc.), meaning Snore + Supersonic has 8 BAP and always Confuses. The cost is the mon stays asleep during the cooldown phase, meaning it's susceptible to Dream Eater etc.

Additional updates:

Combinations have had contact information added to them, and the cost mulitiplier for same move combos has been reduced from 2x to 1.75x. This is effective for new battles.

Trace has also been updated:

Originally Posted by Fat Trace

Trace:

Type: Can be Activated

When entering into battle, this Pokemon can copy an ability on one of its opponents for 6 EN. The Ability remains on the Pokemon for six (6) actions. Trace can be reused with an action later in battle for 5 EN.Wonder Guard cannot be Traced.

Command: (Ability: Trace (Target Ability) )

Pokemon with this ability: Porygon, Porygon2, Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, Plicowatt, Krillowatt.

[Athenodoros]

lol, that sub was good fun. But seriously, subs need to be codified. I mean, properly codified and written down properly, because they are probably the main recurring place of problems. Otherwise more essays will follow.