Black and White Kyurem

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Speaking of which, there should be a BW Kyurem thread in Ubers :o

So yeah, with the information that we've gotten so far, I think it's pretty safe to say that these two sexy new things will be Ubers. About time too, since Kyurem always got the bad end of the deal, IMO.



Black Kyurem (BK):
125 HP / 170 Atk / 100 Def / 120 SpA / 90 SpD / 95 Spe

Notable moves: OUTRAGE, Fusion Bolt, Dragon Claw, Substitute, Roost, Ice Beam, Draco Meteor, Freeze Shock o_0

Strongest Outrage in the game, and you'd think people should be reasonably happy with that. However, its lack of movepool kind of annoyed the crap out of everyone, especially lack of physical Ice STAB. However, this thing is still an excellent wallbreaker. It cleanly 2HKOs the bulkiest of Groudon with Choice Band Outrage, does >45% to Ferrothorn, while taking out Lugia with Fusion Bolt. To top it off, BK can easily run a mixed set with Ice Beam to take out annoying Ground-types almost immediately.




White Kyurem (WK):
125 HP / 120 Atk / 90 Def / 170 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe

Notable moves: DRACO METEOR, ICE BEAM, Fusion Flare, Focus Blast, Earth Power, Roost, Substitute, Dragon Pulse, Blizzard

This, I think, has got to be the most mindless Pokemon I have ever seen. Like I have said on IRC, as long as Kyurem-W is not facing an imminent outspeed and OHKO from the opponent, you can just click Draco Meteor, and you will never lose unless it misses. Draco Meteor coming from Base 170 SpA is just simply mind-boggling in its power, capable of OHKOing Kyogre, 2HKOing Heatran and doing 41-48% to Blissey, even, if you're holding Specs. I have never seen a Pokemon so spammable.


Discuss their potential play in Ubers!

Art by Xous54 of deviantart.

[Cheapoman]

Let's say specs White Kyurem fires off a Draco Meteor / Fusion Flare. How hard would it hit Lugia and Ho-oh if the weather is neutral? Rain? Drought?

[gamer40000]

Timid Specs White Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. Great Wall Lugia: 65.38 - 77.16%

Timid Specs White Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. Tank Ho-oh: 272-321 (65.54 - 77.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Timid Specs White Kyurem Fusion Flare vs. Great Wall Lugia: 31.25 - 37.01%

Timid Specs White Kyurem Fusion Flare Sun vs. Great Wall Lugia: 47.11 - 55.52%

Timid Specs White Kyurem Fusion Flare vs. Tank Ho-oh: 15.66 - 18.31%

Timid Specs White Kyurem Fusion Flare Sun vs. Tank Ho-oh: 23.37 - 27.71%

[-Manaphy--]

Oh wow, they have base stat totals of 700.

Can White Kyurem compete with Palkia? It has 20 more Special, but has a worse typing and worse movepool, and it doesn't really benefit from the weather in any way, and it also can't be a switch-in for Specs Kyogre.

Black Kyurem definitely looks promising, but it really wants a physical ice attack. Black Kyurem with Icicle Crash/Outrage/Fusion Bolt would be a incredible wall breaker.

[ZetoTarken]

Set in calcs is Adamant Life Orb Black Kyurem

Outrage vs 252/252 Groudon: 48.3% - 56.7%, guaranteed 2hko with Spikes

Outrage vs 252/176 Lugia: 51.9% - 61.3% high chance of 2hko, guaranteed with SR or prior damage and you outspeed :D

Fusion Bolt vs 252/176 Lugia: 58.2% - 68.8% you still outspeed :D

Outrage vs 252/4 Ferrothorn: 38.4% - 45.2%, but not the best way to get past Ferro.

Outrage vs 252/4 Arceus(neutral): 87.8% - 103.6%
Fusion Bolt vs 252/4 Arceus(neutral): 36.7% - 43.2%
Move Tutor Theorymonning

...

---

If Black Kyurem gets Ice Punch from tutor::
vs 252/252 Groudon: 80.2% - 95%
vs 252/176 Lugia: 86.5% - 102.9%
vs 252/4 Ferrothorn: 47.7% - 56.3%

If Kyurem Black gets Superpower/Fire Punch from tutor:
Fire Punch vs 252/4 Ferrothorn in rain: 63.6% - 76.1%
Superpower vs 252/4 Ferrothorn: 102.8% - 121%
Fire Punch vs Arceus(SE) neutral weather: 55% - 64.9%
Superpower vs Arceus(SE): 87.8% - 103.6%

Obviously Choice Band is also viable and depending on what you can get from move tutor, Expert Belt. Electric/Dragon coverage overlaps with Stone Edge too well so I didn't post any calcs from it, I believe it doesn't outdamages either of the moves on anything notable in ubers due to secondary typings except Arceus forms(Bug, Fire, and Ice are pretty rare)

[Mr.lol]

Palkia can BE A BLISSEY BOXER XD, which also distinguishes it. Don't get me wrong though, White Kyurem can still run a fine Choice Scarf set IMO. I'm pretty sure Black Kyurem will get Ice Punch since its a tutor move.

What saddens me is two things. Stall will be hell now since this guys can easily wall break (anyone thats used Iceus knows it gets SE hits on all the walls, these guys get to use their insane SPA instead and can hold specs / band). Secondly, Iceus's niche just got more narrow :(. What's wierder is I'm not sure what can counter both of these, in particular Black Kyurem. Chansey can try to stop White Kyurem, Black Kyurem eats Skarmory and Giratina-a alive, what ARE SUPPOSED to be physical walls. With a sub claws set it can annoy ferrothorn or it can just 2HKO (I think) it with Ice Punch. I'm hoping Gamefreak does SOMETHING to balance these things out.

Also since Salac Berries are released they can probably gimmicky Sub sets to pair up their speed XD, if they choose not to use CS. Salac in general should hinder stall even more.

[Electro Gypsy]

Steelix is the only thing I can think of when I look at Black Kyurem. I cant pull up any calcs but I think thats about all we have that can stomache Outrage, Fusion Bolt, and Ice Punch. Of course it couldnt hope to absorb a super effective Hidden Power from that 120 SpA.

[locoghoul]

hippowdon + ferrothorn can deal with black. Ttar/Rockceus maybe can deal with White. Then again, if you need two pokes to wall something it's very OP

[Rayquaza_]

No way Hippo can stand against BK. Especially when you consider that it can still fire a STAB Draco Meteor or Ice Beam with its 120 Sp.Atk.
Ferrothorn is neatly 2HKO'd by Choice Band Outrage after SR. So yeah.
White Kyurem absolutely murders Tyranitar with Focus Blast, even in sandstorm.

I think it's safe to say that both formes are the best wallbreakers in the game. Lugia is going to take a heavy hit in usage since he can't do anything to save himself against them.

[ZetoTarken]

Well if black doesn't get Ice/Fire Punch or Superpower Ferrothorn stops it easily as Kyurem's physical move pool is pretty abysmal. Hippowdon, not so much. Even if Black can't get Ice Punch, a mixed set will destroy Hippowdon with that STAB Ice Beam. Rain+Steelceus should stop White in its tracks unless they also want to gamble with Focus Blast.

Without a sub up, most if not all Scarfers can force Kyurem out so hazards should help deal with it as well because it's still an Ice poke on the ground.

edit: Ferrothorn isn't 2hko'd by CB outrage, 252/4 takes 44.3% - 52%, you need at least 12.5% in hazards or amount of damage on Ferro to even have a chance to 2hko through that because of protect.

[Rayquaza_]

Don't forget that Black Kyurem might get access to Thunder Wave, effectively crippling both Ferrothorn and Steel Arceus on the switch. If that's the case it's not completely helpless against them. Then add the fact that both are trapped by Magnezone...
Arceus could run Refresh but it already suffers from 4MSS and it must run Focus Blast/EQ/Earth Power to deal with Magnezone in the rain.

[Anikrahman1995]

Originally Posted by Fat Krabmeat

Modest 252 SAtk Specs Mewtwo OHKOs Calm 252 Sdef White Kyurem with either Aura Sphere (min 77%) after rocks or outright with Focus Miss.

Of course, Specs Mewtwo dies before that if they're scarfed.

Best counter I can think of.

After an argument in the Uber CCAT, I was told mods would remove irrelevant information. I am just gonna say that using specs mewtwo is like using specs Deoxys-A. Modest Specs Mewtwo does not exist and can be called a gimmick. Please check the definition of a counter, Mewtwo is instantly vapourized by both of them.
On Topic: I hope that White Reshiram gets Flame Charge and other fire moves as well. One of the benefits of their typings is that Kyogre cannot revenge them well. Zekrom could be revenged by ice beam and Reshiram could be revenged by surf/water spout.
EDIT: I am not even gonna reply to the post below mine. I dont want a warning. Man why not just use Terrakion which will rise in usage with these new formes. Scarf Terrakion OHKOs both of them with Close Combat. Just wondering, what are the implications on species clause now that Reshiram/Zekrom has to merge on Kyurem to get white/black Kyurem?

poppy edit: and you should trust us to do our job :)
EDIT: Thanks! Its good to know we can trust the mods here.

[Krabmeat]

If it's the only thing that can stop them, guaranteed, it'll start existing. Modest 252 Specs Mewtwo counters any Kyurem that isn't scarfed, and that's assuming they're as bulky as possible. Chances are they won't be and you can run a scarf and still get the OHKO. (Edit: Nope, not happening lol)

Metagross seems promising, it can OHKO with Meteor Mash and is rarely 2HKOed by a banded Black outrage.

Poppy edit: I deleted one of your earlier posts, but i'll leave this one here as an example; it is not okay to propagate blatant untruths back only with stupidity and a cocky, presumptuous attitude.
Take this as a warning, next time I'll infract.

[ElectivireRocks]

You know what would be funny... if White Kyurem gets access to Will-o-wisp.
Guts is non-existant in ubers (save for Heracross, who wouldn't even dare to switch on Kyurem), so it can lure and cripple every single priority user other than Refresh Arceus on the switch.

Everyone expects BK and WK to run all-out-attacking sets to the point they forget their decent bulk, useful resistances and (presumably) access to some sort of supporting moves. BK can probably make good use of Sub+Dragon Tail unlike Zekrom who has worse HP and speed.

[Poppy]

I just cleaned up this thread. If you're going to say something like kyurem-r/z beats x or y beats kyurem-r/z, give us some calcs and reasoning. It is not acceptable to say it can probably survive this, etc. etc.

The discussion here should focus on what these two pokemon are capable of, and what sets that may run.

Let me also remind you that reasoning such as 'surprise factor' and 'they'll expect this or another' are pretty piss poor and unreliable in general. I will also admonish anyway who dares to post 'troll sets' or anything with 'funny' in it (yes, this applies to you, above poster).

Personally, I hope for at least Ice Punch on Black Kyurem, and preferably Icicle Crash. Defensive sets are most likely to have very little advantage over their offensive counterparts, Ice / Dragon is terrible defensively, and only worse in a dragon infested metagame; a Stealth Rock weakness doesn't help either.

Dominant sets will probably be choice, sub, and mixing and matching with offensive sets (movepool, EVs, item). There are possibilities in lures such as Haban and mixed sets, and indeed mixed may be their best set, considering their ridiculous offences.

Anyway, I don't enjoy being draconian or tyrannical, but seriously, warnings can and will be given out. Post better.

[ElectivireRocks]

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

Anyway, I don't enjoy being draconian or tyrannical, but seriously, warnings can and will be given out. Post better.

Start by taking your own advice then. Everyone in this thread has been contributing in a way or another so gratuitously deleting posts is a very unprofessional and insulting attitude. The not-sosubtle "warning" makes you look even worse.

You can't just come and say "This is what Black and White Kyurem do, these are the sets they'll run and you can't even think outside of the box else I delete your posts" just like that.
Especially when you don't know their full movepools, how the Uber metagame is going to react to their presence and the impact of the new move tutors in that envirorment.
Until all that info is known, speculation and theorymoning is all we can provide and shouldn't be discouraged.

[Poppy]

i've just about had it with your bullshit.

i am taking my own advice, i posted my own theorymon with acceptable levels of assumption and knowledge of the ubers metagame, something barely anyone else has done in this thread.

i said sets that MAY run

i do not gratuitously delete posts, i deleted retarded posts that talk about the new kyurem formes being modest specs mewtwo counters. you're lucky i didn't delete yours, i can tell you right now that sub wow will not work on an ice / dragon pokemon.

speculation and theorymon at this point should be encouraged, but not with the lack of experience i can tell you have. luring priority users? don't make me laugh, things that are going to switch into the new kyurem formes are aiming to absorb an attack. i'm not going to switch my rayquaza, deoxys-a, or arceus into black or white kyurem any time soon. furthermore, if your argument is WoW-ing a priority user before they revenge-kill you then there is no hope.

there's a difference between contributing and posting and you would do well to note who is actually providing useful information and inane, repetitive falsehoods.

i have already been very lenient, leaving posts talking about hippo walling an ice pokemon, metagross being used in ubers and mentions of steelix.

one other thing i have been noticing a lot is people posting an 'idea' then saying it is faulted and dismissing it. an example being the steelix post. this is completely pointless and it's like voting, then retracting, then writing a post about it on an internet forum.

[CrackinSkulls]

this is just a random question would it be ok to have both kyurem formes in one team or would it be blocked by species clause?

EDIT: also black kyurem and white kyurem are so similar to there inspired formes im sure that the sets will be really similar, mix attacker and choice scarf for black and specs/ scarf for white. i still think reshiram and zekrom are better (at least zekrom) because for 20 extra base stat you get a really crappy ice typing and the damage calculations shown above seem like they net pretty similar OH and 2HKO's. and do we know if they get any notable boosting moves besides hone claws because otherwise i think they are quite gimmicky and the originals are far better.


EDIT2: and poppy every time i read one of your posts i would stare at the boy throw the ball for at least 10 minutes WHY DID YOU CHANGE IT??

[Poppy]

I believe they have different pokedex numbers, so that would be fine. Not to mention their stat spreads and movepools are different, so I'm almost certain that you can use both on them on the same team without violating species clause :).

[ginganinja]

Actually I was reading Shrangs Warstory (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4213558) and was wondering if Kyurem could cause a spike in Hail, which is actually pretty neat for White Kyurem which can spam Specs Blizzard which does a fair amount of damage to pretty much everything. I am pretty sure that Specs Focus Blast (based on the current stats in the OP) 2KOs Chansey and I think that Blizzard gets pretty close after hail damage + SR which is not a bad feat to accomplish.

The Ice typing isn't THAT bad when you factor in Giratina / Groudon / Lugia and prolly a few other things I am forgetting are all weak to Ice Attacks, and stuff like Ferrothorn is only Neutral. Zekrom and Reshiram are also slower (iirc) which mean that both Kyurem forms can potentially do the scarf thing better. Food for thought I guess.

[CrackinSkulls]

in ubers it might just be me but the difference of 90-95 is not a huge one because you still oustpeed the same things like mewtwo and dakrai etc plus really a hail team means you need abomasnow, another ice type now from reading my posts you must have detected a particular hatred for ice typing. I guess you do get the speed tie with a +1 rayquaza but relying on a speed tie?? really?? I can understand where you are coming from and im sure many people will use the new forms however i think that slowly people will revert to the originals. IMO it is just outclassed by there predecessors.

EDIT: Giratina/Groudon/Lugia have never been impossible to handle anyway giratina will cower in fear of your dragon stabs while groudon will have a hard time against reshirams blue flare especially as it provides the sun. even Sub + Hone Claws can be used to decimate it while still getting hitting zekroms normal targets. Lugia is cleany 2HKO'd by a LO Bolt Strike. I personally think that these two have been hyped up too much and unless they get an amazing movepool they are just outclassed

[ginganinja]

Man

Dude stop avoiding the point. White Kyurem covers all these walls in ONE move, Zekrom cannot claim to do this, (its fucked by Groudon and Ferrothorn), and Reshriam needs Sun up (tricky in a game dominated by Kyogre) to achieve maximum Power. White Kyurem just doesn't need this. Blizzard would be nice, but Ice Beam does the job. Heck, fuck all RESISTS Ice Beam, making it a damn good spammable move. If you add in Blizzard, suddenly Kyurem can spam basically a Special Outrage, that doesn't lock it in or cause confusion, and still has Focus Blast to handle Chansey just fine.

I guess you do get the speed tie with a +1 rayquaza but relying on a speed tie?? really?

Yeah ummmm.

I am going to use your own Argument, Scarf Zekrom hits 90 base speed which ties with basically every scarfer in ubers (or loses) bar Blaziken (has Speed Boost anyway), and Excadrill (Has acess to Sand Rush). Scarf WHITE Kyurem (for example) hits 95 base speed, which means it beats scarf Dialga, Scarf Zekrom, Scarf Reshiram, Scarf Kyogre, +1 (Flame Charge) Ho-Oh, and can revenge Deoxys A. Oh yea, and you tie with +1 DD Rayquaza whereas your Scarf Zekrom loses. So with all that, yea "why would you run Scarf White Kyurem?"

[Poppy]

lol your argument was basically this pokemon is outclassed because two pokemon can do what it does (which isn't even true).

the new kyurem formes are IMPOSSIBLE to outclass, by virtue of their unique typing only shared with weakshit kyurem, and their offensive stats giving them the strongest draco meteor and outrage. outclassed? the new formes fill a niche that no other pokemon that currently exists can claim.

ginga brings up an interesting point, one that i was also thinking about. previously hail had no real abusers (kyurem's 100% acc blizzard isn't that big of a deal) and served more as an anti-weather similar to rayquaza, rather than an actual weather your team would abuse. with offenses as high as 170 is it worthwhile to run hail? blizzard coming off of that is a wrecking ball, and i have no doubt all neutralities except blissey and chansey can be ohko'd with minor hazard support. yet, carrying two ice types, and by extension, two SR weaks, will be very difficult to properly build around. taking all of that into account, i'm on the fence as to whether hail will be an effective playstyle or not (i'm still more doubtful than optimistic atm :S).

[shrang]

With base 170 SpA, I probably couldn't even bother to run Hail to be honest. Ice Beam in all its greatness is probably good enough as it is. Hell, I wouldn't even mind sticking Blizzard on the end somewhere. I wouldn't care about about 70% accuracy if it means 70% to screw up whatever just came in. I mean, even though Rain is everywhere, we still use Thunder on our Palkias on a sun team. Does it matter? No. I'd probably just run like Draco Meteor / Ice Beam / Blizzard / Fusion Flare (or Blue Flare, if we're lucky) on my Specs White Kyurem.

[RBG*]

Both Kyurem formes should have the same Pokedex number, which means you most likely can't use them on the same team.

poppy edit: he's more qualified on this than i am, so he's probably right. disregard my last post concerning this issue.