1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,835
    I'm currently running scarf Kyurem-White in hail and having lots of fun with it. I'm using it with SR + Spin Excadrill with Mold Breaker and a few coverage mons. I figured the entire team would suck so I only made it for fun to begin with, but I'm currently 5-1 on PS.

    Personally I think these Kyurem forms will be a really nice addition to Ubers.
  2. J~mal

    J~mal

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    If only BK got Icicle Crash...
  3. KTVX

    KTVX

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    61
    How viable would be a BK set with Outrage - Draco Meteor - Fusion Bolt - Freeze Shock With power herb? This way it could use DM when necessary without minding the Sp.A drop since it's physically based, and also fire a most deadly freeze shock on something like Lugia or Groudon without the charge turn.
  4. Kazo

    Kazo

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    229
    Not sure if this has been said yet, but I am like 99% sure that you can only have 1 merged Kyurem at a time. When you use the item to merge Kyurem, it becomes a different item(still called the same thing/same icon) but this item will only separate Kyurem. It wont let you merge another set until you separate the merged Kyurem. It then turns back into the original item.

    This means it is illegal to use both of Kyurem's forms on the same team.
  5. SuperHydreigon1996

    SuperHydreigon1996

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    53
    Apparently, Game Freak thinks it wouldn't make sense for Kyurem to learn Ice Punch when it clearly has claws/hands so it could make fists with them. Oh well, maybe they'll make it learn Icicle Crash sometime in the future.
  6. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,238
    You can't just trade the other one over?
  7. Vincent

    Vincent

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    56
    I will copy my post from PO forum where i reply a comparision bewteen new Kyurem's forms with Palkia, saying that the new forms should be compared with Rayquaza:

    Well, Palkia is probably better in its niches than the new Kyurem's forms, but i don't think the new forms should be compared with Palkia, but with Rayquaza in terms of wallbreaking, look their advantadges over each other (i won't talk about all they can do since they're similar in somethings, i will talk just about the differences):

    Rayquaza
    -Priority move
    -Spikes and Toxic Spikes Immunity
    -Powerful STAB Dragons attacks (both physically and specially) and Coverage through Fire and Fighting or Ground attacks

    Kyurem
    -Bulkier
    -STABed Ice attacks to take down Groudon and Lugia easier than MixQuaza
    -VERY powerful STAB Dragon attacks, and Coverage through Eletric or Fire

    Let's imagine these walls (some are physical, some special, some are both):

    Groudon, Lugia, Giratina, Blissey/Chansey, Skarmory, Ho-Oh, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn and Forretress

    Rayquaza with Draco Meteor/ExtremeSpeed/Outrage/Overheat can hit all of them for super effective damage, except for Groudon and Lugia that could do something while surviving. Rayquaza can't SE damage Chansey, Ho-Oh and Tentacruel either, but Outrage kills those anyway, the problem is that it gets locked into Outrage and can be trapped by Ferrothorn, so Brick Break is an option over Outrage to still kill Chansey, but in this case it loses the power of Outrage to quickly kill Ho-Oh and Tentacruel, so let's says that Rayquaza puts V-Create over both Outrage and Overheat, what means it still has the Fire coverage and now can kill Chansey like it had Outrage, it opens door for one last slot that can be fullfiled by Earthquake to kill Tentacruel quickly without get locked, or Outrage to kill quickly both Ho-Oh and Tentacruel while getting yourself locked.

    When i say "to quickly kill someone" i mean a way you can remove a threat from the opponent's team without receive to much damage (for example, a MixQuaza without Outrage would not kill Ho-Oh with Draco Meteor, ExtremeSpeed, or other attacks, and would be seriously damaged by Brave Bird).

    Well, even if you aren't affraid of being locked into Outrage, then you get Draco Meteor/ExtremeSpeed/Outrage/V-Create, but you have not Brick Break or Earthquake to quickly kill Heatran and Dialga.

    And after all of these you still won't kill Groudon and Lugia in one hit.

    Now let's see Kyurem:

    The same walls i put against Rayquaza are destroyed by the same coverage, but now i can ignore Sturdy from Forretress and Skarmory killing them in one hit with Fusion Flare or Fusion Bolt (depending what Kyurem i'm using), ignore Flash Fire from Heatran seriously damaging it with Sun-Boosted Fusion Flare, or even trying Focus Blast against both Heatran and Dialga. Now i have a much easier time against Groudon and Lugia than MixQuaza unleashing my STABed Ice attacks, or killing Ho-Oh and Tentacruel with Fusion Bolt to don't get locked into Outrage.

    I just see only two real problems when comparing Mixed Movesets from the new Kyurem's forms with MixQuaza:

    1-The absence of a powerful physical attack that don't get you locked (Outrage) or that doesn't have to charge (Freeze Shock), meaning that Kyurems will have a harder time to kill Chansey than Brick Break/V-Create Quaza;
    2-You will have to choose between Fire and Electric. Chansey, Ho-Oh and Tentacruel can hold against the Fire one unless it Outrages them, but saying again, getting locked is a problem bigger than SR weakness. Chansey, Ferrothorn and Forretress can stand against the Electric one, unless it Outrages or Freeze Shocks Chansey and has HP Fire.

    Personally i would go Focus Blast/Freeze Shock/Fusion Bolt/HP Fire with Black Kyurem, because Freeze Shock cause massive damage against Groudon and Lugia, and the only two Dragons that don't get SE damage from it are Palkia and Dialga. Palkia get killed by one hit anyway (it's not like someone would switch a Palkia into this attack, or i would switch Kyurem against Palkia, but i'm just exploring its potencial), and Dialga (and Heatran, and Tyranitar) get killed by Focus Blast. HP Fire for Ferro and Forry, Fusion Bolt for Skarmory, Tentacruel and Ho-Oh (i could kill the phoenix with Freeze Shock, but i don't want to charge). Freeze Shock kills Chansey easily too if she don't have Protect.

    And with White Kyurem i would go Draco Meteor/Fusion Flare/Ice Beam/Outrage.

    Actually i think Black Kyurem is BETTER than the White one, despite all the people saying the other way, because HP Electric is a bad idea, but HP Fire isn't, so the Black can have Fusion Bolt and HP Fire, but the White can't have Fusion Flare and HP Electric (unless you don't know what you're doing, because HP Electric is not worth it), giving the Black a better coverage. The OTHER reason i think that is because the Uber Metagame is Specially oriented, so generally peoples expend more EVs in Special Defense for theirs walls, resisting better against the White one, but being more vulnerable to the Black one.
  8. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    how viable is scizor as a check for these two pokemon?

    i'm guessing that a cb bullet punch should OHKO each pokemon after SR (unless i greatly underestimated their bulk) and scizor should be able to tank 1 of either specs dm / band outrage with a semi-bulky spread.
  9. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    320
    This is actually true, if the "no two of the same pokemon on one team" clause is going to work like that.

    Technically, Black Kyurem = Zekrom + Kyurem and White Kyurem = Reshiram + Kyurem. So, if you're using Black Kyurem, you've already got both a Zekrom and a Kyurem on your team.

    PS: These Pokemon are beastly.
    PPS: The BST is only 20 less than Arceus. (700 vs. 720). Oh yeah, and no Ice Punch on Kyurem is ridiculous.

    PPPS: If it does occur that Kyurem-B can't be on the same team as Zekrom, Kyurem, or Kyurem-W, I don't think it will affect their usage much at all, since Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W compound their many weaknesses, and Zekrom + Kyurem-B on the same team just won't make sense anyway, especially with Fusion Bolt and Terravolt (or Fusion Flare and Turboblaze).
  10. Cristhianmlr

    Cristhianmlr

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    50
    Adamant Black Kyurem / 31 IVs Sp. At. / 0 EVs + Ice Beam + Life Orb:

    OHKO Gliscor (possible without LO) and Garchomp.
    2HKO Hippowdon and Excadrill.

    Magnezone is probably the best counter against B-Kyurem without Earth Power.

    W-Kyurem seems to be better than B-Kyurem: titanic Special At., STABed Ice Beam and Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor, and Fusion Flare, that brings MUCH better coverage that Fusion Bolt. With Outrage, it will devastate pink blobs. Add Turboblaze and it will kill every single PKMN with one or two blows.

    Tiers:
    W-Kyurem - Uber
    B-Kyurem - OU or Uber
  11. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,238
    It is based on Pokedex number. Black/White Kyurem are 646 in the Pokedex. Zekrom/Reshiram are 644 and 645. So both Kyurem are illegal on the same team, but Zekrom and Reshiram are legal with the Kyurem formes.
  12. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    320
    Oh, alright, if that's the way it is, then cool. But like I said in my post edit, I don't think many people will want to use Reshiram and Kyurem-W, Zekrom and Kyurem-B, or both formes on the same team anyway.
  13. Kazo

    Kazo

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    229
    The game will not let you trade a pokemon in a new form.
  14. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,077
    Scizor faces an ohko from White Kyurem's Specs Draco Meteor after SR much of the time. Black Kyurem's Outrage 2hkos easily. CB Bullet Punch fails to ohko either form without SR.

    It really does seem like Black Kyurem got the short end of the stick here, since Fusion Flare is about 100x better than Fusion Bolt and Draco Meteor suits itself much better to the hit-and-run playstyle their shitty typing and movepool encourages. Black Kyurem is basically a stronger Haxorus with worse typing, but unlike White Kyurem, the higher attack doesn't really lend itself to any important KOs (skarm is still barely 3hko'd, ferrothorn is 3hko'd, etc).
  15. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,230
    If I were to run cb on black kyurem, I would use freeze shock on the last slot simply because it has no other viable option except sleep talk (don't even say ice beam or hp fire). Its uses are extremely situational, but if you do land it, it will hurt like crazy. Predict a ferro switching in, hope it doesn't have protect, and let loose. If ferro switches out, whatever comes in will probably die or take a truckload. If ferro stays in, it will die. Theorymon also provided a stall breaking example yesterday in a pinch situation.

    So yeah don't completely rule out freeze shock. It's not a good move, but it's not unviable.
  16. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,677
    How does B-Kyurem not automatically warrant ubers status?


    Freeze Shock is simply good as a filler. It has it's situations where it can boss but otherwise it won't work all to well unless you make a set revolving around it (and that'd be a waste). In situations like you said: when a team has no mon with protect OR a wall that resists ice it'd do a truckload and a half. Meaning that it'd be a pretty good filler just for the sheer threat it posses if nothing else.
  17. KTVX

    KTVX

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    61
    Yeah, it's like a monstrous battering ram that has a wide arsenal, but once it uses one of its weapons it can't reuse it. It deploys all ordinance when needed, then dies or if possible retreats after doing some massive damage.
  18. Rater

    Rater

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    12
    From what I've read, it seems that Kyreum W is harder to counter/check than Kyreum B I've been searching for checks to this beast and the best i've found so far is special defensive heatran. I've provided some calcs to prove this.

    Naive 252sp.att +lifeorb Draco meteor vs 252sp.def and 252hp, calm heatran= 32.38%-38.08%
    Modest 252sp.att +lifeorb Draco meteor vs 252sp.def and 252hp , calm heatran= 35.75%-41.97%

    Naive 4att +lifeorb Outrage vs 252sp.def and 252hp, calm heatran= 21.76%-25.65%



    Modest 252sp.att choice specs Draco meteor vs 252 sp.def and 252hp, calm heatran= 41.19%-48.45%
    Timid 252sp.att choice specs Draco meteor vs 252 sp.def and 252hp, calm heatran= 37.31%-44.3%

    As you can see heatran can tank the strongest move in Kyreum Ws movepool and can't even be koed after draco meteor+outrage. Of course heatran can't take earth power without air balloon and focus miss without chople berry. Most Kyreum Ws wont be running focus miss due to fusion flare taking out most steels so air balloon would probably be the most suitable item in this case. What is apparent is that heatran can definetly take on the specs set with good prediction. It can even fight back with dragon pulse or torment to screw up kyreum.

    4sp.att, calm dragon pulse vs 0sp.def and 4hp Kyreum= 45.92%-54.59%.

    What is even more astounding is that heatran can actually survive a draco meteor+earth power from the life orb set.

    252 (-2)sp.att, naive +life orb earth power vs 252sp.def and 252hp heatran= 62.18%-73.58%.
    Its a shaky risk to take but, providing minimum damage and at full health, a naive draco meteor+earth power cant ko heatran. I think this calculation alone should make heatran one of the few reliable checks to Kyreum W.
  19. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,836
    But, what if you are caught on the switch-in by Focus Blast? Neutral Life Orb Kyurem-W does 75% minimum. Fusion Flare also has 99.61% to 2HKO with Stealth Rock with the same Kyogre. Kyurem-W is definitely the new epitome of "oh crap" for me. Basically, a team that does not have Chansey is wrecked. Even Ho-oh is OHKOed after Stealth Rock!
  20. Rater

    Rater

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    12
    252sp.att, naive +life orb fusion flare vs 252sp def and 252hp heatran = 34.2%-40.41%.
    This is no where near a 2 ko even with rocks up.
    Il admit that specs fusion flare can 2 ko with rocks up. You would need to predict a draco meteor which isnt hard if your switching from a poke that resists fusion flare.
    Chansey is destroyed by the mix set by the way lol
  21. Prophet

    Prophet

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    166
    You seem to be forgetting that it has Focus Blast, which will more than do the trick unless you have bad luck with the accuracy.
  22. Rater

    Rater

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    12
    Most mixed sets for kyreum W will consist of draco meteor/dragon pulse, outrage, fusion flare, earth power/focus blast. Earth power is extremely more favourable over focus blast due to better coverage. Most specs sets will consist of draco meteor, fusion flare, focus blast, earth power. Obviously your not going to bring in heatran if you suspect focus blast coming your way. So, what im saying is that heatran will be a good check to the most popular sets and will be blasted very rarely by a random focus miss which only has 70% accuracy as well.
  23. Rater

    Rater

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    12
    Oh yeah, well ice beam would go over focus blast meaning that heatran would basically have nothing to fear but fusion flare+stealth rocks from the specs set which can be mitigated by using protect to gain more leftovers recovery :)
  24. nygerman

    nygerman

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    159
    Hopefully this would make Kyurem an ou instead of a uu with roost.


    Really, Kyurem doesn't compete too well in Ubers. Just another Rayquaza with no boosts. Essentially a scarf slave. There movepool is restricted to outrage, draco meteor, ice beam, and fire and electric. Although they are bulky and I see them overpowering no boost mixed attackers, in the end they're just Rayquaza's brother.

    White Kyurem is way too hyped just like Reshiram, but Sun teams lose in the end.
    Black Kyurem is Haxorus's long lost brother firing those powerful outrages.
  25. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,836
    I forgot to mention sun. As for the mixed set, you're correct, I forgot Kyurem-W has 120 Attack. But I suppose a smart play with Chansey and a Physical Wall such as Skarmory can beat Mixed ones.


    And no, Ice Beam is not a must. Everything that's weak to it is wrecked by Draco Meteor, including the ones you have mentioned: Groudon and Lugia. Kyurem-W is such a monster, dear god.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)