1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,127
    White Kyurem is mindless "click Draco Meteor or one of your other attacks, watch things die", but Black Kyurem isn't bad at all.

    I just tried a Sub/Roost/Fusion Bolt/Dragon Claw @Leftovers set. To give you an idea of how destructive it is, it OHKO'd Ho-oh at full health. Did I mention that BK was holding Lefties?

    It's so easy to set up against a plethora of walls (Blissey and Lugia in particular) and it single-handedly defeats all of them with the appropriate attack. You can replace Dragon Claw with Ice Beam if you're afraid of physical walls. Specially defensive Ferrothorn gives it trouble, but thanks to Sub and Roost BK will come on top.

    White Kyurem will probably force many pokemon like Kyogre to run specially defensive sets and that's where Black Kyurem comes in. Kyogre is hoping to "wall" White with a Sp.Def spread? Meet Black Kyurem's Fusion Bolt. And unlike Zekrom, BK can actually switch on Kyogre.

    Considering that a single Freeze Shock has 10 BP less than 2 Ice Punches, I don't think it's completely unusable.
    Kyurem's physical movepool is pretty limited anyway so you might as well slap FS on a Choice Band set and it might be useful once in a blue moon.

    If my calculations are right CB Freeze Shock is so strong that it OHKO's the standard uber Ferrothorn 100% (90% factoring accuracy) of the time even without entry hazards.
    It could also be useful to OHKO Wobbuffet without giving it the chance to use Counter (Outrage can never OHKO 252/252 with a +Def nature, Freeze Shock will with SR on the field).

    Even if they switch out, unless Heatran or Cloyster are sent in (the only viable pokemon in ubers with a 4x ice resist), everything is going to take huge damage with a chance of paralysis on top of it.
  2. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,745
    It's completely unusable without power herb. Merit is not given to sets based on their difficulty of use and you do not fault sets for their simplicity. Choice specs latios is simple as fuck, but it's an amazing pokemon.

    Creativity is cool but simplicity and effectiveness takes priority, white kyurem just looks way better, it can use its most dominant attacking stat with potent dual STABs. Black Kyurem is only good on the virtue of its outrageous stat distribution.
  3. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    I must disagree Poppy. Theorymon gave me a perfect example for Freeze Shock.

    You're using a Kyurem-B against a Stall team, that has Chansey, Giratina, and Skarmory up. Fusion Bolt is resisted by Giratina, Outrage is resisted by Skarmory. The best choice for you right now is Freeze Shock - it guarantees that something is going down, without thinking much. It's a good filler move, in my opinion.
  4. Death Phenomeno

    Death Phenomeno I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    884
    Being gimmicky aside, how well/bad can the common Über Pokémon (except Kyogre) take a Power Herb + Freeze Shock? It's literally a one-shot, but something is probably going down and at least it's not Hyper Beam.

    Poor Black Kyurem (or 黒 Kyurem if you want to abbreviate) doesn't even get Ice Fang when the other 2 do.
  5. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,127
    Power Herb is not worth it. Choice Band Freeze Shock can OHKO a lot of things including Ferrothorn but you must be sure that 1. the opponent doesn't have Cloyster or Heatran 2. nothing in the opponent's team can outspeed or use priority. It's good for lategame wallbreaking but that's it.

    Still, Black Kyurem is much better than White at taking down Kyogre, Lugia, Ho-oh, Chansey and Blissey. A mixed set doesn't care about Groudon either.
  6. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,745
    The conditions for that are absurd, you'd have to be facing a full on stall team without a solid ice resist or if you're in a position where everything is slower than you just fucking use outrage or something.

    I dunno, maybe I just don't see it. Also CB Freeze Shock... locking yourself into a charge up move with an SR weak pokemon is just suicidal, there's an aversion to SR weak choiced pokemon for a reason.
  7. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,677
    I agree with Poppy. The fact is you'll need to use Freeze Shock in specific situations for it to work out. Maybe you can set up a substitute and then freeze shock ,but even then, you're trying to use Freeze Shock, you're not using it because it's useful or a better option then other moves in any way.
  8. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,676
    I'm currently running scarf Kyurem-White in hail and having lots of fun with it. I'm using it with SR + Spin Excadrill with Mold Breaker and a few coverage mons. I figured the entire team would suck so I only made it for fun to begin with, but I'm currently 5-1 on PS.

    Personally I think these Kyurem forms will be a really nice addition to Ubers.
  9. J~mal

    J~mal

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    If only BK got Icicle Crash...
  10. KTVX

    KTVX

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    61
    How viable would be a BK set with Outrage - Draco Meteor - Fusion Bolt - Freeze Shock With power herb? This way it could use DM when necessary without minding the Sp.A drop since it's physically based, and also fire a most deadly freeze shock on something like Lugia or Groudon without the charge turn.
  11. Kazo

    Kazo

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    228
    Not sure if this has been said yet, but I am like 99% sure that you can only have 1 merged Kyurem at a time. When you use the item to merge Kyurem, it becomes a different item(still called the same thing/same icon) but this item will only separate Kyurem. It wont let you merge another set until you separate the merged Kyurem. It then turns back into the original item.

    This means it is illegal to use both of Kyurem's forms on the same team.
  12. SuperHydreigon1996

    SuperHydreigon1996

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    53
    Apparently, Game Freak thinks it wouldn't make sense for Kyurem to learn Ice Punch when it clearly has claws/hands so it could make fists with them. Oh well, maybe they'll make it learn Icicle Crash sometime in the future.
  13. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,604
    You can't just trade the other one over?
  14. Vincent

    Vincent

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    56
    I will copy my post from PO forum where i reply a comparision bewteen new Kyurem's forms with Palkia, saying that the new forms should be compared with Rayquaza:

    Well, Palkia is probably better in its niches than the new Kyurem's forms, but i don't think the new forms should be compared with Palkia, but with Rayquaza in terms of wallbreaking, look their advantadges over each other (i won't talk about all they can do since they're similar in somethings, i will talk just about the differences):

    Rayquaza
    -Priority move
    -Spikes and Toxic Spikes Immunity
    -Powerful STAB Dragons attacks (both physically and specially) and Coverage through Fire and Fighting or Ground attacks

    Kyurem
    -Bulkier
    -STABed Ice attacks to take down Groudon and Lugia easier than MixQuaza
    -VERY powerful STAB Dragon attacks, and Coverage through Eletric or Fire

    Let's imagine these walls (some are physical, some special, some are both):

    Groudon, Lugia, Giratina, Blissey/Chansey, Skarmory, Ho-Oh, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn and Forretress

    Rayquaza with Draco Meteor/ExtremeSpeed/Outrage/Overheat can hit all of them for super effective damage, except for Groudon and Lugia that could do something while surviving. Rayquaza can't SE damage Chansey, Ho-Oh and Tentacruel either, but Outrage kills those anyway, the problem is that it gets locked into Outrage and can be trapped by Ferrothorn, so Brick Break is an option over Outrage to still kill Chansey, but in this case it loses the power of Outrage to quickly kill Ho-Oh and Tentacruel, so let's says that Rayquaza puts V-Create over both Outrage and Overheat, what means it still has the Fire coverage and now can kill Chansey like it had Outrage, it opens door for one last slot that can be fullfiled by Earthquake to kill Tentacruel quickly without get locked, or Outrage to kill quickly both Ho-Oh and Tentacruel while getting yourself locked.

    When i say "to quickly kill someone" i mean a way you can remove a threat from the opponent's team without receive to much damage (for example, a MixQuaza without Outrage would not kill Ho-Oh with Draco Meteor, ExtremeSpeed, or other attacks, and would be seriously damaged by Brave Bird).

    Well, even if you aren't affraid of being locked into Outrage, then you get Draco Meteor/ExtremeSpeed/Outrage/V-Create, but you have not Brick Break or Earthquake to quickly kill Heatran and Dialga.

    And after all of these you still won't kill Groudon and Lugia in one hit.

    Now let's see Kyurem:

    The same walls i put against Rayquaza are destroyed by the same coverage, but now i can ignore Sturdy from Forretress and Skarmory killing them in one hit with Fusion Flare or Fusion Bolt (depending what Kyurem i'm using), ignore Flash Fire from Heatran seriously damaging it with Sun-Boosted Fusion Flare, or even trying Focus Blast against both Heatran and Dialga. Now i have a much easier time against Groudon and Lugia than MixQuaza unleashing my STABed Ice attacks, or killing Ho-Oh and Tentacruel with Fusion Bolt to don't get locked into Outrage.

    I just see only two real problems when comparing Mixed Movesets from the new Kyurem's forms with MixQuaza:

    1-The absence of a powerful physical attack that don't get you locked (Outrage) or that doesn't have to charge (Freeze Shock), meaning that Kyurems will have a harder time to kill Chansey than Brick Break/V-Create Quaza;
    2-You will have to choose between Fire and Electric. Chansey, Ho-Oh and Tentacruel can hold against the Fire one unless it Outrages them, but saying again, getting locked is a problem bigger than SR weakness. Chansey, Ferrothorn and Forretress can stand against the Electric one, unless it Outrages or Freeze Shocks Chansey and has HP Fire.

    Personally i would go Focus Blast/Freeze Shock/Fusion Bolt/HP Fire with Black Kyurem, because Freeze Shock cause massive damage against Groudon and Lugia, and the only two Dragons that don't get SE damage from it are Palkia and Dialga. Palkia get killed by one hit anyway (it's not like someone would switch a Palkia into this attack, or i would switch Kyurem against Palkia, but i'm just exploring its potencial), and Dialga (and Heatran, and Tyranitar) get killed by Focus Blast. HP Fire for Ferro and Forry, Fusion Bolt for Skarmory, Tentacruel and Ho-Oh (i could kill the phoenix with Freeze Shock, but i don't want to charge). Freeze Shock kills Chansey easily too if she don't have Protect.

    And with White Kyurem i would go Draco Meteor/Fusion Flare/Ice Beam/Outrage.

    Actually i think Black Kyurem is BETTER than the White one, despite all the people saying the other way, because HP Electric is a bad idea, but HP Fire isn't, so the Black can have Fusion Bolt and HP Fire, but the White can't have Fusion Flare and HP Electric (unless you don't know what you're doing, because HP Electric is not worth it), giving the Black a better coverage. The OTHER reason i think that is because the Uber Metagame is Specially oriented, so generally peoples expend more EVs in Special Defense for theirs walls, resisting better against the White one, but being more vulnerable to the Black one.
  15. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    how viable is scizor as a check for these two pokemon?

    i'm guessing that a cb bullet punch should OHKO each pokemon after SR (unless i greatly underestimated their bulk) and scizor should be able to tank 1 of either specs dm / band outrage with a semi-bulky spread.
  16. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    320
    This is actually true, if the "no two of the same pokemon on one team" clause is going to work like that.

    Technically, Black Kyurem = Zekrom + Kyurem and White Kyurem = Reshiram + Kyurem. So, if you're using Black Kyurem, you've already got both a Zekrom and a Kyurem on your team.

    PS: These Pokemon are beastly.
    PPS: The BST is only 20 less than Arceus. (700 vs. 720). Oh yeah, and no Ice Punch on Kyurem is ridiculous.

    PPPS: If it does occur that Kyurem-B can't be on the same team as Zekrom, Kyurem, or Kyurem-W, I don't think it will affect their usage much at all, since Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W compound their many weaknesses, and Zekrom + Kyurem-B on the same team just won't make sense anyway, especially with Fusion Bolt and Terravolt (or Fusion Flare and Turboblaze).
  17. Cristhianmlr

    Cristhianmlr

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    50
    Adamant Black Kyurem / 31 IVs Sp. At. / 0 EVs + Ice Beam + Life Orb:

    OHKO Gliscor (possible without LO) and Garchomp.
    2HKO Hippowdon and Excadrill.

    Magnezone is probably the best counter against B-Kyurem without Earth Power.

    W-Kyurem seems to be better than B-Kyurem: titanic Special At., STABed Ice Beam and Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor, and Fusion Flare, that brings MUCH better coverage that Fusion Bolt. With Outrage, it will devastate pink blobs. Add Turboblaze and it will kill every single PKMN with one or two blows.

    Tiers:
    W-Kyurem - Uber
    B-Kyurem - OU or Uber
  18. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,604
    It is based on Pokedex number. Black/White Kyurem are 646 in the Pokedex. Zekrom/Reshiram are 644 and 645. So both Kyurem are illegal on the same team, but Zekrom and Reshiram are legal with the Kyurem formes.
  19. OVERGRO

    OVERGRO

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    320
    Oh, alright, if that's the way it is, then cool. But like I said in my post edit, I don't think many people will want to use Reshiram and Kyurem-W, Zekrom and Kyurem-B, or both formes on the same team anyway.
  20. Kazo

    Kazo

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    228
    The game will not let you trade a pokemon in a new form.
  21. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,067
    Scizor faces an ohko from White Kyurem's Specs Draco Meteor after SR much of the time. Black Kyurem's Outrage 2hkos easily. CB Bullet Punch fails to ohko either form without SR.

    It really does seem like Black Kyurem got the short end of the stick here, since Fusion Flare is about 100x better than Fusion Bolt and Draco Meteor suits itself much better to the hit-and-run playstyle their shitty typing and movepool encourages. Black Kyurem is basically a stronger Haxorus with worse typing, but unlike White Kyurem, the higher attack doesn't really lend itself to any important KOs (skarm is still barely 3hko'd, ferrothorn is 3hko'd, etc).
  22. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,118
    If I were to run cb on black kyurem, I would use freeze shock on the last slot simply because it has no other viable option except sleep talk (don't even say ice beam or hp fire). Its uses are extremely situational, but if you do land it, it will hurt like crazy. Predict a ferro switching in, hope it doesn't have protect, and let loose. If ferro switches out, whatever comes in will probably die or take a truckload. If ferro stays in, it will die. Theorymon also provided a stall breaking example yesterday in a pinch situation.

    So yeah don't completely rule out freeze shock. It's not a good move, but it's not unviable.
  23. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,677
    How does B-Kyurem not automatically warrant ubers status?


    Freeze Shock is simply good as a filler. It has it's situations where it can boss but otherwise it won't work all to well unless you make a set revolving around it (and that'd be a waste). In situations like you said: when a team has no mon with protect OR a wall that resists ice it'd do a truckload and a half. Meaning that it'd be a pretty good filler just for the sheer threat it posses if nothing else.
  24. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,127
    Hopefully the movie 15 event will give them some extra moves.
    They do that with practically every event pokemon starring in a movie so I'm sure they will get something as well. Let's just hope they don't get Haze and Mist like Reshiram and Zekrom.

    I actually like the idea of a Power Herb mixed set. Black Kyurem shouldn't last many turns anyway, so by using Draco Meteor > Freeze Shock > Outrage you're still going to do massive damage.

    By the way, Magnzeone is 2HKO'd by Outrage even without a Choice Band if I'm not mistaken. So unless it runs scarf and Flash Cannon (lolwut) you can rule it out as a counter.
  25. KTVX

    KTVX

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    61
    Yeah, it's like a monstrous battering ram that has a wide arsenal, but once it uses one of its weapons it can't reuse it. It deploys all ordinance when needed, then dies or if possible retreats after doing some massive damage.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)