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Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    Ok a lot of people in this thread are talking about "counters". Very few ubers have counters to begin with, 2 more to add to that list isn't making that big of a difference. I mean, in generation four Skarmory was a fairly decent counter to Groudon, but with the generation shift, Groudon now uses Fire Punch a good portion of the time to deal with Ferrothorn, and Skarmory can no longer do much than pivot against Groudon.

    Mewtwo has no counters. You can theorymon all you want but this statement will remain true no matter what you come up with, really. It's movepool is so big and its stats so good really nothing can counter it. These two new Pokemon have really good stats as well, but this is mitigated slightly by a vunerability to every single hazard. Ubers has always been a hazard-dominated metagame.

    Now on to some *checks*:
    [​IMG]
    Jirachi
    Jirachi with a spread of 252 HP / 164 Def / 94 SpD and a SpD+ nature takes 37.9% - 44.6% from Black's Choice Band Outrage (assuming Jolly), and 42.1% - 49.8% from Fusion Bolt (sorry I'm not that up to date on moves, but Fusion Bolt is the 100 BP physical Electric attack, right? If not sorry, ignore this calc). If it gets Fire Punch, that does do 63.4% - 74.8% in neutral weather, but only 31.7% - 37.6% in Rain. Jirachi will take 55% - 64.9% from a Life Orb Fire Punch with neutral weather. Kyurem will certainly not enjoy paralysis, and is taking 44.5% - 52.7% from Iron Head with this spread. Now on to the calc you probably will not believe and go run yourself. Jirachi with this spread takes 41.6% - 49% from White's 100 BP Special Fire-type attack with Specs in the rain. Obviously Jirachi isn't taking this behomoth on in the sun, but in the rain its still a fairly solid check. Draco Meteor assuming this same spread and attacking Kyurem White does 43.1% - 50.7% for those that are curious (meaning Specs Blizzard won't 2HKO). Focus Blast does 49.3% - 58.2% assuming the same set for both, which has a decent potential for 2HKO, but I doubt anyone is going to be using Focus Miss when you have a 100 accuracy 100 BP Fire-type attack. Seeing as Kyogre is fairly dominant and we don't even know if Black will get Fire Punch, I'm calling Jirachi a solid non-gimmicky check for now, as this Jirachi is still fairly specially bulky as evidenced above.

    [​IMG]
    Steel Arceus
    Steel Arceus could probably be considered a check to Black, but 252 SpA LO Kyurem Black (120 base SpA) can do 45.9% - 54.1% to even 252/252+ Steel Arceus with Focus Blast, so thats a bit iffy. Arceus could obviously take the physical hits fine, as evidenced by its 20/20/20 boost over Jirachi, but its weakness to Fighting might be a nail in the coffin if the Kyurems decide to run it frequently. We'll see! I dont really feel like running all the calcs I did again since basically just take Jirachi's calcs and take some % off; Jirachi with 100/100/100 was surviving them so Arceus with 120/120/120 is gonna be fine. Just an item of curiosity, 252/252+ Steel Arceus takes 50% - 59% off 170 SpA 252 neutral LO 100 BP Special fire attack in neutral weather. Not enough to survive but perhaps enough to waste some PP off those 8 PP moves if needed.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion
    As mentioned earlier, Terrakion is a fairly decent check, and can do 85.9% - 101.8% to even 252/0 Kyurem Black (Kyurem would need 252/140 to even have a chance of surviving with SR up lol; unlikely). With a Scarf, Terrakion will always outspeed them, but obviously can't exactly switch directly in to them, and if they have a substitute up can't do anything. Plently of other Scarfers can revenge them too, but I'm gonna leave my post at these checks because I like Terrakion :3.

    As a closing comment, just Stealth Rocks + 1 layer of Toxic Spikes severely limit the staying power of the 2, chipping away 37.5% everytime they switch in and use an attack. Of course, some spikes on the field limits the usefulness of some of these checks, but they are just that: checks.
  2. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Rare as it may be, Metagross could possibly see increased use in Ubers as a check to Black Kyurem. Unless it gets Earthquake, Metagross resists or is neutral to all of its attacks and has stellar defense. It's also a nice Outrage absorber for the other physical dragons in general.

    Another thing. Now that we've seen that Fusion Flare/Fusion Bolt are level up moves for the formes, it is possible that they'd keep them if they were changed to the other Kyurem. If so, it would make things like White Kyurem with DM / FFlare / Ice Beam / FBolt possible on a mixed set. Not that it really needs it, but Fusion Bolt does hurt Kyogre and Ho-Oh without having to resort to Draco Meteor.
  3. Bossness

    Bossness

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    The Kyurem Formes level-up moves:

    646 White Kyurem :
    _Lv. 1 : Icy Wind
    _Lv. 1 : Dragon Rage
    _Lv. 8 : Imprison
    _Lv. 15 : Ancientpower
    _Lv. 22 : Ice Beam
    _Lv. 29 : Dragonbreath
    _Lv. 36 : Slash
    _Lv. 43 : Fusion Flare
    _Lv. 50 : Ice Burn
    _Lv. 57 : Dragon Pulse
    _Lv. 64 : Imprison
    _Lv. 71 : Endeavor
    _Lv. 78 : Blizzard
    _Lv. 85 : Outrage
    _Lv. 92 : Hyper Voice

    646 Black Kyurem :
    _Lv. 1 : Icy Wind
    _Lv. 1 : Dragon Rage
    _Lv. 8 : Imprison
    _Lv. 15 : Ancientpower
    _Lv. 22 : Ice Beam
    _Lv. 29 : Dragonbreath
    _Lv. 36 : Slash
    _Lv. 43 : Fusion Bolt
    _Lv. 50 : Freeze Shock
    _Lv. 57 : Dragon Pulse
    _Lv. 64 : Imprison
    _Lv. 71 : Endeavor
    _Lv. 78 : Blizzard
    _Lv. 85 : Outrage
    _Lv. 92 : Hyper Voice

    They got trolled hard. No level 100 moves? Oh cmon they are fused right? They still have the generators so Y U NO have Bolt Strike/Blue Flare? My guess is that since they are able to merge and seperate with a key item, both formes will have access to Fusion Flare/Bolt. I guess it makes sense - gamefreak doesnt like the idea of a dragon with both Blue Flare and Bolt Strike.
  4. Sun Sol

    Sun Sol

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    Or it's because Ice Burn and Freeze Shock are basically "iced" versions of Blue Flare and Bolt Strike, animation-wise.
  5. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    If BK gets Ice Punch tutor move i would like to try a sub/hone claws/Ice punch/Fusion bolt set. Has good coverage, no confusion/lock from Outrage and most of the dragons are weak to ice anyways.
  6. SuperHydreigon1996

    SuperHydreigon1996

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    Black Kyurem does learn Freeze Shock, which is a extremely powerful physical Ice STAB move. Shame that it has a charge turn though, but it could probably abuse it with a substitute set, but Troll Freak apparently thought it'd be funny to give it a charge turn.
  7. LPFan

    LPFan

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    Gosh, I can see these two being top 2 on usage if VGC 2013 will be everything except events next year...
  8. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    W T F
    So no phys Ice stab? (no charge bs move taken into account of course)
  9. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    well, looks like black kyurem is trash

    white power
  10. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Well atleast they learn roost. Offsett Stealth Rock damage, YAY?
  11. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    Well Mewtwo learns Recover and has similar bulk, and he doesn't use Recover all that often, so I doubt it will see much use lol. I mean, the higher HP and 10 more points in one defense stat is offset by the Ice typing (These obviously don't have the movepool or stats for stalltwo-esque sets so don't even...). Also I guess Jirachi is out as a check to White, being demolished by Earth Power :(. Even taking on Black is a bit iffy because if it runs a mix set with LO and max SpA it can do 50% - 58.9% to 252/94+ Jirachi with Earth Power, and it needs all the rest in defense to be able to tank Fusion Bolt :/... We'll see I guess, maybe it won't even run Earth Power or a mix set that often.
  12. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    We'll to wait for people to start trying these guys out before we make any real assumptions. At the start lots of people will be trying a heap of different sets. My main worry is that no-one will be creative and just use zekrom/reshiram's analysis sets.
  13. i Darky

    i Darky

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    I think Black/White Kyurem sets with a sub forcing switches will be great, especially mid-game. With pretty good coverage, it could completely shift momentum, and ppl will probably be caught off guard expecting a choiced set if played right, meaning if you only spam 1 move all game and use an item besides leftys/LO you can bluff a choiced set and wait for the perfect time to set up a sub. It works in OU well with reg. Kyurem pretty well, as it is a pokemon almost always assumed to be choiced
  14. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Yeah, sucks.
  15. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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    Good to have a final answer on that, at least. Ah well.
  16. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    But Mewtwo has moves it would rather use in place of Recover, and Psychic doesn't exactly give it the best resistances. Kyurem has the bulk to take weaker attacks, like support Groudon's EQ, and has Water/Electric resists. Fire resist in the rain. Black Kyurem could rock Outrage / Ice Beam / Fusion Bolt / Roost and be fine. If it get Superpower, that may even be preferable to FBolt.
  17. Vincent

    Vincent

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    The only "problem" (not really a problem at all) i see about those new forms is no Eletric/Fire STAB, since we are dealing with a Dragon/Ice pokemon (unless it must held an item like Griseous Orb that allow it to be in this new form and at the same time gives it a 1.5x boost on Eletric/Fire damage, depending what form we are puting into our team). But like i said, that is not really a problem because 170 base atk/sp atk is SO powerful that no STABs are really needed (maybe in some situations they ARE needed, like White Kyurem against Chansey, it would like to have both Fire STAB and Sun working together with Blue Flare to destroy the Pink Blob).

    Well, now i will compare the new forms with pokemons we already know:

    With 95 Base Speed and no Priority Move and no Speed Boost Move (except for Flame Charge i guess), i don't see any form being a Sweeper, but i can see they acting as Wallbreakers like Mixed Rayquaza, but they have advantagdes over the Green Serpent:

    MUCH more bulky (almost like Arceus and Giratina-O), MUCH more destruction power (almost Deoxys-A), and Ice STAB that allow it to OHKO Specially Defensive Groudon with Ice Beam in one hit, a feat that not even both Deoxys-A and Rayquaza can claim (as far as i know). Other thing is that Lugia can't safely switch against it, but can against Mixed Rayquaza, what means that those new forms are MUCH better in wallbreaking than Mixed Rayquaza, almost no wall can safely switch in against those.
  18. Hawkstar

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    OK, so Specs Kyurem White is an absolute killing machine. Pretty much everything in the whole tier is 1-2HKOed besides Heatran, Jirachi, and certain pink blobs. Even so, with Stealth Rocks up, all 4 of those are 2HKOed by Focus Blast. There is simply no safe switch-in to this beast, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this thing overtook Kyogre as the #1 most used Pokemon in the tier.
  19. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    Mewtwo can use recover fine. Recover + Three attacks is a set proven to be effective. Not to mention stalltwo.
  20. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Black kyurem got butchered beyond belief and I can't figure out what to do with it.

    White kyurem on the other hand got the better end of the short stick. I could see it being used in rain teams as a way to take down grass arceus as some rain teams struggle with that, and that is something neither palkia or kyogre can do. In sun teams, it does have competition with reshiram for its role but it's ability to take out ground arceus regardless of weather and having higher sa and speed might be worth something. This is all assuming scarf of course

    Then there is the ever so dangerous specs set, and roost + 3 attacks set it can use. Having access to recovery sets it apart from palkia as well.

    I don't see white kyurem being a reaaaaally big impact in the user metagame, but it sure sounds like it will leave a mark.
  21. gookie

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    It's completely unusable without power herb. Merit is not given to sets based on their difficulty of use and you do not fault sets for their simplicity. Choice specs latios is simple as fuck, but it's an amazing pokemon.

    Creativity is cool but simplicity and effectiveness takes priority, white kyurem just looks way better, it can use its most dominant attacking stat with potent dual STABs. Black Kyurem is only good on the virtue of its outrageous stat distribution.
  22. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I must disagree Poppy. Theorymon gave me a perfect example for Freeze Shock.

    You're using a Kyurem-B against a Stall team, that has Chansey, Giratina, and Skarmory up. Fusion Bolt is resisted by Giratina, Outrage is resisted by Skarmory. The best choice for you right now is Freeze Shock - it guarantees that something is going down, without thinking much. It's a good filler move, in my opinion.
  23. Death Phenomeno

    Death Phenomeno I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
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    Being gimmicky aside, how well/bad can the common Über Pokémon (except Kyogre) take a Power Herb + Freeze Shock? It's literally a one-shot, but something is probably going down and at least it's not Hyper Beam.

    Poor Black Kyurem (or 黒 Kyurem if you want to abbreviate) doesn't even get Ice Fang when the other 2 do.
  24. gookie

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    The conditions for that are absurd, you'd have to be facing a full on stall team without a solid ice resist or if you're in a position where everything is slower than you just fucking use outrage or something.

    I dunno, maybe I just don't see it. Also CB Freeze Shock... locking yourself into a charge up move with an SR weak pokemon is just suicidal, there's an aversion to SR weak choiced pokemon for a reason.
  25. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    I agree with Poppy. The fact is you'll need to use Freeze Shock in specific situations for it to work out. Maybe you can set up a substitute and then freeze shock ,but even then, you're trying to use Freeze Shock, you're not using it because it's useful or a better option then other moves in any way.

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