(Copyediting) Arceus (Update) (QC 3/3)

Superimp · Jul 7th, 2012, 11:14:38 AM

Credit goes to Fireburn for the original analysis and Poppy for the previous WIP update. Thanks!

STATUS REPORT:

Revamping my previous work on Wallceus's AC.

OVERALL NOTES:

NOTES WITH PREVIOUS STATUS REPORTS

UPDATE ANALYSIS NOTES:

...

--------------------------------------

ARCEUS
Original Analysis - Poppy's WIP Update

QC checks: shrang, barry4ever, Poppy [3/3]
GP checks: n/a [0/2]

...

Sneak Preview

**Furai** · Jul 7th, 2012, 12:24:33 PM

Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up.

**Nexus** · Jul 7th, 2012, 12:41:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up.

Already asked me if he could use it and I told him yes noob furry -__-

Superimp · Jul 7th, 2012, 1:18:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Nexus

Already asked me if he could use it and I told him yes noob furry -__-

It's fine Nexus ;). Though I did mention it was likely I would use Poppy's stuff in the first post, I haven't exactly placed his stuff in yet. In fact, the link Furai provided will prove most useful in this task as I won't have to look inside the Locked / Outdated Analyses section as much. Anyway, thank you both for letting me use this stuff as well as giving an easily accessible link. Really appreciate it.

NOTE: I'm assuming the QC checks will still hold true if I use Poppy's stuff? Or will it need new QC checks? Thanks.

**Furai** · Jul 7th, 2012, 1:28:50 PM

Unless BW got it something extrmely useful, or something else can now defeat it, I think they still hold. And fuck you Nexsux gtfo I didn't know he just posted a skeleton

Superimp · Jul 7th, 2012, 2:34:48 PM

Thanks Furai for the prompt response about QC checks! On that note, Poppy's stuff has now been added to the first post. Still, new information might be necessary because of the metagame shift (EX: Multiscale Lugia). Thus, QC checks are tentatively placed in the title. This will be changed if the Ubers QC team feels new QC checks are required.

If you feel something is missing from this analysis, please post!

EDIT: The QC checks were previously from:

- Poppy
- barry4ever
- shrang

Could you please reconfirm these/all QC checks so that this analysis can enter the "Copyediting" stage? If not, could someone else on the QC team check? Or are any major additions necessary? Thanks.

shrang · Jul 8th, 2012, 1:31:14 AM

This looks fine, just make sure you gear the analysis towards Black and White 2 by mentioning how it fares against the new threats. A couple of small things:

- Mention Landorus-T in Checks and Counters for ExtremeKiller. Yes, it is quite a flimsy check, but at full health, it can take a +1 ExtremeSpeed (thanks to Intimidate) and deal a truckload of damage with Choice Banded Superpower, much like Scizor can. Mention how Intimidate is helpful in dealing with ExtremeKiller in general.
- Mention Gengar as well for an ExtremeKiller check. Again, it is pretty flimsy, but you are immune to ExtremeSpeed and can deal quite a bit of damage with Focus Blast (if it hits). Choice Scarf Gengar outspeeds all ExtremeKiller variants, while SubDisable can, with some prediction, beat slower variants.

Otherwise, I'll stamp this again. QC APPROVED 1/3

**Theorymon** · Jul 8th, 2012, 1:52:51 AM

I think a CB set should be added, but only as the last set AND it has to have Trick. The set being

ExtremeSpeed
Trick
Earthquake/Shadow Claw
Swords Dance / Shadow Claw

revenging stuff with ExtremeSpeed is nice and all, but the real point of this set is that a lot of Arceus switch ins like Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory REALLY hate getting tricked a Choice Band (and of course teammates should reflect this). The tough part is coverage moves... if you use Swords Dance and Earthquake, it does fine but it 100% loses to Giratina-O, but if you use Shadow Claw, you won't get past Steels. If you value coverage more than sweeping power, then you can nix SD for Shadow Claw. So generally this isn't going to sweep as well as regular SD Arceus, but it deserves a set just because its a decent lure, and of course CB ExtremeSpeed can save you in a pinch against some offensive stuff (I'll get calcs later if you need that). Otherwise... Arceus didn't really change much!

Poppy · Jul 8th, 2012, 9:13:19 AM

emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check...
scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw

add in tmon's trick set, it's good

then you'll get my stamp

Superimp · Jul 8th, 2012, 9:55:12 PM

The analysis has now been updated with Theorymon's Choice Band set. Intimidate and the new threats of BW2 are mentioned. Landorus-T and Gengar remain controversial as checks to Extreme Killer, see Checks/Counters section in the first post for more details. This should hopefully be the last of any significant changes.

Could QC please check the Choice Band set and the Checks/Counters in detail? Thanks.

EDIT: Could someone post after Post #12 please, I would rather not double post. Thanks.

Mr.lol · Jul 8th, 2012, 10:18:39 PM

Quote:

Shadow Force to be deslashed and put into AC? Or should it stay slashed? Right now, it's slashed. Shadow Force DOES have obscene power though... It's still used a fair bit according to Moveset Analysis.

Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.

Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...

EDIT: TO THE POST BELOW MINE, two Shadow Claws already have greater power then a Shadow Force, so really those calcs are slightly unimportant. The only important one is the wobba one, the others, Arceus can just shadow claw twice and not risk hitting Chansey instead. Lugia sets up reflect anyway on the turn it dissapears (lol).

EDIT2: DIRECTED TO THE EDIT OF THE POST BELOW MINE, well after Gira-a gets that one turn of leftovers its no longer always OHKOed :(, and like I said Lugia can Reflect. So those calcs are a bit iffy too :(.

Also

Quote:

Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers.

BEST EUPHEMISM ever <- do not read with Sardonic tone, that literally was THE BEST EUPHEMISM EVER :D. In other words, this is a compliment, not an offensive statement.

EDIT 3: It won't even always OHKO Gira-a after lefties and rocks all the time. That and the chances of it landing are slim.
Also a reply to you :P

...

EDIT 4: Yeah the comments are fine now :P. EDIT WARS are fun, although I think people are going wth is this lol. Thanks for the color info :D, yes I was R-spin.

Superimp · Jul 8th, 2012, 10:58:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol

Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.

Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...

What you have said about Shadow Force is certainly quite true. The power is still important though as it alleviates Wobbuffet concerns and stands a respectable chance at OHKOing Giratina and Lugia after SR with Life Orb, SD, and Adamant. He also easily OHKOs Physically Defensive Giratina-O with Life Orb (Adamant guaranteed, Jolly 50%). Actually, Shadow Force might be good enough due to all these points and yours to stay as a slash despite its charge turn. Thanks for your points Mr.lol, I'll be sure to use them for Shadow Force.

SS Kabutops and Omastar are certainly checks. That's why they were already mentioned. However, what you have given definitely shows that they are checks.

Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. But then again, Gengar could be annoying to Extreme Killer, however flimsy (and rare) it may be. QC? Should Gengar be seriously mentioned? Thanks.

EDIT: Because they are possible OHKOs, they are important. After a Swords Dance, the turns that come after do matter. For instance, using Shadow Claw twice leaves you vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and assorted. Shadow Force allows you to avoid those and possibly OHKO Giratina, Lugia, etc. If they switch, Shadow Force will damage whatever comes in. However, it helps to get rid of any Normal-type Pokemon if applicable like you said before beginning a serious sweep.

Concerning Shadow Force (without Power Herb), it does better against Giratina, not Lugia. As you are fully aware of, Lugia has Reflect and also Multiscale.

EDIT 2:

Reply to Mr.lol

If I could leave you with one thought after you read the reply, it's this:

...

EDIT 3:

You are correct. Like you and I said, the OHKO is a possibility, a chance. It is still respectable though. For your case of SR and Leftovers, there is a 31.25% chance of Arceus OHKOing Giratina (Great Wall) with a +2 Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force (Check the first damage calculation of Edit 2 for source). This does not include chance of crits.

I probably should have made the first damage calculation more explicit in referring to SR and Leftovers. Remember, Giratina switching into SR and two turns of Leftovers is essentially the same as switching into no SR.

Again, it is important to note that other stuff like Spikes, Toxic Spikes (Which you mentioned), previous damage on Giratina, etc. significantly increases the chance of an OHKO. For instance, SR and 1 layer of Spikes essentially guarantees an OHKO. Shadow Force is a fine option against Giratina (and others) when used properly.

About your log, it does not seem to showcase Shadow Force in its best light. In fact, it doesn't even show Extreme Killer in a good light. The individual who used Extreme Killer seemed to use Him very early in the game, clearly evident by the turn count. When facing a team as defensive as that, it might prove useful to weaken it a bit before sending out Extreme Killer. I assume you were R-spin?

If you want colors, just use this:
[COLOR=Insert Hex Color]Insert Text Here[/COLOR].

To be honest, I just copied one of my many test logs (Logs which are testing Shadow Force's performance against Giratina and vice versa) and pasted it here. Seemed to work fine for me.

NOTE: I'll be sure to use the points gathered during this discussion for Shadow Force! Right now, I'm leaning towards keeping it as a second slash, but with lots of comments in AC about its advantages/disadvantages over Shadow Claw. Thanks.

EDIT 4: Check the first post of this thread for my planned comments on Shadow Force. Are these suitable?

**Furai** · Jul 11th, 2012, 5:01:51 PM

Choice Band set looks good.

Checks and Counters looks good, put a mention of Bronzong there. I am SO iffy on Sableye and Gengar, they are a total fail in Ubers. If you do mention them, be sure to mention they suck, as much as I love Sableye.

Poppy · Jul 12th, 2012, 5:24:39 AM

scarf gengar is a better check than most might think, scarf, let alone destiny bond is quite a rare sight. although, traditionally we don't rely on 'surprise' factor as a measure of effectiveness so i want more experienced members of QC to weigh in here; however, i am leaning towards mentioning this as a 'decent check, but if arceus doesn't attack you've most likely lost.'

bronzong can only toxic so just make sure you say that (i don't even know why you would mention it though, since forretress basically does the same thing)

i would actually put fighting arceus at number 6, with max special attack it has a good chance at OHKOing most extremekiller, whereas scarf dialga / heatran need substantial residual, omastar and kabutops need less residual but are rain reliant and omastar can only use hydro pump.

firecape · Jul 12th, 2012, 1:51:11 PM

I'm hesitant about calling Skarmory a counter. I mean, it can phase it out, but it doesn't really pose an immediate threat. Brave Bird takes like 1/4th of Arceus's HP, while +2 ExtremeSpeed does 35.92 - 41.91% to SpD Skarmory. +6 ExtremeSpeed does 71.25 - 84.13%. I mean its a very solid check, but if Extreme Killer is the last mon you can't really count on Skarmory unless you are running something weird like Toxic Skarmory or have Toxic Spikes support and you can phase it out after/if it used a Lum Berry.

Superimp · Jul 12th, 2012, 3:14:04 PM

Here are my replies to Furai, Poppy, and firecape.

Replying to Furai:

...

Replying to Poppy:

...

Replying to firecape:

...

I’ll start with the responses of some QC members from Poppy’s WIP thread concerning Skarmory:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Skarmory should be #1, IMO. Toxic / Spikes / Whirlwind shut down Arceus completely, even if it's a last mon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

Agreed that outside of a silly Substitute last Pokemon situation Skarmory will win almost 100% of the time. Except sun-boosted Overheat which has a 68.75% chance to OHKO without SR. However, neutral weather Overheat has no chance at OHKOing Skarmory, even with SR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat trickroom

Skarmory is easily the best counter there is. Overheat with LO will 2HKO it at worst though outside of rain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat barry4ever

Skarmory should definitely be the number one check since it can take on any Arceus even those with Overheat (not sun). Mention that in this case Toxic is definitely necessary otherwise Arceus will just get to +6 and kill you anyway.
Simple Roost and Whirlwind will stop Arceus.

Their responses seem pretty solid to me. It should be self-explanatory.

For Brave Bird, it's a third slash on Skarmory's Uber analysis. It is more likely Skarmory will phaze, Toxic, or Roost before Brave Birding (If applicable).

Your damage calculations assume Adamant Life Orb. With different items/natures, it's going to do much less. This is especially true with Lum Berry.

You have an excellent point on "running something weird." Despite the fact Toxic is the first slash on Skarmory's Uber analysis, its usage is not the best. Toxic was used on 14.0% of all Skarmory according to last month. On May, it was used on 22.6% of all Skarmory.

Like you said, Skarmory may have problems if Arceus is the last Pokemon and you don't have Toxic. When I write up the Skarmory part, I'll be sure to put a mention that Toxic is necessary to defeat Arceus when He is the last Pokemon. Should be no problem.

Thanks for the feedback firecape.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll post my test results for Checks / Counters later after I finished testing Physically Defensive Ho-Oh and CB Metagross. Are there any more possible "checks" you would like me to test (Preferably something which won't waste my time)? Thanks.

shrang · Jul 13th, 2012, 9:04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check...
scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw

add in tmon's trick set, it's good

then you'll get my stamp

Just saying, it's actually not that easy to get Gengar to Disable ExtremeSpeed. Once Arceus breaks the Sub with Shadow Claw, the best move on Gengar is actually to Sub again. Basically, you follow this flow-chart:

1) Gengar uses Sub

V

2) Arceus uses Shadow Claw, Sub broken -> Use Disable to Disable Shadow Claw

V

3) Gengar uses Sub -> Arceus uses Shadow Claw -> Go back to stage 2

V

Arceus uses ExtremeSpeed -> Spam Focus Blast

You generally have 4-5 Substitutes you can actually make against a slow Arceus. That's 4-5 chances you'll get the mind-game of Disable vs Substitute correct. Those aren't bad odds, IMO.

Poppy · Jul 15th, 2012, 10:57:13 AM

i'm probably a bit biased against bronzong because i think it's worthless but i do realize its immunity to EQ makes it a better check than forretress

skarm often carries toxic in ubers so it's definitely more of a counter than a check

this gengar argument is ridiculous and i'm satsified with leaving gengar as some sort situational check or just not mentioning it at all

the fighting arceus set i'm actually getting at is 240 hp 252 spa 16 spe modest which i used as my extremekiller check for a few teams. so you can just mention that fighting areus is a good check but needs bulk and maximum special attack to be reliable.

i do take your point about obscure checks so i do think it should stop here

don't mention sableye it's shit

forretress should have pain split as a primary option but that's another story entirely (another update for me to get onto)

edit: you need to pair physically defensive ho-oh with gira-o/a or ghost arceus with roar or WoW to beat arceus. that ho-oh's main purpose is to take one extremespeed and attempt to burn it then switch out to something else that can handle burned arceus.

barry4ever · Jul 19th, 2012, 7:54:39 AM

I guess its fine if you mention Gengar just stick it at the bottom of the pile with Landorus-T and co, to be used as a last resort check if you have no other alternative (seriously) No to CB Metagross. Seriously, why are we mentioning these stuff anyway. Its not like they ever get used in Ubers anyway. Doesnt make a difference I guess. This analysis looks good otherwise, the transition for Arceus to b/w2 was pretty smooth i guess.

QC Approved 2/3

Superimp · Jul 26th, 2012, 3:59:28 PM

Here are my replies to shrang, Poppy, and barry4ever.

Replying to shrang:

...

Replying to Poppy:

...

Replying to barry4ever:

...

---------------------------------------------------

Since the Checks / Counters section seems to be fine for Extreme Killer now, I’ll just post any test results on request.

Is this analysis update ready for the last QC check? Or is there some last issue which has to be addressed? An example might include the Checks / Counters for Wallceus (Personally, I think it needs a touch more revamp. Thoughts?). Thanks.

**Furai** · Apr 1st, 2013, 8:49:34 AM

Fire Blast > Overheat, AC of E-Killer

This is super serious and not related in any way to April Fools, js.

EDIT: Sableye should be mentioned as a counter to non-Fire Blast Extreme Killer and Choice Band Arceus if it gets tricked on

MatchMaster · Apr 3rd, 2013, 5:26:08 PM

If no one minds, I'd like to suggest at least a mention of an EV spread of 49 HP / 252 Atk / 207 Spe with an Adamant Nature. This allows Arceus to just outpace Genesect, who you can't kill with ExtremeSpeed even if you're at +2 and Genesect is running a hasty nature, and Genesect is quite popular.

jackm · Apr 3rd, 2013, 8:38:40 PM

Well, Genesect is usually a scarf variant, which means Arceus has no hope of outrunning it. Besides, even scarf Genesect doesn't pose a massive threat to EK on its own.

Superimp · Apr 12th, 2013, 4:55:35 PM

Here are my replies to Poppy, MatchMaster, and Furai.

Replying to Poppy:

Quote:

CONTEXT: Poppy originally had a post that contained the final QC check as well as a quick comment about how mentioning Physically Defensive Ho-Oh was optional based on the length of the C&C section for Extreme Killer. However, he then neared his 2000th post...

Thanks for the QC check Poppy! As of the moment, I’m probably not going to specifically mention Physically Defensive Ho-Oh as the C&C section is huge enough as it is.

Replying to MatchMaster:

As jackm previously mentioned (Thanks for that by the way), the Genesect Speed benchmark isn’t really that notable given that Genesect is usually Choice Scarf (~77% usage as of March). However, you’re more then welcome to invest enough Speed to outspeed non-Choice Scarf Genesect if that is what you desire. In fact, such Speed investment could prove useful against Choice Band Genesect (~4% usage as of March) given that an unboosted Explosion can deal considerable damage:

Quote:

252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Explosion vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 329-388 (74.6 - 87.98%)

Hope this addresses your suggestion MatchMaster.

Replying to Furai:

OVERHEAT VS FIRE BLAST: WHICH IS BETTER?

To answer your concerns Furai over Overheat versus Fire Blast, I will be analyzing the relevant matchups where Overheat / Fire Blast can have a real and tangible effect against possible answers. All damage calculations have been obtained from Honkalculator 4000 unless manual calculation was required (i.e. calculations involving -2 SpA drops from Overheat, combination of attacks, etc.). Your Sableye concerns have been addressed in its respective section.

NOTE: Silk Scarf (or any item besides Life Orb like Lum Berry or Leftovers) Fire Blast assumes a neutral SpA nature. Silk Scarf (or any item including Life Orb) Overheat assumes a SpA lowering nature.

1. SKARMORY

EXCLUSIVE TO NON-RAIN: Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat

Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Skarmory is 252 HP / 4 Def+ / 252 SpD (and Sturdy not active):

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 411-484 (123.05 - 144.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 273-322 (81.73 - 96.4%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch (18.75% chance to OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers)

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 351-413 (105.08 - 123.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 234-276 (70.05 - 82.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in rain: 117-138 (35.02 - 41.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 300-354 (89.82 - 105.98%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed after SR on the switch; 75% chance to OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers)

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 200-236 (59.88 - 70.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory in sun: 316-372 (94.61 - 111.37%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed after SR + one turn of Leftovers)

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 210-248 (62.87 - 74.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Provided the weather is not rain, Skarmory is unable to safely switch into these coverage moves (although non-rain/sun Silk Scarf Overheat requires SR for a guaranteed 2HKO). However, such an attempt is rather prone to prediction given that an improperly timed attack will result in the loss of surprise, mediocre damage outside Skarmory and friends, and obviously no Swords Dance boost. Therefore, it is much important to hit Skarmory with these coverage moves after it has safely switched in (i.e. switches on Swords Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw, and assorted).

Unless your opponent has prior knowledge on your set, is attempting to take advantage of a possible double switch, or has godly prediction skills, it is highly unlikely that a safely switched in Skarmory will be switched out given that Overheat / Fire Blast has ~1% usage. Thus, whatever option does the most damage (ideally an OHKO) to a safely switched in Skarmory will generally be the superior choice.

Life Orb Overheat is probably the best option against Skarmory thanks to its damage and 90% accuracy. A sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat will OHKO even the bulkiest of Skarmory. Although non-rain/sun Life Orb Overheat has only an 18.75% chance to OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers, it is guaranteed should Skarmory switch into ExtremeSpeed after SR + one turn of Leftovers, or 93.75% should it switch into Shadow Claw after SR + one turn of Leftovers.

The next best option is Life Orb Fire Blast. Similarly to sun-boosted Overheat, Skarmory is easily OHKOed under sun (Though it only has a 75% chance to OHKO 252 HP / 252 SpD+ variants). However, although Fire Blast has more consistency in damage (Which helps out in prediction, though this is mitigated by the fact that these moves are ideally used when Skarmory is safely switched in), it has 85% accuracy and is noticeably weaker. For instance, non-rain/sun Life Orb Fire Blast is unable to OHKO after SR. If Skarmory previously switched into ExtremeSpeed after SR, it is 64.06%; if it previously switched into Shadow Claw after SR, it is 4.30%. Additionally, Life Orb Fire Blast is unable to 2HKO Skarmory under rain, which really hurts it viability.

Silk Scarf Fire Blast is considerably weaker than Life Orb Fire Blast (and Overheat), only having a 75% chance to OHKO after sun + SR + one turn of Leftovers. A non-rain/sun Silk Scarf Fire Blast is even weaker, unable to defeat Skarmory even after ExtremeSpeed + Fire Blast + SR + one turn of Leftovers. However, the consistent damage makes it the superior option over Silk Scarf Overheat. Although Silk Scarf Overheat does more damage (Making it better under sun as it will always OHKO after SR + one turn of Leftovers), has slightly more accuracy, and lacks the bulk loss, its damage boost isn’t really that great; non-rain/sun Silk Scarf Overheat has a pathetic 0.78% chance to defeat Skarmory after ExtremeSpeed + Overheat + SR + one turn of Leftovers. In this scenario, Skarmory could easily Roost off the full-powered Overheat –> this is impossible if Arceus carries Fire Blast.

2. SABLEYE (its special bulk is paltry; even with 252 HP / 4 SpD EVs, its special bulk is around Froslass level)

EXCLUSIVE TO SUN: Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Fire Blast >>> Silk Scarf Overheat

Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Sableye is 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD:

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 291-343 (95.72 - 112.82%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed after SR)

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 250-294 (82.23 - 96.71%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 214-252 (70.39 - 82.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 142-168 (46.71 - 55.26%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO (99.61%* chance to 2HKO after SR)

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye in sun: 224-264 (73.68 - 86.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Unless Sableye uses Recover…)

* = not using Honkalculator -> manual

Unlike Skarmory’s scenario, it is incredibly important to hit Sableye on the switch with a sun-boosted Overheat / Fire Blast, given that a possible burn from a safely switched in Sableye isn’t exactly great (AKA prediction is mandatory). Thankfully, this isn’t too difficult as not only are these coverage moves extremely rare (~1% usage), but unlike Skarmory, many players believe an unboosted Extreme Killer is unable to OHKO Sableye on the switch.

As a result, it is critical that Sableye is taken out in one shot; if it is left alive, it can still switch out, attempt to Will-O-Wisp, or try its luck using Recover. Therefore, Life Orb Overheat is by far the best option against Sableye due to its 75% chance of OHKOing without any hazards (Guaranteed after SR) as well as its 90% accuracy. The next best option is Life Orb Fire Blast, as it has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing after SR and trades accuracy (85% vs. 90%) for consistent damage (Not that it matters when Life Orb Overheat outright OHKOes Sableye). Fire Blast also 2HKOes Sableye under “neutral” conditions (i.e. no weather, hail, or sandstorm) guaranteed, but Sableye is obviously left alive to do something (switch, Will-O-Wisp, etc.).

Silk Scarf Fire Blast isn’t really that great given its inability to OHKO Sableye after SR as well as the loss in bulk, though it will (hopefully) 2HKO. Silk Scarf Overheat on the other hand is horrible given that Sableye actually wins (i.e. survives the switch after SR, uses Recover, and then survives the -2).

NOTE: Physically defensive Sableye isn't exactly a counter to Extreme Killer given that it will always lose to standard Lum Berry Earthquake variants guaranteed after SR (Although it can still leave a parting gift in the form of a 56.25% chance burn); others like Skarmory, Wallceus, Giratina, and Lugia at least have phazing moves to guarantee Arceus’s exit unless He is the last Pokemon. A Will-O-Wisp miss is also devastating given Sableye’s average physical bulk (Around Garchomp level despite max investment), especially since a +2 Life Orb Earthquake has a 31.25% chance of OHKOing outright after SR and a turn of Leftovers. And of course, sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat incinerates Sableye thanks to its paltry special bulk.

Nevertheless, Sableye is still a very good answer to Extreme Killer; it is one of the stronger checks for sure. For the time being, it will be placed as either #1, #2, or #3 in the checks list, though I’m currently leaning towards #2 (i.e. in between Terrakion and Arceus-Ghost).

NOTE 2: Likewise, Sableye is not a counter to Bandceus given that getting Tricked a Choice Band (like you said) is highly undesirable. Otherwise, Sableye can easily tank Bandceus’s unboosted attacks, and thus will be grouped with the “Big Four” (Skarmory, Wallceus, Giratina, and Lugia) when detailing their performance against Bandceus.

3. BRONZONG (Levitate of course)

EXCLUSIVE TO NON-RAIN: Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat

Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Bronzong is 252 HP / 4 SpD:

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 364-429 (107.69 - 126.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 242-286 (71.59 - 84.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 309-367 (91.42 - 108.57%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (87.5% chance to OHKO after SR on the switch)

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 205-244 (60.65 - 72.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in rain: 101-122 (29.88 - 36.09%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 266-314 (78.69 - 92.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 178-210 (52.66 - 62.13%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed after SR on the switch)

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong in sun: 280-330 (82.84 - 97.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (25% chance to OHKO after SR on the switch)

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 186-220 (55.02 - 65.08%) – unable to 2HKO after SR

Obviously, none of these options really work under rain. However, “neutral” conditions (i.e. no weather, hail, or sandstorm) will work, though sun is obviously preferable. As always, any option that OHKOes a safely switched in Bronzong will be the best option due to minimizing prediction (~1% usage); 2HKOes will be subject to prediction for obvious reasons.

Life Orb Overheat is the best option as it always OHKOes Bronzong under sun, can still 2HKO on the switch under “neutral” conditions (Though this will be reliant on prediction given that it doesn’t OHKO), and has 90% accuracy. Life Orb Fire Blast can work with its more consistent damage (Which makes it better under 2HKOing scenarios like non-sun) but has 85% accuracy and is shakier in damage when considering sun.

Silk Scarf Fire Blast is a bit weak even under sun, but at least 2HKOes under “neutral” conditions; Silk Scarf Overheat actually fails to 2HKO Bronzong after SR during this scenario!

4. FERROTHORN

Life Orb Fire Blast > Life Orb Overheat > Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat

Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Ferrothorn is 252 HP / 208 SpD+:

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 478-567 (135.79 - 161.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 322-380 (91.47 - 107.95%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO (81.25% to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes + one turn of Leftovers; guaranteed after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch)

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 156-187 (44.31 - 53.12%) -- 0.39% to 2HKO (23.44% to 2HKO after Stealth Rock on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes + one turn of Leftovers; 79.69%* chance to 2HKO after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch)

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 556-655 (157.95 - 186.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 369-437 (104.82 - 124.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 182-218 (51.7 - 61.93%) – unable to 2HKO after SR on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 408-484 (115.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 272-324 (77.27 - 92.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (31.25% chance to OHKO after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch)

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 136-160 (38.63 - 45.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in sun: 428-504 (121.59 - 143.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.68 - 95.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch OR after 1 Layer of Spikes + one turn of Leftovers; 56.25% chance to OHKO after 1 Layer of Spikes on the switch).

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 140-168 (39.77 - 47.72%) – lol

* = not using Honkalculator -> manual

Obviously, Ferrothorn hates Fire-type attacks under sun. Arceus can easily do whatever He wants as it switches in (Swords Dance, ExtremeSpeed, etc.), and then easily OHKO (~1% usage). He could even OHKO on the switch, though this requires some prediction. However, rain is a different story as Arceus is unable to OHKO, thus increasing the importance of prediction. Thus, whatever option can consistently deal the most damage under rain while still performing great under other weather will be the superior choice.

Life Orb Fire Blast is the best option given that it has sufficient power, deals consistent damage (Which matters under rain for prediction), and can possibly 2HKO Ferrothorn under rain after a lot of prior damage (To be honest, this is still a bit iffy). Life Orb Overheat is the next best option with its 90% accuracy and greater initial damage, though it sucks under rain (Of course, the subsequent -2 SpA drop can be taken advantage of through prediction, especially as rain Life Orb Overheat is unable to 2HKO after SR).

Silk Scarf Fire Blast can work despite the bulk loss, but has issues with damage under non-sun conditions. Silk Scarf Overheat is similar with slightly improved accuracy, but is even more pathetic under rain and has the -2 SpA drop problem.

5. FORRETRESS

Life Orb Fire Blast = Silk Scarf Fire Blast >>> Life Orb Overheat > Silk Scarf Overheat

Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Forretress is 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD+ (As otherwise it gets massacred):

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 702-827 (198.3 - 233.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 468-551 (132.2 - 155.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 592-700 (167.23 - 197.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 396-468 (111.86 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 196-232 (55.36 - 65.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 811-957 (229.09 - 270.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 541-640 (152.82 - 180.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 265-317 (74.85 - 89.54%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock on the switch

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in sun: 624-736 (176.27 - 207.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 416-492 (117.51 - 138.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 204-244 (57.62 - 68.92%) –66.80% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock on the switch (10.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock + two turns of Leftovers)

Fire Blast will always OHKO Forretress under sun / weatherless / hail / sandstorm, while still holding the ability to 2HKO under rain. Choose between Life Orb recoil and reduced bulk; it doesn’t matter.

Overheat will always OHKO Forretress under sun / weatherless / hail / sandstorm, but trades consistent damage (Which matters under rain for prediction given that it can’t reliably OHKO) for a bit more accuracy. To make matters worse, Silk Scarf Overheat has trouble 2HKOing Forretress under rain!

6. CHOICE BAND SCIZOR (Make sure to read the note at the end)*

Life Orb Overheat > Life Orb Fire Blast >>> Silk Scarf Fire Blast > Silk Scarf Overheat

Here are the relevant calculations with the assumption that Scizor is 200 HP / 252 SpD:

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 754-889 (227.79 - 268.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 499-593 (150.75 - 179.15%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 250-296 (75.52 - 89.42%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 645-764 (194.86 - 230.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 432-510 (130.51 - 154.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Life Orb Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 213-255 (64.35 - 77.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 552-652 (166.76 - 196.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 368-436 (111.17 - 131.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Arceus-Normal Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 180-216 (54.38 - 65.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in sun: 580-684 (175.22 - 206.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 384-456 (116.01 - 137.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0- SpA Arceus-Normal Overheat vs. 200 HP / 252 SpD Scizor in rain: 192-228 (58 - 68.88%) – 56.64% to 2HKO (Guaranteed after SR)

Choice Band Scizor is unable to safely switch into ANY Fire-type coverage move regardless of weather (Silk Scarf Overheat under rain requires SR though). However, this involves prediction (especially with Silk Scarf Overheat under rain), so it is much safer to deal with Scizor after it has safely switched in.

Once Scizor is safely switched in, its method of “checking” Arceus is to tank a hit and then retaliate with Superpower. Therefore, whatever option is capable of OHKOing Scizor outright will be the superior choice.

Obviously, Life Orb Overheat is the best option as it deals the most damage and has 90% accuracy. Life Orb Fire Blast is next, though it is unable to OHKO under rain after SR (You’re going to need some prior damage like an ExtremeSpeed on the switch) and has 85% accuracy.

Silk Scarf Fire Blast / Overheat is unable to OHKO Scizor under rain (Which means it gets to Superpower AKA fulfilling its purpose). However, Silk Scarf is probably better despite the bulk/accuracy loss given that it will at least always 2HKO; Overheat is not guaranteed unless there is SR. It is also prone to prediction after it has been used once due to the -2 SpA drop.

NOTE: Choice Band Scizor is a really flimsy check to Extreme Killer given that just like Choice Band Landorus-T, it is easy to wear down (No reliable recovery sucks). Unless it is perfectly conserved, it is highly unlikely that it will be able to tank a boosted coverage move. In fact, a +2 Life Orb Earthquake has a 31.25% chance to OHKO without any hazards. During testing, Scizor wasn’t very reliable; prior damage often arose due to entry hazards as well as answering miscellaneous threats (i.e. Lati@s).

Right now, I’m leaning towards no specific mention for Choice Band Scizor given its shakiness and that I’m trying to keep the C&C section readable.

SUMMARY:

If you’re using Life Orb, go with Overheat. Best way of taking down Skarmory, Sableye, Bronzong, and Choice Band Scizor. It also has 90% accuracy. However, if you’re more concerned with Ferrothorn and Forretress, Fire Blast is better as it does consistent damage under rain (However, Ferrothorn is still iffy and 85% accuracy could be better).
If you’re using Silk Scarf (or any item besides Life Orb like Lum Berry or Leftovers), go with Fire Blast. Make sure to have a neutral SpA nature too (Even though it will lower bulk).
Overheat without Life Orb sucks (at least relative to the other options). A neutral SpA nature might work, but the damage is roughly equivalent to Life Orb Fire Blast, just minus some bulk and the consistent damage.

-------------------------------

I’ll see what I can do about a specific mention for Fire Blast given its increased utility against threats such as Ferrothorn and Forretress. This has been somewhat addressed by previous notes, but mentioning Fire Blast probably won’t hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Update Analysis Notes

- Overheat is mentioned as being useful against Skarmory, but not (as useful) against Forretress and Ferrothorn

Item clarifications (i.e. Life Orb works best with Overheat, any other item works best with Fire Blast, etc.) will be mentioned if length permits.

Thanks for your suggestion Furai!

shrang · Apr 12th, 2013, 9:20:09 PM

Quote:

Choice Band Landorus-T (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move (ExtremeSpeed still hurts though; it can possibly 2HKO after SR). Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.

Just a tiny note, I know that you've addressed Landorus-T before, but this bit needs a small correction. Assuming Stealth Rock is up on both sides, Landorus-T will always survive an Adamant +1 LO ExtremeSpeed at full health (minus SR), while Superpower will always OHKO 240 HP Extreme Killer. Superpower does 90.25% - 106.35%, while +1 LO ES does 74.40% - 87.47% (No chance at all to OHKO Landorus-T at full health with one round of SR). It's an extremely shaky counter, sure, but you do have that one-off stop to Extreme Killer if you're at full health.

Just another more important thing. I know and appreciate the fact that you take great pride and detail in your analyses, but try to make sure this analysis is done in shorter time than Latias's analysis (much shorter). Don't bother going into detail that is unnecessary. We don't want to wait 6 months for an analysis (albeit comprehensive) again, please!

Jul 7th, 2012, 1:28:50 PM	#5
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,094	Unless BW got it something extrmely useful, or something else can now defeat it, I think they still hold. And fuck you Nexsux gtfo I didn't know he just posted a skeleton __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)

Jul 7th, 2012, 2:34:48 PM	#6
Superimp Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 59	Massive Update to First Post Thanks Furai for the prompt response about QC checks! On that note, Poppy's stuff has now been added to the first post. Still, new information might be necessary because of the metagame shift (EX: Multiscale Lugia). Thus, QC checks are tentatively placed in the title. This will be changed if the Ubers QC team feels new QC checks are required. If you feel something is missing from this analysis, please post! EDIT: The QC checks were previously from: - Poppy - barry4ever - shrang Could you please reconfirm these/all QC checks so that this analysis can enter the "Copyediting" stage? If not, could someone else on the QC team check? Or are any major additions necessary? Thanks. __________________ They can because they think they can. - Virgil Last edited by Superimp; Jul 7th, 2012 at 10:54:52 PM.

Jul 8th, 2012, 9:13:19 AM	#9
Poppy SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,421 brisbane	emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check... scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw add in tmon's trick set, it's good then you'll get my stamp __________________ erotically erudite

Jul 8th, 2012, 9:55:12 PM	#10
Superimp Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 59	The analysis has now been updated with Theorymon's Choice Band set. Intimidate and the new threats of BW2 are mentioned. Landorus-T and Gengar remain controversial as checks to Extreme Killer, see Checks/Counters section in the first post for more details. This should hopefully be the last of any significant changes. Could QC please check the Choice Band set and the Checks/Counters in detail? Thanks. EDIT: Could someone post after Post #12 please, I would rather not double post. Thanks. __________________ They can because they think they can. - Virgil Last edited by Superimp; Jul 11th, 2012 at 3:47:34 PM. Reason: Question.

Jul 11th, 2012, 5:01:51 PM	#13
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,094	Choice Band set looks good. Checks and Counters looks good, put a mention of Bronzong there. I am SO iffy on Sableye and Gengar, they are a total fail in Ubers. If you do mention them, be sure to mention they suck, as much as I love Sableye. __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)

Jul 7th, 2012, 12:24:33 PM	#2
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,094	Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up. __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)

Jul 12th, 2012, 5:24:39 AM	#14
Poppy SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,421 brisbane	scarf gengar is a better check than most might think, scarf, let alone destiny bond is quite a rare sight. although, traditionally we don't rely on 'surprise' factor as a measure of effectiveness so i want more experienced members of QC to weigh in here; however, i am leaning towards mentioning this as a 'decent check, but if arceus doesn't attack you've most likely lost.' bronzong can only toxic so just make sure you say that (i don't even know why you would mention it though, since forretress basically does the same thing) i would actually put fighting arceus at number 6, with max special attack it has a good chance at OHKOing most extremekiller, whereas scarf dialga / heatran need substantial residual, omastar and kabutops need less residual but are rain reliant and omastar can only use hydro pump. __________________ erotically erudite

Jul 12th, 2012, 1:51:11 PM	#15
firecape This is the end... Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,048 This storys old, but it goes on and on until we disappear	I'm hesitant about calling Skarmory a counter. I mean, it can phase it out, but it doesn't really pose an immediate threat. Brave Bird takes like 1/4th of Arceus's HP, while +2 ExtremeSpeed does 35.92 - 41.91% to SpD Skarmory. +6 ExtremeSpeed does 71.25 - 84.13%. I mean its a very solid check, but if Extreme Killer is the last mon you can't really count on Skarmory unless you are running something weird like Toxic Skarmory or have Toxic Spikes support and you can phase it out after/if it used a Lum Berry. __________________ I DONT DESERVE YOU

Jul 15th, 2012, 10:57:13 AM	#18
Poppy SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,421 brisbane	i'm probably a bit biased against bronzong because i think it's worthless but i do realize its immunity to EQ makes it a better check than forretress skarm often carries toxic in ubers so it's definitely more of a counter than a check this gengar argument is ridiculous and i'm satsified with leaving gengar as some sort situational check or just not mentioning it at all the fighting arceus set i'm actually getting at is 240 hp 252 spa 16 spe modest which i used as my extremekiller check for a few teams. so you can just mention that fighting areus is a good check but needs bulk and maximum special attack to be reliable. i do take your point about obscure checks so i do think it should stop here don't mention sableye it's shit forretress should have pain split as a primary option but that's another story entirely (another update for me to get onto) edit: you need to pair physically defensive ho-oh with gira-o/a or ghost arceus with roar or WoW to beat arceus. that ho-oh's main purpose is to take one extremespeed and attempt to burn it then switch out to something else that can handle burned arceus. __________________ erotically erudite

Jul 26th, 2012, 3:59:28 PM	#20
Superimp Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 59	Replies to Recent Posters Here are my replies to shrang, Poppy, and barry4ever. Replying to shrang: ... Thanks for bringing this up shrang. Against a slower Arceus, Gengar with Substitute does have a slight advantage. Disable is not even necessary for some scenarios! During my Gengar testing, I found Substitute to be quite useful for dealing with Life Orb variants. Assuming Gengar was at a reasonable HP, it could just keep subbing (Avoiding all mindgames entirely) until Extreme Killer was in KO range of Focus Blast. A possible miss wasn't pleasant though. Against variants without Life Orb, I found SubDisable Gengar to be way too shaky for comfort. The Substitute / Disable mindgame isn't the most reliable method for checking Extreme Killer. Even with the possibility of multiple attempts, one wrong prediction messes it up for Gengar. There are other factors too. Recover variants makes the mindgame even worse. Focus Blast has an unfortunate tendency to miss. Of course, faster variants render Gengar useless. In short, SubDisable Gengar is not that reliable compared to other more solid checks. It's a bit situational and very flimsy. I may be wrong about Gengar usefulness as a check. I did find its SubDisable set a bit useful against (slower) Life Orb variants. Let's examine the facts about SubDisable Gengar. Pros for SubDisable Gengar being mentioned as a check: Can switch into many of Extreme Killer's moves. Annoying. Surprise factor. Can possible defeat slower Life Orb variants without any mindgames. If the mindgame works, Extreme Killer will likely switch out. Focus Blast can possibly revenge slower variants. Cons for SubDisable Gengar being mentioned as a check: Gengar is obscure. Gengar has to play a dangerous mindgame against non-Life Orb variants. This mindgame is a bit unreliable, which makes Gengar a very flimsy check. Other moves like Overheat / Recover makes the mindgame even worse. Only "works" against variants which are slower. Gengar relies on Focus Blast for damage. Its accuracy isn't the best. Can't switch into Shadow Claw at all (Or Overheat). Gengar isn't exactly the most ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. Situational I can see why Gengar might be considered a "check." But I can also see how Gengar might not warrant a mention. If you want some more elaboration/details, check my reply to Poppy in Post #16 of this thread. For the time being, Gengar will not be mentioned aside from a general Choice Scarf Trick/Destiny Bond mention. Unless QC seriously agrees to Gengar being mentioned as specific check as well as others like Durant, Physically Defensive Gyarados, Chilan Berry users who can possibly OHKO Extreme Killer like Conkeldurr Low Kick, etc., it is likely Gengar won't be mentioned. There can only be so many “checks” before it becomes convoluted. Thanks shrang for all your input. Replying to Poppy: ... Your Arceus-Fighting spread works much better than the variants I have tested. When I tested max special attack Arceus-Fighting, I used 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe. Your spread still takes considerable damage from ExtremeSpeed though. Anyway, I’ll be sure to mention your points in some form. For the time being, Sableye won’t be mentioned as it’s obscure and a bit shaky. Gengar will follow too. There is no need to worry about Forretress. The Toxic + Pain Split combo will be mentioned. I believe it’s already in position 12, but I assure you it will be emphasized. I may be wrong about the usefulness of Physically Defensive Ho-Oh against Extreme Killer. Still, since you have to pair Physically Defensive Ho-Oh with another check, is it even worth a mention? SR makes it useless. Also, Sacred Fire only has a 50% chance to burn (Slightly less factoring accuracy). Regardless, I'll retest Ho-Oh using the given conditions. Thanks Poppy for your input. Replying to barry4ever: ... Like you said, Pokemon such as CB Metagross and Gengar are quite obscure in Ubers. This combined with their shakiness really questions whether or not they warrant a mention. Right now, it’s very likely there will be no specific mention. Unless QC seriously agrees to these Pokemon being mentioned as specific checks as well as others like Durant, Physically Defensive Gyarados, Chilan Berry users who can possibly OHKO Extreme Killer like Conkeldurr Low Kick, etc., they won’t be mentioned. There can only be so many “checks” before it becomes convoluted (Check Post #16 of this thread for more details if necessary). Landorus-T is currently mentioned as a check to Choice Band Arceus (Not Extreme Killer) since it actually works providing he doesn’t switch into an ExtremeSpeed. Landorus-T has a 64.45% chance of being 2HKOed without SR by CB Extreme Killer’s ExtremeSpeed assuming no HP investment. For Extreme Killer checks, Intimidate is mentioned in general. Thanks for the QC check barry4ever! --------------------------------------------------- Since the Checks / Counters section seems to be fine for Extreme Killer now, I’ll just post any test results on request. Is this analysis update ready for the last QC check? Or is there some last issue which has to be addressed? An example might include the Checks / Counters for Wallceus (Personally, I think it needs a touch more revamp. Thoughts?). Thanks. __________________ They can because they think they can. - Virgil Last edited by Superimp; Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:16:51 PM.

Apr 1st, 2013, 8:49:34 AM	#21
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,094	Fire Blast > Overheat, AC of E-Killer 15:42) <&Furafk> oh yeah (15:42) <&Furafk> trickroom (15:42) <&Furafk> fire blast > overheat (15:42) <&Furafk> on ekiller (15:42) <&Furafk> y/n (15:42) <06%Girl93> NO (15:42) -ChanServ- trickroom moved to #ubers AOP list. (15:42) <&Furafk> !k trickroom (15:42) <%Girl93> you dont use overheat (15:42) <%Girl93> !k X (15:42) * Girl93 was kicked by X (Oops! (Girl93)) (15:42) * Girl93 (~liewwaiki@54FBF357.963855BD.FF090E6F.IP) has joined #ubers (15:42) * X sets mode: +o Girl93 (15:42) <&Furafk> OOPS (15:42) <&Furafk> js (15:42) <&Furafk> fblast ekiller (15:42) <&Furafk> is clutch. (15:42) <&Furafk> dont hate. (15:42) <+ficcion> lol (15:43) <@Girl93> lose to dialga 9.9 (15:43) <@Girl93> ferro in rain lol (15:43) <&Furafk> that's (15:43) <&Furafk> ac (15:43) <&Furafk> u weakass (15:43) <+ficcion> lose to everything ever (15:43) <@Girl93> u go cgange (15:43) <@Girl93> ficcion is right (15:44) <@Girl93> furafk loves fire balls too much (15:44) <@Girl93> which doesnt even ko skarm after sr (15:44) <+ficcion> anything with balls in em (15:44) <+ficcion> (: (15:44) <&Furafk> in sun it does js (15:44) <@Girl93> :( (15:44) <&Furafk> even w/ adamant (15:44) <&Furafk> and 0 satk (15:44) <&Furafk> G_G (15:44) <@Girl93> :) (15:44) <+ficcion> lol (15:44) <&Furafk> trust me i know i did research after fite w/ dankey :D (15:44) <+ficcion> so not on sdef skarm (15:45) <&Furafk> on sdef skarm, sam. (15:45) <+ficcion> lol (15:45) <&Furafk> it was lo iirc (15:45) <&Furafk> you need naughty if you run silk scarf i think (15:45) <@Girl93> LO can use fire blast (15:46) <@Girl93> but you use silk scarf or lefties/lum (15:46) * @Girl93 slaps Furafk around a bit with a large trout (15:46) <+ficcion> oh i guess it does (15:46) <&Furafk> i like fblast more cos it doesn't completely donk u in rain (15:46) <&Furafk> or in case (15:46) <&Furafk> overheat doesn't ko (15:46) <&Furafk> or smthin (15:46) <@Girl93> :[ (15:46) <&Furafk> i think that -2 overheat doesn't kill skarmer (15:46) <@Girl93> will the opponent use skarm + forry (15:46) <&Furafk> so if it has sturdy (15:46) <&Furafk> I USED THAT (15:46) <&Furafk> COOL SHIT (15:46) <@Girl93> unless they outpredict you (15:46) <@Girl93> then (15:46) <@Girl93> change it (15:46) <&Furafk> yeah it's also (15:46) <&Furafk> much safer (15:46) <@Girl93> you can add in fire blast (15:47) <@Girl93> just post in the arceus analysis lol (15:47) <&Furafk> k This is super serious and not related in any way to April Fools, js. EDIT: Sableye should be mentioned as a counter to non-Fire Blast Extreme Killer and Choice Band Arceus if it gets tricked on __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT) Last edited by Furai; Apr 2nd, 2013 at 2:21:55 PM.

Apr 3rd, 2013, 5:26:08 PM	#22
MatchMaster Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 32 USA	If no one minds, I'd like to suggest at least a mention of an EV spread of 49 HP / 252 Atk / 207 Spe with an Adamant Nature. This allows Arceus to just outpace Genesect, who you can't kill with ExtremeSpeed even if you're at +2 and Genesect is running a hasty nature, and Genesect is quite popular.

Apr 3rd, 2013, 8:38:40 PM	#23
jackm Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 330 Seattle	Well, Genesect is usually a scarf variant, which means Arceus has no hope of outrunning it. Besides, even scarf Genesect doesn't pose a massive threat to EK on its own. __________________ "May the odds be ever in your favor" "WTF HAX NOOB" The hills are alive with the sound of PS ladderers. Come over and help out with the Ubers CCAT!