Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II

SuperJOCKE · Oct 8th, 2012, 3:19:08 PM

Pokémon Black/White Version 2
In-Game Tier List Discussion Mark II
First Thread for reference

What is an in-game tier list?

In-game tier lists rank Pokémon according to their usefulness during the main portion of the game—that is, until the credits roll for the first time. In-game tier lists provide players with the information needed to complete the game as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. For competitively-minded players, this approach to playing the game gives them more immediate access to useful items, TMs, and HMs.

What are the tiers?

In this in-game tier list there will be five tiers. Pokémon that are the most useful belong in Top Tier, while Pokémon that are the least useful belong in Bottom Tier. There tiers are as follows:

-Top Tier
-High Tier
-Middle Tier
-Low Tier
-Bottom Tier

Pokémon the belong in Top Tier are found early in the game or at a high level, can defeat enemies easily, have strong level-up move-pools, have useful typing, have high stats, learn a variety of TMs and HMs, and match up well against the game's trainers, gym leaders, and Elite 4. Other aspects, such as self-healing and useful abilities, also positively contribute to a Pokémon's tiering.

Which Pokémon are available in Pokémon Black Version 2 and Pokémon White Version 2?

The newest entries in the Pokémon franchise add a whopping 150 Pokémon to Unova's Pokédex. These additions lend unparalleled diversity to the game. Below, you can find a list of locations as well as the Pokémon that appear in each location. These locations are listed in the order they can be accessed in the game. Routes and Pokemon that only appear in the post-game are omitted from this list. A Pokemon is only listed in the area in which it first appears.

...

Untiered Pokémon (Pokémon in the Unova Pokédex that are only available after the Elite Four or through special means)

...

Will event-only Pokémon, Dream World Pokémon, and Dream Radar Pokémon be tiered?

No, the fact they aren't available in-game in the first place is reason enough for them not to be tiered.

Event Pokémon is only available for an unlimted time, and at times not even available for everyone, especially for those who lack Wi-Fi access or/and access to IRL events.

The Dream World and the Dream Radar might not be available for everyone either, and the fact that you can send over Pokémon not native to Unova in the first place makes them fall under the no-trading clause.

Are Hidden Grotto Pokémon being considered for this tier list?

No. The randomness with which these Pokémon generate make them ill-suited for tiering.

The only exception here is Minccino; it is 100% guaranteed in the Route 5 Hidden Grotto.

Will N's Pokémon be accounted for in the tiering process?

No. The only way to get access to N's Pokémon is through the Unova Link, which can only be accessed with two DS systems and one BW2 game and one BW game, which not everyone has access to.

All of N's Pokémon can be found in the wild anyways, with the sole exception of N's Tympole who can't be caught until after beating the Elite Four.

The only exception to this rule is N's Zorua. Since it is a gift in-game, it is available to all players at all times.

Current Rankings

Top Tier

High Tier

Middle Tier

Low Tier

Bottom Tier

A preliminary tier list will be created every once in a while to give players a better perspective on where the Pokémon are being placed at the moment, by combining to the community's thoughts on these Pokémon. Here is a link to the latest preliminary in-game tier list.

Formatting

Use the following format when submitting a Pokémon:

Name: - Tier
Availability: When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to encounter?
Stats: Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
Typing: Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB effecient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
Movepool: Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options through level up? Is it over reliant on TMs to function? Does it have access to useful HMs to help you traverse the region?
Major Battles: Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include the Gym Leaders, battles against various members of Team Plasma, the final rival battle before the Elite Four, the Elite Four themselves, and the Champion.
Additional Comments: Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here.

For Pokémon that evolve through trading, the following applies:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SuperJOCKE

I've decided that we are going to make seprate entries for Pokémon who evolve by trading if the tiering placement is different. For example, if Elekid that stops at Electabuzz is considered High Tier and Elekid that fully evolves into Electivire through trading is also considered High Tier, they will be combined into one entry. The opposite would apply to, for example, Shelmet and Accelgor. Accelgor is clearly better than Shelmet.

Please write somewhat professionally (Don't use words such as lol etc.)

Some guidelines to follow:
- No glitches allowed.
- No trading in Pokemon from other games. For forth and back trading to evolve Magmar, Electabuzz, Onix, Boldore, Gurdurr, Karrablast, and Shelmet read above.
- We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on another Pokémon's ability. It doesn't matter if Pokémon X does the same thing better than Pokémon Y; if both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such.
- Have fun!

Feel free to dispute and discuss other users submissions, but please, no flaming.

Looking for a place to discuss the White 2 and Black 2 games in general? Well, this is unfortunately not the place to do so, as this thread is purely for tiering purposes. However, go here instead, as there you can freely discuss the games with your fellow members!

crashandcortex · Oct 8th, 2012, 4:45:36 PM

YAY IT'S BACK <3 Soo I might as well post my first theory-vote, for one whom I haven't yet discussed...

Tynamo - Low Tier
Availability: Tynamo has absolutely awful availability. Either you can go for an 8% availability in ChargeStone Cave prior to Mistralton Gym, or you can wait until just before Drayden/Marlon and get Eelektrik at 5% in the Seaside Cave. Irregardless, it comes quite late and is very rare.
Stats: As a Tynamo it's beyond pitiful, but when it evolves into Eelektrik (at the late level 39, yeah good luck training something as useless as Tynamo for that long) its stats suddenly become passable, and since 85% of Eelektross' good moves come via TM or Move Tutor, you can evolve it immediately where it has some very good offenses, although it's very slow.
Typing: Quite a mixed bag. Pure Electric and Levitate leaves it with no weaknesses, but also gives it no resistances outside of itself and Flying, making it good about Skyla and Plasma Bats, but not quite optimal elsewhere.
Movepool: Tynamo's "movepool" is so absolutely godawful that even Klink laughs at it. When it becomes Eelektross however it suddenly obtains an oddly diverse and very well rounded movepool which allows it to utilise its wondrous mixed attacking stats and put them to good work. With gems like Acrobatics, Flamethrower, Rock Slide, Crunch, Aqua Tail, Superpower and Giga Drain, it has no shortage of wonderful coverage moves to use. No faults here at all other than the travesty that is Tynamo.
Major Battles:
Skyla: Can pretty much solo the gym with recovery, Tynamo's low stats may make it difficult if you haven't already evolved it though.
Drayden: You're hit neutrally by his attacks and he resists your STAB, yeah, not really buying a Tynamo victory here.
Plasma: Anybody with a Golbat gets destroyed, Eelektross is quite a bulky Pokemon and Plasma Grunts have fairly weak mons so you should be fine there. Cryogonal dies to physical attacks, but Weavile may prove more problematic due to high Speed if you're lacking Superpower.
Marlon: You steamroll through the entire Gym pretty much, but your low Speed will obviously cost you a fair amount of damage along the way, so recovery is recommended.
Ghetsis: Not too good, Cofag is too bulky and will Toxic you, Seismitoad is Ground so you lose unless you're packing Giga Drain, Drapion and Toxicroak are fine, but don't even bother with mirror Eelektross or Hydreigon.
Rival: Not really important since his team differs depending on what you have, you beat Unfezant, Simipour and Samurott ridiculously easily, win VS Serperior if you have Flamethrower and lose to Emboar and Bouffalant. Pretty good, but not optimal.
E4: You have Crunch for Caitlin and Shauntal, but due to Eelektross' only "good but not great" Attack, they likely won't OHKO what you want them to (All of Caitlins team except Sigilyph can easily take a Crunch or 2) and you'll end up fainting against more powerful foes like Chandelure. Grimsley is only an OK matchup, though Eelektross won't want to fight Marshall, as Mienshao and Sawk outspeed and can really overwhelm him with powerful Fighting attacks. Not too good sadly.
Iris: Beats Archeops and Lapras, as well as Aggron if you have Superpower, the Dragons will nom you.
Additional Comments: An initially useless Pokemon becomes a rather strong yet slow creature. In my opinion, not worth the effort at all, but if you really want to use him he isn't absolutely useless.

Sprocket · Oct 8th, 2012, 5:04:30 PM

Do you count N's Pokemon and Dreamworld Pokemon as in-game?

Too Funk to Druck · Oct 8th, 2012, 5:26:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

Do you count N's Pokemon and Dreamworld Pokemon as in-game?

In my opinion, N's Zorua is the only one that should count, since you get it for free. I don't think anything else should count. afaik, DW Pokemon didn't count in the BW Tier list.

Sprocket · Oct 8th, 2012, 5:48:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Too Funk to Druck

In my opinion, N's Zorua is the only one that should count, since you get it for free.

To be precise, it's the only one you can get that doesn't depend on Unova Link.

***Jumpman16***** · Oct 8th, 2012, 6:38:22 PM

Thanks for making this new thread, I had been consulting the old one pretty heavily.

This is going to be short because I'm still playing through, but there's no way Genesect is anything but Top Tier. If you have Wi-fi, as soon as you start playing you can download the Mystery Gift that will grant you the Lv. 15, soft-resettable-in-Pokémon-Center Genesect with Techno Buster/Signal Beam/Magnet Bomb. The Download Ability and 120/120 attacking stats PLUS the "lol why on earth did they give me this move" Flame Charge (learns at Lv. 18) make a mixed-sweeping Nature like Mild or Rash absolutely perfect for it.

Better still though, is the fact that you don't have to wait until Lv. 40 to learn Signal Beam (or Lv. 22 for Magnet Bomb). And on top of that it learns Fly if you don't want to use the Pidove line (understandable, because fuck Pidove) or some other Flier just for the sake of Flying. But that's not all—as this Genesect is an event mon, you get boosted (1.5x) EXP. If you don't have a pokéhardon right now then I feel bad for you.

I didn't even know about this event until this morning (I got the game yesterday just after 8am, as usual) otherwise I would have activated the event immediately. It might even throw a wrench into Magnemite's plan for lone God Tier status given Genesect's defenses and typing are only slightly worse than the Magnemite line's if that...not even really sure that's true ingame where Fire attacks are in general a lot less distributed and easier to predict than in competitive battle. I have two badges and I have a feeling Genesect is going to turn this game into easy mode, which I kind of don't care about since I'm only using Snivy out of respect to how awesome it is flavor-wise and the other starters really aren't much better.

Age of Kings · Oct 8th, 2012, 6:57:31 PM

I'm very early in the game just having beat Burgh in Castelia, but Magby is mid to high tier if you started with Oshawott or Snivy, because it has rather decent offenses and speed and is a godsend against what those two can't cover. The only real thing relegating it to mid is that its level-up movepool is poor and TM movepool is limited if you are unable to get Magmortar. tl;dr: mid if Magmar, high if Magmortar

Slobroking · Oct 8th, 2012, 10:00:08 PM

On Braviary: It's STAB Return, even without max happiness hits like a truck. Learns Rock Smash and later Superpower to deal with Steels/Rocks. It comes very early, just after the third gym, and you're guaranteed to encounter it (although only at Monday). It has crazy good stats, especially at that point. Not only does it come early, it remains useful throughout the game thanks to it's great stats, powerful STAB attacks, and Fly. Fly is a huge plus, and it actually makes great use of it.

I'm nominating it for top tier.

Afti · Oct 9th, 2012, 12:27:55 AM

Piloswine: High Tier
Availability: Late - to be precise, at the Giant Chasm. This is the biggest issue that Piloswine faces. It comes at a relatively high level, though, and it's easy to find; you don't need to baby it to get it up to speed with the rest of your party. Ideally, you replace an HM slave with Piloswine/Mamoswine for the last stretch of the game.
Stats: As Piloswine, it's a throughly mediocre Pokémon. But flying to the PWT, tutoring on AncientPower, and leveling it once gets you Mamoswine, which enjoys 130 base Attack, good bulk, and usable Speed. Mamoswine hits like a freight train; let's make no mistake about that.
Typing: Ground/Ice is fantastic. It's a pair of highly complimentary STABs, each of which is incredibly good on its own. Defensively, it's lackluster, but the incredible offensive power is well worth it.
Movepool: Small, but precise. It gets Earthquake soon after you obtain it, and can learn Ice Fang from the Move Tutor; combine those with Thrash, which it comes with, and Rock Slide or Stone Edge from a TM. The end result is a Pokémon that can level anything in its path.
Major Battles: At the time you get it, most of the game is done - but it's a typing that does very well against Achroma and holds its own against Plasma grunts. For the Elite Four, you can get several kills per match against everyone but Marshal; the Champion falls with spectacular ease at STAB Ice Fang and Earthquake. Common trainers aren't any trouble at all, either; even neutral hits will OHKO things with this guy's ludicrous Attack stat.
Additional Comments: Piloswine's greatest feature is easily how easy it is to use. It comes at a level near par with your team, and evolves with a single trip to the PWT; the ease of adding it to your party greatly cushions the availability issues. This is what lets it shine where things like Metang fail.

Are we tiering Dream Radar mons? I know we do the Pokéwalker, and there are some interesting options that open up if we tier Dream Radar - Riolu can come as early as your starter, at level 5, with a better ability; you can also get Sigilyph really early. Haven't even used Sigilyph in B2/W2, but starting the game with a level 5 Tinted Lens Sigilyph sounds like Magnemite-level god tier. Using Drifloon in my current run, too - shits all over early game pretty much entirely due to its Ghost typing, and mauls Burgh. Dwindles after Burgh until just after Elesa, when it evolves; haven't finished the run yet, but I'm expecting it'll dwindle late-game as well. At the very least, though, it's going to kick Marshal's ass.

I'm also going to hazard the guess that any of the Therian genies is pretty much unstoppable, ingame. Or Ho-Oh/Lugia/Dialga/Palkia/Giratina, for that matter. (level 5 Palkia is the best water starter)

if we tier DR mons, the list will probably go like:

DR ubers (prediction: Dialga, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Giratina, Lugia)
...
Therians
...
Magnemite
Zorua
Everything else

And, yes, you get DR mons early enough that they can effectively replace your starter - as soon as you beat Hugh for the first time, they're available. Exactly one level behind your starter; just walk into the Pokémon Center and withdraw them.

Antihaxxer · Oct 9th, 2012, 3:01:02 AM

Event Pokemon, Dream Radar Pokemon & Dream World Pokemon are not in the in game tier list for me. Same for Hidden Ability in Hidden Hollows (except the fixed one like Cincinno Skilled Link).

Can we take the previous list started by Stellar ?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468917

TM13IceBeam · Oct 9th, 2012, 3:26:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

Thanks for making this new thread, I had been consulting the old one pretty heavily.

This is going to be short because I'm still playing through, but there's no way Genesect is anything but Top Tier. If you have Wi-fi, as soon as you start playing you can download the Mystery Gift that will grant you the Lv. 15, soft-resettable-in-Pokémon-Center Genesect with Techno Buster/Signal Beam/Magnet Bomb. The Download Ability and 120/120 attacking stats PLUS the "lol why on earth did they give me this move" Flame Charge (learns at Lv. 18) make a mixed-sweeping Nature like Mild or Rash absolutely perfect for it.

Better still though, is the fact that you don't have to wait until Lv. 40 to learn Signal Beam (or Lv. 22 for Magnet Bomb). And on top of that it learns Fly if you don't want to use the Pidove line (understandable, because fuck Pidove) or some other Flier just for the sake of Flying. But that's not all—as this Genesect is an event mon, you get boosted (1.5x) EXP. If you don't have a pokéhardon right now then I feel bad for you.

I didn't even know about this event until this morning (I got the game yesterday just after 8am, as usual) otherwise I would have activated the event immediately. It might even throw a wrench into Magnemite's plan for lone God Tier status given Genesect's defenses and typing are only slightly worse than the Magnemite line's if that...not even really sure that's true ingame where Fire attacks are in general a lot less distributed and easier to predict than in competitive battle. I have two badges and I have a feeling Genesect is going to turn this game into easy mode, which I kind of don't care about since I'm only using Snivy out of respect to how awesome it is flavor-wise and the other starters really aren't much better.

I'm under the impression that Genesect runs along the same vein as BW1 Victini, i.e. limited event only and hence not suitable for tiering purposes...

also, did someone just mention magnemite god tier

Magnemite - Top Tier
Availability: Comes just before Virbank Gym
Stats: Excellent SpA as well as great bulk and passable speed.
Typing: 13 resistances. Magnemite has many many moves to switch into and beat something with Thunder or switch out using Volt Switch.
Movepool: Gets Sonicboom within very literally, 1 level of training. This move can 2-3HKO everything earlygame and Magnemite can afford to 3HKO many things because of the many things it resists early on. Magnemite also gets Thunder Wave to support the team with paralysis support, or slow down faster things to score shots with Sonicboom. It gets Volt Switch by TM which helps his offense a little, Signal Beam by tutor, and eventually Thunder just before Drayden.
Major battles: L10 Magnemite can literally walk into Virbank gym and solo everything. Burgh can be taken down pretty quickly with Sonicboom spammage. Magnemite sucks against Elesa and Clay but he can still take on the plasma grunts in between for some EXP. Post-Chargestone is where he really shines as he goes from 95/45 offense to 135/80 offense. He beats Skyla and Marlon pretty quickly and Drayden's dragons will have trouble when paralysed. Colress is a huge bitch though, but Magnezone's 13 resists find him some pretty nice use in the E4 by tanking everything that isn't Marshal.
AC: The key point to using Magnemite is simple. Abuse his 13 resistances like no tomorrow, abuse Sonicboom earlygame, and never forget Thunder Wave. Sturdy is probably a better ability than Magnet Pull ingame, since Magnemite at full HP is always guaranteed a turn to do something, from paralysing someone to murdering it with Thunderbolt. He unfortunately dies to Scrafty which is somewhat often lategame, but he's still very useful for 99% of the game.

edit: also on the dream radar thing, i'd have to disagree: it's pretty much the same as PDW, the only difference iirc is dream radar can be accessed before Cheren. Honestly, I'd disagree with Pokewalker tiering for HGSS anyway, but iirc pokewalker came with a purchase of HGSS so it's all fine, as it's implied that any person with HGSS will have access to Pokewalker ~~unless you did certain things~~. PDR doesn't come with a purchase of BW2, to my knowledge.

Manic Martini · Oct 9th, 2012, 3:26:26 PM

Riolu - High Tier
Availability: virtually immediate availability, but a 5% encounter rate makes hunting it something of a chore.
Stats: Great offenses, more than acceptable speed, mediocre defenses.
Typing: Steel typing upon evolution gives it a plethora of resistances to take advantage of, even making it's unimpressive defenses palatable. Fighting STAB is also quite great offensively.
Movepool: A bit of a mixed bag early on since it's only STAB is Force Palm for quite a while, but it gets momentum with its movepool the further into the game you are as it uses numerous useful TMs (like Rockslide before Skyla and Dig before Elesa) and gets Swords Dance as a level up move before too late in the game, with a lot of other options for mixed or special versions later on. Quite good overall.
Major Battles: Useful in numerous gyms, even when it lacks an offensive typing advantage. Great against Corless's Steels and any Dark types with Team Plasma. By the time you're at the Elite Four, you have enough resources that he has access to super effective moves against every member. He can also be tailor made to suit just about any particular major battle if you've got the Shards for it (with the free 10 Red Shards, that's Ice or Thunder Punch, if you're inclined) and lack something more appropriate. Virtually never dead weight.

AC: Been my MVP - I'm at Reversal Mountain currently. Counter was super useful against Cheren (more so than any starter) although I'm not sure that's something I would recommend since it requires you take a hit to deal damage. The fact that pokemon have higher base happiness now means it's easy to have a Lucario around the third Gym, and it's quite overpowered at that point and remains strong from then on. That's a huge reason in why it's as good as it is, too.

There seems to have been a lot of disagreement over it in the previous In-Game Tier List, but it's definitely High Tier Material. Not Top, since it has very tangible flaws, but they're rather unproblematic ones.

Also, concerning discussion of Magby, staying as Magmar might mean less coverage and raw power, but you not only have higher Speed, but have access to higher bulk with Eviolite which complicates saying Magmortar is outright better (and with access to WoW, that added bulk plus burning can be quite potent).

LucaroarkZ · Oct 9th, 2012, 6:54:31 PM

I actually can't really see Riolu being any higher than Middle Tier, if not Low Tier. When it evolves, Lucario really suffers from having weak STAB until it learns Aura Sphere, which doesn't happen until the extremely late Level 51. Its level-up movepool certainly doesn't make up for it, since in between learning Force Palm and Aura Sphere, it learns useless moves like Quick Guard and Heal Pulse. Not to mention that when I had it, it was just so rarely useful. It's also really rare (5% encounter rate...). Fighting moves are super effective against no gyms except the first one, where Riolu is not likely to have learned Force Palm by then. It's not really useful in any notable battles except against Grimsley, Iris, and the Shadow Triad, all of which are late in the game.

Lucchini · Oct 9th, 2012, 8:18:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I actually can't really see Riolu being any higher than Middle Tier, if not Low Tier. When it evolves, Lucario really suffers from having weak STAB until it learns Aura Sphere, which doesn't happen until the extremely late Level 51. Its level-up movepool certainly doesn't make up for it, since in between learning Force Palm and Aura Sphere, it learns useless moves like Quick Guard and Heal Pulse. Not to mention that when I had it, it was just so rarely useful. It's also really rare (5% encounter rate...). Fighting moves are super effective against no gyms except the first one, where Riolu is not likely to have learned Force Palm by then. It's not really useful in any notable battles except against Grimsley, Iris, and the Shadow Triad, all of which are late in the game.

I beg to differ. Its main STAB may not give it an advantage in most gyms, but its learnpool is good enough and really complements its high bases. Dig makes it helpful against Elesa, while being able to hit Excadrill super-effectively makes it different from many of the slower Pokemon who fail to make themselves useful in that gym due to being too slow. Since you can catch it at level 5, levelling up gives it enough happiness to evolve rather early.

LucaroarkZ · Oct 9th, 2012, 9:04:19 PM

Well maybe Dig helps against Elesa, but wouldn't you rather use something that's immune to Volt Switch? (i.e. Ground-types, who just happen to get STAB on Dig!) Oh and Lucario is hit SE by Flame Charge, which means Elesa's Zebstrika is absolutely murdering it. Emolga doesn't give a fuck about it either. I didn't use Lucario in that gym, but I can't see it being useful there at all. Excadrill? Excadrill is pretty bulky and Force Palm is weak, so I'm pretty sure Lucario isn't KOing with Force Palm unless it's many levels higher than Excadrill.

Overall, I went out of my way just to catch Riolu, and the low encounter rate combined with the fact that it's just not that useful in-game until after you get the 7th gym badge made it not worth it in my eyes. Now that I think of it, it's definite low tier in my eyes; By the time it's useful at all, you can catch Mienfoo, and although it evolves later, it gets stronger STAB sooner than Lucario does, has a higher encounter rate than Riolu, and can potentially have Regenerator, which is undoubtedly better than Inner Focus/Steadfast in-game. Did I already mention that Riolu's 5% encounter rate is a complete waste of time?

Manic Martini · Oct 9th, 2012, 9:20:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I actually can't really see Riolu being any higher than Middle Tier, if not Low Tier. When it evolves, Lucario really suffers from having weak STAB until it learns Aura Sphere, which doesn't happen until the extremely late Level 51. Its level-up movepool certainly doesn't make up for it, since in between learning Force Palm and Aura Sphere, it learns useless moves like Quick Guard and Heal Pulse. Not to mention that when I had it, it was just so rarely useful. It's also really rare (5% encounter rate...). Fighting moves are super effective against no gyms except the first one, where Riolu is not likely to have learned Force Palm by then. It's not really useful in any notable battles except against Grimsley, Iris, and the Shadow Triad, all of which are late in the game.

Lucario does have poor STAB until quite late, but that hardly holds it back. Just upon evolution, it'll have a very strong Return to work with in addition to Force Palm. Which is in and of itself enough to take on Burgh if you have nothing better.
-Access to both Dig and Rock Tomb for Nimbasa, so it's got coverage on literally everything there.
-PWT, it plows through both Cheren and Corless.
-By Mistralton, it can use Rock Slide and its also perfectly reasonable to have Swords Dance around this point too, since you get the Lucky Egg. Swords Dance+Rockslide will wreck Skyla just as well as anything else (actually, Swords Dance lets you wreck whatever you want if you can outspeed and take a hit; Steel typing makes that happen most of the time, too). Even if you're out-sped, Steadfast versions have a pretty good chance for the boost, too.
-By Opelucid, Ice types aren't exactly widely available. Steel typing is very useful here and Lucario CAN learn Ice Punch if you cough up the shards.
-After Opelucid, it also wrecks any Dark or Ice type pokemon encountered with Team Plasma, too.
-While it does absolutely wreck Grimsley the most and handles Iris well, Lucario also has Shadow Claw for Caitlin and Shauntal.
That's not considering how useful it is outside of major battles. It's got Fighting/Rock coverage fairly early, and can switch over to literally perfect Fighting/Ghost coverage whenever you want with Shadow Claw with the offensive stats to take advantage of it. It's level up movepool is pretty lousy for a good bulk of the game, absolutely, but it won't be relying on that anyway.

You were also saying that the fact that it particularly shines against various late game bosses like Grimsley and Iris was a mitigated point for it just because of how late these battles are. It still gets credit for it.

I can't see it going lower than Mid. I definitely think it's High tier, though.

IOS · Oct 9th, 2012, 9:53:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I actually can't really see Riolu being any higher than Middle Tier, if not Low Tier. When it evolves, Lucario really suffers from having weak STAB until it learns Aura Sphere, which doesn't happen until the extremely late Level 51. Its level-up movepool certainly doesn't make up for it, since in between learning Force Palm and Aura Sphere, it learns useless moves like Quick Guard and Heal Pulse. Not to mention that when I had it, it was just so rarely useful. It's also really rare (5% encounter rate...). Fighting moves are super effective against no gyms except the first one, where Riolu is not likely to have learned Force Palm by then. It's not really useful in any notable battles except against Grimsley, Iris, and the Shadow Triad, all of which are late in the game.

It's High Tier. Learns a ridiculous amount of TMs that make up for its lack of a powerful fighting STAB mid-late game (Reminder: 6 Blue Shards lets your tutor it Iron Tail for a 100 BP STAB as well). Learns Dig, Rock Slide, Shadow Ball, Psychic, and Dark Pulse via. the Move Relearner. It's also a smart idea to tutor it Ice Punch with the 10 free red shards; it comes in handy for Skyla and Drayden. Drayden can actually be completely sweeped with Ice Punch after a single Swords Dance.

In short, I don't think you really took advantage of all the options that give it ridiculous versatility. High Tier. This was generally the consensus reached in the last ingame tier list topic.

lucariojr · Oct 9th, 2012, 9:54:27 PM

Here's my thoughts on my current party, though bear in mind I'm still mucking about in Undella:

Samurott: useful, but not terribly so. Still, he's the strongest in my party level-wise and has MegaMiss. Still debating on what to teach it over Shell Blade since Normal-Water-Water-Bug coverage is kinda weak.

Darmanitan: POWERFUL but underleveled. I think that 140 (more or less?) attack stat and Sheer Forced Flare Blitz speak for themselves. Healing her after the recoil is annoying though.

Sawsbuck: I've done Lilligant to death in B/W, so I thought I'd try it out. It's easily the MVP of my team besides Lucario, rivaling Jack (otter) in terms of levels. Since I'm taking time out of the actual run to full up my pokedex, the combo of Leech Seed+Thunder Wave is amazing. Jump Kick and Horn Leech are great together coverage-wise and surprisingly it doesn't miss that often. Granted, I did have to baby it a little to get it to learn Energy Ball and later Horn Leech, but Energy Ball wasn't as weak as I thought it would be and it leveled up nicely during the Ground Gym.

Lucario: do you think someone with 'lucario' in his username would say anything bad about it? Mine has Ice Punch, Force Palm, Swords Dance and Dark Pulse atm, which is not a bad moveset at all, though Swords dance is a waste of space. I recall someone saying Lucario wasn't any good vs. gyms, but I've solo'd Elsa and Skyla with Bone Rush and Ice Punch respectively.

Golbat: Eh, it's a Fly slave. Might end up using it though, since my team lacks Fighting resists.

Vibrava: oh my god fuck this. geting owned by audino at level 43 is NOT my idea of fun, HAMS (that is the vibrava's name). it's piss weak, and i can count myself lucky i didn't have to grind up a trapinch i got at resort desert. imagine trying to grind up a trapinch (probably not as bad with eviolite) only to have 30 attack points stripped for the next 10 levels. i'm debating on whether or not it's worth grinding for two more levels for flygon. it's that bad.

IOS · Oct 9th, 2012, 9:57:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat lucariojr

Lucario: do you think someone with 'lucario' in his username would say anything bad about it? Mine has Ice Punch, Force Palm, Swords Dance and Dark Pulse atm, which is not a bad moveset at all, though Swords dance is a waste of space. I recall someone saying Lucario wasn't any good vs. gyms, but I've solo'd Elsa and Skyla with Bone Rush and Ice Punch respectively.

Swords Dance is pretty useful against gym leaders and the E4 if you don't have a significant level advantage. OHKOing>2HKOing, and only one turn to set up.

LucaroarkZ · Oct 9th, 2012, 10:23:04 PM

I still maintain that Riolu is Mid tier at best. 1) 5% encounter rate (by no means good), 2) Absolutely REQUIRES TMs/Tutors to do anything (what if you don't have the shards to tutor, because something else in your party needed them?), 3) STAB before Level 51: Weak Palm or Iron Miss (if you have the shards to tutor it), 4) Doesn't shine until late game. I'm not moving on my opinion, so I'm just dropping this subject.

EDIT at anyone suggesting Swords Dance: Set-up moves are 100% terrible in-game, especially on something as frail as Lucario. I have Swords Dance on mine and it's actually been more hindering than it's been helpful.

IOS · Oct 9th, 2012, 10:32:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I still maintain that Riolu is Mid tier at best. 1) 5% encounter rate (by no means good), 2) Absolutely REQUIRES TMs/Tutors to do anything (what if you don't have the shards to tutor, because something else in your party needed them?), 3) STAB before Level 51: Weak Palm or Iron Miss (if you have the shards to tutor it), 4) Doesn't shine until late game. I'm not moving on my opinion, so I'm just dropping this subject.

EDIT at anyone suggesting Swords Dance: Set-up moves are 100% terrible in-game, especially on something as frail as Lucario. I have Swords Dance on mine and it's actually been more hindering than it's been helpful.

1) A 5% encounter rate has not significantly affected a Pokemon's tier position in the past. Look at the HG/SS Tier List, where Scyther is Top Tier, despite being much harder to obtain than Riolu. Plus you don't even have repels at the ranch, so you'll be getting into many random encounters anyways.

2) Requiring TMs is not a negative considering they're free. Requiring shards is a fair point, although note you'll get enough red shards to tutor Ice Punch+Signal Beam+Bug Buzz. That's a move for three different Pokemon

3) Nice trolling

4) Many disagree with you. Ultimately it was pretty much decided in the previous ingame tier list that it's high tier.

Also, Lucario frail? The guy has 10 resistances. He is the exact opposite of frail.

EDIT: Actually, it flat out does not make logical sense to discount Swords Dance. Let's say it takes you from 2HKOing all Pokemon to OHKOing all Pokemon. Against a trainer with three Pokemon:

w/ Swords Dance:
Turn 1: Swords Dance
Turn 2: OHKO
Turn 3: OHKO
Turn 4: OHKO

w/out Swords Dance:
Turn 1: 1/2 1st Pokemon
Turn 2: 2/2 1st Pokemon
Turn 3: 1/2 2nd Pokemon
Turn 4: 2/2 2nd Pokemon
Turn 5: 1/2 3rd Pokemon
Turn 6: 2/2 3rd Pokemon

I mean...did you just decide to Force Palm your way through the game with Lucario while ignoring all its other options? Then try to theorycraft why those options don't work?

Manic Martini · Oct 9th, 2012, 10:39:32 PM

Zubat: - Low Tier
Availability: Available rather early, before the third gym in the Sewers. Golbat can also be caught later on in various caves.
Stats: Super-awesome speed, but it's Attack just doesn't cut it.
Typing: Poison/Flying is actually not as useful as you'd expect it to be, defensively. Fighting and Ground types very frequently have Rock type moves. Offensively, it's quite lousy as well. Poison STAB is obviously one of the worst possible, made redundant by Flying STAB, which itself isn't too great (it'll handle advantageous type match-ups against common trainers decently, but that's about all)
Movepool: Shallow. Good Fly Slave, though.
Major Battles: Absolutely destroys Burgh, and that's it. Marshall will wreck it with Rock type coverage moves.

Additional Comments: I decided to use Crobat because it's one of my absolute favorite Pokemon. But it was totally disappointing. Zubat was a thorn in my side to raise with it's awful stats, while Golbat and, soon after, Crobat were very frequently unable to even 2HKO various things (with an Atk+ nature, no less). When you're relying on Confuse Ray to be of use because your actual attacks aren't cutting it, there's a problem.

Manic Martini · Oct 9th, 2012, 10:51:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I still maintain that Riolu is Mid tier at best. 1) 5% encounter rate (by no means good), Fair Point. Anyone who wants one is going to get it, though. 2) Absolutely REQUIRES TMs/Tutors to do anything (what if you don't have the shards to tutor, because something else in your party needed them?), In a generation where TMs aren't wasted after one use, how is TM reliance bad? If anything, it's arguably better than relying just on moves from level ups because you can change them out for other TM moves whenever it's convenient. TM reliance being good or bad strictly depends on how soon you get the needed TMs, and it's been pointed out repeatedly that the former is frequently the case for Lucario. You make a good point about the shards, but what else really benefits from them as much? (And you CAN farm for them, if it's that big of a deal, although it's not efficient) 3) STAB before Level 51: Weak Palm or Iron Miss (if you have the shards to tutor it), As has been pointed out already, this really doesn't matter to Lucario. And if Force Palm is Super-Effective, it practically always kills anyway off 110 Atk. 4) Doesn't shine until late game. I'm not moving on my opinion, so I'm just dropping this subject. Again, shining in late game is still a good thing compared to not shining in late game. You're trying to make how well it does against what are some of the most major fights less important just because of their timing.

EDIT at anyone suggesting Swords Dance: Set-up moves are 100% terrible in-game, especially on something as frail as Lucario. I have Swords Dance on mine and it's actually been more hindering than it's been helpful.

Lucario's Steel typing makes setting up Swords Dance perfectly viable in all sorts of situations including Major Battles.

And since when were set-up moves bad in-game? Set-up moves can make many of the most important battles much easier and have been the reason many pokemon get placed where they do (Snivy and Lilligant in BW1 can thank their access to Coil and Quiver Dance for their placement as an example).

breh · Oct 9th, 2012, 11:43:55 PM

Wait, SuperJocke, why did you throw away previous entries?

SuperJOCKE · Oct 10th, 2012, 3:16:36 AM

Ok, this is how it is going to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

This is going to be short because I'm still playing through, but there's no way Genesect is anything but Top Tier. If you have Wi-fi, as soon as you start playing you can download the Mystery Gift that will grant you the Lv. 15, soft-resettable-in-Pokémon-Center Genesect.

Event Pokémon like Genesect will not be tiered. The fact that they aren't unlimited to everyone and that they do not exsist in-game makes them ill-suited for tiering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

Do you count N's Pokemon and Dreamworld Pokemon as in-game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Afti

Are we tiering Dream Radar mons? I know we do the Pokéwalker, and there are some interesting options that open up if we tier Dream Radar - Riolu can come as early as your starter, at level 5, with a better ability; you can also get Sigilyph really early. Haven't even used Sigilyph in B2/W2, but starting the game with a level 5 Tinted Lens Sigilyph sounds like Magnemite-level god tier. Using Drifloon in my current run, too - shits all over early game pretty much entirely due to its Ghost typing, and mauls Burgh. Dwindles after Burgh until just after Elesa, when it evolves; haven't finished the run yet, but I'm expecting it'll dwindle late-game as well. At the very least, though, it's going to kick Marshal's ass.

I'm also going to hazard the guess that any of the Therian genies is pretty much unstoppable, ingame. Or Ho-Oh/Lugia/Dialga/Palkia/Giratina, for that matter. (level 5 Palkia is the best water starter)

if we tier DR mons, the list will probably go like:

DR ubers (prediction: Dialga, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Giratina, Lugia)
...
Therians
...
Magnemite
Zorua
Everything else

Dream World and Dream Radar Pokémon will not be tiered. The fact that they aren't avaiable in-game is reason enough, and some people might not even have access to these extras.

When it comes to N's Pokémon, they will not be tiered either. They aren't avaiable in-game unless you use the Unova Link feature with a Black or White. This makes them fall into a similar category as the aforementioned Pokémon. Also, the majority of the Pokémon can be caught as regular Pokémon anyways, with the exception of N's Tympole who can only be caught after the E4.

The only exception of this is N's Zorua. Since it is a gift Pokémon in-game, it can be obtained by all players.

Hidden Hollow Pokémon won't be tiered either, as established by Stellar in the first thread (see OP). The only exception here is Minccino, who is 100% guaranteed.

I will put this into the OP right away. Oh, and this was discussed with Jellicent, so it's not only my decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat breh

Wait, SuperJocke, why did you throw away previous entries?

I haven't thrown anything away.

Oct 8th, 2012, 5:04:30 PM	#3
Sprocket Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,487 Phoenix, AZ	Do you count N's Pokemon and Dreamworld Pokemon as in-game? __________________ Black FC: 2537-3042-2350 VGC2012 Analysis: Slowbro (Uploaded)

Oct 8th, 2012, 6:38:22 PM	#6
*Jumpman16* np: Michael Jackson - 'Mon in the Mirror (Dream World mix off the "Black or White" album) Administrator** Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,737 Fuqua: Where business cases are read and devils are blue	Thanks for making this new thread, I had been consulting the old one pretty heavily. This is going to be short because I'm still playing through, but there's no way Genesect is anything but Top Tier. If you have Wi-fi, as soon as you start playing you can download the Mystery Gift that will grant you the Lv. 15, soft-resettable-in-Pokémon-Center Genesect with Techno Buster/Signal Beam/Magnet Bomb. The Download Ability and 120/120 attacking stats PLUS the "lol why on earth did they give me this move" Flame Charge (learns at Lv. 18) make a mixed-sweeping Nature like Mild or Rash absolutely perfect for it. Better still though, is the fact that you don't have to wait until Lv. 40 to learn Signal Beam (or Lv. 22 for Magnet Bomb). And on top of that it learns Fly if you don't want to use the Pidove line (understandable, because fuck Pidove) or some other Flier just for the sake of Flying. But that's not all—as this Genesect is an event mon, you get boosted (1.5x) EXP. If you don't have a pokéhardon right now then I feel bad for you. I didn't even know about this event until this morning (I got the game yesterday just after 8am, as usual) otherwise I would have activated the event immediately. It might even throw a wrench into Magnemite's plan for lone God Tier status given Genesect's defenses and typing are only slightly worse than the Magnemite line's if that...not even really sure that's true ingame where Fire attacks are in general a lot less distributed and easier to predict than in competitive battle. I have two badges and I have a feeling Genesect is going to turn this game into easy mode, which I kind of don't care about since I'm only using Snivy out of respect to how awesome it is flavor-wise and the other starters really aren't much better. __________________ You haven't trolled till you've trolled in real life. Read A Mullet's Tale for reference if you haven't yet!

Oct 8th, 2012, 6:57:31 PM	#7
Age of Kings Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,303 Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea	I'm very early in the game just having beat Burgh in Castelia, but Magby is mid to high tier if you started with Oshawott or Snivy, because it has rather decent offenses and speed and is a godsend against what those two can't cover. The only real thing relegating it to mid is that its level-up movepool is poor and TM movepool is limited if you are unable to get Magmortar. tl;dr: mid if Magmar, high if Magmortar __________________ Black FC: 3396 3071 2727 mein crap, don't post please

Oct 9th, 2012, 12:27:55 AM	#9
Afti Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 247	Piloswine: High Tier Availability: Late - to be precise, at the Giant Chasm. This is the biggest issue that Piloswine faces. It comes at a relatively high level, though, and it's easy to find; you don't need to baby it to get it up to speed with the rest of your party. Ideally, you replace an HM slave with Piloswine/Mamoswine for the last stretch of the game. Stats: As Piloswine, it's a throughly mediocre Pokémon. But flying to the PWT, tutoring on AncientPower, and leveling it once gets you Mamoswine, which enjoys 130 base Attack, good bulk, and usable Speed. Mamoswine hits like a freight train; let's make no mistake about that. Typing: Ground/Ice is fantastic. It's a pair of highly complimentary STABs, each of which is incredibly good on its own. Defensively, it's lackluster, but the incredible offensive power is well worth it. Movepool: Small, but precise. It gets Earthquake soon after you obtain it, and can learn Ice Fang from the Move Tutor; combine those with Thrash, which it comes with, and Rock Slide or Stone Edge from a TM. The end result is a Pokémon that can level anything in its path. Major Battles: At the time you get it, most of the game is done - but it's a typing that does very well against Achroma and holds its own against Plasma grunts. For the Elite Four, you can get several kills per match against everyone but Marshal; the Champion falls with spectacular ease at STAB Ice Fang and Earthquake. Common trainers aren't any trouble at all, either; even neutral hits will OHKO things with this guy's ludicrous Attack stat. Additional Comments: Piloswine's greatest feature is easily how easy it is to use. It comes at a level near par with your team, and evolves with a single trip to the PWT; the ease of adding it to your party greatly cushions the availability issues. This is what lets it shine where things like Metang fail. Are we tiering Dream Radar mons? I know we do the Pokéwalker, and there are some interesting options that open up if we tier Dream Radar - Riolu can come as early as your starter, at level 5, with a better ability; you can also get Sigilyph really early. Haven't even used Sigilyph in B2/W2, but starting the game with a level 5 Tinted Lens Sigilyph sounds like Magnemite-level god tier. Using Drifloon in my current run, too - shits all over early game pretty much entirely due to its Ghost typing, and mauls Burgh. Dwindles after Burgh until just after Elesa, when it evolves; haven't finished the run yet, but I'm expecting it'll dwindle late-game as well. At the very least, though, it's going to kick Marshal's ass. I'm also going to hazard the guess that any of the Therian genies is pretty much unstoppable, ingame. Or Ho-Oh/Lugia/Dialga/Palkia/Giratina, for that matter. (level 5 Palkia is the best water starter) if we tier DR mons, the list will probably go like: DR ubers (prediction: Dialga, Palkia, Ho-Oh, Giratina, Lugia) ... Therians ... Magnemite Zorua Everything else And, yes, you get DR mons early enough that they can effectively replace your starter - as soon as you beat Hugh for the first time, they're available. Exactly one level behind your starter; just walk into the Pokémon Center and withdraw them. Last edited by Afti; Oct 9th, 2012 at 12:43:56 AM.

Oct 9th, 2012, 3:26:26 PM	#12
Manic Martini Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 13	Riolu - High Tier Availability: virtually immediate availability, but a 5% encounter rate makes hunting it something of a chore. Stats: Great offenses, more than acceptable speed, mediocre defenses. Typing: Steel typing upon evolution gives it a plethora of resistances to take advantage of, even making it's unimpressive defenses palatable. Fighting STAB is also quite great offensively. Movepool: A bit of a mixed bag early on since it's only STAB is Force Palm for quite a while, but it gets momentum with its movepool the further into the game you are as it uses numerous useful TMs (like Rockslide before Skyla and Dig before Elesa) and gets Swords Dance as a level up move before too late in the game, with a lot of other options for mixed or special versions later on. Quite good overall. Major Battles: Useful in numerous gyms, even when it lacks an offensive typing advantage. Great against Corless's Steels and any Dark types with Team Plasma. By the time you're at the Elite Four, you have enough resources that he has access to super effective moves against every member. He can also be tailor made to suit just about any particular major battle if you've got the Shards for it (with the free 10 Red Shards, that's Ice or Thunder Punch, if you're inclined) and lack something more appropriate. Virtually never dead weight. AC: Been my MVP - I'm at Reversal Mountain currently. Counter was super useful against Cheren (more so than any starter) although I'm not sure that's something I would recommend since it requires you take a hit to deal damage. The fact that pokemon have higher base happiness now means it's easy to have a Lucario around the third Gym, and it's quite overpowered at that point and remains strong from then on. That's a huge reason in why it's as good as it is, too. There seems to have been a lot of disagreement over it in the previous In-Game Tier List, but it's definitely High Tier Material. Not Top, since it has very tangible flaws, but they're rather unproblematic ones. Also, concerning discussion of Magby, staying as Magmar might mean less coverage and raw power, but you not only have higher Speed, but have access to higher bulk with Eviolite which complicates saying Magmortar is outright better (and with access to WoW, that added bulk plus burning can be quite potent). Last edited by Manic Martini; Oct 9th, 2012 at 3:52:26 PM. Reason: Further additional comments

Oct 8th, 2012, 4:45:36 PM	#2
crashandcortex Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 30	YAY IT'S BACK <3 Soo I might as well post my first theory-vote, for one whom I haven't yet discussed... Tynamo - Low Tier Availability: Tynamo has absolutely awful availability. Either you can go for an 8% availability in ChargeStone Cave prior to Mistralton Gym, or you can wait until just before Drayden/Marlon and get Eelektrik at 5% in the Seaside Cave. Irregardless, it comes quite late and is very rare. Stats: As a Tynamo it's beyond pitiful, but when it evolves into Eelektrik (at the late level 39, yeah good luck training something as useless as Tynamo for that long) its stats suddenly become passable, and since 85% of Eelektross' good moves come via TM or Move Tutor, you can evolve it immediately where it has some very good offenses, although it's very slow. Typing: Quite a mixed bag. Pure Electric and Levitate leaves it with no weaknesses, but also gives it no resistances outside of itself and Flying, making it good about Skyla and Plasma Bats, but not quite optimal elsewhere. Movepool: Tynamo's "movepool" is so absolutely godawful that even Klink laughs at it. When it becomes Eelektross however it suddenly obtains an oddly diverse and very well rounded movepool which allows it to utilise its wondrous mixed attacking stats and put them to good work. With gems like Acrobatics, Flamethrower, Rock Slide, Crunch, Aqua Tail, Superpower and Giga Drain, it has no shortage of wonderful coverage moves to use. No faults here at all other than the travesty that is Tynamo. Major Battles: Skyla: Can pretty much solo the gym with recovery, Tynamo's low stats may make it difficult if you haven't already evolved it though. Drayden: You're hit neutrally by his attacks and he resists your STAB, yeah, not really buying a Tynamo victory here. Plasma: Anybody with a Golbat gets destroyed, Eelektross is quite a bulky Pokemon and Plasma Grunts have fairly weak mons so you should be fine there. Cryogonal dies to physical attacks, but Weavile may prove more problematic due to high Speed if you're lacking Superpower. Marlon: You steamroll through the entire Gym pretty much, but your low Speed will obviously cost you a fair amount of damage along the way, so recovery is recommended. Ghetsis: Not too good, Cofag is too bulky and will Toxic you, Seismitoad is Ground so you lose unless you're packing Giga Drain, Drapion and Toxicroak are fine, but don't even bother with mirror Eelektross or Hydreigon. Rival: Not really important since his team differs depending on what you have, you beat Unfezant, Simipour and Samurott ridiculously easily, win VS Serperior if you have Flamethrower and lose to Emboar and Bouffalant. Pretty good, but not optimal. E4: You have Crunch for Caitlin and Shauntal, but due to Eelektross' only "good but not great" Attack, they likely won't OHKO what you want them to (All of Caitlins team except Sigilyph can easily take a Crunch or 2) and you'll end up fainting against more powerful foes like Chandelure. Grimsley is only an OK matchup, though Eelektross won't want to fight Marshall, as Mienshao and Sawk outspeed and can really overwhelm him with powerful Fighting attacks. Not too good sadly. Iris: Beats Archeops and Lapras, as well as Aggron if you have Superpower, the Dragons will nom you. Additional Comments: An initially useless Pokemon becomes a rather strong yet slow creature. In my opinion, not worth the effort at all, but if you really want to use him he isn't absolutely useless.

Oct 8th, 2012, 10:00:08 PM	#8
Slobroking Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,203	On Braviary: It's STAB Return, even without max happiness hits like a truck. Learns Rock Smash and later Superpower to deal with Steels/Rocks. It comes very early, just after the third gym, and you're guaranteed to encounter it (although only at Monday). It has crazy good stats, especially at that point. Not only does it come early, it remains useful throughout the game thanks to it's great stats, powerful STAB attacks, and Fly. Fly is a huge plus, and it actually makes great use of it. I'm nominating it for top tier.

Oct 9th, 2012, 3:01:02 AM	#10
Antihaxxer Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 336	Event Pokemon, Dream Radar Pokemon & Dream World Pokemon are not in the in game tier list for me. Same for Hidden Ability in Hidden Hollows (except the fixed one like Cincinno Skilled Link). Can we take the previous list started by Stellar ? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468917

Oct 9th, 2012, 6:54:31 PM	#13
LucaroarkZ Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,114 San Diego, CA	I actually can't really see Riolu being any higher than Middle Tier, if not Low Tier. When it evolves, Lucario really suffers from having weak STAB until it learns Aura Sphere, which doesn't happen until the extremely late Level 51. Its level-up movepool certainly doesn't make up for it, since in between learning Force Palm and Aura Sphere, it learns useless moves like Quick Guard and Heal Pulse. Not to mention that when I had it, it was just so rarely useful. It's also really rare (5% encounter rate...). Fighting moves are super effective against no gyms except the first one, where Riolu is not likely to have learned Force Palm by then. It's not really useful in any notable battles except against Grimsley, Iris, and the Shadow Triad, all of which are late in the game. __________________ "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman I am not lucaroark on Pokemon Showdown. I'm always on PS as Adamant Zoroark.

Oct 9th, 2012, 9:04:19 PM	#15
LucaroarkZ Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,114 San Diego, CA	Well maybe Dig helps against Elesa, but wouldn't you rather use something that's immune to Volt Switch? (i.e. Ground-types, who just happen to get STAB on Dig!) Oh and Lucario is hit SE by Flame Charge, which means Elesa's Zebstrika is absolutely murdering it. Emolga doesn't give a fuck about it either. I didn't use Lucario in that gym, but I can't see it being useful there at all. Excadrill? Excadrill is pretty bulky and Force Palm is weak, so I'm pretty sure Lucario isn't KOing with Force Palm unless it's many levels higher than Excadrill. Overall, I went out of my way just to catch Riolu, and the low encounter rate combined with the fact that it's just not that useful in-game until after you get the 7th gym badge made it not worth it in my eyes. Now that I think of it, it's definite low tier in my eyes; By the time it's useful at all, you can catch Mienfoo, and although it evolves later, it gets stronger STAB sooner than Lucario does, has a higher encounter rate than Riolu, and can potentially have Regenerator, which is undoubtedly better than Inner Focus/Steadfast in-game. Did I already mention that Riolu's 5% encounter rate is a complete waste of time? __________________ "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman I am not lucaroark on Pokemon Showdown. I'm always on PS as Adamant Zoroark.

Oct 9th, 2012, 9:54:27 PM	#18
lucariojr stranger'n a snake's suspenders, but sweeter'n a stolen kiss Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 955 Mississippi	Here's my thoughts on my current party, though bear in mind I'm still mucking about in Undella: Samurott: useful, but not terribly so. Still, he's the strongest in my party level-wise and has MegaMiss. Still debating on what to teach it over Shell Blade since Normal-Water-Water-Bug coverage is kinda weak. Darmanitan: POWERFUL but underleveled. I think that 140 (more or less?) attack stat and Sheer Forced Flare Blitz speak for themselves. Healing her after the recoil is annoying though. Sawsbuck: I've done Lilligant to death in B/W, so I thought I'd try it out. It's easily the MVP of my team besides Lucario, rivaling Jack (otter) in terms of levels. Since I'm taking time out of the actual run to full up my pokedex, the combo of Leech Seed+Thunder Wave is amazing. Jump Kick and Horn Leech are great together coverage-wise and surprisingly it doesn't miss that often. Granted, I did have to baby it a little to get it to learn Energy Ball and later Horn Leech, but Energy Ball wasn't as weak as I thought it would be and it leveled up nicely during the Ground Gym. Lucario: do you think someone with 'lucario' in his username would say anything bad about it? Mine has Ice Punch, Force Palm, Swords Dance and Dark Pulse atm, which is not a bad moveset at all, though Swords dance is a waste of space. I recall someone saying Lucario wasn't any good vs. gyms, but I've solo'd Elsa and Skyla with Bone Rush and Ice Punch respectively. Golbat: Eh, it's a Fly slave. Might end up using it though, since my team lacks Fighting resists. Vibrava: oh my god fuck this. geting owned by audino at level 43 is NOT my idea of fun, HAMS (that is the vibrava's name). it's piss weak, and i can count myself lucky i didn't have to grind up a trapinch i got at resort desert. imagine trying to grind up a trapinch (probably not as bad with eviolite) only to have 30 attack points stripped for the next 10 levels. i'm debating on whether or not it's worth grinding for two more levels for flygon. it's that bad. __________________ aint i a piece of work

Oct 9th, 2012, 10:23:04 PM	#20
LucaroarkZ Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,114 San Diego, CA	I still maintain that Riolu is Mid tier at best. 1) 5% encounter rate (by no means good), 2) Absolutely REQUIRES TMs/Tutors to do anything (what if you don't have the shards to tutor, because something else in your party needed them?), 3) STAB before Level 51: Weak Palm or Iron Miss (if you have the shards to tutor it), 4) Doesn't shine until late game. I'm not moving on my opinion, so I'm just dropping this subject. EDIT at anyone suggesting Swords Dance: Set-up moves are 100% terrible in-game, especially on something as frail as Lucario. I have Swords Dance on mine and it's actually been more hindering than it's been helpful. __________________ "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman I am not lucaroark on Pokemon Showdown. I'm always on PS as Adamant Zoroark.

Oct 9th, 2012, 10:39:32 PM	#22
Manic Martini Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 13	Zubat: - Low Tier Availability: Available rather early, before the third gym in the Sewers. Golbat can also be caught later on in various caves. Stats: Super-awesome speed, but it's Attack just doesn't cut it. Typing: Poison/Flying is actually not as useful as you'd expect it to be, defensively. Fighting and Ground types very frequently have Rock type moves. Offensively, it's quite lousy as well. Poison STAB is obviously one of the worst possible, made redundant by Flying STAB, which itself isn't too great (it'll handle advantageous type match-ups against common trainers decently, but that's about all) Movepool: Shallow. Good Fly Slave, though. Major Battles: Absolutely destroys Burgh, and that's it. Marshall will wreck it with Rock type coverage moves. Additional Comments: I decided to use Crobat because it's one of my absolute favorite Pokemon. But it was totally disappointing. Zubat was a thorn in my side to raise with it's awful stats, while Golbat and, soon after, Crobat were very frequently unable to even 2HKO various things (with an Atk+ nature, no less). When you're relying on Confuse Ray to be of use because your actual attacks aren't cutting it, there's a problem.

Oct 9th, 2012, 11:43:55 PM	#24
breh Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,941	Wait, SuperJocke, why did you throw away previous entries? __________________ VGC Regionals: VGC11 Top 16, VGC12 12th Place