Gen-NEXT development thread

[Zarel*]

"Screw it, let's make our own metagame." –Zarel, 2012 Mar 11, 3:27:18 AM

Hey, guys!

I've never made a thread for NEXT mainly because I don't want a metagame discussion thread, because the metagame is unfinished.

However, I do want to hear feedback, so that's what this thread is: what do you think about NEXT so far? You can also discuss setbuilding for the metagame, but keep in mind that NEXT is unfinished.

This is NEXT:

https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Sho...next/README.md

NEXT is intended to only make changes that Game Freak could plausibly make in the next generation. To do that, we have to analyze exactly what changes between generations.

The one thing that sticks out: A Pokemon's ability to do things is never removed. Nintendo only adds things, never removes them. No stat decreases (or increases). No movepool removal. No ability removal.

That's not to say Nintendo never nerfs at all. Explosion and Selfdestruct were nerfed dramatically just in gen 5.

Anyway, because of how NEXT works, it feels a lot like a new gen: existing OU threats stay mostly the same, but many new threats and strategies are introduced.

Of course, as we learned in gen 5, continually adding new threats has a tendency to be bad news for stall. NEXT tries to counteract this by buffing quite a few defensive abilities, but I don't know how successful I've been in that.

Discuss.

[ThisMysteriousGuy]

About damn time lol

First off I need to say this is probably the best mod meta I've seen thus far, as it's both a community effort (for those who don't know Zarel always ask us guys in #shinx about GenNEXT changes), playable on the main server, and rather balanced. There is still a lot more that could be done with the meta, but it's so fun and unique I'd go as far as to say it's THE best OM.

Also give more Pokemon Signature moves pls (Water Spout on Wailord or Eruption on Camerupt would be pretty sweet)

Oh and for the record, despite all the defensive buffs, GenNEXT is a largely offensive metagame as the defensive threats still can get crushed by all the extreme offensive pressure

[SpecsX]

Needs more players :(

Leech Seed Shuckle is amazing though. It's crazy how just one move can influence a pokemon. Galvantula is a monster as well.

Lol Water Spout/Eruption signature moves

[DTC]

I recommend making Gluttony double Leftovers recovery rather than double the use of berries because it would make Snorlax quite a bit more viable, and I think it is fair to say that Snorlax is a pretty popular Pokemon! When I suggested this idea a while back in #shinx, it was meant with a ton of approbation.

[Pocket]

I DIG

YES
Genesect type-changes / Drive boost
Forecast / cherrim / phione / cryogonal / probopass buff
weather inducing ability nerf
Hail buffs (but why does Snow Cloak reduce damage outside of Hail?)
Charge move buffs (when you mean -1 Def, you mean -1 defense reduction to the opponent, right?)
Recharge move buffs (inverse RBY!)
Ambipom & SKETCH
ECHOED VOICE
SIGNATURE MOVES (Kyurem 120 BP Glaciate WTF)
Zoroark Night Daze buff
Nerfing Sub + Protect
Correcting Self-Destruct / Explosion power!
Truant / Slow Start Buff
Own Tempo Buff

IFFY
Sheer Force boosting EVERY move?!
Close Combat nerf
60 -> 80 / 90 BP - Technician mons ;-;

Props for making shit mons actually viable / have their own niche! I also like the extra flavor that you added for certain Pokemon through new items or simply through "intrinsic qualities" of said Pokemon.

[casey90]

I'm assuming then this thread allows us to post our own ideas for next then?

I had a thought about a sort of defensive choice item that grants 1.33X to both defenses if the user has only one direct damage dealing attack.

Direct damage dealing attacks would include rapid spin and dragon tail i think, despite that not being their primary purpose.

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

60 -> 80 / 90 BP - Technician mons ;-;

As far as I know, no Technician mon is affected by a 60->80 change except Scyther/Scizor's Aerial Ace, and Scyther/Scizor get a buffed Wing Attack (60 -> 2x40) to make up for it.

[Dusk209]

I really love this meta, but I have to agree with Pocket about Sheer Force - it's simply too good of an ability right now, especially on Landorus.

Snow Cloak's new mechanics make no sense to me. If the point is to buff hail, why make the ability work outside hail?

Also, giving Serperior signature leaf storm will NOT help it - it will remain bad because it is still walled by anything that resists grass. If you want to buff Serp, I suggest giving it a way to beat it's common counters without resorting to it's pitifully weak hidden power and dragon pulse.

As a final note, here are a few of my ideas:
- Masquerain: Make Surf it's signature move.
- Mothim: Add Dark Pulse to it's learnset as it's signature move
- Butterfree: Make Psychic it's signature move.
- Beautifly: Make Air Slash it's signature move.
- Dustox: Add Tail Glow to it's learnset. Make Sludge Bomb it's signature move.
- Give Chandelure, Dustox, and Venomoth intrinsic levitation.
- Make Smack Down deal 1.5x damage if the opponent is switching in.
- Cinccino: Add Icicle Spear to it's learnset.
- Triple Kick: Have it's base power go from 15 to 30 to 45 (resulting in a base power of 135 after Technician, assuming none of the hits miss)
- Golurk: Make Shadow Punch or Dynamicpunch it's signature move

[Pocket]

Zarel you missed Bug Bite Scizor ;o

[SpecsX]

Bug Bite doesnt have increased power though, as its not perfect-accuracy. :/

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

I really love this meta, but I have to agree with Pocket about Sheer Force - it's simply too good of an ability right now, especially on Landorus.

:S I don't like how weird Sheer Force's mechanics are, but fiiine. I really don't want any high-OU mons to get buffs, anyway.

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

Snow Cloak's new mechanics make no sense to me. If the point is to buff hail, why make the ability work outside hail?

The point of the Snow Cloak and Ice Body buffs are to buff Ice-types, too. Now they're good in Hail and good out of Hail.

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

Also, giving Serperior signature leaf storm will NOT help it - it will remain bad because it is still walled by anything that resists grass. If you want to buff Serp, I suggest giving it a way to beat it's common counters without resorting to it's pitifully weak hidden power and dragon pulse.

...go on.

I could give Serperior Sig Dragon Pulse! :D (I wouldn't, not flavorful enough...)

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

As a final note, here are a few of my ideas:
- Masquerain: Make Surf it's signature move.
- Mothim: Add Dark Pulse to it's learnset as it's signature move
- Butterfree: Make Psychic it's signature move.
- Beautifly: Make Air Slash it's signature move.
- Dustox: Add Tail Glow to it's learnset. Make Sludge Bomb it's signature move.
- Give Chandelure, Dustox, and Venomoth intrinsic levitation.
- Make Smack Down deal 1.5x damage if the opponent is switching in.
- Cinccino: Add Icicle Spear to it's learnset.
- Triple Kick: Have it's base power go from 15 to 30 to 45 (resulting in a base power of 135 after Technician, assuming none of the hits miss)
- Golurk: Make Shadow Punch or Dynamicpunch it's signature move

The thing about signature pokemon is that they're supposed to be flavorful: i.e. the move fits the Pokemon better than any other Pokemon. For instance, the only Pokemon that really fits for Sig Surf is Lapras, but I'm holding off on that one because right now NEXT needs more defensive buffs than offense.

I really don't want to give intrinsic levitation to any Pokemon that doesn't already have it; no Pokemon that didn't start with Levitate has ever received Levitate, so it doesn't seem like a plausible new-gen change.

I'll make an exception for Bugs, though: I could give Venomoth (and Dustox) levitation with a revised GossamerWing.

I'm considering having Magnet Rise last until switch-out, instead of just 5 turns. I don't know if that would buff offense or stall more, though. :S

[Arcticblast]

What about signature defensive moves? For example, Clefable's Cosmic Power could be +2 Def / +2 SDef and maybe +1 Speed on top of that (as opposed to +1/+1), while Regirock's Stealth Rock could be untauntable.

Also, signature Smog for Koffing?

[Deck Knight]

Seems interesting but very incomplete.

A few things to help you fill out (accept or ignore at your leisure):
[*]Clear Body prevents all stat lowering (relevant: the Regis' Superpower and Metagross' Hammer Arm)

- White Smoke should also do this (Relevant: Torkoal and Heatmor's Overheat).
[*]Hail is improved:

Silver Wind, Ominous Wind, and Avalanche deal 1.5x as much damage in Hail
Snow Cloak no longer modifies evasion, but instead decreases damage by 25% in Hail (and 12.5% out of Hail)
Ice Body has 30% chance of freezing a contact move (and grants passive healing out of Hail, too)
Thick Fat grants immunity to Hail damage

- Hail should also increase the Defense of Ice types by 1.5x to mirror Sandstorm's SpD boost (HAIL STALREIN).
[*]New mechanic: Signature Pokemon:

Certain moves have a Signature Pokemon associated with them. A move will deal 1.5x its usual damage when used by its Signature Pokemon. Some of these moves also receive other changes that apply to all Pokemon using the move - those changes are listed in parentheses.

- I think this can be expanded to include effects and non-attacking moves, such that it would increase effect chance / result by 1.5x (rounded up) and make the move perfectly accurate. Examples:

Rapidash: Flame Charge: +2 Spe, perfect acc.

Flareon: Fire Fang: 30% burn, 45% flinch chance, perfect acc.
Jolteon: Agility: +3 Spe
Vaporeon: Aqua Ring: (now heals 3/16ths HP instead of 1/8th), Baton Passes as a 3/16ths gain.
Espeon: Morning Sun: (now heals 37.5/75/100% HP based on weather)
Umbreon: Moonlight: (now heals 37.5/75/100% HP based on weather)
Leafeon: Grasswhistle: (now perfect acc)
Glaceon: Icy Wind: -2 Spe (-1 * 1.5 rounded up), perfect acc.
[*]New mechanic: Intrinsics:

Pokemon that previously get Levitate are now immune to Ground intrinsically. Instead, they get new abilities in addition to their Ground immunity:

- My suggestions along with what you have:

Gastly -> Gengar - Infiltrator
Koffing -> Weezing - Aftermath
Misdreavus -> Mismagius - Soundproof (This is awesome with Perish Song)
Unown - Analytic
Vibrava -> Flygon - Sand Force (Flygon's eyes are more like goggles, not segmented, and Trapinch's DW ability is Sheer Force to provide contrast.)
Lunatone -> - Tinted Lens (Its eyes are red and moonlight is reflected sunlight)
Solrock -> - Drought
Baltoy -> Claydol - Analytic
Duskull - Pressure
Chingling -> Chimecho - Soundproof (See above with Mismagius, except it also makes Chimecho immune to Bug Buzz, an effect it benefits more from.)
Latias - Rivalry
Latios - Rivalry
Bronzor -> Bronzong - Heatproof
Carnivine - Prankster
Rotom -> Motor Drive
Rotom-C - Sap Sipper
Rotom-F - Ice Body
Rotom-H - Flash Fire
Rotom-S - Sheer Force
Rotom-W - Storm Drain
Uxie - Frisk
Mesprit - Moody (If this just avoided Evasion/Acc boosts/drops it'd be fine)
Azelf - Sheer Force
Giratina-O - Mold Breaker
Cresselia - Pressure
Tynamo -> Eelektross - Volt Absorb
Cryogonal - Ice Body
Hydreigon - Pressure

[akela]

Well, since everyone else is doing it...

Signature Moves:
Sawsbuck: Horn Leech; 60 BP, 2/3 of the damage dealt will be restored to the user as HP.
Bouffalant: Head Charge; User receives no recoil damage.
Volcarona: Fiery Dance; 50% chance of raising the user's Special Attack stat by two stages.
Vespiquen: Attack Order; 25% chance of critical hit.
Skarmory: Steel Wing; 100% accuracy. 90 BP.
Delibird: Present; Ice-Type. 100% accuracy.
Zoroark: Night Daze; 100% Accuracy, 60% chance of lowering the foe's accuracy by one stage.
Cincinno: Tail Slap; 30 BP.
Emboar: Heat Crash; +1 Priority
Walrein: Ice Ball; 10% chance to inflict freeze.
Hariyama: SmellingSalt; Will not cure the target of paralysis.
Hitmontop: Triple Kick; Hit 1 = 15 BP, Hit 2 = 30 BP, Hit 3 = 60 BP.
Sceptile: Leaf Blade; 25% chance of critical hit.
Swampert: Muddy Water; 50% chance of lowering the target's accuracy 1 stage.
Raichu: Volt Tackle; Recoil damage equal to 1/2 the damage done to the target. 75% chance ot paralyzing the target.
Hitmonlee: Mega Kick; 140 BP, 70% accuracy, Fighting-Type.
Alakazam: Kinesis; Decreases the target's accuracy by 1 stage and boosts the user's accuracy by 1 stage.
Persian: Pay Day; 50% chance to cause flinching.
Klinklang: Gear Grind; If the first hit is a critical hit, the second hit will be a critical hit.
Beedrill: Twineedle
Exeggutor: Barrage
Vileplume: Petal Dance; Cannot be confused.
Raticate: Hyper Fang; 100 BP. 50% chance to flinch.
Scyther: Vacuum Wave

[Zarel*]

Continuing to buff defense, because NEXT is supposed to be a diverse metagame.

- Weak Armor reduces incoming move damage by 1/8 of the user's max HP and increases the user's Speed for the first hit after switch-in (and does not activate again until the next switch-in) instead of its previous effect

- Shell Armor and Battle Armor reduce incoming move damage by 1/8 of the user's max HP in addition to their crit negation (also, Shell Armor is removed when using Shell Smash)

- Magma Armor reduces incoming move damage by 1/8 of the user's max HP, provides immunity to Hail and freeze, and provides a one-time immunity to Water and Ice, after which it turns into Shell Armor

- Claydol gets the buffed Filter, and Eelektross gets Poison Heal

[Scorpio]

What about changes to Moody?

-Moody now only increases a stat by 1 stage at the end of a turn (still decreases by 1)

-No longer boosts evasion (although with the above nerf, we may need to see if this step is necessary)

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Scorpio

-Moody now only increases a stat by 1 stage at the end of a turn (still decreases by 1)

This would make Moody completely useless. Remember, nothing good gets Moody.

Removing evasion from Moody might be enough to make it not-overpowered, actually.

[casey90]

Zarel, for clarification on shell,battle, and magma armor. Did you mean that it reduces the moves damage by 12.5% of it's value? or shaves off a number based on total HP of the target?

For example: I have 400 HP total, and Level 100 Chansey uses Seismic toss, would it do 87.5 damage (1/8 of damage) , or 50 (1/8 total HP)?

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat casey90

Zarel, for clarification on shell,battle, and magma armor. Did you mean that it reduces the moves damage by 12.5% of it's value? or shaves off a number based on total HP of the target?

For example: I have 400 HP total, and Level 100 Chansey uses Seismic toss, would it do 87.5 damage (1/8 of damage) , or 50 (1/8 total HP)?

50. It's 1/8 of total HP. My exact words were "1/8 of the user's max HP"...

[Dusk209]

What if moody does nothing while behind a substitute?

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Signature Move suggestions:
Blastoise: Withdraw (Boosts Def by 3, SpD by 1)
Cresselia: Lunar Dance (gives switch-in 1/16 fast healing and a Safeguard effect)
Cradily: Ingrain (gives 3/16 passive recovery)
Lickilicky: Lick always paralyzes
Meganium: Growth (+1 Atk, Def, SpD, SpA)

[Zarel*]

In an attempt to make sure stall is viable, here's Zarel Hailstall, a successful defensive team in NEXT:

...

---

Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Blizzard
- Recover
- Hail
- Rapid Spin

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 208 HP / 124 Def / 176 SDef
Careful Nature
- Body Slam
- Whirlwind
- Rest
- Snore

Milotic @ Leftovers
Trait: Marvel Scale
EVs: 200 Def / 252 HP / 56 SDef
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Dragon Tail
- Recover
- Coil

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Froslass (F) @ Icy Rock
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Ominous Wind
- Hail
- Taunt

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Weak Armor
EVs: 232 Def / 252 HP / 24 Spd
Impish Nature
- Steel Wing
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

Removing evasion from Moody might be enough to make it not-overpowered, actually.

Then why not remove evasion from Moody.

[Sewa]

I'm approaching this new 'generation' and I find it quite interesting :3

But just a question :o

"Pokemon that previously get Levitate are now immune to Ground intrinsically. Instead, they get new abilities in addition to their Ground immunity"
What happens when a Mold Breaker user EQs these pokes? If this is intrinsic and not an ability, EQ should fail, right?

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Sewa

I'm approaching this new 'generation' and I find it quite interesting :3

But just a question :o

"Pokemon that previously get Levitate are now immune to Ground intrinsically. Instead, they get new abilities in addition to their Ground immunity"
What happens when a Mold Breaker user EQs these pokes? If this is intrinsic and not an ability, EQ should fail, right?

That's correct.

I'm debating adding an exception, but for now Mold Breaker EQ doesn't hit a Pokemon with intrinsic Ground immunity.