Should Platinum Tradebacks be allowed in the Diamond/Pearl Battle Tower?

Pretty soon this will or at least should be a non-issue, when Platinum hits the States presumably next April. But for right now, and specifically this thread that has now spanned over a full year in popularity, should tradebacks be allowed for the possible records being aimed at?

My vote goes to "yes" because it is actually possible right now to obtain many of the Tradeback pokemon legitimately from those in our community and elsewhere who have the Japanese Platinum Cart. My good friend yamipoli could hook me up again with any Level Up moves I want for any new ideas I have. In my mind, the only reason to vote no would be because the DP Battle Tower is different from the Platinum Battle Frontier pokemon, and the two should be kept separate as far as records are concerned.

This, however, isn't the strongest reason as far as I'm concerned, because I feel that the actual pokemon themselves in both Towers (Platinum's encompass the entire Frontier and as far as I know aren't even limited to the 950 pokemon listed here) are what constitute the challenge, regarless of what pokemon you're using. Second, in the interests of competitveness, it would likely raise the bar for all of us sooner rather than later without doing so dishonestly, remembering that this is less and less of an issue the closer we get to the US Platinum release and the more of our friends and peers who gain access to Japanese Pearl.

Third, I'm a little biased because I theorymonned this change to my Lopunny Switcheroo Scarf team a few days ago and am dying to both post and use it:

Cresselia@Choice Scarf ** Wind Chime: Trick/Thunder Wave/Reflect/Flash, Bold, 252HP/252Spd/4SpD
Latios@Leftovers ** unban me: DP/CM/Sub/Rest, Timid, 4HP/252SpA/252Spd
Scizor@Sitrus Berry ** MEGA MAN X: Bullet Punch/Superpower/Subsitute/Swords Dance, Adamant, Technician, 172HP/252Atk/84Spd

Latios is familiar to those of you know know what I've been occupying my time with battle-wise the last half year or so, but Cresselia and Scior are the new players. I think this is an improvement over my current team:

Lopunny@Choice Scarf ** SEXY CAN I: Switcheroo/Thunder Wave/Sweet Kiss/Charm, Timid, 252HP/172Def/84Spd
Latios@Leftovers ** unban me: DP/CM/Sub/Rest, Timid, 4HP/252SpA/252Spd
Lucario@Salac Berry ** Tantric: AS/DP/CM/Sub, Modest, 28DefHp/240SpA/240Spd

because Cresselia is bulkier and threatened by less and Scizor is, as many of you know by now from theorymon since the new Platinum goodies were revealed and subsequently its Shoddy performance, incredibly sexy with Technician Bullet Punch and Superpower. I'm honestly not sure if this team is better than my current one though (the shared weaknesses between Cress and Latios are cause for some concern, as is the lack of a Rock resistance). But more importantly, this isn't really about me—I genuinely want all of us who enjoy the BT to weigh in on whether we think it's right to start using Platinum Tradebacks in Diamond and Pearl in the interests of legitimacy and raising the bar.

If you don't care about the Battle Tower either way, please don't bother voting. I'm only posting this because I'm not the only one who thoroughly enjoys it! Thanks.

I can understand that Peterko might not want to do this. I would suggest a different list if any moves only available through Pt are used. If not, then I vote, no.

This is the D/P BT. I'd like to keep it that way. Anything available in D/P and through Pal Park is okay with me.

I still think that the key difference is between the two different arenas of play, and not the handful of pokemon that received moves that are clearly better for the DP BT. Over 900 pokemon have changed from DP's BT to Platinum's BT in comparison. I honestly don't see how it doesn't still remain the DP BT. Thank you for actually posting at any rate, though.

You're right that it is the BT pokemon that constitute the challenge, platinum is opening up more strategies that I don't think are an unfair advantage. Hax has always been the determining factor of a losing team, platinum allows for more strategies to overcome/avoid it, but there is nothing it brings that is going to stop it. So sure allow platinum goodies to be used. Am I making a valid point here?

I don't see any new moves that have been added that would constitute a giant advantage, of which could be taken advantage by players who aren't already very invested in the Battle Tower and don't already have pretty good streaks. People see greater type coverage in the addition of things like Superpower and 4th-gen-exclusive pokemon's Punches, but the Battle Tower has an obscene number of pokemon, and getting a couple new moves isn't going to immediately mean you've covered a common threat without losing something else. The fundamental "hax" problem remains.

I also believe the "D/P Battle Tower" terminology is flawed. It is just, simply, the Battle Tower, just like Diamond and Pearl are simply Pokemon 4th Gen. I don't think twice about using Purugly in Diamond even though I can't get it there, or an imported Selfdestruct Snorlax. The world is just expanded, and it is obviously legal, so I don't really see the problem in such a thing.

I agree that new moves should be accepted. The D/P Battle Tower has already been under fire from attacks that aren't in D/P. Suggesting that Platinum tutor moves shouldn't be allowed is like suggesting that XD tutor moves shouldn't be allowed. The AI teams only have moves that they could gain in Diamond and Pearl but it hasn't spared them any 3rd gen beatings! If a move is legal players shouldn't be shy about using it.

Jumpman16 said:

I honestly don't see how it doesn't still remain the DP BT.

Click to expand...

We anticipate Pt moves to create longer streaks, don't we? If you allow Pt moves, how is it not a new BT? When you add powerful moves(Outrage, Trick, Superpower, etc.), it is not the same BT that we started with.

Like I said, it should have its own list.

For those that keep talking about Emerald or any game that came before, I stated that Pal Park already covers that.

I haven't been playing the Battle Tower over the past few months, but I spent a lot of time working my way up the leaderboard, so this issue is near and dear to my heart. I haven't voted yet, but I'm tempted to say "Yes" for the following reasons:

1) Ensuring the veracity of BT records has always been a bit problematic. There's no reason to make it any more complicated now that Platinum is out. Allowing the tradebacks keeps things simple by allowing any legal pokemon to be used for achieving BT records.

2) Although I haven't played the tower in a while, I am still following the BT threads -- and the teams are getting fairly stale. I still have a few ideas up my sleeve, but they are unlikely to unlock any newfound BT strategy. By opening the leaderboard to tradebacks, we might see some innovative new teams.


BTW Jumpman, I think that new ScarfTricking team is better than your previous squad (just theorymon, of course). In some of my early BT runs, I used the plain old Cressy I got ingame, and ran a Calm Mind set. Cressy caused huge problems for so many pokes in the tower, it was really surprising. It's weird seeing a Cressy set with Flash, but I'm very interested to see how it works out for you. So I guess that's another reason for me to vote "Yes"!

I'm personally looking forward to some obscured things (Like Uxie with Knock Off) but I won't be getting Platinum until its NA release.

this is an interesting thread indeed, because with all the movesets changes, many new team might be developed and then the BT streaks list will be modified, but as was stated in previous posts i think that if it is programed ingame and allowed in the BT, then it should be allowed, some players, like me thought, might find some problems to get pokes with the new moves, but still i have to say yes.

anyway both the D/P and the platinum towers will be different due to the AI pokes changes in movesets and items, also i kind of have the feeling that in platinum tower the AI must have got some changes, i mean we havent tested yet if the AI "thinks" in the same way that its D/P counterpart.

im happy to see that youre improving your switcheroo team with the platinum movesets jump, precisely i was thinking about the many pokes that learns trick with the new tutor (now my grandma learns trick too lolol), and anyone wanting to make a trick team or simply use a trick poke will have a lot of options to choose from, so with this all new trick pokes we have many toys to play with lol.

P.S. why Peterko´s D/P battle tower records is not a sticky thread?

Well initially I was going to vote no but that was only because I forgot that Platinum has already come out in Japan! I see nothing wrong with it if the pokemon are legitimately able to be obtained. I used pokemon like Tyranitar and Raikou in the Ruby BT when I got Colosseum. Those pokemon weren't in the BT database or whatever else for Ruby/Sapphire but I think it's legit still.

I voted "yes" because I don´t see a reason not to allow them, plus it´s really easy to list the records achieved by a team with tradebacks so that we can distinguish between the two...also I don´t expect to see many new trainers to make the list but "the usual suspects" who already have DP only records so I think it could look like this (example):

4. Jumpman16 (268) - Lopunny, Latios, Lucario; Jumpman (210*) - Cresselia, Latios, Scizor; Jumpman16 (203) – Starmie, Tyranitar, Garchomp

Note: records in bold & italics were achieved by using one or more Platinum tradebacks


anyway, I want the DP tower topic to list Platinum frontier records in the future as well...kind of a records fusion topic called

Platinum Battle Frontier & Diamond/Pearl Battle Tower Records

or something like that, probably a new topic after the US release because not many people will play DP tower afterwards

Peterko said:

4. Jumpman16 (268) - Lopunny, Latios, Lucario; Jumpman (210*) - Cresselia, Latios, Scizor; Jumpman16 (203) – Starmie, Tyranitar, Garchomp

Note: records in bold & italics were achieved by using one or more Platinum tradebacks

Click to expand...

I like this way of doing things: by keeping records mixed but distinct, people will find it easy to see how Platinumised teams fare in comparison to DP-only teams, and they'll be able to work on their own stuff accordingly. If nothing else, it'll save people going back and forth between threads!

There's no real legitimacy issue: like Jump said, it's perfectly possible ingame to use tradebacks and folks in Japan are doing it already.

DougJustDoug said:

1) Ensuring the veracity of BT records has always been a bit problematic. There's no reason to make it any more complicated now that Platinum is out. Allowing the tradebacks keeps things simple by allowing any legal pokemon to be used for achieving BT records.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't even think of this fact. Besides the obvious "hey i just photoshopped a record of 3000 prove im wrong", there's the possibility that TRE or Fast Hippo used a different "faster" team to get from 1-49. This verily likely isn't true of them, since both of these teams look "22 minutes or less per 7 battles" team to me. It's not true of myself, though, as I have posted in that thread. I'm not using a Trick/Switcheroo Scarf team for the first 49 battles.

I've timed my 7-battle runs like over two dozen times with both my Lopunny team and my Starmie team, and after Battle 49, my Lopunny team averages 33 minutes per 7 battles, while my Starmie team averages 20 minutes per 7 battles. This is an astronomical difference when you are shooting to break 330 wins and pretty much the only reason to even consider using a "worse but faster" team and likewise not to use a "solid but stall team". If I committed to my Lopunny team from Battle 50 onwards, it would take me over 22 hours of play to get there. And this is 100% attention paid to the BT (which I've realized is kind of a fun way to break the monotony in general, but still). With my Starmie team, it would take under 13½ hours.

That's such a big difference to me that I have pushed past 105, 126, even 161 with my Starmie team twice in the past 6-8 weeks after Battle 50 just in the interests of time. However, I know my Starmie team is weaker than my Lopunny team, and I've paid the price because of it about a dozen in the last two months where I very likely would not have with my Lopunny team (about half of those losses came before 49 lol, mainly to utter hax but a loss is a loss).

My actual point is that I very much want to use my Starmie team to get my record as fast as possible. As far as how it iwll be recorded if I break my personal best of 268, I don't think anyone will have a problem with it just being denoted as "Lopunny, Latios, Lucario" if I have made the conscious commitment to using the Lopunny team from Battle 50 onwards, which I largely have. But how can you prove that, as Doug seems to be pointing out with his "veracity" comment? In my current run I actually used the Starmie team until battle 63 before changing to Lopunny team (I am at 133 atm). If I pass 268, should the denotement reflect that I used both teams, when many would argue that Battles 1-49 "don't matter"? And how can you prove my commitment anyway? And does it matter when I know it's a weaker team? I'm sure you see my and DJD's points in a brighter—and much wordier—light now.

2) Although I haven't played the tower in a while, I am still following the BT threads -- and the teams are getting fairly stale. I still have a few ideas up my sleeve, but they are unlikely to unlock any newfound BT strategy. By opening the leaderboard to tradebacks, we might see some innovative new teams.


BTW Jumpman, I think that new ScarfTricking team is better than your previous squad (just theorymon, of course). In some of my early BT runs, I used the plain old Cressy I got ingame, and ran a Calm Mind set. Cressy caused huge problems for so many pokes in the tower, it was really surprising. It's weird seeing a Cressy set with Flash, but I'm very interested to see how it works out for you. So I guess that's another reason for me to vote "Yes"!

Click to expand...

While I'm inclined to agree with you, I honestly don't know that it *is* better, lol. Either it is, and I am just that awesome at theorymon myself, having stumbled upon a "guaranteed 3,000 streak" team virtually on paper, or it isn't and I would be willingly risking a 133+ win streak by using the untested Cress team, where I might not have seen an "obvious" flaw in the 950 pokes in the DP BT that soundly beats it (650 from Battle 50 on but you get my point). Isn't that the risk I take by using this team after having spent over five hours building up a decent streak of 133 already, though?

I would just simply post the fact that "from battle X to Y I played with ...", there are ways to mention "more than one team in one run" in the list too, it depends on how you describe your streak

jump an example to beat your theorymon team is:
cowgirl margot, cowgirl sophie, dragon tamer alonso, dragon tamer hernan, hiker aldo, hiker andreas, one of the 4 PI´s, one of the 4 pokéfans, pokémon ranger joy, pokémon ranger rusty, rancher alton, rancher kellen, ruin maniac jaylin, or ruin maniac titus (ugh 10 trainers) sent out rhydon

QC activated, rhydon used horn drill, cresselia fainted

yeah if you manage to trick turn 1 (no QC activation) latios sets up no matter what...I´d be nervous otherwise because the next turn could look like this:

QC activated, rhydon used horn drill or CH megahorn, latios fainted...

I don´t know if you would use scizor before latios, but superpower doesn´t 1hko and rhydon stone edge can CH, quake is a 2hko (QC activates the next turn) or it just simply horn drills you...sub is probably a wasted turn in this situation

someone would call it extreme hax to face 2 QC horn drills in a row, but it has happened before and it can happen again (other notable pokémon who say hi are rapidash, QC seaking, QC crawdaunt and QC gligar) plus there is no need for a third one because you´re 3-1 down and your last pokémon would face a counter...

of course, I don´t want to and have no right to say you shouldn´t use the team you theorymoned because I know that you know what you´re doing

Peterko brings up a great point. Wasn't one advantage of the Stripp.., I mean Lopunny that OHKO users won't use those on Lopunny? Every time you face one you will have a 6% chance of losing Cress on the first turn.

Also, I would suggest going with your best team after 49. I believe you are wasting 22 minutes per round, rather than saving 11 minutes per round. I believe your Lopunny team is much stronger.

Moves from Yellow were immediately allowed in RBY, moves from Crystal were immediately allowed in GSC, and moves from Emerald were immediately allowed in RSE. As long as the moves exist legally within the same generation, I see no problem with using them to your fullest advantage.

The opportunity to hear Cresselia's cry the first thing of each and every battle is enough to outweigh the unfairness to the BT of using movesets unavailable to them. Voted yes.

I say they should be allowed. They are obtainable in the game through another game of the same generation, kind of like Emerald and Ruby/Sapphire. Its all legal and fair game, either way a good team is a good team, and a bad team is a bad team. As long as its all legally obtainable somehow within the game and without the use of any kind of hacking/cheating, it should be allowed.

Besides, Peterko even just showed that it wouldn't even make much of a difference in listing the records, so I don't see a problem.

Syberia said:

Moves from Yellow were immediately allowed in RBY, moves from Crystal were immediately allowed in GSC, and moves from Emerald were immediately allowed in RSE. As long as the moves exist legally within the same generation, I see no problem with using them to your fullest advantage.

Click to expand...

Why do you people keep saying stuff like this? The issue, which has probably already been decided, is whether records acheived with Pt moves should be placed on the current D/P BT records list.

NO ONE has taken the position that Pt should not be used in the BT. I understand that the title says "allowed" but the OP clearly states that it is in reference to records obtained with Pt moves.

I haven't played in the tower since I accomplished my minimum 100-win streak in both diamond/pearl games as I don't see why tradebacks cannot be allowed especially now that the Japanese versions are available.

Before I vote, I'd just like to ask a question, what's a tradeback?

Traded it to Platinum, tutored moves onto it, traded it back to Diamond or Pearl where it did not have those move available.

FastHippo said:

Why do you people keep saying stuff like this? The issue, which has probably already been decided, is whether records acheived with Pt moves should be placed on the current D/P BT records list.

NO ONE has taken the position that Pt should not be used in the BT. I understand that the title says "allowed" but the OP clearly states that it is in reference to records obtained with Pt moves.

Click to expand...

My point was just that it's what the game allows, within the current generation.

If I may make an analogy, Babe Ruth's home run record was beaten fair and square by Roger Maris, even though he had a greater number of games in the season to do it with.

Peterko said:

I would just simply post the fact that "from battle X to Y I played with ...", there are ways to mention "more than one team in one run" in the list too, it depends on how you describe your streak

jump an example to beat your theorymon team is:
cowgirl margot, cowgirl sophie, dragon tamer alonso, dragon tamer hernan, hiker aldo, hiker andreas, one of the 4 PI´s, one of the 4 pokéfans, pokémon ranger joy, pokémon ranger rusty, rancher alton, rancher kellen, ruin maniac jaylin, or ruin maniac titus (ugh 10 trainers) sent out rhydon

QC activated, rhydon used horn drill, cresselia fainted

yeah if you manage to trick turn 1 (no QC activation) latios sets up no matter what...I´d be nervous otherwise because the next turn could look like this:

QC activated, rhydon used horn drill or CH megahorn, latios fainted...

I don´t know if you would use scizor before latios, but superpower doesn´t 1hko and rhydon stone edge can CH, quake is a 2hko (QC activates the next turn) or it just simply horn drills you...sub is probably a wasted turn in this situation

someone would call it extreme hax to face 2 QC horn drills in a row, but it has happened before and it can happen again (other notable pokémon who say hi are rapidash, QC seaking, QC crawdaunt and QC gligar) plus there is no need for a third one because you´re 3-1 down and your last pokémon would face a counter...

of course, I don´t want to and have no right to say you shouldn´t use the team you theorymoned because I know that you know what you´re doing

Click to expand...

Love where your head's at, as always, thinking about the possibilities and percentages without even needing to play. However, as I detailed somewhere in that 3,500 dissertation of mine, the reason I don't think—or, to be more accurate albeit confident, know—that QC Rhydon will use Horn Drill is because it can "at least 2HKO" with another move, which is Megahorn in the case of Rhydon and Seaking. The reason they are gay for my Starmie team is because they can actually OHKO Starmie. Rhydon uses EQ on Lopunny because it does significant damage. Same logic goes for Horn Drill Rapidash...it uses Flare Blitz on Lopunny. I won't see QC Seaking, Gligar and Crawdaunt after Battle 49 (but have lost to QC Seaking at ~23 which underlines what I was saying in my last post about those battles not being guaranteed).

Anyway that's an aside and I know the new threats to Cress (namely Heracross and Yanmega) through theorymon, but on the off chance that I'm not the best theorymonner of all time I probably am not guaranteed never to lose again!!

edit: oh yeah, the main thing i wanted to post in this thread is that i'm actually torn against using the cress team because all along my goal has been to prove that my lopunny team is the best in the bt, lol. getting to 63 or 105 or 168 with the starmie team or any other team kind of defeats my personal purpose in that regard for those of you who care, lol