CAP 11 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 3

[Fuzznip]

The final poll. This will decide CAP 11's concept.

Due to this being a clickable poll, I will not allow posts such as "I voted for Smelly Dan." Put some substance into your posts. Discussion is strongly encouraged at this point. What did you like about the concept you voted? What did you not like about the concept you didn't vote? Show some support for your favourite!

Concepts in the order they were submitted:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

Name - Winter Wonderland

Description - A Pokemon that can take advantage of Hail in some form.

Justification - Face it, Hail sucks in the current metagame. When you look at the auto-weather starter being 4x weak to Fire, the entire lot of Pokemon that abuse it being weak to Stealth Rock, and the utter lack of very effective sweepers under Hail, you can immediately see why its usage is practically nonexistent and it's primary mode of use is "Hail Stall." Hail in itself, though, is not much worse off compared to other weather effects; it is primarily limited in the Pokemon that can take advantage of it successfully. This concept attempts to explore the depth to which Hail could become successful in the OU metagame through creating a Pokemon that interacts with it on some fundamental level and fixes - or helps to fix - many of the problems Hail-themed teams run into in the current OU metagame.

Questions To Be Answered -

• Can Hail become a legitimate, non-gimmick strategy in OU with better Pokemon to take advantage of it?
• Can Hail effectively function in a manner other than HailStall?
• Will a greater prevalence of Hail decentralize the weather metagame from around Sandstream users?
• In what interesting ways can we develop a Hail-based Pokemon other than what we've already seen?

Explanation - 4th generation is marked by much excitement for the "auto Hail-inducing" Pokemon. When it came, it wasn't all that people were hoping for. Furthermore, all of the Pokemon that appeared in the metagame to assist Abomasnow in its job did nothing to negate the severe weaknesses that come with Ice-typing with Stealth Rock around or the general lack of type diversity allowed on Hail teams. Lastly, in terms of weather, Hail is the only other one besides Sandstorm available permanently in the OU metagame, so this doesn't make it unfamiliar or bizarre to the common player.

This Pokemon could be any number of things. It could use either Snow Warning itself to be a starter of Hail, serving a different role than Abomasnow, or it could run Snow Cloak / Ice Body without having the Ice-typing of the other users. It could still be Ice-typing, but could otherwise be anything. It doesn't even really need any of the obvious abilities or typing, though, as a Pokemon could simply be designed to function effectively as another Pokemon in Hail. Heatran comes to mind as a common Hail supporter for its ability to take Fire-type attacks with ease and set up Stealth Rock for the Hail team. Furthermore, the concept could either make a sweeper or a defensive Pokemon, although I feel that a bulky attacker on the order of Tyranitar might help Hail the absolute most. The ability for this Pokemon to go toe-to-toe with Tyranitar and fare well would alone provide an interesting point of study for the OU metagame. What happens when Tyranitar isn't the baddest weather-user on the block anymore? I'd like to find out.

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate?

Explanation:
This concept is very similar to the "Partner in Crime" concept proposed back in CAP 7. But, with all the changes in the CAP process, and stagnation in the metagame, I think this is a good time for the CAP community to focus on the competitive factors of synergy between pokemon.

I envision we will pick a base pokemon during the Concept Assessment. We will make a case to the TL for a good-but-not-great OU pokemon and the characteristics of that pokemon's "perfect mate". The Topic Leader would then select their favorite. We could even rename the concept to "<Pokemon>'s Perfect Mate" from that point forward.

It think we could have some fantastic discussions every step of the way, dissecting the base pokemon in exacting detail to figure out the best way to make an ideal teammate. If we choose the right base pokemon, we might even breathe some new life into a sentimental favorite, that isn't quite up to top-OU standards on its own.

This poll will close tomorrow at 2 pm EST.

[~Golden Emp]

I voted for DougJustDoug's idea, because the Hail one would make all of the teams playing at the same type Hail-oriented, lol. What I really like about the CAP Metagame is the variety that you find in every battle. There's unlikely to be 2 exactly alike teams battling each other. With Hail, all of the teams woudl carry at least Abomasnow, the new CAP, walrein and a Rock-type resist :P

Doug's idea would also centralize it (but less than running hail), with every team running the same two Pokes.

[Azule]

Originally Posted by Fat Azule

From my point of view, all three of them are pretty strong concepts.After reading the hail concept a few times, I cant shake the view that this is going to become the Tyranitar of Hail,so to speak.
Perfect Mate seems a little bit negative with the way it could give the opponent an advantage in predicting, because if it has limited use in OU beside helping Pokemon x, the moment you see it you'll know Pokemon X is probably on the team.However, it could also be done a little like the CeleTran combo, where both of them have use outside of partnering each other. For that reason, i'm voting Perfect Mate

Voted Perfect Mate for the same reasons as last time, but I dont really mind which one wins, they could both become pretty fun.

[Rising_Dusk]

Once again, voted for Winter Wonderland.

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

I know that there is much concern over the viability of Hail as a concept, and that a lot of people are used to it doing poorly in both polls and slates because "it's Hail." A lot of people go so far as to attribute the fact that it has done poorly in past CAPs to the fact that it is a "bad concept," when nothing about it actually suggests such a thing. I urge users to consider the concept at its core when going to vote, as that is really what matters here.

To address what many people are saying is a "very limited" concept, I will bring up several different possibilities that a CAP based on taking advantage of Hail could be. I will also avoid discussing anything that is considered poll-jumping, and will instead present some vague direction possibilities that will clearly show how we, as a community, are not over-limited by the concept.

There are five immediate ways to take advantage of Hail.

1. A move that takes advantage of Hail
2. An ability that takes advantage of Hail
3. A typing that can take advantage of Hail
4. The capacity to start Hail somehow
5. The capacity to take advantage of battle conditions or common responses to Hail in the metagame

That list above gives us a ton of places where we, as a community, can weave in our interaction with Hail. There may not be a lot of in-game ability or move options to take advantage of it, but there are ample possibilities for a Pokemon that can take advantage of it in some fashion. Furthermore, the types that can function effectively in Hail are not necessarily limited to Ice-types; Heatran, for example, is an excellent Pokemon in Hail and supports such teams superbly. This is also neglecting the possibility of creating anything new. Now, I will leave it at that. We've had ample discussions in IRC over different typing possibilities as well as ability and stat combinations. We are in no way more limited by the Winter Wonderland concept than by other concepts in this poll to the point where the future stages are predefined by the selection of the concept.

Lastly, we are in no way obliged, as a community, to fix all of Hail's problems at once, or even try to. We can try to see if we can't deal with a few of them, decide which problems are the most pressing, and then work from there. There are a lot of things that can be done, and most of all, this is about learning; it's why we do CAP at all. There is so little going for Hail right now, and it is painfully obvious to everyone here that "Hail is a bad weather condition" is the dominant mindset. However, take care to note that this is only because the current metagame makes it so! If we impact the metagame with the Winter Wonderland concept, then we are able to see the possibilities and things that Hail can really do, something that as-of-yet we cannot in OU. That's the intent of the concept, and is something that excited me - and hopefully most of you all - a great deal.

My reasons haven't changed since the last poll, and no one has presented any major arguments that my points don't already address. It's all down to personal preference now, and I'd honestly be happy with either for this CAP.

Good luck, Doug; may the best concept win!

[Spenstar]

Personally, I voted for "Perfect Mate".

Taking a look at the pokemon in OU, a few, such as Electivire and Weavile, are considered to only be OU because of n00bs who use them, according to friends of mine. While Electivire has a partner in Gyrardos, I think a "perfect partner" for Weavile could garner it some respect. After all, Weavile is my personal favorite pokemon of all time, and I'd love to see it used more competitively.

A pokemon that could turn a "n00bs's guy" into a great pokemon competitively would work wonders for the metagame. Weavile is a wonderful counter to the dragons of OU and any other pokemon weak to ice moves or weak to Dark moves. Azelf, Salamence, Flygon, Dragonite, Revenankh, Fidgit, Kitsunoh, Cyclohm, and Colossoil all pack weaknesses to Weavile's STAB. That's a lot of pokemon in OU and CAP, and if Weavile got a partner that could make it truly great, those guys would be given a true run for their money.

[reachzero]

I voted for Perfect Mate, mostly because I believe that Winter Wonderland would be really restricted in terms of producing a good product--Hail only provides a few specific benefits, name 100% accurate Blizzard and activation of Ice Body/Snow Cloak. In terms of using Hail well, there are only a few ways to really do it, and I'm concerned that it would lead to a Pokemon that is about as different from Syclant as Gallade is from Lucario.

[Apocalypse B-C]

Uh, Spenstar, neither Revenankh nor Kitsunoh is weak to a Weavile STAB; their secondary types cancel out the Dark weakness of their Ghost typing. Besides, the concept is supposed to be for the OU metagame, not the CAP metagame.

....anyway, I actually switched from Perfect to Mate to Winter Wonderland, mainly because I already sort of have an idea how it could be worked, heh. Well, I guess I just switched because I realized I like the idea of Hail getting more use. Simple enough, right?

[Quilph]

I switched my vote to Perfect Mate, because as I thought it over, its possibilities seemed more varied and interesting. I will be perfectly happy with either one, but in the end I concluded there was more we could do with it. I fully agree with Spenstar's reasoning. This could be a great opportunity to find out why some OU Pokemon are "good but not great" and what types of a partner could remedy its faults. If this concept is chosen, we'll need to determine who, exactly, falls under the "good but not great" category, which could require its own discussion thread.

[TubaKing]

I still feel that Clean-up Kid was the best idea for CAP 11, but that of Winter Wonderland and Perfect Mate, Perfect Mate is the lesser of two evils.
Hail is already quite viable in the OU metagame and having nothing but weather teams on the CAP ladder sounds rather miserable. I believe that Perfect Mate would have an arguably better, longer lasting effect on the OU/CAP metagame.

[EdgeHead]

I'd be happy with both, but I'm going with Perfect Mate, because I think it's a bigger project that will take more work than WW.

[capefeather]

Winter Wonderland just doesn't seem like a good way to explore the metagame. Perfect Mate

[Elegy]

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

My reasons haven't changed since the last poll, and no one has presented any major arguments that my points don't already address. It's all down to personal preference now, and I'd honestly be happy with either for this CAP.

I just want to say a few things about your five immediate ways to taking advantage of hail... First of all, don't get the wrong idea about what i'm saying, these are just my concerns.

For # 1-4: Quite obvious points. There already exists a move that takes advantage of hail, a typing that is resistant to hail, as well as an item/ ability that very well contributes to starting hail. What I foresee is a combination of as many of these as possible, thus creating a Pokemon whose task is limited, albeit well-done. Or, something new entirely whose task is still limited, albeit well-done. My point is that this concept allows very little options for reviving a tactic that is dying.

For # 5: Now, to create a Pokemon that revolves around common responses to hail means people need to have these common responses, and unfortunately, hail isn't common enough without the help of the Pokemon from points #1-4.

It's difficult to talk about this concept without poll-jumping, but I too will be happy with either.

[ssbbm]

I voted for Perfect Mate, only because I can't see how hail will work in the current metagame.

The reasons I see hail as impossible to abuse is because of the lack of Pokemon commonly used in the metagame that can abuse hail, other than using a 100% Blizzard, and, obviously, a 100% accurate Blizzard will not make Hail viable.

If no other Pokemon can abuse hail, then it follows that the new CAP must be extremely strong to make hail viable.

But why would it have to be then used on Hail teams? If it is strong enough to singlehandedly be equivalent to a Rain Dance team, then it will probably be strong enough to be used without hail, thus making it just become an overpowered sweeper.

[familyguyman]

I voted Perfect Mate as I have submit the idea in previous CAPs and hold it in high regards. Not a deep reason but it's there.

[jujuomi]

I voted for Perfect Mate this time. I still think that Winter Wonderland would make Hail teams less predictiable, even if its by the slightest. But Perfect Mate sounds like a better idea this time around. I'd be glad with either though.

[KidX]

Ok so I voted Perfect Mate because usually when I build my teams I always love to look for good teammates for my main sweeper(s) usually I find myself wanting more of a certain mate (ie: SalaZone) I have always wanted a pokemon that could do the jobs that 2 or maybe three mates could potentially do.

Most mates always lack a little something or need one less weakness, but if those mates had that little extra something it might get a little bit broken.

I just pray to God that the perfect mate won't be SR weak and it can play multiple different roles for a mate. Multitype sounds like a great ability for a perfect mate, but the perfect mate should still have some flaws that should be covered up by the other mate.

[Vaz]

I have voted for Perfect Mate.

It just seems so more viable and useful to have a pokemon that is able to benefit a team than have a pokemon to only benefit Hail teams. One good Hail abuser/supproter thought will not be enough to make Hail teams more viable, you require a couple of really good abusers or supporters that work effectively and not just a team of pokemon that are just, meh.

[smallvizier]

I still feel that these are (potentially) concepts with a lot of overlap. Let's say we choose Winter Wonderland; essentially, we're just finding a Perfect Mate for 'the Hail Pokemon'... notably Abomasnow and Walrein.

Indeed, because both the concepts are clearly popular, if Perfect Mate wins then I will be quite tempted to submit Abomasnow as its mate... thus getting to an extent the 'best of both worlds.'

The key difference for me, though, is that with PM we are only helping out one other pokemon. Selecting that poke will be really interesting, but after that I fear things could get a little boring. With 'helping hail' I just think there'd be so many more options, which would make all our decisions more interesting. Here are some more ways of helping Hail:

1. Countering Abomasnow's threats
2. Making a sweeper who can thrive once the Hail team removes the Dragons
3. A Ground-based Rapid Spinner who can remove Stealth Rock and also threaten Rocks and Fires
4. A wish- and heal bell-passer who can help the Hail team outlast its opponents

In short, these were my two favourite ideas from the beginning, but I'm voting for WW.

[SJCrew]

Perfect Mate is the clear winner here. The Winter Wonderland concept sounds a little too straightforward and obvious: give us a STAB Ice OU that can actually abuse Blizzard. Yawn. Hail as a whole is a limited playstyle and one Pokemon will not change that.

Perfect Mate is a little tricky, though. What in OU could really use this sort of partnership? How will this mate function as a standalone? I'm sure we'll address these questions later on, but it's interesting to think about now.

[Bynine]

Perfect Mate. As previously stated, Winter Wonderland is horribly boring and will probably not accomplish anything, given how hail is barely used in OU anyway.

[jc104]

Perfect Mate is the clear winner here. The Winter Wonderland concept sounds a little too straightforward and obvious: give us a STAB Ice OU that can actually abuse Blizzard. Yawn. Hail as a whole is a limited playstyle and one Pokemon will not change that.

Like most of the people who oppose the Winter Wonderland concept on the grounds that it it predictable, you show no sign of knowing how this concept can actually be achieved. I have said before and will say again that if this is an ice-type, the concept will fail. With Abomasnow and possibly Walrein or another Ice-type on the team, CaP 11 would merely add to the already common weaknesses of the team, for instance to SR and Rock-Type moves, or to Fire, Steel and Fighting-type moves. The only way I can see to make an offensive hail pokemon that actually works is to have a truly gargantuan Special Attack stat but with Blizzard as the only viable special move (maybe apart from really weak stuff like Hidden Power). It is no good simply to have a powerful Ice-type special attacker who can sweep with Ice beam, since this would destroy the concept and possibly be broken. In this respect, there is actually no need to have STAB on the move, since it is ensured that it is powerful and the main attack. This is all discounting the possibilty of inventing an ability, such as an Ice-type swift swim, although I would be against this.

The typing would probably end up as something that resists the weaknesses of the ice-type (such as Water/Fighting or Water/Ground or something) that can help counter Tyranitar and Infernape. Support moves for hail teams, such as Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin could also be considered. In other words, we could make it into a pokemon that is viable in both an offensive and a defensive role, or we could stick to one or the other. I have mentioned before that Hail is nearly viable in OU (hail teams do make it to the ladder every now and then), so it may not take all that much of a push to make it a fully viable tactic.

Sorry if any of this counts as poll jumping; I am merely trying to show that the concept is viable. It looks unlikely to be used anyway.

Indeed, because both the concepts are clearly popular, if Perfect Mate wins then I will be quite tempted to submit Abomasnow as its mate... thus getting to an extent the 'best of both worlds.'

Lol I thought of this too. The hilarious thing though is that if everyone maintained their voting allegiances, then Abomasnow would probably win (unless the perfect mate people are thinking of the same mate.) However, I then realised that Doug's concept requires it to be an OU pokemon, and regardless fuzznip would probably decide that this was against the spirit of the CAP voting system.

Edit @ Jumpluff:

I disagree with you that hail is nearly viable; the players that get hail up high are usually naturally skilled

Does this not mean that Hail is viable, but just difficult and possibly therefore not the best option? I don't claim to be naturally skilled, but it works OK for me (note that I never battle frequently enough to make the ladder) and yields a fairly similar win percentage to some of my more standard teams. There is most certainly a distinction between viable and optimal - at the moment it is a feasible strategy, just not the best strategy.

And I agree with you and many others that there is a large overlap - it's exactly the same as Perfect mate, but with Abomasnow, and as I have said, it is highly likely that this is the most popular pokemon to be used for that concept.

[jumpluff*]

Actually, while it shouldn't be an Ice-type because that would just add to hail's main problem (repeated exploitable weaknesses, especially in poorly-constructed hail teams, like you said), and also because we have Syclant and Krilowatt, simply adding a Pokémon that can cover the weaknesses of the rest of team wouldn't be sufficient enough without making the Pokémon broken, imo. I disagree with you that hail is nearly viable; the players that get hail up high are usually naturally skilled. The presence of Pokémon like Tyranitar makes weather as a whole in OU difficult to pull off compared to the available simpler strategies, even with a number of Pokémon that can lure and kill Tyranitar. Hail already has some ways around Tyranitar and yet it struggles. Hail teams are simply too predictable (just adding an extra Pokémon wouldn't be enough to widen this -- especially since it would just make the team build even more predictable by being so good to usually be included). Weather is simply limited imo; it's true of sun, rain, and sand as well. I just don't believe that we could make a non-broken Pokémon that could patch this up and cover the weaknesses to similar stall builds and various types of offense, and cover up the type weaknesses, yada yada yada. I'm also of the belief that if we did manage to cover some problems, it would be a waste. I think we can do more for the metagame with Perfect Mate.

I feel the exploration performed in hail would be limited compared to the core of Pokémon strategy (synergy), which is what Perfect Mate would explore.

[Raikaria]

Man, I vanish for a few days, and I miss concept polls 1 and 2...

Anyway, I voted for perfect match. As mentioned before, the Winder Wonderland concept will just create 2 types of teams in the CAP metagame... Hail teams, probobly with Abomasnow, CAP11, Walrein, Froslass/Glaceon, Rock Resist, Heatran, and teams that run Tyranitar to counteract it.

The prefect match concept will help us see if a certain pokemon which has obsticals for sweeping is actually viable... if given the right support. However, I feel for this concept, the pokemon in question would have to be in the BL/UU/NU teirs. Most OU pokemon are already capable of sweeping, unless they're walls, or supporters like Smergle.

I mean, it would have to be something with Sweeping potential, that can't for whatever reason.

Electrive? Already has Gyarados.
Heracross? Might as well design a mate for Lucario.
Calm Mind or Swords Dance Celebi? Wait, Heatran.

There are a few that come to mind, but it would be hard to design a perfect partner for them... Aerodactyl could do serious damage with Base 105 attack and 130 speed, and who can forget Azelf? But, nothing's gonna cover Aero's lack of an attack boosting move, and numerous weaknesses, and no teammate can prevent Tyranitar or Scizor swithing in on Azelf.

Would BL be acceptable for the concept, however, as the only metagame besides ubers where BL's can be used is OU, making them... pusedo-OU's.

In all honesty, I see issues with both concepts, but, I prefer a metagame that won't be stagnent to one that will be... if you qualify a most teams having the same 2 pokemon as much better than the same structure, and usually 3, maybe 4, of the same pokemon.

[jc104]

Anyway, I voted for perfect match. As mentioned before, the Winder Wonderland concept will just create 2 types of teams in the CAP metagame... Hail teams, probobly with Abomasnow, CAP11, Walrein, Froslass/Glaceon, Rock Resist, Heatran, and teams that run Tyranitar to counteract it.

This is very strange. Some people are claiming that hail will still not be viable and others complaining that it will be overcentralising. Any CAP that is carried out badly can become either of these things, so I really don't see the point here. There is a reason why there is a CAP revision process.

[Raikaria]

What I mean, is in playtesting, obviously, everyone's either going to be running CAP11 + Hail, or anti-hail, probobly with Tyranitar.

This is because everyone will either be testing the viability of CAP11, or will be attempting to stop it. There may be the odd team that isn't using Tyranitar, or Hail + CAP11, but these will be few and far between. Every playtest is centralised around the CAP, there's no denying it. It won't allow us to learn anything about the metagame, because the metagame will be so centralised around hail during playtesting that it won't be a realistic test of the metagame. All prior CAPS did not require a specific team build, CAP11, regardless of which way we go, will require at least 1 other pokemon on it's team, Abomasnow, or it's partner, so nomatter what, CAP11 playtesting is going to be centralised around not just the CAP, but a few OU pokemon as well, that the CAP is designed to require to function according to the concept.

I'm now going to have a look at Concept Polls 1 and 2 to see the other ideas that didn't make it this far, and the arguments put fowards.