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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 3

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Namso, Jul 9, 2010.

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Which concept should we use for CAP 11?

Poll closed Jul 10, 2010.
  1. Winter Wonderland

    40.5%
  2. Perfect Mate

    59.5%
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  1. Namso

    Namso
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    The final poll. This will decide CAP 11's concept.

    Due to this being a clickable poll, I will not allow posts such as "I voted for Smelly Dan." Put some substance into your posts. Discussion is strongly encouraged at this point. What did you like about the concept you voted? What did you not like about the concept you didn't vote? Show some support for your favourite!

    Concepts in the order they were submitted:

    This poll will close tomorrow at 2 pm EST.
  2. ~Golden Emp

    ~Golden Emp

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    I voted for DougJustDoug's idea, because the Hail one would make all of the teams playing at the same type Hail-oriented, lol. What I really like about the CAP Metagame is the variety that you find in every battle. There's unlikely to be 2 exactly alike teams battling each other. With Hail, all of the teams woudl carry at least Abomasnow, the new CAP, walrein and a Rock-type resist :P

    Doug's idea would also centralize it (but less than running hail), with every team running the same two Pokes.
  3. Azule

    Azule

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    Voted Perfect Mate for the same reasons as last time, but I dont really mind which one wins, they could both become pretty fun.
  4. Rising_Dusk

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    Once again, voted for Winter Wonderland.
    My reasons haven't changed since the last poll, and no one has presented any major arguments that my points don't already address. It's all down to personal preference now, and I'd honestly be happy with either for this CAP.

    Good luck, Doug; may the best concept win!
  5. Spenstar

    Spenstar

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    Personally, I voted for "Perfect Mate".

    Taking a look at the pokemon in OU, a few, such as Electivire and Weavile, are considered to only be OU because of n00bs who use them, according to friends of mine. While Electivire has a partner in Gyrardos, I think a "perfect partner" for Weavile could garner it some respect. After all, Weavile is my personal favorite pokemon of all time, and I'd love to see it used more competitively.

    A pokemon that could turn a "n00bs's guy" into a great pokemon competitively would work wonders for the metagame. Weavile is a wonderful counter to the dragons of OU and any other pokemon weak to ice moves or weak to Dark moves. Azelf, Salamence, Flygon, Dragonite, Revenankh, Fidgit, Kitsunoh, Cyclohm, and Colossoil all pack weaknesses to Weavile's STAB. That's a lot of pokemon in OU and CAP, and if Weavile got a partner that could make it truly great, those guys would be given a true run for their money.
  6. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I voted for Perfect Mate, mostly because I believe that Winter Wonderland would be really restricted in terms of producing a good product--Hail only provides a few specific benefits, name 100% accurate Blizzard and activation of Ice Body/Snow Cloak. In terms of using Hail well, there are only a few ways to really do it, and I'm concerned that it would lead to a Pokemon that is about as different from Syclant as Gallade is from Lucario.
  7. Apocalypse B-C

    Apocalypse B-C

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    Uh, Spenstar, neither Revenankh nor Kitsunoh is weak to a Weavile STAB; their secondary types cancel out the Dark weakness of their Ghost typing. Besides, the concept is supposed to be for the OU metagame, not the CAP metagame.

    ....anyway, I actually switched from Perfect to Mate to Winter Wonderland, mainly because I already sort of have an idea how it could be worked, heh. Well, I guess I just switched because I realized I like the idea of Hail getting more use. Simple enough, right?
  8. Quilph

    Quilph

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    I switched my vote to Perfect Mate, because as I thought it over, its possibilities seemed more varied and interesting. I will be perfectly happy with either one, but in the end I concluded there was more we could do with it. I fully agree with Spenstar's reasoning. This could be a great opportunity to find out why some OU Pokemon are "good but not great" and what types of a partner could remedy its faults. If this concept is chosen, we'll need to determine who, exactly, falls under the "good but not great" category, which could require its own discussion thread.
  9. TubaKing

    TubaKing

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    I still feel that Clean-up Kid was the best idea for CAP 11, but that of Winter Wonderland and Perfect Mate, Perfect Mate is the lesser of two evils.
    Hail is already quite viable in the OU metagame and having nothing but weather teams on the CAP ladder sounds rather miserable. I believe that Perfect Mate would have an arguably better, longer lasting effect on the OU/CAP metagame.
  10. EdgeHead

    EdgeHead

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    I'd be happy with both, but I'm going with Perfect Mate, because I think it's a bigger project that will take more work than WW.
  11. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Winter Wonderland just doesn't seem like a good way to explore the metagame. Perfect Mate
  12. Elegy

    Elegy

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    I just want to say a few things about your five immediate ways to taking advantage of hail... First of all, don't get the wrong idea about what i'm saying, these are just my concerns.

    For # 1-4: Quite obvious points. There already exists a move that takes advantage of hail, a typing that is resistant to hail, as well as an item/ ability that very well contributes to starting hail. What I foresee is a combination of as many of these as possible, thus creating a Pokemon whose task is limited, albeit well-done. Or, something new entirely whose task is still limited, albeit well-done. My point is that this concept allows very little options for reviving a tactic that is dying.

    For # 5: Now, to create a Pokemon that revolves around common responses to hail means people need to have these common responses, and unfortunately, hail isn't common enough without the help of the Pokemon from points #1-4.

    It's difficult to talk about this concept without poll-jumping, but I too will be happy with either.
  13. ssbbm

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    I voted for Perfect Mate, only because I can't see how hail will work in the current metagame.

    The reasons I see hail as impossible to abuse is because of the lack of Pokemon commonly used in the metagame that can abuse hail, other than using a 100% Blizzard, and, obviously, a 100% accurate Blizzard will not make Hail viable.

    If no other Pokemon can abuse hail, then it follows that the new CAP must be extremely strong to make hail viable.

    But why would it have to be then used on Hail teams? If it is strong enough to singlehandedly be equivalent to a Rain Dance team, then it will probably be strong enough to be used without hail, thus making it just become an overpowered sweeper.
  14. familyguyman

    familyguyman

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    I voted Perfect Mate as I have submit the idea in previous CAPs and hold it in high regards. Not a deep reason but it's there.
  15. jujuomi

    jujuomi

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    I voted for Perfect Mate this time. I still think that Winter Wonderland would make Hail teams less predictiable, even if its by the slightest. But Perfect Mate sounds like a better idea this time around. I'd be glad with either though.
  16. KidX

    KidX

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    Ok so I voted Perfect Mate because usually when I build my teams I always love to look for good teammates for my main sweeper(s) usually I find myself wanting more of a certain mate (ie: SalaZone) I have always wanted a pokemon that could do the jobs that 2 or maybe three mates could potentially do.

    Most mates always lack a little something or need one less weakness, but if those mates had that little extra something it might get a little bit broken.

    I just pray to God that the perfect mate won't be SR weak and it can play multiple different roles for a mate. Multitype sounds like a great ability for a perfect mate, but the perfect mate should still have some flaws that should be covered up by the other mate.
  17. Vaz

    Vaz

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    I have voted for Perfect Mate.

    It just seems so more viable and useful to have a pokemon that is able to benefit a team than have a pokemon to only benefit Hail teams. One good Hail abuser/supproter thought will not be enough to make Hail teams more viable, you require a couple of really good abusers or supporters that work effectively and not just a team of pokemon that are just, meh.
  18. smallvizier

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    I still feel that these are (potentially) concepts with a lot of overlap. Let's say we choose Winter Wonderland; essentially, we're just finding a Perfect Mate for 'the Hail Pokemon'... notably Abomasnow and Walrein.

    Indeed, because both the concepts are clearly popular, if Perfect Mate wins then I will be quite tempted to submit Abomasnow as its mate... thus getting to an extent the 'best of both worlds.'

    The key difference for me, though, is that with PM we are only helping out one other pokemon. Selecting that poke will be really interesting, but after that I fear things could get a little boring. With 'helping hail' I just think there'd be so many more options, which would make all our decisions more interesting. Here are some more ways of helping Hail:

    1. Countering Abomasnow's threats
    2. Making a sweeper who can thrive once the Hail team removes the Dragons
    3. A Ground-based Rapid Spinner who can remove Stealth Rock and also threaten Rocks and Fires
    4. A wish- and heal bell-passer who can help the Hail team outlast its opponents

    In short, these were my two favourite ideas from the beginning, but I'm voting for WW.
  19. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Perfect Mate is the clear winner here. The Winter Wonderland concept sounds a little too straightforward and obvious: give us a STAB Ice OU that can actually abuse Blizzard. Yawn. Hail as a whole is a limited playstyle and one Pokemon will not change that.

    Perfect Mate is a little tricky, though. What in OU could really use this sort of partnership? How will this mate function as a standalone? I'm sure we'll address these questions later on, but it's interesting to think about now.
  20. Bynine

    Bynine

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    Perfect Mate. As previously stated, Winter Wonderland is horribly boring and will probably not accomplish anything, given how hail is barely used in OU anyway.
  21. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Like most of the people who oppose the Winter Wonderland concept on the grounds that it it predictable, you show no sign of knowing how this concept can actually be achieved. I have said before and will say again that if this is an ice-type, the concept will fail. With Abomasnow and possibly Walrein or another Ice-type on the team, CaP 11 would merely add to the already common weaknesses of the team, for instance to SR and Rock-Type moves, or to Fire, Steel and Fighting-type moves. The only way I can see to make an offensive hail pokemon that actually works is to have a truly gargantuan Special Attack stat but with Blizzard as the only viable special move (maybe apart from really weak stuff like Hidden Power). It is no good simply to have a powerful Ice-type special attacker who can sweep with Ice beam, since this would destroy the concept and possibly be broken. In this respect, there is actually no need to have STAB on the move, since it is ensured that it is powerful and the main attack. This is all discounting the possibilty of inventing an ability, such as an Ice-type swift swim, although I would be against this.

    The typing would probably end up as something that resists the weaknesses of the ice-type (such as Water/Fighting or Water/Ground or something) that can help counter Tyranitar and Infernape. Support moves for hail teams, such as Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin could also be considered. In other words, we could make it into a pokemon that is viable in both an offensive and a defensive role, or we could stick to one or the other. I have mentioned before that Hail is nearly viable in OU (hail teams do make it to the ladder every now and then), so it may not take all that much of a push to make it a fully viable tactic.

    Sorry if any of this counts as poll jumping; I am merely trying to show that the concept is viable. It looks unlikely to be used anyway.

    Lol I thought of this too. The hilarious thing though is that if everyone maintained their voting allegiances, then Abomasnow would probably win (unless the perfect mate people are thinking of the same mate.) However, I then realised that Doug's concept requires it to be an OU pokemon, and regardless fuzznip would probably decide that this was against the spirit of the CAP voting system.

    Edit @ Jumpluff:
    Does this not mean that Hail is viable, but just difficult and possibly therefore not the best option? I don't claim to be naturally skilled, but it works OK for me (note that I never battle frequently enough to make the ladder) and yields a fairly similar win percentage to some of my more standard teams. There is most certainly a distinction between viable and optimal - at the moment it is a feasible strategy, just not the best strategy.

    And I agree with you and many others that there is a large overlap - it's exactly the same as Perfect mate, but with Abomasnow, and as I have said, it is highly likely that this is the most popular pokemon to be used for that concept.
  22. jumpluff

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    Actually, while it shouldn't be an Ice-type because that would just add to hail's main problem (repeated exploitable weaknesses, especially in poorly-constructed hail teams, like you said), and also because we have Syclant and Krilowatt, simply adding a Pokémon that can cover the weaknesses of the rest of team wouldn't be sufficient enough without making the Pokémon broken, imo. I disagree with you that hail is nearly viable; the players that get hail up high are usually naturally skilled. The presence of Pokémon like Tyranitar makes weather as a whole in OU difficult to pull off compared to the available simpler strategies, even with a number of Pokémon that can lure and kill Tyranitar. Hail already has some ways around Tyranitar and yet it struggles. Hail teams are simply too predictable (just adding an extra Pokémon wouldn't be enough to widen this -- especially since it would just make the team build even more predictable by being so good to usually be included). Weather is simply limited imo; it's true of sun, rain, and sand as well. I just don't believe that we could make a non-broken Pokémon that could patch this up and cover the weaknesses to similar stall builds and various types of offense, and cover up the type weaknesses, yada yada yada. I'm also of the belief that if we did manage to cover some problems, it would be a waste. I think we can do more for the metagame with Perfect Mate.

    I feel the exploration performed in hail would be limited compared to the core of Pokémon strategy (synergy), which is what Perfect Mate would explore.
  23. Raikaria

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    Man, I vanish for a few days, and I miss concept polls 1 and 2...

    Anyway, I voted for perfect match. As mentioned before, the Winder Wonderland concept will just create 2 types of teams in the CAP metagame... Hail teams, probobly with Abomasnow, CAP11, Walrein, Froslass/Glaceon, Rock Resist, Heatran, and teams that run Tyranitar to counteract it.

    The prefect match concept will help us see if a certain pokemon which has obsticals for sweeping is actually viable... if given the right support. However, I feel for this concept, the pokemon in question would have to be in the BL/UU/NU teirs. Most OU pokemon are already capable of sweeping, unless they're walls, or supporters like Smergle.

    I mean, it would have to be something with Sweeping potential, that can't for whatever reason.

    Electrive? Already has Gyarados.
    Heracross? Might as well design a mate for Lucario.
    Calm Mind or Swords Dance Celebi? Wait, Heatran.

    There are a few that come to mind, but it would be hard to design a perfect partner for them... Aerodactyl could do serious damage with Base 105 attack and 130 speed, and who can forget Azelf? But, nothing's gonna cover Aero's lack of an attack boosting move, and numerous weaknesses, and no teammate can prevent Tyranitar or Scizor swithing in on Azelf.

    Would BL be acceptable for the concept, however, as the only metagame besides ubers where BL's can be used is OU, making them... pusedo-OU's.

    In all honesty, I see issues with both concepts, but, I prefer a metagame that won't be stagnent to one that will be... if you qualify a most teams having the same 2 pokemon as much better than the same structure, and usually 3, maybe 4, of the same pokemon.
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    This is very strange. Some people are claiming that hail will still not be viable and others complaining that it will be overcentralising. Any CAP that is carried out badly can become either of these things, so I really don't see the point here. There is a reason why there is a CAP revision process.
  25. Raikaria

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    What I mean, is in playtesting, obviously, everyone's either going to be running CAP11 + Hail, or anti-hail, probobly with Tyranitar.

    This is because everyone will either be testing the viability of CAP11, or will be attempting to stop it. There may be the odd team that isn't using Tyranitar, or Hail + CAP11, but these will be few and far between. Every playtest is centralised around the CAP, there's no denying it. It won't allow us to learn anything about the metagame, because the metagame will be so centralised around hail during playtesting that it won't be a realistic test of the metagame. All prior CAPS did not require a specific team build, CAP11, regardless of which way we go, will require at least 1 other pokemon on it's team, Abomasnow, or it's partner, so nomatter what, CAP11 playtesting is going to be centralised around not just the CAP, but a few OU pokemon as well, that the CAP is designed to require to function according to the concept.

    I'm now going to have a look at Concept Polls 1 and 2 to see the other ideas that didn't make it this far, and the arguments put fowards.
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