Steel Arceus (Analysis) [GP 2/2]

hamiltonion

hamiltonion

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QC Approvals: (2/2)
-Trickroom
-Fireburn
GP Approvals: (0/2)
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[Overview]

<p>Clad in His steel armour, Arceus enters the battlefield ready to deliver His divine Judgment on His creations. Steel Arceus laughs at the horde of elemental moves which fail to pierce His impenetrable armour. Even the fangs of the mighty Dragon-types, whom He created to protect the world, fail to leave a scratch on Arceus's polished exterior. Although, Steel Arceus dislikes the quakes of the earth and the raging fires, one should never overlook Him, for truly no other forme of the Creator is as resilient as He.</p>

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Recover
move 3: Judgment
move 4: Roar / Thunder / Will-O-Wisp
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With its impressive defenses and wide array of resistances thanks to its Steel typing, Steel Arceus can pull off a Calm Mind set without breaking a sweat. Access to Recover prevents Arceus from being taken down easily and even allows it wall Pokemon such as Scarf Palkia after a few Calm Minds. Steel-type attacks have decent coverage in Ubers, but is resisted by Water- and Fire-types, which are fairly common. Roar can be used to phaze out opposing setup sweepers such as Bulk Up Dialga before they get out of control, and can be used to rack up some passive damage with entry hazards. Thunder can be used to deal with Pokemon that resist Steel-type attacks, such as Kyogre, but it is not recommended unless rain support from Kyogre can be provided. Will-O-Wisp allows Arceus to cripple physical attackers such as Zekrom and works very well thanks to Arceus's excellent Speed. The combination of Calm Mind and Will-O-Wisp makes Steel Arceus very hard to kill. Thanks to Steel Arceus's immunity to Toxic and access to Recover, it can function as a deadly stallbreaker capable of defeating stalling machines like Blissey one-on-one.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs are designed to grant Arceus maximum bulk, while also giving it enough Speed to tie with other offensive variants of Arceus. Speed and HP EVs can be transferred to Special Attack if immediate firepower is preferred over durability; 116 EVs with a neutral nature is the absolute minimum Speed you should run with Steel Arceus, though, so it can still outspeed Garchomp. A fully defensive EV set can be run by moving the Speed EVs into Defense and using a Bold nature.</p>

<p>Kyogre makes a fantastic partner to Steel Arceus thanks to its ability to check Groudon. The rain Kyogre brings along also negates Steel Arceus's weakness to the Fire-type moves and allows it to use Thunder without any chance of a miss. Kyogre can also check most variants of Reshiram and Ho-Oh, both of which pose a huge threat to Steel Arceus's existence. Steel Arceus pairs up well with almost any Dragon-type since it can take Ice- and Dragon-type hits for them, while they can take Fire-, Water-, Electric-, and usually even Ground-type moves for it. Rayquaza deserves a special mention since it is immune to Earthquake and has excellent synergy with Steel Arceus on the whole.</p>

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Iron Head
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
move 4: Recover
item: Iron Plate
nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Although, Steel-type STAB is not the best in Ubers, with many of the common Pokemon in the tier ( Kyogre) resisting it, Steel Arceus can still be a potent user of Swords Dance. After a Swords Dance, Arceus's Attack stat hits a magnificent 744. Iron Head provides a reliable STAB and the 30% chance of a flinch is icing on the cake. Earthquake has excellent neutral coverage in Ubers in tandem with Iron Head, being resisted by only a handful of Pokemon. ExtremeSpeed can be used over Earthquake to deal with faster sweepers such as Mewtwo, but is not nearly as powerful as Earthquake. In the last slot, Recover allows Arceus to abuse its bulk to the fullest and gives it plenty of opportunities to set up.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A more defensive spread of 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Speed can be used to give Arceus some staying power. Outrage can be used to destroy the plethora of Dragon-types in Ubers. However, a Steel Arceus locked into Outrage is easy to revenge kill. Since supporting Groudon have a field day with this set, offensive variants of Kyogre and Palkia are great teammates. Just like the previous set, most Dragon-types make good teammates for Steel Arceus since they resist most of each other's weaknesses. However, one must be cautious about pairing up Dialga or Zekrom with Steel Arceus, since it compounds the Ground-type weakness.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Arceus's extensive movepool allows it no dearth of options. Cosmic Power can be used to boost both of Arceus's defensive stats and works well with Steel Arceus's numerous resistances. Perish Song can be used to defeat end-game sweepers such as Kyogre and Dark Arceus. It can also be used to create an opportunity to set up for a teammate like Rayquaza. Earth Power can be used to put a dent in Heatran, but has no real use otherwise.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Any Pokemon capable of dishing out powerful Fire-, Fighting-, or Ground-type attacks can be a threat to Steel Arceus. Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Groudon can all obliterate Steel Arceus with their STAB moves. Groudon is especially dangerous since the sunlight it brings powers up the Fire-type moves that Steel Arceus hates. Heatran can switch on Will-O-Wisp, grab a boost and do a large chunk of damage with Flamethrower. If the sun is up, Mewtwo can fry Steel Arceus with Fire Blast, OHKOing it easily. Kyogre, Ground Arceus, Fire Arceus, and Fighting Arceus can all engage in a Calm Mind war with Steel Arceus and eventually win thanks to their natural type advantage. Garchomp and Terrakion can turn Steel Arceus to scrap metal with their powerful STAB moves, but they cannot switch in. Choice Scarf Heracross, although rare, can outspeed Steel Arceus and can even stomach an unboosted Judgment if it needs to; in retaliation, it has no problem bringing Steel Arceus down with its STAB Close Combat. Steel-types such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn can be a nuisance to the Swords Dance set; Skarmory, in particular, laughs at all of Steel Arceus's moves and can phaze it out with Whirlwind.</p>
 
Ok this has quite a few issues I'll try to help you fix.

First of all, Modest should not even be considered a slash on any of these sets, and certainly not the primary slash.
EVs: 248 HP, 8 SpAtk, 252 Speed
Click to expand...
This is one of the many possible spreads, but you need to seperate them by slashes not commas.
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Speed
Click to expand...
This is how it should look.

Dragon Pulse should not have any sort of slash. It's just not that good. The final move's slashes should be Flamethrower / Roar with Focus Blast and/or Earth Power mention in Additional Comments for Heatran.

Steelceus can be great as a supporter, but to be honest, WoW is fine mention in the AC of the Calm Mind set along with a more defensive spread. This eliminates the 2 middle sets you have posted as there is a lot of overlap. Stealth Rock can be mentioned in OC.

For the SD set I would rearrange the order of the natures, and remeber it's
nature: Jolly / Adamant
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not
nature: Jolly, Adamant
Click to expand...

I'd like other QC members to weigh in on this before I stamp as there are some more issues such as
Reshiram is not as threatening to calm mind variants
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Specs Blue Fire in the sun OHKOes +2 SpD Steel Arceus (this is assuming you Calm Mind on the switch and the attack...). Specs Blue Fire can even 2HKO +6 Steelceus in the sun (this is obviously not practical, just an idea of the power).
 
Major issues in this analysis. I'll cover the ones firecape didn't (sometimes I'll just re-mention it because it's important!)

- Merge offensive Calm Mind and Defensive Calm Mind sets into one, get rid of Dragon Pulse, slash in Roar and Thunder. Stick with the offensive Calm Mind's spread. Get rid of Modest. Then, mention Will-o-Wisp in additional comments. GET RID OF DRAGON PULSE

- What on earth is Steel Croceus? Cromat didn't make the set and it surely does not even resemble any of his sets

- For the support set it just feels like you're just throwing stuff in there - though I can't really explain why. It should be moved to the last set in the analysis, due to its relative rarity but also due to competition with a sizable chunk of other Pokemon in terms of supporting. Also please explain the EVs.

- Get rid of Adamant on Swords Dance set, make Earthquake the primary slash.

While being weak to fire, one of the most common attacking types in Ubers, as well as ground- and fighting-type attacks, its impressive base 120 HP and balanced 120 defenses allow it to take even super-effective hits, while healing away the damage afterward, while also being able to dish out hits with impressive 120/120 offenses and a complimentary base 120 speed.
Click to expand...
This is ridiculously long. It has base 120s in everything so you don't need to mention it multiple times.

- What is Shadow Ball doing in the Additional Comments section? Super effective Shadow Ball is weaker than neutral Judgment.

- Why is Roar in optional changes when it's already a main option on also a main set.

- Dream World section is missing


In the future, you should make a skeleton before writing down the analysis so it's easier to change.
 
More Fixes:

EVs spreads:

Go 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Speed Timid nature on all but the SD set. For the SD set, use 252 Atk/ 4 Def / 252 Speed with Jolly as the primary spread with 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Speed mentioned in Additional Comments.

Major format issues, look at the other threads for an example on how to set this up.

Merge the Calm Mind sets, support set can stay. I'd probably slash in Perish Song on the support set with Stealth Rock as Arceus is one of the few viable users of said move and it halts last-Pokemon stat boosters.

In all honesty, there is a lot of things about this write-up that aren't up to quality standards. I'll give you a couple days to fix it, but otherwise it may have to be reassigned to someone with a bit more experience.
 
OK, rundown of changes:
-combined the calm mind sets
-trashed the support set, but mentioned it in OC
-removed all the useless moves
-simply said that he has 120 all around
-learned the difference between commas and slashes
-changed the order of moves where needed

Thank you so much, guys. I apologize that it needed that much help. I think I fixed the problems that you outlined. Is there anything more to the dreamworld section? And should I point out the fact that Arceus is now usable with full EVs? Or is that well-known enough now?

Thanks again.
 
Server_Crash said:
OK, rundown of changes:
-combined the calm mind sets
-trashed the support set, but mentioned it in OC
-removed all the useless moves
-simply said that he has 120 all around
-learned the difference between commas and slashes
-changed the order of moves where needed

Thank you so much, guys. I apologize that it needed that much help. I think I fixed the problems that you outlined. Is there anything more to the dreamworld section? And should I point out the fact that Arceus is now usable with full EVs? Or is that well-known enough now?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

For now, I would mention it in the overview - the Ubers regulars all know this already, and I'm sure a majority of the people who read UT do as well. Still, people who are unfamiliar with 5th Gen Ubers may not know that.

quick edit:

For your EVs, it should be: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed (space before and after the / in each stat)
 
I would try a seccondary spread to outrun Latias / Latios like alot other spreads. his can give you a bit extra bulk. 252 HP / 176 Spe / 82 SAtk is just an example. This gives you a bit more attacking power too. I would possibly mention this spread if you could.
 
No Soul Dew. Lati@s aren't a concern. Mention a bulky spread on the SD set, though, and also mention a spread of Timid 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 Spe, which is enough for Garchomp.

Slashes need to be spaced. Earthquake / Extremespeed > Earthquake/Extremespeed.
 
I think on the first set, its worth mentioning the Toxic immunity that the Steel typing gives making it a near perfect stallbreaker, since once it gets down to being the last pokemon stall teams can no longer phaze it, and often cannot do anything to it at all.

Edit: I think in the DW section its worth mentioning that Shandera easily traps and kills and this, so it isnt nearly as good as it is in the wifi tier.
 
Server_Crash said:
Giratina-O is immune to fighitng and ground attacks, and resists fire, but does not have very good defenses
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What? Giratina-O has about equal overall defense to Lugia. Giratina-O may have lower defenses than Giratina-A but it is still impressive.

Also, Perish Song, Curse, Set up boosters(Kyogre, Shock Latias), Ho-Oh, Zekrom, Garchomp, Terakion and Nattorei are pretty common in stall teams. Steel Arceus loses to all of them one-on-one unless it uses the right coverage moves or Toxic in Latias's case.
 
Lugia has reliable recovery to supplement its lower HP, but it has much higher defenses than Giratina-O.

By one-on-one, do you mean as a last pokemon scenario? Arceus can roar away any boosters when they aren't the last pokemon.

Terakion takes 102.5% - 121.1% from judgement with no investment whatsoever. It also takes 105% - 124.8% from iron head with 252 attack EVs.

Garchomp does stop the calm mind set cold, but it takes 43% - 51.1% from a +0 iron head which is an almost guaranteed 2HKO with rocks, so it needs to predict right in order to switch in and non-scarf sets need to worry about the 30% flinch chance.

Zekrom and Ho-oh have already been noted as problematic, and if Arceus needs to one-on-one Nattorei for some reason, I don't see how Nattorei can win if Arceus packs recover and a boosting move. A +6 Judgment deals 58% - 68.8% against calm 252 / 252 Natt and a +6 Earthquake deals slightly less than 49.6% - 59.2% against a bold 252 / 252 version, while Nattorei can only paralyze it and set up leech seed. Yes, Natt can beat a swords dancer that doesn't have earthquake, but when is Natt really going to one-on-one Arceus?
 
Server_Crash said:
Lugia has reliable recovery to supplement its lower HP, but it has much higher defenses than Giratina-O.

By one-on-one, do you mean as a last pokemon scenario? Arceus can roar away any boosters when they aren't the last pokemon.

Terakion takes 102.5% - 121.1% from judgement with no investment whatsoever. It also takes 105% - 124.8% from iron head with 252 attack EVs.

Garchomp does stop the calm mind set cold, but it takes 43% - 51.1% from a +0 iron head which is an almost guaranteed 2HKO with rocks, so it needs to predict right in order to switch in and non-scarf sets need to worry about the 30% flinch chance.

Zekrom and Ho-oh have already been noted as problematic, and if Arceus needs to one-on-one Nattorei for some reason, I don't see how Nattorei can win if Arceus packs recover and a boosting move. A +6 Judgment deals 58% - 68.8% against calm 252 / 252 Natt and a +6 Earthquake deals slightly less than 49.6% - 59.2% against a bold 252 / 252 version, while Nattorei can only paralyze it and set up leech seed. Yes, Natt can beat a swords dancer that doesn't have earthquake, but when is Natt really going to one-on-one Arceus?
Click to expand...


You said Giratina-O has not very good defenses in the first place which is false. I just said it has comparable physical bulk to Lugia and has nothing to do with recovery move. If that's the case, I could say Lugia has a reliable recovery move and better defenses than Giratina since Giratina lacks recovery and horrible weaknesses plus lower base defenses.

If Arceus can roar Kyogre out, he can win, but a burn will annoy Arceus. A smart opponent can just bring out another counter like Chansey after the Roar to stall you out of Recovers. Nattorei can fare well in this situation. If you kept on Roaring, you will take burn damage and Leech Seed + the hit you are going to take after you Roar the opponent out.

Terakion cannot take an attack but once he is in, Arceus is dead. Also, a smart player can just bring Terakion in on a Calm Mind or Recover and KO Arceus.

Garchomp doesn't need to take an Iron Head. In stall teams, there are always some extra checks. Nattorei could be paired with Garchomp since they have some good typing synergy. Even if Garchomp takes an Iron Head, Earthquake will do major damage. All one needs is a Seismic Toss from Blissey then go to Garchomp for the OHKO.

Also Doryuuzu sometimes appear in stall teams. His Earthquake 2HKOes all Steel Arceus at worst or OHKO with Life Orb while resisting Judgment and immune to Thunder.
 
1) Why on earth is Arceus determined to plow through the opponent's Kyogre, Chansey, and Nattorei?

2) Terakion only outspeeds with a scarf, and a max attack Terakion does 83.07% - 97.97% to a no defense, 248 HP EVs Arceus. Have fun bringing him in on an excessive recover.

3) Yes, Garchomp can damage Arceus with earthquake(was this even in question?), but it only 69.07% - 81.72% (OHKO? Where?) to the same Arceus and it needs a scarf to be faster and still needs to worry about iron head's 2HKO (and flinch hax if not carrying a scarf). While ScarfChomp can safely revenge, it can only kill off weakened Arceus, and any non-scarf Chomp is rarely 2HKO'ed (much more common with rocks) by Iron Head adn you still can't ignore the flinch hax.

4) Life Orb Doryuuzu is almost always guaranteed an OHKO (and outspeeds in sand), but non-orb variants fall into the same boat as Chomp. It needs sand to beat Arceus, and with the weather-oriented meta, there's a good chance that sand is not in play when Arceus comes into play. Tyranitar will get destroyed by a steel move, and switching to Hippowdon will make it pretty obvious that you want to kill Arceus with Dory (team preview does exist). 0 Atk EV earthquake from Arceus is a solid 2HKO on Dory, and with 252 EVs it can rarely net an OHKO. I don't see Dory as a reliable counter without sand, as it needs to pray that Arceus doesn't have earthquake and some attack EVs (Iron head + EQ is guaranteed to KO, I believe, with jolly and 252 atk EVs), and god forbid that it used swords dance. With sand, I do agree that the rare Dory counters Arceus, but the Arceus user can see Dory coming from a mile away with team preview and the fact that sand already needs to be up.
 
1) You said Arceus wanted to Roar all of them out. Kyogre will force Arceus out then so you are not sweeping at all. You said Steel Arceus can easily sweep Stall teams and I gave you a few that checks it.

2) This is dumb. All Terakions in stall teams are Scarfed. No OHKO? I didnt say it will but after some prior damage like Spikes it will. Stall Teams always use Spikes support so Arceus will not be at full health when he comes out.

3) The only Garchomp set seen in Stall is the Scarf set. He might not be OHKOing full health Steel Arceus, but after a bit of damage he will. Also, all it takes is a simple Seismic Toss from either Chansey or Blissey to put Steel Arceus in KO range.

4) Doryuuzu is always used in the sand. A smart player can just keep Hippowdon or Tyranitar alive. Also with Balloon, you can't Earthquake it while a +2 Earthquake OHKOes.
Also Hippowdon beats Steel Arceus one-on-one unless you have some lucky crit or using Will-o-wisps.

All these Scenarios are just to say that Steel Arceus cannot simply rampage through stall teams. Steel Arceus needs proper team support and cannot KO a well-built Uber stall team by itself. Also Scarf Hihidaruma kills all Steel Arceus set. Heatran kills Earthquakeless versions. Dialga can come in on anything and Fire Blast Steel Arceus for the kill unless you Calm Mind on the switch in. Heracross deserves a mention as well since i doubt Steel Arceus likes taking a Close Combat. Heracross doesn't even mind Will-o-wisps.
 
trickroom said:
1) You said Arceus wanted to Roar all of them out.
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I said that Arceus wanted to roar out anything that tried to boost alongside it, not that it wanted to roar out all of them. Actually, I think that I was replying to your question about how Arceus wowuld deal with set up boosters (Kyogre, Shock Latias). Yep, I was.

trickroom said:
4) Doryuuzu is always used in the sand. A smart player can just keep Hippowdon or Tyranitar alive. Also with Balloon, you can't Earthquake it while a +2 Earthquake OHKOes.
Click to expand...

I realize that Dory is always used in the sand, but in the rare scenario that a Kyogre or Groudon (or Abomasnow) came in after T-tar or Hippo left, Arceus doesn't fear any Dory that switches into an iron head (which also pops a balloon btw)

trickroom said:
All these Scenarios are just to say that Steel Arceus cannot simply rampage through stall teams. Steel Arceus needs proper team support and cannot KO a well-built Uber stall team by itself.
Click to expand...

I'm confused, very confused. When did I ever say that Arceus was the only pokemon on its team? Or that it could single-handedly sweep through stall teams? I was providing those calcs for you because you said that Arceus would lose to your laundry list or stall pokes one-one-one. I never said that Arceus would beat 6 poke sin a row, I was simply correcting your false claims that Arceus would lose to all of those pokes one-on-one.
 
Kyogre, Scarf Garchomp and Latias beat Steel Arceus one-on-one
Also, it should be mentioned in the counters section that Scarf Heracross, Terakion, Garchomp, Shandera, Hihidaruma, Heatran and Doryuuzu can revenge kill Steel Arceus.
If you lack ground moves, Heatran will eat you up
 
Still some format issues.

Taken from first set:

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Recover
move 3: Judgment
move 4: Roar / Thunder
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

This is the correct order.
 
Any thoughts on Scarf Terakion being an effective revenge killer? STAB Close Combat is a clear OHKO, and always outspeeds with a scarf.
 
I believe trickroom has been trying to prove that scarf tera is a great check to steel arceus for quite a while now.
 
Will-O-Wisp might deserve a slash on the CM set alongside Roar and Thunder, as it gives Arceus a way to deal with physical attacks that threaten it. I use the variant with Roar on my Uber team, and it does pretty well against all save SE physical moves... I figure that's a good way to remedy that. I'm still testing, so evidence is inconclusive, but my theorymon instinct suggests that it could work.
 
No pure support set?? Something like:

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Recover
move 3: Judgment / Ice Beam
move 4: Roar
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe


Your format is still wrong. SpAtk needs to be SpD, Speed needs to be Spe. The system doesn't recognise SpAtk or Speed.
 
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