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2013 Smogon Fantasy Hockey
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
Honestly PPPs never really get past 15 too often, so splitting up the stats would be a real bad idea.
What about Special Team Goals and Special Team Assists instead of PPP and +/-? That would combine PPG/SHG in 1 category and then PPA/SHA in another.
Don't support breaking up PPP for the same reason captain kishimoto already said. I still don't even think widening it to special teams will solve that problem. I'm fine with how it is now tbh. Blocked shots are the only stat I think could be a pretty decent addition over +/-, but I would rather keep it how it is.
Iirc Ray / wer / kishi / carl dont mind keeping +-; justin / aldaron / vincent / synre would prefer something over +-. I'm not sure where jackal / psycho / pookar / gr33n stand but would like people to confirm.
To emphasize justin's point, a stats' viability for a fantasy category should be based on degree of predictability. Measuring degrees of predictability is essentially what skill in fantasy amounts to. If you look at every other category (maybe because every other category is only additive?), there is a decently high degree of predictability across the board.
+- however is terribly unpredictable, not simply in a week to week basis but overall. The Lidstrom example isn't simple an exception its one that happens to many good players across the board.
Essentially, lack of acceptable standard of predictability = bad stat.
Blocked shots (while I don't necessarily love what they do to boost the 4 d slots) have a very high degree of predictability.
PPG / PPA also do but occur less frequently and are therefore less dependable / less significant datasets (but still far better than +-).
Honestly, we're looking to improve the league...can you guys at least expand on why you prefer a statistically proven low predictable category (+-) is any better than a high degree of predictability category (blocked shots)?
To emphasize justin's point, a stats' viability for a fantasy category should be based on degree of predictability. Measuring degrees of predictability is essentially what skill in fantasy amounts to. If you look at every other category (maybe because every other category is only additive?), there is a decently high degree of predictability across the board.
+- however is terribly unpredictable, not simply in a week to week basis but overall. The Lidstrom example isn't simple an exception its one that happens to many good players across the board.
Essentially, lack of acceptable standard of predictability = bad stat.
Blocked shots (while I don't necessarily love what they do to boost the 4 d slots) have a very high degree of predictability.
PPG / PPA also do but occur less frequently and are therefore less dependable / less significant datasets (but still far better than +-).
Honestly, we're looking to improve the league...can you guys at least expand on why you prefer a statistically proven low predictable category (+-) is any better than a high degree of predictability category (blocked shots)?
It's less that I support +/- as a category and more that there are no viable replacements that we could get a majority of the league to vote yes on. I'll adapt and adjust to whatever the rules are in this league and I'm sure everyone else will, too. I doubt many of us are so attached to the current format to the point that we'd refuse to change.
I'll concede that the one positive of removing +/- is that nobody has a team that will be geared toward winning that stat on a consistent basis year in and year out. If we're going to swap out a category, I definitely agree that this is the one to swap out. But for what? Personally, I'd like more categories, not less, so I'm against dropping to 8 stats.
Blocked Shots: This is fine and probably would be my first choice (and I have a team of pansies) but it's yet another stat that just rewards man games played. We have shots and hits already where if you have more starts, you've got an inherent edge in winning that category. I realize team schedules and injuries and whatever play a factor in all stats but the impact is felt more in categories like shots and hits. We'd be adding a third category with blocks that is more heavily influenced by games played. Not sure if that's really ideal.
Split PPP into PPG & PPA: I think having PPP split is probably more viable when you have larger, deeper teams. I don't think there's quite enough scoring on the power play in our format to justify the separation. Using my team as an example, I've had 197 PPP this year, not counting this week, and that's the most in the league. This averages out to 9.85 PPP per week. If you split this stat, we're now looking at maybe 3 PPG and 6 PPA per week.. probably tilted more toward the assists in the case of my team, but tilted toward assists by default of helpers being, in general, twice as common as goals due to the presence of secondary assists. We have a lot of ties and low results in the goalie wins stat already, do we want to add to that? Sure, some teams will be more geared toward PPG and others, like mine, to PPA but I'm not sure that the already low frequency of power play points justifies this separation.
Shutouts (or any other goalie stat): LOL, no. We already removed this to lessen the impact of goalies. We'd just be magnifying their influence by adding this in over a skater stat.
Points: Since we're discussing PPP, might as well touch on this as a stat. I think this could be viable in the sense that I'm always annoyed when I crush someone in assists but lose goals by one. With points as a category you'd at least be rewarded for your team's overall offensive output. Counterpoint: this is a very redundant stat.
SHP (shorthanded points) or GWG: I think these are so rare that we'd be seeing a lot of 2-1 or 1-0 victories in this category.. or even a lot of 0-0 which is pretty shitty. Maybe a bit better in GWG but considering some teams struggle to get 10 regular goals in a week, probably not the best idea.
SH%: Shooting percentage is one stat that intrigues me because of what I've seen this year.. some of Synre's terrible goal scoring weeks come to mind. I'd be open to considering this one as a stat as it actually devalues the quantity of shots somewhat and values quality.
Faceoffs Won: Another stat that values man games to a degree but not as much as blocks. Also adds value to centers and wings that play center or take a lot of draws. Not sure adding more value to forwards is necessary...
EDIT: PIM could also make a return I suppose..
So... tl;dr... show me the viable replacement/argument a majority of the participants can support and I'll go along with it and adapt.
List of available yahoo stats from this year: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/sp...les-11.html;_ylt=AtarwapW9UYE7PWfXINnmzeZ93hG
I'll concede that the one positive of removing +/- is that nobody has a team that will be geared toward winning that stat on a consistent basis year in and year out. If we're going to swap out a category, I definitely agree that this is the one to swap out. But for what? Personally, I'd like more categories, not less, so I'm against dropping to 8 stats.
Blocked Shots: This is fine and probably would be my first choice (and I have a team of pansies) but it's yet another stat that just rewards man games played. We have shots and hits already where if you have more starts, you've got an inherent edge in winning that category. I realize team schedules and injuries and whatever play a factor in all stats but the impact is felt more in categories like shots and hits. We'd be adding a third category with blocks that is more heavily influenced by games played. Not sure if that's really ideal.
Split PPP into PPG & PPA: I think having PPP split is probably more viable when you have larger, deeper teams. I don't think there's quite enough scoring on the power play in our format to justify the separation. Using my team as an example, I've had 197 PPP this year, not counting this week, and that's the most in the league. This averages out to 9.85 PPP per week. If you split this stat, we're now looking at maybe 3 PPG and 6 PPA per week.. probably tilted more toward the assists in the case of my team, but tilted toward assists by default of helpers being, in general, twice as common as goals due to the presence of secondary assists. We have a lot of ties and low results in the goalie wins stat already, do we want to add to that? Sure, some teams will be more geared toward PPG and others, like mine, to PPA but I'm not sure that the already low frequency of power play points justifies this separation.
Shutouts (or any other goalie stat): LOL, no. We already removed this to lessen the impact of goalies. We'd just be magnifying their influence by adding this in over a skater stat.
Points: Since we're discussing PPP, might as well touch on this as a stat. I think this could be viable in the sense that I'm always annoyed when I crush someone in assists but lose goals by one. With points as a category you'd at least be rewarded for your team's overall offensive output. Counterpoint: this is a very redundant stat.
SHP (shorthanded points) or GWG: I think these are so rare that we'd be seeing a lot of 2-1 or 1-0 victories in this category.. or even a lot of 0-0 which is pretty shitty. Maybe a bit better in GWG but considering some teams struggle to get 10 regular goals in a week, probably not the best idea.
SH%: Shooting percentage is one stat that intrigues me because of what I've seen this year.. some of Synre's terrible goal scoring weeks come to mind. I'd be open to considering this one as a stat as it actually devalues the quantity of shots somewhat and values quality.
Faceoffs Won: Another stat that values man games to a degree but not as much as blocks. Also adds value to centers and wings that play center or take a lot of draws. Not sure adding more value to forwards is necessary...
EDIT: PIM could also make a return I suppose..
So... tl;dr... show me the viable replacement/argument a majority of the participants can support and I'll go along with it and adapt.
List of available yahoo stats from this year: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/sp...les-11.html;_ylt=AtarwapW9UYE7PWfXINnmzeZ93hG
Honestly, the only thing I would really consider a good replacement for +/- is blocked shots (which seems to be not be counted based on the link Carl has provided). If that isn't something that's plausible for the coming season(s), I'd rather keep +/- as the other stats aren't much better, and I'm not in favour of just killing it off altogether. I'm pretty sure I'm not biased being last in the league in +/-, so ^^
Well 'Hits' aren't in the list either and I believe we're using them this year.
Well, then I guess this is the "real" one then (it has hits and
blocks!):
http://hockey.fantasysports.yahoo.com/hockey/details/stat_categories
blocks!):
http://hockey.fantasysports.yahoo.com/hockey/details/stat_categories
pookar
Banned deucer.
I was mostly joking about shutouts, and especially in a man of my position would not like to hand out free categories to my opponents >:(
Shot percentage seems interesting, im just wondering about the sample size aspect of the stat. is it consistent enough to be a weekly stat? it seems like the average goals/shots per week is around 10-12 to 100 shots
i would be very much in favor of adding Blocks and S%, and even PIM. lowering the amount of skater stats would be exactly like adding shutouts, and you guys already removed those.
Shot percentage seems interesting, im just wondering about the sample size aspect of the stat. is it consistent enough to be a weekly stat? it seems like the average goals/shots per week is around 10-12 to 100 shots
i would be very much in favor of adding Blocks and S%, and even PIM. lowering the amount of skater stats would be exactly like adding shutouts, and you guys already removed those.
OrbitingDeath
formerly SkylarGreen
If we are going to replace +-, I prefer PIM as an extra stat
But if the most want to keep it the same, I wouldn´t mind either.
I´ll just see what everybody wants.
But if the most want to keep it the same, I wouldn´t mind either.
I´ll just see what everybody wants.
there goes my trade for seguin plan.
carl articulated my thoughts perfectly
i also think you are overstating how unpredictable +- is. If you are have a player on a good team, chances are he will have a decent +-, its that simple. There is obviously massive variability, both from player to player on the team and from week to week, but still I feel like you can just look at a teams GF/GA and special teams and have some sort of idea. It is no surprise I have one of the best +- teams in our league when you look at my players... almost every player I own is on a winning team. I always factor that in when I consider a player, and I think it is an important part of fantasy.
For example if you think gaborik and kessel are going to have similar offensive numbers, you lean toward gaborik because he is on the better team.
i also think you are overstating how unpredictable +- is. If you are have a player on a good team, chances are he will have a decent +-, its that simple. There is obviously massive variability, both from player to player on the team and from week to week, but still I feel like you can just look at a teams GF/GA and special teams and have some sort of idea. It is no surprise I have one of the best +- teams in our league when you look at my players... almost every player I own is on a winning team. I always factor that in when I consider a player, and I think it is an important part of fantasy.
For example if you think gaborik and kessel are going to have similar offensive numbers, you lean toward gaborik because he is on the better team.
I don't think "being on a good team in real life" is really something that is good to have a stat rewarding, especially since it has rollover in all the other stats anyway since due it being easier to produce on a good team. It's still volatile on a night-by-night basis anyway, which is what matters since we're a head to head league: good teams still lose. It's a shitty stat but most of the replacements are even worse right now.
Still not sure why I would give a better Fantasy version of Henrik Sedin up for Henrik Sedin....make a reasonable deal and it goes through, trade me a slightly less viable player in our league for a multi-positional player....nope
I didnt make that decision until today Vin, otherwise I would have loved to trade. Perhaps we can still make it happen with league approval?
Drop -> Add = Add <- Drop