I kind of think the tierlist will be huge or non existent save for Ubers, Standard, and "Everything Else". So many pokemon are more viable now, and with the addition of people being able to see each others teams before battle standard sets probably wont exist, or be too predictable. It's gonna be interesting, nonetheless.
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A completely new Standard OU metagame?
- Thread starter red12345
- Start date
I agree with Gabe. This Gen, I think, will scrounge up some of the undesirables (NU's) and place them proudly in the UU and possibly BL/OU tiers. I forgot Sabeleye (However the hell you spell it) was a pokemon. Then I heard some theorymonning about it's newfound ability, Mischevious Heart coupled with Fake Out, Taunt, Metal Burst. It could prove to be a fantastic Anti Lead.
Yeah, because Outrage on Mence didn't matter whatsoever.
This basically happens every single generation. My only fear is that the Ubers will become Ou, OU to UU and So on because of the supposed lack of an initial banlist (by popular vote thus far in the thread though the 'seniors' may be able to over haul it though it does not seem as if they wish to. THey appear to agree with the lack of an initial banlist, though they themself said 'if everything is broken than nothing is broken')(lol that was the longest parenthesis rant ever, prove me wrong)
I haven't paid enough attention to the patterns in Tiering over the years, so I may not be able to contribute much.
The name of each tier: "Overused, Borderline, Underused, Never Used" suggest that the player determine which pokes fall into whichever tier. We decide whether or not we want Luvdisc/Spinda in OU or not. But because no body uses them they are sent to NU where they belong. Ubers we have less control over because competitive players would gladly abuse their 110/120/130/(#>100)/(#>100)/(#>100) and so the smogon "officials" intervene to prevent flagrant abuse of those poke's. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think we have too much to worry about. The players determine the tiers.
I still can't believe people think Drought and Drizzle are going to be OK just because they're not Groudon and Kyogre... I mean really people? Infinite weather is broken, the only thing Drought and Drizzle Ninetales and Politoed are going to bring to the table is a way to keep your weather up in Ubers longer, or in the VGC. Obviously Ninetales and Politoed aren't that threatening but infinite rain and sun are just ridiculous.
People like to bring up how Sandstorm now having an ability that doubles speed is unfair if we ban infinite sun and rain, but have you looked at what actually gets sand throw?
Muurando
Who at best will end up UU in my opinion.
Doryuuzu
The only one I can see being OU.
Sandslash
Might be bumped up to UU.
Those 3 are the only ones who can abuse sandstorm and gain speed. I really don't see that swaying sandstorm to ubers favor.
I'm willing to bet that Dream World Politoed, Vulpix, and Ninetales will all be banned from OU, and Dream World Pokes that get Shadow Tag.
All I can say is enjoy the games while there's still no tier list, because I'm pretty darn sure Drought, Drizzle, and Shadow Tag will all be Uber abilities and the Pokemon with their other abilities will still be usable in OU. The only way it would make sense to flat out ban all those Pokemon is if that was their only ability and you know good and well that Ninetales and Vulpix get Flash Fire and Politoed gets Water Absorb and Damp.
Though we shall see...
People like to bring up how Sandstorm now having an ability that doubles speed is unfair if we ban infinite sun and rain, but have you looked at what actually gets sand throw?
Muurando
Who at best will end up UU in my opinion.
Doryuuzu
The only one I can see being OU.
Sandslash
Might be bumped up to UU.
Those 3 are the only ones who can abuse sandstorm and gain speed. I really don't see that swaying sandstorm to ubers favor.
I'm willing to bet that Dream World Politoed, Vulpix, and Ninetales will all be banned from OU, and Dream World Pokes that get Shadow Tag.
All I can say is enjoy the games while there's still no tier list, because I'm pretty darn sure Drought, Drizzle, and Shadow Tag will all be Uber abilities and the Pokemon with their other abilities will still be usable in OU. The only way it would make sense to flat out ban all those Pokemon is if that was their only ability and you know good and well that Ninetales and Vulpix get Flash Fire and Politoed gets Water Absorb and Damp.
Though we shall see...
Close but not really.
BL isn't exactly "not OU material" but it's just not used enough (usage =/=power exactly).
that's just one thing about the list
the tier list is really based on usage not power
with the exception of uber
I actually like the tiering system we have at the moment.
it may not be the most popular tiering system in the world but it's one of the most if not the most carefuly constructed tiering system with good balance in the tiers
Rain and Sun aren't the absolute most powerful weather conditions anymore. Sandstorm has Sand Throw and Sand Power Pokemon that basically function as Swift Swim/Chlorophyll and SolarPower, respectively. Doryuuzu is basically a Kabutops with better Atk, Spe, and type (for priority and switchins mainly). Sandstorm may not boost the power of any attacks but it does raise the SpDef of all Rock types by 50% and the residual damage can help wear down walls so the sweepers have an easier time cleaning up. Sand Power Pokemon also have an advantage over boosting Water/Fire attacks since it boosts both Earthquake and Stone Edge which give nearly perfect coverage together.
Sandstorm will be the dominent weather (assuming Kyogre and Groudon are auto-banned which seems likely given the threads in Policy Review) since it has more powerful abusers and set up Pokemon and Tyranitar can switch in fairly well to Ninetales and Politoed.
Sandstorm will be the dominent weather (assuming Kyogre and Groudon are auto-banned which seems likely given the threads in Policy Review) since it has more powerful abusers and set up Pokemon and Tyranitar can switch in fairly well to Ninetales and Politoed.
breh
強いだね
Oh yeah so remember that Drillmole that borders on being broken due to OHKOing and outspeeding practically all of the metagame at +2? It and Rohpushin (I don't know how to spell it) look very, very much like Garchomp/Mence+Weavile...
Doryuuzu in the sand is one of the biggest threats this gen due to great speed, attack, HP, movepool (well it's good enough to suit its needs lol), and type.
The main problem with the insta-weathers is that the pokemon who carry them both lack power and don't have the greatest bulk, meaning that they can be KOed and a Hippowdon or Tyrantitar can be brought in later to reset sandstorm.
Plus Sunny Day teams have always sucked more or less due to problems with no pokemon that get both a power boost and a speed boost, lol
Really if you're going to ban politoed and ninetales, then you should ban sandstorm and hail(well maybe not hail since it sucks compared to the others. Oh why wasn't that boost true >_<).
People think poli and ninetales are mini 3rd gen. mascots now because they got there abilities, but they really not. They both don't have the movepools that Kyorge and Groudon have is probably the biggest reason they won't go to uber.
I personally think there should be a tier in between OU and Uber. It should be judged like "pokemon who are broken in GU(Greatly Used), but are not used in Ubers" sort of like a BL tier. Here: NU-Never Used, UU-Under Used, BL-Boderline, GU-Greatly Used, OU-Over Used, and Uber. GU would become the standard metagame and OU will become the banned list of GU.
People think poli and ninetales are mini 3rd gen. mascots now because they got there abilities, but they really not. They both don't have the movepools that Kyorge and Groudon have is probably the biggest reason they won't go to uber.
I personally think there should be a tier in between OU and Uber. It should be judged like "pokemon who are broken in GU(Greatly Used), but are not used in Ubers" sort of like a BL tier. Here: NU-Never Used, UU-Under Used, BL-Boderline, GU-Greatly Used, OU-Over Used, and Uber. GU would become the standard metagame and OU will become the banned list of GU.
@Scuba Steevee: That's not how Ubers works. If a pokemon is too powerful for OU, it is Uber, however low its usage in the Uber tier may be.
@Griffen78: Why is UU gone? :(
EDIT: Yeah, what manav95 said.
@Griffen78: Why is UU gone? :(
EDIT: Yeah, what manav95 said.
I worded those last two sentences weird. Read them again. The part in quotes is for the new OU teir.
Because the UU's that had potential jumped to OU and the ones that lost it (not many) fell to NU. and many NU's of old are now OU :D like ploitoed and ninetales. or at least in my perfect world they are :D
Rain Sweepers get the STAB boost
Sand Users are the most reliable plus have many perks (50% SpD Boost, Sand Veil...etc.)
Sunny Day teams do not have the synergy
Hail Teams get 100% Blizzard and nothing else.
I think it will be rain and sand in OU (as opposed to just sand in OU) and improved Sun and Hail in the lower tiers.
For those who say Politoad and Ninetales will be Uber, I started the thread with that in mind. I said in the OP that while those guys would've been too strong for Gen IV, Gen V changed everything. There's enough Pokemon for a new OU Tier.
Sand Users are the most reliable plus have many perks (50% SpD Boost, Sand Veil...etc.)
Sunny Day teams do not have the synergy
Hail Teams get 100% Blizzard and nothing else.
I think it will be rain and sand in OU (as opposed to just sand in OU) and improved Sun and Hail in the lower tiers.
For those who say Politoad and Ninetales will be Uber, I started the thread with that in mind. I said in the OP that while those guys would've been too strong for Gen IV, Gen V changed everything. There's enough Pokemon for a new OU Tier.
Right now, there are two "real" tiers. OU is the most-used Pokemon (50 at the start of Gen 4?) with BST 600 or under (excluding Slaking + Regigigas because of their abilities). UU was another group of decent Pokemon and NU was the remainder.
Ubers were Pokemon that were too powerful and overcentralised OU and were as such banned. This included everything over 600 BST and a few others (namely Wobba, Garchomp and Mence). Pokemon that overcentralised UU but were not used enough for OU were shoved into BL.
does that seem right?
Ubers were Pokemon that were too powerful and overcentralised OU and were as such banned. This included everything over 600 BST and a few others (namely Wobba, Garchomp and Mence). Pokemon that overcentralised UU but were not used enough for OU were shoved into BL.
does that seem right?
I hoping that the borderline will expand due to all of the new pokemon that we assume will obliterate the 4th gen competetion, thus ceasing to be the UU's banlist, and rather it's own tier with a viable amount of pokemon to choose from. I don't know if an actual new tier will be made, but it would be nice to have an "Unusable", or U tier, so that never used stops being the anti ubers, and rather another tier for play as well.
First of all, Arena Trap exists and it certainly hasn't been banned. Shadow Tag differs only in that levitators can't flee from it. And only two Fully evolved poke's were given the ability: Shandera and Gochiruzeru. The whole idea is to come in, trap, revenge kill/ or setup then revenge kill. Functions the same as Arena Trap for the most part.
Infinite Rain and Sun, wow what a blessing. I can't believe people are complaining over that when SS has been running rampant over OU this whole time. Especially with all the SS abilities popping up bolstering SS pokes. They've introduced Cloud Nine pokemon as well to counterbalance.
There are some great changes coming to the metagame, instead of placing a ton of restrictions and banning things so that the metagame is identical to DPPt, we'll adapt to the new game. I'm tired of same old same old and I look forward to the weather war that is Black and White.
Im just going to give a little resume of the new metagame:
- Sandstorm dominate the tier , rain and sun are almost unseen. And ppl if you think garchomp were hard to kill you have to see the mole in action
- Dragons still are a huge part of this metagame (salamence, gachomp, zazando and lati@s)
- Entry hazards are extemely common (just like in gen 4), and the water/ghost pokemon is the most common spin blocker, and the most common spinner is the mole
- The speed tier are little bit different now, thanks to the adition of fast sweepers like terakion, kerudio and the genies
- Stall is alive, but is completly diferent from gen 4
- Ditto is the ultimate revenge killer, if you get too cocky boosting your stats, you have huge risks of getting sweeped by ditto, his only problem is that he is dead weight vs stall
- Sandstorm dominate the tier , rain and sun are almost unseen. And ppl if you think garchomp were hard to kill you have to see the mole in action
- Dragons still are a huge part of this metagame (salamence, gachomp, zazando and lati@s)
- Entry hazards are extemely common (just like in gen 4), and the water/ghost pokemon is the most common spin blocker, and the most common spinner is the mole
- The speed tier are little bit different now, thanks to the adition of fast sweepers like terakion, kerudio and the genies
- Stall is alive, but is completly diferent from gen 4
- Ditto is the ultimate revenge killer, if you get too cocky boosting your stats, you have huge risks of getting sweeped by ditto, his only problem is that he is dead weight vs stall
Oh, so I take it you've spent weeks and months doing the research of countless players, seeing how each individual moveset works out and how each ability/weather/"room changing" move has affected the game? No. The metagame is far from decided, we're still in the theorymonning stage. Wait till the game is more widespread before making bold statements.
Then how come Tyranitar, Hippwodon and Abomasnow are not banned? They've had their abilities for longer than Ninetales and Politoad. Are they not broken as well?
Infinite sand seems a lot worse than infinite sun to me.
Before acting like smartass start reading, i said a little resume of the new metagame, im not saying the metagame will be like that because i said so, im just showing the most important point of the ACTUAL metagame, not how the standard metagame will be after everything is stable, and maybe you are still on theorymoning stage but other people, includindg me, are already on playstesting stage, you can read the new analisis if you dont believe me
I just wanted to try to clarify a few things, according to my understanding.
Tiers are based on usage; they're also based on the power of pokemon, A.K.A. how much they centralize the metagame. Really, the only purpose for Uber and BL initially was to ensure those pokes wouldn't ruin the metas of the other tiers. The only reason Ubers evolved into its own meta is because it was able to gather enough members, and people still wanted to be able to play with those pokes. Right now the only examples I can think of are P-Z, Cress, and Garchomp.
Long ago, when Gen. IV came out, everyone thought Cress was Uber because they took one look at her stats and figured she was impossible to KO. But then once they realized that moonlight was cut down with SS, and she could only take so many crunches, pursuits and the like, she was delegated to the bottom of OU. This is where usage applies. She was not used too much anymore, an indication of her power level being low enough to possibly be allowed into UU. But there, if you were a witness, you would have seen how with a simple sub + cm set she took care of business. This is where centralization/power comes in. She was deemed too strong, because every team was forced to prepare for her well otherwise they would face one in literally almost every match and thus expect to get messed up. She didn't even require any support, because she could come in on practically any old resisted attack and set up in the opponent's face. Same for P-Z and Garchomp. They were all sent to their respective banlist tiers.
Now I've already said things about Poli and Ninetails in a thread about the former, but I'll sum up the points for y'all.
1. There are fairly equal arguments on both sides.
2. Shut up, stop theorymoning, and wait for the derned meta to develop. I don't care how much you think infinite rain/sun is broken, how weak the two bringers of insta weather are. Be quiet and be patient, that way you can brag about how you were right in the end. If you're trying to prove it now, you only make yourself look that much less believeable and are hurting your own cause.
Tiers are based on usage; they're also based on the power of pokemon, A.K.A. how much they centralize the metagame. Really, the only purpose for Uber and BL initially was to ensure those pokes wouldn't ruin the metas of the other tiers. The only reason Ubers evolved into its own meta is because it was able to gather enough members, and people still wanted to be able to play with those pokes. Right now the only examples I can think of are P-Z, Cress, and Garchomp.
Long ago, when Gen. IV came out, everyone thought Cress was Uber because they took one look at her stats and figured she was impossible to KO. But then once they realized that moonlight was cut down with SS, and she could only take so many crunches, pursuits and the like, she was delegated to the bottom of OU. This is where usage applies. She was not used too much anymore, an indication of her power level being low enough to possibly be allowed into UU. But there, if you were a witness, you would have seen how with a simple sub + cm set she took care of business. This is where centralization/power comes in. She was deemed too strong, because every team was forced to prepare for her well otherwise they would face one in literally almost every match and thus expect to get messed up. She didn't even require any support, because she could come in on practically any old resisted attack and set up in the opponent's face. Same for P-Z and Garchomp. They were all sent to their respective banlist tiers.
Now I've already said things about Poli and Ninetails in a thread about the former, but I'll sum up the points for y'all.
1. There are fairly equal arguments on both sides.
2. Shut up, stop theorymoning, and wait for the derned meta to develop. I don't care how much you think infinite rain/sun is broken, how weak the two bringers of insta weather are. Be quiet and be patient, that way you can brag about how you were right in the end. If you're trying to prove it now, you only make yourself look that much less believeable and are hurting your own cause.