A new generation of weather abuse

[Synre]

This thread is for discussion of the competitive impacts of weather in Generation 5.

While we still probably don't have all the information we might like to have about the abilities that effect the various weather effects, it seems pretty obvious weather will have a great and more varied impact on competitive play in generation 5 than it has in the past. A couple new Pokemon got the permanent weather abilities, and many more Pokemon got new and old abilities that make them more powerful under weather effects. Even without a Drizzle user, rain was an effective playstyle in both OU and UU last generation, and weather control with the permanent weather Pokemon was an important component of play in both Ubers and VGC, with the team that kept the desired weather on the field most often coming out on top in many battles. Regardless of whether or not we start out with arbitrary bans that would relegate Groudon and Kyogre to ubers, we can be fairly certain thanks to newly allocated abilities we will have users of all four auto-weather traits available at the beginning of play for the first time in any generation(if Dream World cooperates...), so let's think about some of the weather-relevant Pokemon in Gen 5.


Format is Pokemon (Type, BaseHP/BaseAtt/BaseDef/BaseSpA/BaseSpD/BaseSpe)
Red is new.

Drizzle
Kyogre (Water, 100/100/90/150/140/90)
Politoed (Water, 90/75/75/90/100/70)

Drought
Groudon (Ground, 100/150/140/100/90/90)
Ninetales (Fire, 73/76/75/81/100/100)

Snow Warning
Abomasnow (Grass/Ice, 90/92/75/92/85/60)

Sandstream
Tyranitar (Rock/Dark, 100/134/110/95/100/61)
Hippowdon (Ground, 108/112/118/68/72/47)


I'm posting all the Gen 4 mechanics of the weather effects as I go along, but I do so with a warning: I would be surprised if there isn't a big change or two we don't know about yet. Think Sandstorm boosting Rock-type's Special Defenses in Gen 4 typ changes. Seems like they made weather a little too accessible not to have some changes in mind...

Listed next are the weather-support abilities. Hid this stuff under spoiler tags to make the thread less unruly. Will add more information to the appropriate sections as it becomes available.

Rain

Rain-themed effects

Assuming the mechanics are the same as they were in Gen 4:

While in effect, it increases the damage of Water-type moves by 50%, and causes Fire-type moves to do half damage. Thunder always hits. SolarBeam has 60 Base Power. Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Synthesis heal 1/4 of the user's maximum HP. Pokémon with the Swift Swim ability have double Speed. Pokémon with the Forecast ability become Water-type. At the end of each turn, Pokémon with the Rain Dish ability heal 1/16 HP, Pokémon with the Dry Skin ability heal 1/8 HP, and Pokémon with the Hydration ability cure themselves of status ailments.

Swift Swim
Rain doubles the Speed of Pokémon with Swift Swim. This is not a stat boost. If the rain ends or a new weather condition is brought into play, the Pokémon's Speed returns to normal.

Floatzel (Water, 85/105/55/85/50/115)
Gorebyss (Water, 55/84/105/114/75/52)
Huntail (Water, 55/104/105/94/75/52)
Kabutops (Water/Rock, 60/115/105/65/70/80)
Kingdra (Water/Dragon, 75/95/95/95/95/85)
Ludicolo (Water/Grass, 80/70/70/90/100/70)
Lumineon (Water, 69/69/76/69/86/91)
Luvdisc (Water, 43/30/55/40/65/97)
Mantine (Water/Flying, 65/40/70/80/140/70)
Omastar (Water/Rock, 70/60/125/115/70/55)
Qwilfish (Water/Poison, 65/95/75/55/55/85)
Relicanth (Water/Rock, 100/90/130/45/65/55)
Seaking (Water, 80/92/65/65/80/68)
Golduck (Water, 80/82/78/85/95/80)
Poliwrath (Water/Fighting, 90/85/95/90/70/70)
Armaldo (Rock/Bug, 75/125/100/70/80/45)
Abagohra (Water/Rock, 74/108/133/83/65/32)
Tsunbeaa (Ice, 95/110/80/70/80/50)
Gamageroge (Water/Ground, 105/85/75/85/75/74)

Rain Dish
When rain is in effect, this Pokémon heals 1/16 of its max HP at the end of each turn.

Ludicolo (Water/Grass, 80/70/70/90/100/70)
Blastoise (Water, 79/83/100/85/105/78)
Tentacruel (Water/Poison, 80/70/65/80/120/100)
Pelipper (Water/Flying, 60/50/100/85/70/65)

Hydration
When Rain Dance is in effect, this Pokémon heals itself of burn, freeze, paralysis, poison, and sleep at the end of each turn. If rain ends on the same turn that this Pokemon is afflicted with a status, that status will not be healed.

Dewgong (Water/Ice, 90/70/80/70/95/70)
Manaphy (Water, 100/100/100/100/100/100)
Phione (Water, 80/80/80/80/80/80)
Lapras (Water/Ice, 130/85/80/85/95/60)
Vaporeon (Water, 130/65/60/110/95/65)
Whiscash (Water/Ground, 110/78/73/76/71/60)
Luvdisc (Water, 43/30/55/40/65/97)
Swanna (Water/Flying, 75/87/63/87/63/98)
Mamanbou (Water, 165/75/80/40/45/65)
Agirudaa (Bug, 80/70/40/100/60/145)

Dry Skin
If Sunny Day is in effect, this Pokémon loses 12.5% HP each turn. If Rain Dance is in effect, this Pokémon heals 12.5% HP each turn. In addition, this Pokémon heals 25% HP when hit with a Water-type attack, but takes 25% extra damage from Fire-type attacks.

Parasect (Bug/Grass, 60/95/80/60/80/30)
Toxicroak (Fighting/Poison, 83/106/65/86/65/85)
Jynx (Psychic/Ice, 65/50/35/115/95/95)

Sun

Sun-Themed effects

Assuming the mechanics are the same as they were in Gen 4:

While in effect, it increases the damage of Fire-type moves by 50%, and causes Water-type moves to do half damage. Thunder is 50% accurate. SolarBeam has no charge turn. Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Synthesis heal 2/3 of the user's maximum HP. No Pokémon can be Frozen while the sunlight is active. Pokémon with the Chlorophyll ability have double Speed. Pokémon with the Forecast ability become Fire-type. Pokémon with the Leaf Guard ability are unaffected by status inducing moves. Pokémon with the Flower Gift ability and its partner in 2v2 have an increase in stats. At the end of each turn, Pokémon with the Dry Skin or Solar Power abilities lose 1/8 of their total HP. The latter also gets a one stage Special Attack boost.

Chlorophyll
Sun doubles the Speed of Pokémon with Chlorophyll. This is not a stat boost. If the sunlight ends or a new weather condition is brought into play, the Pokémon's Speed returns to normal.

Bellossom (Grass, 75/80/85/90/100/50)
Exeggutor (Grass/Psychic, 95/95/85/125/65/55)
Jumpluff (Grass/Flying, 75/55/70/55/85/110)
Shiftry (Grass/Dark, 90/100/60/90/60/80)
Sunflora (Grass, 75/75/55/105/85/30)
Tangrowth (Grass, 100/100/125/110/50/50)
Tropius (Grass/Flying, 99/68/83/72/87/51)
Victreebel (Grass/Poison, 80/105/65/100/60/70)
Vileplume (Grass/Poison, 75/80/85/100/90/50)
Hahakurimo (Grass/Bug, 75/103/80/70/70/92)
Doreida (Grass, 70/60/75/110/75/90)
Marakacchi (Grass, 75/86/67/106/67/60)
Mebukijka (Normal/Grass, 80/100/70/60/70/95)
Venusaur (Grass/Poison, 80/82/83/100/100/80)
Leafeon (Grass, 65/110/130/60/65/95)
Erufuun (Grass, 60/67/85/77/75/116)

Leaf Guard
Opponent-induced burn, paralysis, poison, and sleep are blocked while Sunny Day is in effect. This does not prevent those inflicted by the user (such as sleep induced by Rest), and it does not heal status effects that are already present when Sunny Day is used.

Jumpluff (Grass/Flying, 75/55/70/55/85/110)
Leafeon (Grass, 65/110/130/60/65/95)
Tangrowth (Grass, 100/100/125/110/50/50)
Meganium (Grass, 80/82/100/83/100/80)
Doreida (Grass, 70/60/75/110/75/90)

Flower Gift
When the sunlight is strong, this Pokémon raises its own Attack and Special Defense by 50%. In 2v2, it also raises the Attack and Special Defense of its partner by 50%. This effect does not stack if two Pokémon have Flower Gift.

Cherrim (Grass, 70/60/70/87/78/85)

Solar Power
When Sunny Day is in effect, this Pokémon loses 1/8 HP per turn, but Special Attack is increased by 50%.

Sunflora (Grass, 75/75/55/105/85/30)
Tropius (Grass/Flying, 99/68/83/72/87/51)
Charizard (Fire/Flying, 78/84/78/109/85/100)

Sand

Sand-themed effects

Assuming the effects of Sandstorm are the same as in Gen 4:

This does 1/16 damage to all Pokémon that aren't part Rock, Ground, or Steel, or have the trait Sand Veil. It also raises the Special Defense of Rock types by 50%. SolarBeam has 60 power. Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Synthesis heal 1/4 of the user's maximum HP.

Sand Power
The Pokemon's Rock, Steel, & Ground-type moves are increased in power during Sandstorms.

Doryuuzu (Ground/Steel, 110/135/60/50/65/88)
Randorosu (Ground/Flying, 89/125/90/115/80/101)
Hippowdon (Ground, 108/112/118/68/72/47)
Gastrodon (Water/Ground, 111/83/68/92/82/39)
Probopass (Steel/Rock, 60/55/145/75/150/40)
Dugtrio (Ground, 35/80/50/50/70/120)

Sand Throw
Doubles the Pokemon's Speed during a Sandstorm.

Murrando (Normal, 85/100/90/45/90/80)
Doryuuzu (Ground/Steel, 110/135/60/50/65/88)
Sandslash (Ground, 75/100/110/45/55/65)

Sand Veil
When a sandstorm is in effect, this Pokémon gets a 20% evasion increase. In addition, if a non-Rock, Steel, or Ground-type Pokémon has this ability, it will not take damage from sandstorm.

Cacturne (Grass/Dark, 70/115/60/115/60/55)
Dugtrio (Ground, 35/80/50/50/70/120)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground, 108/130/95/80/85/102)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying, 75/95/125/45/75/95)
Sandslash (Ground, 75/100/110/45/55/65)
Golem (Ground/Rock, 80/110/130/55/65/45)
Donphan (Ground, 90/120/120/60/60/50)
Maggyo (Ground/Electric, 109/66/84/81/99/32)

Hail

Hail-Themed Effects
Does 1/16 damage to all Pokémon except Ice types and those with the Snow Cloak ability. Blizzard is 100% accurate. Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Synthesis heal 1/4 of the user's maximum HP.

Snow Cloak
When hail is in effect, this Pokémon gets a 20% evasion increase. In addition, if a non Ice-type Pokémon has this ability, it will not take damage from hail.

Froslass (Ice/Ghost, 70/80/70/80/70/110)
Glaceon (Ice, 65/60/110/130/95/65)
Mamoswine (Ice/Ground, 110/130/80/70/60/80)
Tsunbeaa (Ice, 95/110/80/70/80/50)
Articuno (Ice/Flying, 90/85/100/95/125/85)

Ice Body
When hail is in effect, this Pokémon heals 1/16 of its max HP at the end of each turn. In addition, if a non Ice-type Pokémon has this ability, it will not take damage from hail.

Glalie (Ice, 80/80/80/80/80/80)
Walrein (Ice/Water, 110/80/90/95/90/65)
Baibanira (Ice, 71/95/85/110/95/79)
Dewgong (Water/Ice, 90/70/80/70/95/70)
Regice (Ice, 80/50/100/100/200/50)
Glaceon (Ice, 65/60/110/130/95/65)

Miscellaneous

Cloud Nine
While a Pokémon with Cloud Nine is in play, the effects of weather are temporarily disabled. Fire- and Water-type moves are at normal power in sun and rain, Rock-types have normal Special Defense in sandstorm, SolarBeam has 120 Base Power and takes two turns, Blizzard and Thunder have normal accuracy, and Pokémon take damage from neither sandstorm nor hail. The game will report that the weather is still going, and the weather's effects will return when the Pokémon with Cloud Nine switches out.

Golduck (Water, 80/82/78/95/80/85)
Altaria (Dragon/Flying, 75/70/90/70/105/80
Lickilicky (Normal, 110/85/95/80/95/50)


Air Lock
While a Pokémon with Air Lock is in play, the effects of weather are temporarily disabled. Fire- and Water-type moves are at normal power in sun and rain, Rock-types have normal Special Defense in sandstorm, SolarBeam has 120 Base Power and takes two turns, Blizzard and Thunder have normal accuracy, and Pokémon take damage from neither sandstorm nor hail. The game will report that the weather is still going, and the weather's effects will return when the Pokémon with Air Lock switches out.

Rayquaza (Dragon/Flying, 105/150/90/150/90/95)

Some early thoughts to get us started discussing:

-Many of these new abilities are from the Dream World, which we currently don't have a whole lot of information on. Many of the Pokemon from it may not be accessible from the game's release, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

- Keep in mind that if mechanics are the same as they were in Gen 3 and 4, if two weather-inducing Pokemon are sent out in the same turn, the slower weather goes last. It's good to be Abomasnow, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar. Don't throw away those Iron Balls...

- Armaldo is kind of interesting in regards to having an interesting place in weather heavy battles. He now gets Swift Swim, giving him an excuse to be on rain themed teams. Swift Swim brings his terrible 45 base speed up to... well, a still not that amazing 378 Speed with max speed Adamant in the Rain, but enough speed to make its base 125 Attack and reasonable 75HP/100 Defense/80 Special Defense effective. Like a few other Rock-type Swift Swimmers, he gets a Special Defense boost in the Sand when playing against teams using Tyranitar or Hippowdon, but unlike all other Pokemon who fit that requirement, he does not have a 4x(or any) weakness to Grass, making him a little less vulnerable against Drought teams. Has an annoying Stealth Rock weakness that will be problematic in standard play.

- I'm excited about Ninetales. While it also has an annoying SR weakness and was deservedly in UU last generation(and wasn't even very good there either, frankly), it has the tools to keep itself from dying long enough to let you reset Drought a few times if you're stuck in a battle where you're flipping the weather back and forth. 100 base Special Defense is nothing to scoff at, though being so fast is kind of wasteful for the role it is likely to server. Has Hypnosis to support its team.

- Politoed is interestingly in an almost identical situation, with the same Speical Defense score and the same sleep move. Both need to watch out for each other's weather buddies: Drought teams will have a lot of Grass-types and Fire-types with Grass-type moves to hit Water Pokemon, and Rain is obviously going to have lots of Water types ready to smack Ninetales into oblivion - many of whom attack on the physical side of the spectrum. Does NOT have an annoying SR weakness. Hooray!

- Interesting that a pure-Ice type gets Swift Swim in our favorite polar bear friend. I guess in theory this would help against Hail-teams, but unless he gets some gimmicks in his movepool I can't see the Rain supporting him very well... I suppose at least it gives them an excuse to carry a Pokemon who is super-effective against the Grass-types that are so common on sun teams.

-While Rain Dance has proven better than Sunny Day in most of Gen 4's play, it's a lot easier to build a team around Drought because more types naturally benefit from sun. Perhaps stuff like the Swift Swim Ice-type was intended to balance that out a bit...

- Can't imagine many rain teams using her, but love Dry Skin on Jynx. Sure hurts her CoverGirl candidacy, but an extra immunity is just what her defensively inept self needed.

- While I didn't list Fire-types who lacked a weather-centric ability in the sun section, they'll obviously be very important. Some interesting options as far as typing include Shanderaa, who gives some interesting resistances with it's Ghost-type. Pity it doesn't get Levitate... still, 145 Special Attack firing off STAB Fire attacks in the sun will be crazy. Gotta imagine a lot of teams carrying Tyranitar to help deal with this sort of thing, a weather swap, a Fire-resist, and a Pursuit user in one(pity he won't be able to switch in until after a kill if the candle-ghost-contraption is using Shadow Tag, lol). He beats up some other nice Sun Pokemon like Exeggutor too, get used to him...

- Excited to do a lot of bad gimmicky shit in multi-battles already. I'm sure most of it won't work out in reality, but the ideas are always fun. Solar Power Tropius + Solar Power Charizard + Groudon, anyone? Just asking to get cleaved by Blizzard, but...

-Ice and Sand still seem a little underwhelming, other than generally being disruptive to teams focusing on the other two weathers, who are likely to be carrying members that suck without the correct weather condition. Sand got some help with two new abilities, though neither are widely available. Wonder if Hail won't have something similar up its sleeve, hard to believe it got nearly completely neglected... at least Ice Body Regice is pretty exciting. 18% a turn helps make up for the fact it's a lot easier to hit with a super-effective special attacks than it was back in Gen 3.

 

[RBG]

Sadly for Ninetales, it gets Hypnosis through an Egg Move, and I doubt that Egg moves will be on Dream World Pokemon. I would say no Energy Ball, but who needs that when you have 1 Turn Solar Beam?

 

[matty]

I can't even begin to fathom what is going to happen now. Weather is going to be so important to control, otherwise you run the threat of getting swept by either: Rain (which we knew was insane to start with last gen), Sun, which is another fairly offensive type that has a lot of weapons at its disposal, Sand which ruled last gen due to Chomp's wide spread effects and also the fact that it is super useful in stall and Tar becomes a great Special Tank.

I think the biggest loser in all of this is Ice. It will be so much harder for it to keep control of the weather with so many others floating around. Plus it is more defensive and when you have hyper offensive teams like Rain and Sand, it won't stand much of a chance.

Sand and Rain are just plain scary. Both have the ability to be completely heavy offense and wear down potential counters. Rain has many things like Kingdra (with auto-rain is lol), Kaputops and Qwil and the addition of Poliwrath doesn't help. It is going to be an insane metagame for sure.

 

[XenoIncognito]

You should list the new Cloud Nine users as well.

I'm excited to try out SD Leafeon and Venusaur in the sun. :)

 

[Adonzo]

Also missed Sand Throw on Sandslash, and Sand Power on Dugtrio

 

[Synre]

Sadly for Ninetales, it gets Hypnosis through an Egg Move, and I doubt that Egg moves will be on Dream World Pokemon. I would say no Energy Ball, but who needs that when you have 1 Turn Solar Beam?

Bah, that's a good/unfortunate point about Hypnosis.

No Energy Ball matters, though. Getting caught with your pants down if your opponent sends out a Weather Changer is huge - getting stuck charging SolarBeam as your opponent brings in Abomasnow or Tyranitar or whatever and coughing up a free turn hurts. At least it's not as huge a thing in Singles since Ninetales fights the other weather changers fairly well... though Tar coming in on a half-power Solarbeam and giving itself the SDEF boost so it can rail away with Pursuit or whatever could be really brutal.

 

[NDenizen]

I don't see how Sand is underwhelming - it's already pretty useful and now we have pokemon who benefit even more stat-wise from it.

I can imagine OU becoming Weather Wars, which sound chaotic, but also pretty fun.

 

[IcyMan28]

Does anyone else think that supporting pokemon might start using Sunny Day/Rain Dance/Sandstorm for the sole purpose of cancelling out opposing weather?

And second, if Drought is in effect and Rain Dance is used, does the weather return to clear skies once Rain ends, or does it go back to Bright Sunlight?

 

[lati0s]

clear skies

 

[XenoIncognito]

Does anyone else think that supporting pokemon might start using Sunny Day/Rain Dance/Sandstorm for the sole purpose of cancelling out opposing weather?

And second, if Drought is in effect and Rain Dance is used, does the weather return to clear skies once Rain ends, or does it go back to Bright Sunlight?

It will go back to clear weather.

 

[Synre]

Also missed Sand Throw on Sandslash, and Sand Power on Dugtrio

Is there a translated version of the DW abilities somewhere? Knew I was missing all dream world Sand Throw/Power because Serebii is still showing "New Ability - To Be Translated" for shit that didn't exist last gen

 

[Kevin Garrett]

The biggest impact of all these new weather abilities will be seen with the abusers. Politoed and Ninetails won't be vying for a position in OU from this because there are better Pokemon out there that have to waste a turn to set up weather, but can do and handle more with that. I should say they will greatly effect the UU metagame. Aside from the new toys Rain, Sun, and Hail are receiving, Sand is the biggest winner of BW. The two new abilities and the Pokemon that get them will make them a force to be reckoned with in OU. Randorosu is a Pokemon with a BST of 600 and it gets Rock-, Ground-, and Steel-type attacks boosted. I should really point out the base speed stat of 101. That will raise the bar for speed tiers. As Garchomp proved, having a speed niche can be very valuable. That does not mean I think it will be broken. I am just highlighting the importance of always outspeeding a majority of the metagame without Choice Scarf. Doryuuzu is nothing to scoff at either. With its speed doubled, coupled with a 135 base attack stat, it will also be scary to face. Of course, the movepool has a lot to say about how good it will be.

 

[giggity69]

I don't see how Sand is underwhelming - it's already pretty useful and now we have pokemon who benefit even more stat-wise from it.

I can imagine OU becoming Weather Wars, which sound chaotic, but also pretty fun.

Oh there is no doubt that the first bit will be a weather war, but I think that after a while, the initial excitement of themed teams will wear off and people will go back to more balanced teams. I myself can not wait to make a water stall team! Come on! Vappy, a wall already, immune to status AND having reliable recovery, too good to pass up.

The biggest impact of all these new weather abilities will be seen with the abusers

Completely agree

 

[Adonzo]

Is there a translated version of the DW abilities somewhere? Knew I was missing all dream world Sand Throw/Power because Serebii is still showing "New Ability - To Be Translated" for shit that didn't exist last gen

Where the crap did I see that? I think it was somewhere in the middle of the DW abilities megathread, looking for it now...

EDIT: couldnt find the post i was talking about, but you can match up Dugtrio/Sandslash's DW abilities (#146 and #159) with Dory's (#530 ground/steel) @ http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78983

EDIT2: while I'm at it, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Probopass also have #159

 

[Sandstreamer]

Well, yeah, Ice is kinda left behind by this. I'm still wondering if there is something yet to come...

 

[Delta 2777]

Energy Ball

Ninetails -should- still be able to get Energy Ball; Vulpix gets it through TM, and it is obtainable through the Dream World (unless I am mistaken).

Anyway, quite obviously Competative Pokemon just got flipped inside out. I thought Gen V would be out of control as soon as I saw the new Pokemon and their BSTs; THEN I see the Dream World abilities, and I'm like *facepalm*. I might let the metagame establish itself a bit before starting Gen V competatively.

In the end, should Drought, Drizzle, or even Sand Stream prove to be too broken, we could always ban Hippowdon/Tyranitar/Vulpix/Ninetails/Politoed to Ubers, or, since everything gets at least two abilities now, we could always in theory ban the Pokemon from using those particular abilities.

 

[giggity69]

Yeah, ice really didn't get anything offensively significant in the way of abilities, at least not that I know of. It looks like for the moment, at least, hail is still going to mean hail stall.

 

[ShinyAzelf]

Finally permanent weather in the lower tiers. I never was a fan of weather teams, because it was limited and often could be stalled out.

I think Kingdra is going to be a huge threat in the OU tier now, under permanent rain, just like in Ubers.

 

[Synre]

Completely agreed on Doryuuzu, think with even a decent movepool it'll be good enough to get it or Tyranitar in some hot water if the bar for OU doesn't move up this gen(which it probably will, conveniently).

Wanted to comment on:

The biggest impact of all these new weather abilities will be seen with the abusers. Politoed and Ninetails won't be vying for a position in OU from this because there are better Pokemon out there that have to waste a turn to set up weather, but can do and handle more with that. I should say they will greatly effect the UU metagame.

I'm not so sure about this. If you were to drop Drizzle Politoed or Drought Ninetales into Gen 4 UU they'd both get banned in a period by a supermajority, but I think the abilities will carry them into OU. They aren't bad Pokemon by any means - not nearly good enough to be OU, but both traits are _incredible_. If the OU landscape looked like Gen 4's(and I don't think it will with all the new Pokemon and moves), I would be surprised if they weren't both very popular - the combination of speed and power they can give the rest of your team is unmatched for a support slot and they don't even need to use a move to do it, so they're more difficult to shut down than even a normal weather set-up mon. Neither would have any trouble coming in a few times to set their weathers up, and neither has stats that are too abysmal offensively - they'll at least do SOME damage, or spread some status or whatever.

Weather lasting forever is a big deal in itself, though. The opponent not having that option of stalling it out it is a great freedom for the weather team, and not having to worry about set-up turns makes it a lot easier to pull off consistently than even stuff like dual screen. Teams using Ninetales or Politoed would need to focus very carefully on removing enemy Tyranitars in the game we're playing now, for instance, but the benefit of having Sun/Rain for the rest of the game once you do... I think a lot of teams would do it. Especially for those handful of games your opponent doesn't have a weather changer - I wonder if weatherless teams won't fade away on some level. At least ones that aren't carrying a random Hail(the move, I mean) user or two to disrupt weather teams.

No question it is Sand's metagame to lose if Kyogre and Groudon aren't around, though. They've got the big hitters. But I think we'll definitely see plenty of appearances by Rain and Sun, regardless of which Pokemon is steering the ship.

You made the point about it being all about abusers, which is right on the money - stuff like Kingdra and Kabutops are freaking beastly with Swift Swim active. Even Sun's heavy hitters are pretty devastating since they have so much more type diversity, and stuff like Solar Power Zard and Shadow Tag Shandalier thinger will probably be able to make nice little holes for themselves.

Ninetails -should- still be able to get Energy Ball; Vulpix gets it through TM, and it is obtainable through the Dream World (unless I am mistaken).

Nah, you're right, I'd just assumed it was implied it was one of the TMs that got replaced, but this isn't the case. I'll almost certainly be using Energy Ball over Solarbeam on mine... its just such a risk...

EDIT: couldnt find the post i was talking about, but you can match up Dugtrio/Sandslash's DW abilities (#146 and #159) with Dory's (#530 ground/steel) @ http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78983

EDIT2: while I'm at it, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Probopass also have #159

that post is good enough for me, I'll edit in the Sand shits

 

[kd24]

My first impression is just how good Rain Dance should be. I think the issue with other weather teams is how centralized on a few core moves they are - Sun relies on Solarbeam, Fire-attacks, and maybe Explosion from some users. Sandstorm usually uses Stone Edge/Earthquake and relies on a more defensive outlook. Hail only really uses Blizzard and also plays defensively.

There are nothing wrong with these strategies at all, and they all look extremely viable in Gen V, but Rain Dance users are all so unique and powerful that it is leagues beyond everything else. Besides the fact that almost all of them get the very powerful Surf/Ice Beam to abuse, but each one has something very special. Kingdra can run Dragon Attacks. Kabutops can run Stone Edge and other high power physical attacks.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that even if you can cover Surf, the Swift Swimmers and Rain Sweepers have plenty of common and viable ways to stop you, where as Sun users, for example, can try and use Explosion, Sleep Powder, etc but just don't have the pure sweeping capability that Rain Does, and likely won't sweep without any of their 2 main moves (mainly Solarbeam).

I do expect this to be the Gen of Weather though, especially of how powerful all the Pokemon are offensively. Being able to match that power and outspeed, or control the entire game with it, gives you a huge advantage.

 

[Manaphy]

My first impression is just how good Rain Dance should be. I think the issue with other weather teams is how centralized on a few core moves they are - Sun relies on Solarbeam, Fire-attacks, and maybe Explosion from some users. Sandstorm usually uses Stone Edge/Earthquake and relies on a more defensive outlook. Hail only really uses Blizzard and also plays defensively.

There are nothing wrong with these strategies at all, and they all look extremely viable in Gen V, but Rain Dance users are all so unique and powerful that it is leagues beyond everything else. Besides the fact that almost all of them get the very powerful Surf/Ice Beam to abuse, but each one has something very special. Kingdra can run Dragon Attacks. Kabutops can run Stone Edge and other high power physical attacks.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that even if you can cover Surf, the Swift Swimmers and Rain Sweepers have plenty of common and viable ways to stop you, where as Sun users, for example, can try and use Explosion, Sleep Powder, etc but just don't have the pure sweeping capability that Rain Does, and likely won't sweep without any of their 2 main moves (mainly Solarbeam).

I do expect this to be the Gen of Weather though, especially of how powerful all the Pokemon are offensively. Being able to match that power and outspeed, or control the entire game with it, gives you a huge advantage.

I would like to point out though that even though Drought-Based Teams commonly use moves like Solarbeam, Sleep Powder, and Hidden Power Fire or Ice, that there are many users who use a lot of different types- The Ghost/Fire Chandelier has Ghost STAB(and Shadow Tag, and the Highest non Uber Sp.Atk in the game >.>) Tangrowth learns Rock Slide and Earthquake(and Swords Dance!), Speed Boost Blaziken can use His Fighting STAB, and a lot of Chlorophyll Pokemon have secondary STABs to use. Leech Seed and Chlorophyll also lets you make an Excellent Sub-Seed Combo. Rain Teams do get that 100% Accurate Thunder, but thats not seen that much for some reason (Except of course, in Ubers)


I agree with you on the rest though.

 

[lordkira]

I don't see UBER meta (at least singles) changing TOO much.
So far the only obvious ubers I see are (not even going to talk about all those shadow taggers) the dragon trios and they'll be good compliments (except for dragon/ice) to the weather teams (or against) with their stab fire and electric. So yeah, I think UBERs will still be weather based :/

 

[DougJustDoug]

Great thread, Synre. Thanks for presenting so much in the OP for this multi-faceted topic. Of all the surprises from B&W, I think the prospect of auto-rain and sun in the standard metagames presents the biggest source for competitive speculation.

One pokemon I noticed with a weather-related ability, that might not be high on everyone's radar is Lickylicky. It may turn out to be ineffective, or a gimmick -- but Cloud Nine Lickylicky could possibly be a viable check to rain abuse. I say this because Lickylicky has very nice bulk, access to Swords Dance and Curse to boost stats, and has the oft-overlooked Power Whip in its movepool. With the ability to wipe out the boost to rain-enhanced attacks, and to hit most water types with a big 120bp grass move possibly from a boosted attack stat -- that may give Lickylicky a place in a rain-dominated 5th gen metagame. Also, I'm not too sure, but I don't think many current rain sweepers carry a decent Fighting move in their current competitive movesets, so Lickylicky might not have too many SE hits to worry about either.

If multi-pokemon battles become commonplace in our future metagames, I have a hard time believing Lickylicky's currently unparalleled STAB Explosion would not be sexy as all get out. And if it decides to 'splode after a Swords Dance? -- Anything that isn't a Ghost is probably going bye-bye...

Anyway, Lickylicky has always been one of those also-ran pokemon in the current meta. But, with a new ability it may deserve a second look in the metagame to come.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Weather lasting forever is a big deal in itself, though. The opponent not having that option of stalling it out it is a great freedom for the weather team, and not having to worry about set-up turns makes it a lot easier to pull off consistently than even stuff like dual screen. Teams using Ninetales or Politoed would need to focus very carefully on removing enemy Tyranitars in the game we're playing now, for instance, but the benefit of having Sun/Rain for the rest of the game once you do... I think a lot of teams would do it. Especially for those handful of games your opponent doesn't have a weather changer - I wonder if weatherless teams won't fade away on some level. At least ones that aren't carrying a random Hail(the move, I mean) user or two to disrupt weather teams.

This is a good selling point for Ninetails and Politoed that I didn't think of at the time of my post. At first I thought, "With how common weather might be, does weather lasting forever matter?" And then I thought of how important this will be because it will basically demand all teams have some way of changing or shutting down weather. If they don't, any kind of weather team would roll over them.

 

[Manaphy]

Great thread, Synre. Thanks for presenting so much in the OP for this multi-faceted topic. Of all the surprises from B&W, I think the prospect of auto-rain and sun in the standard metagames presents the biggest source for competitive speculation.

One pokemon I noticed with a weather-related ability, that might not be high on everyone's radar is Lickylicky. It may turn out to be ineffective, or a gimmick -- but Cloud Nine Lickylicky could possibly be a viable check to rain abuse. I say this because Lickylicky has very nice bulk, access to Swords Dance and Curse to boost stats, and has the oft-overlooked Power Whip in its movepool. With the ability to wipe out the boost to rain-enhanced attacks, and to hit most water types with a big 120bp grass move possibly from a boosted attack stat -- that may give Lickylicky a place in a rain-dominated 5th gen metagame. Also, I'm not too sure, but I don't think many current rain sweepers carry a decent Fighting move in their current competitive movesets, so Lickylicky might not have too many SE hits to worry about either.

If multi-pokemon battles become commonplace in our future metagames, I have a hard time believing Lickylicky's currently unparalleled STAB Explosion would not be sexy as all get out. And if it decides to 'splode after a Swords Dance? -- Anything that isn't a Ghost is probably going bye-bye...

Anyway, Lickylicky has always been one of those also-ran pokemon in the current meta. But, with a new ability it may deserve a second look in the metagame to come.

Hmm. I didn't notice Lickilicky got that this Gen.



But how does Lickilicky fare against Sun- and Sandstorm-Based Teams? I think these are more likely carrying Fighting- type attacks Around, and many Sun- Based Pokemon can put you to Sleep.