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Pokémon Aegislash

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by ArkWelder, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. Hugg

    Hugg

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    I've been using a Doublade with eviolite as a counter for everyone's Aegislash in battle spot. They almost always go for a shadow claw while I go for a swords dance. I survive and then use shadow sneak to knock them out in one turn while their defense is low due to their stance switch.
  2. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    Getting to +6 just doesn't happen in competitive games with respectable opponents. Good players never let you "Assemble the Voltron". Thats why Phazers, Walls, counters, Pivots and so forth exist. The furthest you're gonna get vs a good player is +2.

    No, it is not. Assuming +2 Life Orb (the best Aegislash can do):

    Gliscor laughs with ~35% dmg from the Life Orb version. The earthquake threat forces you out, and Roost recovers the damage easily.
    Gyarados laughs with ~33% damage from +1 Shadow Sneak (-1 from Intimidate). Waterfall OHKOs if you're in sword form, and you're walled if you try to lol Sacred Sword.
    Garchomp takes 50% from Shadow Sneak, and outruns and OHKOs with Earthquake even in Shield Form.
    Togekiss is 3HKOed... 4HKOed without Life Orb (and roosts off the damage easily)
    Hippowdon takes 35%, 4HKOed
    Hydregeon Resists Shadow Sneak at ~40% dmg, and outruns and OHKOs with Fire Blast if he stays in Shield Form.
    Heatran survives Shadow Sneak, and outruns / OHKOs with Fire Blast in Shield Form.

    There are PLENTY of counters to the Swords Dance set, because Shadow Sneak just isn't enough damage. 40BP is too low, too little.
    Farpafraf likes this.
  3. crazy_man

    crazy_man

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    Somewhat fixes its speed problem.

    Less predictable (Stance Dancing) and less time needed to set up.

    Can counter Landorus-T, Garchomp, Donphan, Gliscor with HP Ice, which wall Physical Aegislash.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  4. BROloom

    BROloom

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    What is the obsession with shadow sneak? It doesn't really do enough damage to most pokemon, and while the priority is nice, it's also very risky for the average set, since if you don't KO with a 40BP move, you're dead, while an autotomize set, doesn't really need the priority.

    Why does the sword dance set run shadow sneak? I've never really gotten it.

    And as far as what set to use goes, I'm disappointed at the "only this set can work" talk. A choice scarf can be a solid choice, while lacking the pursuit threat T-Tar does, it does hit harder than T-Tar, with a typing that makes it easier to switch in with, while a choice band set isn't just about killing what is in front of it, it's about heavily damaging any switch in, allowing another physical pokemon to break through those weakened physical walls. You can even run a choice specs set, while lacking the coverage the physical set does, anyone wanting to send their physical wall out will be in for a bad time. Autotomize set gives it the speed to be a late game sweeper, while being a great pivot throughout the match, and there is a double dancer, which has everything it needs to succeed once anything that can hurt its defence form is gone...

    And lastly to the sword dance with king's shield set... it doesn't just weaken pokemon, but it can almost guarantee multiple KO's before going down, it can switch in with ease, and hit anything harder than they can hit it.
    Are these all correct? Bulky DD Gyarados takes 53.25 - 63.45% from a base 150, 252atk, brave LO shadow sneak at +1. A non shadow sneak set can either take a waterfall happily and likely KO back with Shadow claw at +1 (100% with rocks up), or it can expect the switch and hit it with 41.92 - 49.57% -1 shadow claw, which Gyarados will not be happy about taking.
    Garchomp takes 60.89 - 71.78% at +2 shadow sneak, while if he switches in, he takes 52.51 - 62.56% from a +0 shadow claw set, meaning he can only threaten to counter Aegislash once, and only the CB garchomp can actually OHKO Aegislash, a non CB Garchomp switching into a +2, will EQ, fail to kill, and die to a +2 shadow claw, or the 2nd shadow claw.
    Physically defensive Togekiss can only 5HKO, making him easy set up fodder for sword dance, and the shadow claw set dealing a massive 74.53 - 88.2% when at +2, while a SS can set up to +4 to 2HKO him.
    Hippowdon can 2 hit KO with earthquake, however, if the Aegislash is running 0 IV's, he's slower than a Hippowdon, and can actually 2HKO with a +2 shadow claw (will involve king shielding to switch stances however, which can be predicted).
    Hydregeon's mixed attacker Fire blast does 78.7 - 93.2% to 252HP Aegislash, while he dies to a Sacred sword at +0 (if he even dare switch into it... dead). A specs set can kill, but would have to be sure he won't switch in on a scared sword.
    Heatrans offensive and scarf set can KO with respective fire moves, but also both die to a +0 Sacred sword after rocks, should they dare switch in on it.
    Gliscor's sub toxic set takes 75.28 - 88.63% from + 2 shadow claw, but gliscors earthquake can do 45.06 - 53.7% back, and is the one true counter in that list so far, the defensive Gliscor takes even less damage.

    That is why people are so afraid of Aegislash, on the SD set alone, he can kill so many of his so called counters. The add in the fact that the SD set is just ONE of the many sets he can run, and he gets even scarier since if you predict the wrong set, you've either lost a poke, or you've let your team get swept.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
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  5. BROloom

    BROloom

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    Scarf Krookodile does 66.66 - 78.39% to EV'd 252HP 0Def, base 60 HP base 150 defence SE hit.

    The problem with SS, is you're not maximizing damage potential, all it does is make it so that you have to ask yourself "Can I one hit kill with my base 40 power shadow sneak?" in most cases, no, then you ask yourself "can I survive a hit with my base 60/60/60 defences" in most cases, no, in which case you either attack and die, use a probably meh effective sacred sword, or you switch. Shadow claw means you can stay in, take a hit while you have 60/150/150 defences, and KO with shadow claw.

    Shadow sneak makes no sense to me, unless you forgo something like kings shield, and use it along side shadow claw. If pokemon had 5 moveslots, it'd probably take shadow sneak on every aegislash set. As it stands, it doesn't, and it needs the two coverage moves (while in the kings shield set, the other two and SD and kings shield.)
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
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  6. Wolfblur

    Wolfblur

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    I'm not exactly super competitive, but have been wondering a set up with this that not sure if I've seen talked about yet (thought could be buried somewhere here in these 16 pages, excuse me if so haha).

    Anyways, what if Aegislash holding Full Incense? It's already too slow to do anything first without a priority move, so why not use it to your advantage? Ensuring you'll go last every single time, this means on first turn you can tank a hit in Shield form, and then attack with whatever you're set has (didn't bother to list since it seems like physical or special type sets could work so whatever) last in Blade form. Next turn throw up your King's Shield since it has priority to go back to Shield, wait for whatever your opponent does, then rinse/repeat the process?

    I'm aware it makes you fairly predictable and gives the enemy a free turn to do whichever (unless you surprise a King's Shield turn in favor for Shadow Sneak I guess), but would this be a pretty good set up if you focused your EV stats in HP and Defense? I can see Encore and Taunt and other such moves wrecking this however.

    Anyways have been using this with Shadow Sneak/King's Shield/Sacred Sword/Flash Cannon(or Iron Head can't decide) for awhile just in the regular game and seems to work in my favor every time, but yeah. Was just generally curious if this was of any interest or something utterly garbage by this community *shrugs*
  7. BROloom

    BROloom

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    Wasting an item to be slower, when you're pretty much slower already, isn't worth it. LO, leftovers, any choice item, all are far, far superior.
  8. Chaosreaver

    Chaosreaver

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    With Choice Band/Adamant/252 Attack Krook can OHKO Aegislash.
    With Life Orb it's a 63% chance.

    But, back to the question about Garchomp, LO Garchomp with Jolly nature is a 50% OHKO. 93.75% after SR; 100% after 1 layer of spikes.
    LO Adamant Garchomp OHKO's regardless.

    As for switching into an attack, Garchomp and Krookodile probably wouldn't want to, but Garchomp would provide a pretty solid revenge kill depending on entry hazards/nature.
    Depending on Garchomp's tier placement (or Krookodile's for that matter, but far less importantly so) I would definitely say it's worth considering running Adamant nature over Jolly for non choice-band sets to revenge kill Aegislash.

    But anyway, that was a whole lot of talk about something fairly minor. Woops!

    Edit: on the defensive side, Garchomp can take 3 unboosted SS's, but only 2 +2 boosted SS's. Rough skin would ensure a OHKO with Jolly nature even running Life Orb, if it were to attack during the first round (Assuming you hit Aegi through Shield Mode), and get SS'd at the beginning of the 2nd.

    Krookodile can take 2 +2 SS, but with SR (and sans leftovers) runs a 25% chance of being 2HKO by 2 +2 SS's. If it runs intimidate it won't ever encounter this issue, however.
    Switching on a Sacred Sword is going to severely damage it, even at +1.5, and leave it vulnerable to being finished off by an SS.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  9. BROloom

    BROloom

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    Eh, that Garchomp then has to be running LO, which would have to be the SR set. Adamant instead of Jolly will then lose to other pokes, so that is risky in its own right.

    Either way, one more pokemon that can possible counter isn't a deal breaker to persuade me that a sword dance set is in any way bad. Aegislash is so powerful, just from the option available, it's very difficult to say "okay, this stops all Aegislash sets" and just as difficult to work out which set it is before it's dented your team in some way.
  10. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    Thanks for double-checking the facts for me. I seem to have made a mistake on Gyarados and Garchomp calculations. They aren't counters, but they certainly stop his sweep. Also, you are assuming 252 HP EVs, whereas other posters were talking about 252 Speed EVs for some reason. I think the slower "pivot" Aegislash is a good strategy, because it puts the Slash outside of LO Garchomp Earthquake OHKO range and LO Fireblast Hydregeon.

    But once again: let me remind you the point of my post. The purpose of my post was to demonstrate why the 252/Atk 252/Speed Shadow Sneak / Sacred Sword / King's Shield / Swords Dance set is STUIPID. You're talking about putting decent attacks on an Aegislash, of course it will do better and hit its counters hard on the switch in. There are people in this thread still talking about such a bad set.

    As you've demonstrated, Aegislash needs to be threatening Shadow Claw or Shadow Ball on the switch in. That is the primary role of him is to pivot, and then switch out. Aegislash takes a (probably resisted) hit, forces the opponent to switch out, hits the incoming pokemon HARD with Shadow Claw, and then switches out because he is honestly countered by a lot of `mon. I agree with you, STAB Shadow Claws are a great strategy for Aegislash to do.

    Tell me how you're playing games with 5 attacks? Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, King's Shield, and Swords Dance?

    But lets assume you actually have those 5 attacks... King's Shield doesn't help you at all. Leftovers recovery screws your calculation over, and the Hippo survives if you waste any turns. Spamming Earthquake till Aegislash dies is the best strategy, and guarantees a win. The real worst case scenario is if Hippo predicts your King's Shield and Slacks Off back to max HP, or gets the opportunity to Stealth Rocks. So King's Shield only hurts your strategy.

    Again, Aegislash's best strategy is to Shadow Claw on the switch-in, and then switch out, because he is textbook countered by Hippowdon. The chance for 2HKO is too slim, even with Stealth Rocks aiding you. Aegislash does NOT have room to run King's Shield. Worse, against decent opponents, King's Shield does nothing except maybe punishes the occasional pursuit user.

    High-chance for Shadow-Claw Crit-Hax, or Sp. Def Hax (from Shadow Ball) favor Aegislash's hit-and-run approach.

    A potential encore user is NEVER "set up fodder".

    Sacred Sword is 4x Resisted now by Togekiss and is a 5HKO or maybe even 6HKOed at +4 (after leftovers is factored in). Your best strategy is Shadow Claw. Without Shadow Claw, Togekiss is a hard counter... and with Shadow Claw, its still somewhat close.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  11. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    252+ Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 341-401 (86.7%-102.0%)

    That's the really nasty thing about Aegislash: its versatility. None of its sets can do everything, but between all its sets, it can do almost anything, and can cause plenty of damage until your opponent figures it out. It can go physical, special, or mixed; it can be speedy or a tank. Aegislash does not give a fuck. And all that focusing mainly on just ten moves - Shadow Claw, Iron Head, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon, Sacred Sword, Hidden Power, King's Shield, Swords Dance, and Automize. It also has Pursuit and Head Smash for alternatives that haven't been getting much attention; there's gotta be uses for those, although granted it doesn't really have the HP to use Head Smash.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Being slower is not a good think for Specs Aegislash. If you do it to get outsped by Pokemon that you could otherwise outspeed, which also threaten you back, why is it good? If you can OHKO said Pokemon, obviously going first is better so you don't even have to take a hit. If you can't OHKO but the opponent 2HKOes back the Shield Stance forme and OHKOes back the Swords Stance forme it still doesn't make a difference. If you are faster you just land a hit and then get OHKOed, while if you are slower you just take a hit, land a hit, and get 2HKOed the next turn. In both cases, you shouldn't stay in as the opponent clearly has the upper hand. Of 'course having the option to at least land a hit on said Pokemon without getting OHKOed in return is nice, but is very situational and not worth losing the extra Speed.
  13. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    I still feel that King's Shield adds nothing to Aegishield (outside of speedier Pursuit revenge-killers. But Automize is a better attack for that situation). Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, HP Ice, Flash Cannon, Swords Dance, and Automize. Anyone have calculations of Iron Head vs Togekiss and Tyranitar?

    Anyway, Sp. Def Hippowdon is the best counter, because it covers everything except Shadow Ball Sp. Def hax and Shadow Claw crit-hax. Various other pokemon check: T-Tar can switch into predicted Swords Dances and potentially Pursuit Traps non-King's Shield. Togekiss walls the non-Steel sets.

    You forget the purpose of Aegislash: which is to Pivot.

    IE: Aegislash is a safe-switch into Cloyster. Cloyster switches out, and Aegislash pounds on the wall. Aegislash switches out (because the wall probably counters him), and has officially done his job.
  14. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Okay, let's redo some of my bogus calcs.

    252 SpA LO Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 199-235 (65.8%-77.4%)
    252+ SpA Specs Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 251-296 (82.8%-97.4%)

    252+ Atk Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shield Form Aegislash: 215-252 (82.4%-96.9%)

    Heh, my mistake about Shadow Ball's BP pretty much canceled out messing up Mawile's SpD, and its HP was the same anyway so it ends up really close to the original. Aegislash takes a bit less from Sucker Punch, but it's still really not a position it wants to be in.
  15. Pac-man9

    Pac-man9

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    Mega mawile doesn't resist ghost, but your point still stands.
    First of all, I fixed your grammar for you. Second of all, His niche is to play mind games with either the swords dance/King's Shield set, go for the surprise with a special set, or pivot as many others in this thread have said already. Also, his movepool may have a little to be desired, but it still allows him to do his job. And why compare him to cloyster? Just because they both have high defense and low speed? At least Aegislash has the ability to benefit from his low speed and has better defenses than cloyster. You can't compare a shell smasher to Aegislash.
    And bad typing?

    weak to: Ghost, Dark, Ground, fire

    Unaffected by: Normal, Fighting, Poison(which will be more common now with fairies about)

    Resists: FAIRY, dragon, ice, grass, psychic, flying, rock, bug, steel(also more common now)

    He resists two of the best offensive types I the game(dragon and fairy) and is immune to poison which is becoming common with fairies running around. Also, he can beat most frail ghosts with shadow sneak, and destroy physical darks (not many special dark type sweepers in OU are there?) with a combination of sacred sword and King's shield. Also, he shouldn't be fighting bulky ground types or fire types in general anyway. This is why he is normally a pivot who keeps moving. I would understand your point if you had actual explanations, and if his main niche was sweeping since his speed and HP holds him back, but his movepool and resistances actually help his role.
    Sorry if I came off rude, I just had to address this.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  16. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Since people are hype over how good Aegi is as an offensive Pivot

    Let's make a set that's really good at being an offensive Pivot

    Aegislash @ Life Orb
    Ability: Stance Change
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Quiet Nature
    - Shadow Ball
    - Iron Head
    - Sacred Sword
    - Shadow Sneak

    I decided I would start from max/max and work my way down, adding bulk as I found ideal areas for calcs. Then I started doing Calcs.

    Also please bar me I'm lazy and plugging in Deo-N with Ghost/Steel typing into this calc

    Notable calcs, mainly ones that net kills with rocks-
    Show Hide

    Flat out kills:

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 44.05% - 51.9%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def): 48.01 - 56.81%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 95.29 - 113.36%
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Skarmory (+SpDef) : 55.99% - 66.47%
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Latias: 90.66% - 107.97%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Sacred Sword vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 95.37% - 113.27%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Sacred Sword vs 4 HP/0 Def Mamoswine: 94.2% - 111.33% (Iron Head is obviously Guaranteed)
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Iron Head vs 252 HP/252 Def Sylveon (+Def) : 89.85% - 106.85%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Iron Head vs 252 HP/252 Def Florges (+Def) : 96.11% - 113.33%


    Attack + Shadow Sneak kills:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Garchomp: 66.48% - 78.49%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 27.65% - 32.96%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 200 HP/0 SpDef Landorus-T: 68.02% - 80.22%
    252 -1 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 200 HP/244 Def Landorus-T: 14.91% - 17.89%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 248 HP/8 SpDef Gyarados: 52.67% - 61.83%
    252 -1 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 248 HP/252 Def Gyarados (+Def) : 13.99% - 16.28%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Keldeo: 70.06% - 83.02%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP/0 Def Keldeo: 32.41% - 38.58%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Terrakion: 70.06% - 83.02%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 32.41% - 38.58%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Salamence: 75.6% - 89.16%
    252 -1 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 4 HP/0 Def Salamence: 22.59% - 27.41%

    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Sacred Sword vs 248 HP/8 Def Heatran: 69.61% - 82.34%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 248 HP/8 Def Heatran: 23.38% - 27.79%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 244 HP/0 SpDef Gliscor: 75.28% - 88.64%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 244 HP/40 Def Gliscor (+Def) : 19.89% - 23.58%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Deoxys-N (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Azumarill: 62.13% - 73.27%
    252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-N Shadow Sneak vs 252 HP/4 Def Azumarill: 28.22% - 33.66%


    Turns out, Max/Max Aegi is way better than investing in bulk. Ever.

    In short: Does it live very long? No. Not enough bulk. Not enough speed. Shield stance will only help you tank so many hits with Life Orb and hazards chewing at you.

    Does this set force switches and nuke the living hell out of everything? "Yes" doesn't even begin to describe the answer to this.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
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  17. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    With calculations like that, it no longer forces switches, lol. Its better to sac the pokemon you have out, and bring in the Pursuit user afterwards to prevent that crap from happening again. Nice set, once again.

    There are only a few pokemon where Iron Head is useful against. Fairy Switch-ins are the best bet, because Aegislash really should be playing "Shadow Ball Spam", with maybe the occasional switch into Sacred Sword. The number of `mon that can take Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak are few and far between...
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    How did i forget it? Without a Speed hindering nature you still play exactly as you did before, but you can outspeed a few more Pokemon.
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  19. BROloom

    BROloom

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    First off, I thought it was pretty obvious any time I mentioned shadow sneak and shadow claw, they were the chosen ghost move on two separate sets, not together on the same one. As for the hippowdon stuff, Aegislash can 2HKO even with lefties involved, but I did forget to add lefties twice (kings shield usage), but, either way, Hippowdon kills because he'll be faster, and thus achieve his 2HKO first.

    As for Togekiss, none of his sets in BW ran encore, and I wouldn't assume he would unless it was made to counter Aegislash, but there are far better dedicated options for that. And of course the best strategy is shadow claw, I've said I don't get the point of shadow sneak on his sets, but I calculated them anyway, just in case somebody wanted to know how a shadow sneak set would hold up.

    King's shield allows you to stay in. Without it, after one attack you are now your attacking state, meaning anything that comes in will attack first, and will kill you. Kings shield is to revert you back to a defensive state so you can take that hit, then KO. That's why you'd run king's shield on any non choice, non autotomize set, because you need it to stand up to any attacks.
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  20. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Not even that, you still outpace base 50 with -Spe (which notably includes Mega Aggron and Azumarill), so you're only losing on other 60s and base 55. So essentially: Blissey (can't hurt you), Magnezone (runs speed), Jellicent (often runs speed), and other Aegislash. Not a huge loss.

    Edit: Good job there with those speed tiers there alexwolf
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  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Hippowdon, Chansey, Blissey, Donphan, and probably more that i am forgetting. Also, regarding what you said read my last post where i addressed this.
  22. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    Why stay in, when you can instead switch out, and then tear down the next wall? Did you see the damage that UltiMario's 2nd set can do? If you want to revert to Shield Form, just switch out. Why waste a move-slot to enter Shield Form to *maybe* tank the incoming Earthquake, when you can just switch to Gyarados / Salamence?? (both of whom also resist a potential Fire Blast).

    Gyarados / Aegishield and Salamence / Aegishield form excellent Offensive / Defensive cores. They do it all, covering each other's weaknesses, and using Intimidate / Stance Change to gain the advantage in switch-wars and pivot battles. There is no need to use King's Shield to actually gain an edge against the opponent.

    But the opportunity costs for King's Shield are huge. King's Shield gimps your pokemon and gives setup opportunities to the opponent. In contrast, switching-out is a cheap and conservative play. Why are you so hesitant to switch your `mon out when it faces a threat it can't handle?

    Again, outside of pursuit users, King's Shield doesn't seem to actually give any benefits to Aegishield's matchups.
  23. BROloom

    BROloom

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    Because if you're using a sword dance set, you want to stay in and destroy everything, otherwise you'd be better off running a choice band if you're going to switch every damn time. Not everyone has a team full of users going to EQ you, at a certain point, those will be gone, and then there is little left to scare Aegislash, since anything physical without EQ now has to deal with -2 attack. And who said anything about not switching a mon out on something it can't handle? Because I sure didn't, so I hope you're not trying to shove words in my mouth. With sword dance and kings shield, having kings shield isn't about using it on mons you can't handle, it's about using it so that you don't have to switch out on stuff you CAN handle, so you don't have to set up a sword dance set again when you want to switch back in as your defensive state, you can just use kings shield, go to your defensive form, be immune from the hit that turn, and proceed to be able to actually take a hit, stay at +2, and kill the mon in front of you.

    I'm glad there are other sets like Ultimario's second set, but I'm talking about the sword dance set, thanks.

    Speaking of Ultimario's set, I'm confused at your "flat out kills" calculations, in those early ones, you're not KOing Hippowdon or Ferrothorn, yet they are OHKOing you in return. If you're talking about forcing switches and nuking the living hell out of everything, why not just run a choice band set? It achieves the same point with more natural hitting power. Hell, with that set anyway, without the bulk in HP, Salamance, heatran, Gliscor and Garchomp all OHKO you, while Azuramill Waterfall+Aqua jets to kill you.
    Hipponwdon being slower means he kill you in one EQ, same with Donphan. Chansey and Blissey are hardly worth worrying about, they won't dare come in on you (or they go bye bye).

    Azuramill with base 50 speed, adamant nature no speed EV's has 136 speed, Aegislash with a negative speed nature with 0 speed IV's has 112 speed, while with a neutral nature and 31 speed IVs, you have 156 speed. Azuramill isn't a good example, because he can kill regardless, but if you're faster, you can hit it, then die, while if you're slower, you can take just over 50% (if 252HP), hit it for good damage, then switch out for something else to take it out. If I was gong to stay in there, I'd much rather be slower (not that I would stay in anyway, before dragontamer gets on my back).

    Edit: The point of being slower is essentially to help a core, or come back in later. Being faster lets you hit and die, but being slower lets you hit, then exit while still alive. Being alive can let you come in later, and kill the things that can't finish you off (which there will be some) or can let you use him as death fodder later in the match. It seems very strange to me that you think that doing damage and dying is as useful and doing damage, then being able to switch out.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
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  24. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,967
    Only if you run Speed IVs. Running 0 IVs with a -Spe nature lets you Speed tie neutral base 38s, if you so desire.

    And, of course, if they don't try slowing themselves any to outslow Aegislash if it becomes desirable.
  25. UltiMario

    UltiMario

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,148
    Those things only become desirable to underspeed if you're actually using King's Shield, which we should have established at this point isn't a good move.

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