Pokémon Aegislash

[BROloom]

Heatran is a viable counter regardless. Just by base speed alone you can just outspeed and punish with Flamethrower/Fire Blast, there's no way your getting off a +2 Sacred Sword on him.
It's extremely easy to switch into Aegis if you are running the King's Shield set as there are multiple windows where I can switch in:

A) When you actually Swords Dance. Heatran got a free switch-in and Aegis can't do jack as +2 Shadow Sneak tells a very grim tale about Aegislash's fate.

Offensive heatran does 85.18 - 100.61% with fire blast to aegislash, while sacred sword at +2 KO's in return. Heatran isn't as fool proof as you're making him sound. (presuming 252HP Aegislash)

 

[Dragontamer]

I don't get where your going with this. You're talking about pokemon that will beat Aegislash no matter what, and expecting me to pull a way to 100% KO them.

The problem is that 2nd mario set you were talking about suffers the same problems as far as the sword dance set, he posted stats about how X pokemon switches in on the perfect move... Why would your opponent be switching in on the perfect move? You're talking about respecting your opponent, then you expect them to do stuff like that.

And then it comes to the fact that a SD/KS set can do EXACTLY the same thing, while a Garchomp is alive, while a Gliscor is is still around, you don't SD, but instead act as a pivot, and start weakening those walls, meaning they'll be easy to finish of later, and will be finished of later. That is the EXACT way marios set dealt with those threats, and it's the exact way a SD set deals with those threats early game.

SD/KS does not have the moveslot to run Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak, which is what prevents him from getting owned by Gliscor and Garchomp. Life Orb 252/252 Sp. Atk / Atk Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak kills those two cold. SD set either gets Swords Dance off and is forced to switch out, or hits with Shadow Claw / Iron Head and Gliscor roosts off the damage anyway. SD / KS does not have the shear power that the mixed-attacking set has. Basically, Mix-set straight up kills those "counters". It is incredibly difficult to even find a counter to the mix-set. At best, I can only find checks (ie: Togekiss, who doesn't like to switch into Iron Head. But is able to switch into Swords Dance or Shadow Claw). In contrast, Swords Dance / King's Shield set has hard counters in common pokemon.

You see, I'll take "Togekiss" as a smart switchin vs Aegishield, because Aegishield doesn't want to spam crappy Steel attacks against blind switchins. Shadow-ball is the default attack of choice. On the other hand, Gliscor and Garchomp almost never will be a smart-switchin against Mix-Aegishield, due to getting 2HKOed by the combination Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak combo.

The problem with his Aegislash (which again, is not a bad set, but it's not so superior like you're making out), is that it has no way to take a hit, that's why I showed you dragonite, that's why I showed you Azumarill, because they can come in, and scare Aegislash off. In one case, you're possibly letting Dnite get up a dragon dance, or in both, you're letting a switch in get hit hard, and they aren't the only pokemon that have this situation. A choice scarf Keldeo can come in and threaten to revenge kill marios 2nd set, which takes 113.02 - 133.33 damage from hydro pump. While if you KS to get into your defensive stance, you're talking 42.59 - 50.3%, and KOing it in return. That's where the magic of the KS set shines, because it can serve as an extra wall to take a hit, but then still KO any opponent with ease.

No. Fire-Punch Dragonite is afraid of -2 from King's Shield. Azumarill spams Play Rough / Aqua Jet / Waterfall, which are all contact moves and takes a -2 from King's Shield. No intelligent opponent will ever switch those pokemon into Aegishield.

Scarf Keldeo however, is finally an example of a pokemon that I will accept as proving your point however. It is finally a revenge-switchin that I consider "not supremely stupid" against Aegishield. So I can accept your point with that example.

-------------------------

Next order of business: Heatran is a CHECK, not a counter. Heatran switches in safely against Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Swords Dance, or Iron Head. Heatran also switches in on a "revenge kill" move and stops +2 Aegislash's sweep. It is reasonable to expect Aegislash to be spamming these attacks.

Heatran is NOT a "counter". Here on Smogon, a "counter" is reserved for winning the most difficult of all battles. Heatran must be able to switch into any attacks on a set (that is, Heatran cedes a free attack to Aegislash), and THEN still win the fight. Heatran fails to meet this criteria, because of Sacred Sword.

Similarly, Togekiss fails to "counter" any Aegislash that is running Iron Head or Swords Dance. Togekiss outspeeds and walls with Roost and hits hard with (possibly Nasty-Plotted) Shadow Balls. It makes for a decent check if you're sure the opponent isn't running Swords Dance (which allow Aegislash to bulk up and outdamage Togekiss's roost).

 

[Dragontamer]

Skarm checks Aegislash hard. Don't forget about Taunt.

Erm... I don't think thats how it works.

Turn 1.
You switch in Skarmory
Aegislash Swords Dances to +2

Turn 2.
Skarmory uses Taunt
Aegislash uses Shadow Claw

Turn 3.
Skarmory uses Brave Bird, fails to KO even Sword Form Aegislash
Aegislash uses Shadow Claw. Skarmory dies.

---------------------

With a different set:

Turn 1.
You switch in Skarmory. Skarm takes 12.5% dmg from Stealth Rocks
Aegislash Swords Dances to +2

Turn 2.
Skarmory uses Taunt
Aegislash uses Shadow Claw

Turn 3.
Aegislash uses Shadow Sneak. Skarmory dies.

 

[Garchompi]

Now that the hype has died out a little I can safely say Aegislash can't sweep. It's overly reliant on forme switching with King's Shield, making it extremely predictable.
It usually goes like this:

Turn 1
*opponent sends Aegislash in against something it can force out*

Turn 2
*I send out my Aegislash check/counter*
*Aegislash uses Swords Dance*

Turn 3
*My check counter uses WoW, Substitute, Recover or Protect or something like that*
*Aegislash attacks and fails to KO, while changing into sword form*

Turn 4
*Aegislash uses King's Shield to avoid getting OHKO'd*
*since I'm not an idiot and I can see this coming from a mile away I won't blindly use physical contact moves on this turn*

Turn 5
*see turn 3*

...rinse and repeat.

The above is precisely why the Swords Dance set sucks. With only 2 attacking moves it has plenty of checks and it simply can't afford to drop King's Shield or it will be OHKO'd by virtually anything after its first attack.
Aegislash should not be used as a sweeper, but rather as a tank with King's Shield + 3 attacks (Sacred Sword, Iron Head and Shadow Claw/Shadow Sneak). This way it can do its job.

 

[BROloom]

No. Fire-Punch Dragonite is afraid of -2 from King's Shield. Azumarill spams Play Rough / Aqua Jet / Waterfall, which are all contact moves and takes a -2 from King's Shield. No intelligent opponent will ever switch those pokemon into Aegishield.

Scarf Keldeo however, is finally an example of a pokemon that I will accept as proving your point however. It is finally a revenge-switchin that I consider "not supremely stupid" against Aegishield. So I can accept your point with that example.

-------------------------

This is what I don't get here, you're saying KS is a crappy move, and that nobody will run it in OU months from now, because it's an inferior set, yet you're saying pokemon won't try to revenge kill fearing the kings shield.

THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. With king's shield, those pokemon are scared to revenge kill you, because they cannot revenge kill you (d-nite can try to dragon dance expecting the KS, but again, can't OHKO regardless), thats the whole point I've been making, if you have kings shield, no player can use those to revenge kill, while without kings shield (aka, the mixed sets), they can use them to revenge kill. That was the whole point I was making! With KS they can't revenge, while without, they can, and that's the mixed sets problem if it doesn't have king's shield, it's easily revenge killed.

That's the whole point I've been making, that's why the king's shield set is useful, because dragonite can't try to KO you, because CB Azumarill can't KO you, pursuiters, scarf Keldeo, etc. KS makes it so all they can do is damage you as best they can and die, and hope something else can finish you off, but by that point they've already lost too much to bring the match back.

I'm not trying to say one set is better than the other, but you we're saying there is no reason to run the KS set, that it was inferior, and I'm pretty sure I've proved that it's not, it just have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[BROloom]

played a little over 20 games on ladder tonight, nice to see my sets a few times

I haven't been using Aegi much myself, but the SD sets are inconvenient to play around but that's about it. Anything with passable physical bulk can take a Shadow Sneak. I had my 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra take a +6 Shadow Sneak, which really is a testament to how weak that shit really is. IIRC it was leftovers though, but LO SD Aegi still has caused me limited problems. I've had more trouble taking down Gyro Ball Eviolite Doublade than the SD Aegis, honestly.

Still don't get why a SD+KS set runs shadow sneak, it's bad, it's too weak to do anything reliably, just hope to finish off everything already weak, running shadow sneak over shadow claw stops it from sweeping, stops it from being an effective pivot, and just makes it all around meh.

The above is precisely why the Swords Dance set sucks.

Why is that user staying in on something that is going to will-o-wisp and use status moves? All that shows is why it's not an I win button, and can be played badly by a bad player. Also, what is your check/counter, and how much does it take from a LO shadow claw/sacred sword if it switches in on it? Because if you have a counter, no smart player should be trying to set up a sword dance at that point.

 

[Dragontamer]

This is what I don't get here, you're saying KS is a crappy move, and that nobody will run it in OU months from now, because it's an inferior set, yet you're saying pokemon won't try to revenge kill fearing the kings shield.

THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. With king's shield, those pokemon are scared to revenge kill you, because they cannot revenge kill you (d-nite can try to dragon dance expecting the KS, but again, can't OHKO regardless), thats the whole point I've been making, if you have kings shield, no player can use those to revenge kill, while without kings shield (aka, the mixed sets), they can use them to revenge kill. That was the whole point I was making! With KS they can't revenge, while without, they can, and that's the mixed sets problem if it doesn't have king's shield, it's easily revenge killed.

Maybe you should see things from my perspective. I am here, listening to you tell me about how King's Shield works against random pokemon that fail to revenge kill Aegislash. But as I stated before, the opponent chooses who switch in on the revenge kill. Aegislash is revenge killed by anything that can take a Shadow Sneak, has faster than 60 base speed, and has a powerful non-contact Fire, Ghost, Dark, or Ground attack.

The restriction to "non-contact moves" barely budges the numbers. A huge number of Pokemon can safely revenge kill Aegislash. Months from now when people are utilizing the "revenge kill opening" to set up Mega-Blastoise Dark Pulses, Mega-Garchomp Earthquakes, or Mega-Gengar Shadow Balls, perhaps you'll feel bad for wasting a turn and moveslot on King's Shield. With 60 base speed, it is straight up impossible for Aegislash to "sweep" and keep momentum. Leave the "momentum sweeps" to Garchomp or Mega-Lucario. Trying for a wonky slow sweep without support of recovery items (neither leftovers nor a healing move) just doesn't seem like a good strategy to me.

And btw: Dragonite CAN dragon dance, and then Earthquake you. +1 Earthquake OHKOs Aegislash in Shield Form. That is what is so scary about Dragonite: it learns everything. If I see Dragonite switch into Aegislash, I am going to have to assume the worst. If Dragonite ends up fire-punching me, well yes, it was my mistake for overestimating my opponent. King's Shield would have been useful vs the Fire Punch set... but by nature of Dragonite switching into Aegislash, I have to give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent. I'm going to be expecting Fire Blast or Earthquake.

Ya, so just saying, but my Furfou tanks the crap out of Aegislash all day. Only saying that because the guy who posted this only had like 3-4 counters / checks for him. Even Sacred Sword doesn't do too much, especially if your Furfou has leftovers. Plus as soon as you enter battle, just charm the thing until it's attack is worthless, then start chipping away with suckerpunch. I know all you crazy metagamers are gonna laugh at me for even suggesting a Furfou be in a viable team, but I laugh back because he is beastly.

On the contrary. Its too early to hate on new Pokemon. 2x physical defense makes it rather strong: with just 0hp/252Def, it seems to be equivalent to freaking 252/252 Def Hippowdon. I've been looking for a physical "normal" wall actually, and it seems that Furfou walls every non-Flash Cannon Aegislash set that has been mentioned so far. The problem however, is that Furfrou Cotton Guard doesn't effect Sacred Sword (which ignores defense boosts). I'm unsure if Sacred Sword ignores Furfrou's ability... assuming the ability is not ignored, then 0 / 252 Furfrou is 3HKOed by Sacred Sword, and likely switches in safely vs shadow ball / shadow claw.

Also, Furfrou doesn't seem to do anything while it walls. Most walls can threaten entry-hazards of some kind... but Furfrou just seems to have T-Wave.

 

[alexwolf]

No
I'll concede that SD + 3 attacks isn't viable though.

Actually from my short testing i would say it is. LO +2 Shadow Sneak OHKOes most offensive Pokemon after SR and everything slower just gets crushed. Of course physical walls such as Skarmory and Hippo are problems and this is why you use another physical sweeper with similar counters beforehand). And even if you don't manage to setup, LO Shadow Sneak is a very good revenge killing tool.

 

[Slheyas]

Aegislash is utterly predictable atm, and if it doesn't change it's gonna be its downfall.

I never fail to beat it with Talonflame.

1) Aegislash appears
2) Switch into Talonflame
3) Aegislash uses SD
4) Aegislash uses King's Shield, Talonflame use Sword Dance
5) Flare Blitz (OHKOs Shield Form at +2)
6) Dead Aegislash

+2 Shadow Sneak can't ohko Talonflame and if for some weird ass reason the opponent doesn't use Shadow Sneak he still dies because OKHO behind the shield.

+2 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 211-250 (61.87 - 73.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heck, Talonflames carrying Will'O'Wisp laugh at Aegislash.

 

[Kalut123]

so with the checks of hippowdon and gliscor i could c HP water working. anyone with me?

HP Ice is much better because of the 4x Super-effective. Also, a few people are with ya on that statement, just not HP Water.

Though you wont' get much mileage against Hippo as that thing is a freakin tank; previous calcs in this thread go to show that
Shadow Ball is better in that instance and only upon the switch. To be frank, I would never go toe-to-toe with Hippo.

I know that Kings Sheild apparently stops momentum, but if you're p against a dark type physical attacker, say weavile for example, weavile outspeeds and can KO if Aegislash is in offensive mode or even in defensive mode with night slash. You use king's shield if you feel that it's going to go for the easy KO, lowers it's attack. this is when you switch to something that can counter that. (I would say another steel type, but now they don't resist dark) so a fairy type (though they're not all too good) or a megahoundoom which after the attack drop can take any hit weavile can throw at it. or a lot of other physical walls.
King's Shield is meant for those who want to play Aegislash more conservatively/ wants to boost up more after the fact... at least that's what I've done in Battle Maison. but the fact that Aegislash can go special (but that would require king's shield for every attack, mainly because you don't want to get destroyed after every hit) and physical and possibly stall just shows how versitile a pokemon Aegislash is. It mainly functions as a physical wall though with king's shield. can it learn rest?

King's Shield isn't too bad. But it makes it easier for its counters to make mincemeat out of Aegislash.
Remove those counters and Aegislash is home free to obliterate your opponent.
It's too bad that the number of counters for the KS/SD set are common OU pokes. That's why the Special Set w/HP Ice minimizes those counters and allows Aegis to sweep on his lonesome.

I wouldn't bother with Rest, King's Shield and Lefties is a decent enough recovery; you wouldn;t want to cripple yourself and defeat the purpose of walling. It's better off as a bulky offensive mon in that regard.
Also the Special Set runs Autotomize which allows it to outspeed most pokes roughly past the 400 Speed Stat, thus removing any need to switch into Shield Stance.


Since we're on the subject, what base Speed pokes can uninvested Aegislash outspeed with Sticky Web active? With particular investment and/or +nature?

 

[BROloom]

Maybe you should see things from my perspective. I am here, listening to you tell me about how King's Shield works against random pokemon that fail to revenge kill Aegislash. But as I stated before, the opponent chooses who switch in on the revenge kill. Aegislash is revenge killed by anything that can take a Shadow Sneak, has faster than 60 base speed, and has a powerful non-contact Fire, Ghost, Dark, or Ground attack.

The restriction to "non-contact moves" barely budges the numbers. A huge number of Pokemon can safely revenge kill Aegislash. Months from now when people are utilizing the "revenge kill opening" to set up Mega-Blastoise Dark Pulses, Mega-Garchomp Earthquakes, or Mega-Gengar Shadow Balls, perhaps you'll feel bad for wasting a turn and moveslot on King's Shield.

Why do you not get this?

King's shield isn't for -2 to attack, it's for putting you in the defensive stance, the -2 is a bonus, so please for the love of everything, stop talking about the -2 as if that's all the matters. Without king's shield, you are stuck with 60/60/60 defences, anything, even neutral damaging moves can scare you off, especially when you're not running any HP evs. King's shield stops damage and puts you into your defensive stance even if it's non contact. Aegislash isn't revenged killed by much at all, unless you don't have kings shield, in which case it's revenged by almost everything, I don't get how you can't see that.

You're saying that king's shield should never be ran, because there are better moves, then saying that no player would put X pokemon in front of you BECAUSE of kings shield. You're admitting by having king's shield, that an opponent won't put that pokmeon against your aegislash, acknowledging that it stops certain pokemon from countering, revenge killing or pursuiting you, where without it, they can.

Anyway, I'm going to have to be done replying to you soon, because for some reason, you keep bringing up the -2 as if that's the sole reason for kings shield, ignoring its main benefit of switching your stance, essentially admitting it's use and deciding to ignore it, which means you'll never get it through your head, no matter what I tell you.

 

[BROloom]

Aegislash is utterly predictable atm, and if it doesn't change it's gonna be its downfall.

I never fail to beat it with Talonflame.

1) Aegislash appears
2) Switch into Talonflame
3) Aegislash uses SD
4) Aegislash uses King's Shield, Talonflame use Sword Dance
5) Flare Blitz (OHKOs Shield Form at +2)
6) Dead Aegislash

+2 Shadow Sneak can't ohko Talonflame and if for some weird ass reason the opponent doesn't use Shadow Sneak he still dies because OKHO behind the shield.

+2 252+ Atk (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 211-250 (61.87 - 73.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Heck, Talonflames carrying Will'O'Wisp laugh at Aegislash.

So, you've shown that the Aegislash user is stupid in that scenario and nothing else.

1) Aegislash appears
2) Switch into Talonflame
3) Aegislash uses SD
4) Talonflame either Sword dances or Flare Blitz (Adamant LO set would have a chance of killing Aegislash however)
5) Aegislash attacks with Shadow claw
6) Dead Talonflame

In your scenario, a bad player hasn't scouted what set you are, has gambled that you aren't a sword dance talonflame, and has died because of it, that's a bad player, not a bad Aegislash. In my scenario, he's either scouted that you are the SD set, or he's not stupid and isn't willing to risk you not being the SD set, and proceeds to OHKO you, that's a good player, and a good Aegislash. There is no good reason to use King's shield in that scenario unless he knows your a CB set, and if he doesn't know, and even if he does, the best choice is to just switch out in the first place if he was stupid enough to try and set up.

Not taking Shadow sneak isn't weird at all, taking shadow sneak on the SD set is massively inferior to taking shadow claw.

Also, if he doesn't know what Talonflame you are in the first place, he shouldn't be setting up, since if you switch in to an unboosted shadow claw, 124HP Talonflame takes 73.78 - 86.89%, making your switch in a really bad idea.

 

[alexwolf]

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 168 Spd / 244 Atk / 96 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Ball

Great wallbreaker and great tank. Spooky Belt retains most of the OHKOes and 2HKOes of Life Orb but doesn't cut down Aegislash's great bulk. Speed EVs outspeed min Speed Goodra and positive-natured 130s at +2 (i am using this thing with SmashPass support).

 

[BROloom]

Just a quick question, presmuing my calculations are correct, if you're running a Autotomize set, if there any point of running more than 96 speed Evs (if Jolly/Timid)? 96 Speed EVs mean at +2 you out speed all positive natured base 130's, and at +4 speed you outspeed all scarfers.

If a Adamant/Modest nature, then 168 speed EV's allow you to achieve the same points.

Edit: Would need speed EV at 232 to ouspeed jolly dragonite at +1, and 240 to outspeed offensive gyarados at +1, so I guess it depends on if you want to outspeed those.

 

[UltiMario]

Just a quick question, presmuing my calculations are correct, if you're running a Autotomize set, if there any point of running more than 96 speed Evs (if Jolly/Timid)? 96 Speed EVs mean at +2 you out speed all positive natured base 130's, and at +4 speed you outspeed all scarfers.

If a Adamant/Modest nature, then 168 speed EV's allow you to achieve the same points.

Edit: Would need speed EV at 232 to ouspeed jolly dragonite at +1, and 240 to outspeed offensive gyarados at +1, so I guess it depends on if you want to outspeed those.

To not have to tank an Earthquake from scarfers, namely Landorus-T. Even in Shield Stance you take:

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs 160 HP/0 Def (Custom): 83.72% - 98.34%

That's with the MAXIMUM bulk you could run with 96 Spe EVs.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Deoxys-D: 96.55% - 113.41%
And that's if you're investing everything in offense.

If you're carrying, say, HP Ice and are running 244 Spe +Spe, you outpace and OHKO stuff like Lando-T. Autotomize is more about raw offense since it can't afford to carry king's shield (nor can it afford to take the extra hit because there's not really room for investing in adequate bulk), so you're basically better off trying to outspeed everything and KO it before you can get KO'd, which base 150 offenses allow Aegi to handily do.

Not to mention, with Autotomize sets, you're not carrying Shadow Sneak, so you want to outspeed even faster stuff like Mega Aerodactyl/Alakazam and OHKO them since without bulk you're not going to be taking their Earthquakes or Shadow Balls very well.

 

[kd24]

so i've begun cleaning out the first few pages of this thread, i'll be continuing tomorrow, as will other ou mods. here are some posts found in the first ~6 pages of the thread that i deleted but felt that maybe i could bring back in a way that the user could think about what they could do to improve it. you don't have to respond but this is just a way of thinking. for all i know these questions posed already have been answered and discussed thoroughly on later pages i just havent gotten around to yet, but fwiw this is for those users specifically. i'm omitting usernames so they don't need to reveal their post was deleted or so that people don't think anyone who posted these are stupid, because they aren't. this isn't a callout, this is hoping you can see where a post went wrong and what you might be able to do to improve it. hell, i might miss something you could do as well, but im hoping this is a push that helps.

I can see him synergize very well with Reuniclus if a Trick Room set is being run. Priority + moving first anyways could be quite strong.

Why? He's weak to dark-type and ghost-type attacks, already has Priority Shadow Sneak, and this is a mon that 1.) is using a protect move which wastes TR turns and 2.) would rather attack second in most cases to not become vulnerable to attacks. What does he do for trick room that would somehow balance out that much of a trade-off?

252 Hp 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
Item: Liechi Berry
Moves:
Automatize
Substitute
Iron Head
Sacred Sword

This set is made to be a late-game sweeper. With it being in Shield Forme when it switches in, it will be easier to set up and harder for people to break your sub. Proceed to Substitute and set up on their face. With +6 speed, nothing is going to outspeed you, even in OU. Plus, if you substall a little bit, you are rewarded with an attack boost, which helps in taking down all of your troubles. Remember, this set is meant to late game sweep. Take out all of Aegislash's hard counters, and THEN use it. Test it out and see how it treats you!

if you tested this, what did you find you subbed on while being able to automatize. 3 times? is it even worth doing so? why go for this much set up when you still straight up lose to skarmory (while also struggling vs just mons that resist iron head like politoed, starmie, etc) rather than use king's shield and/or swords dance. what does this set offer you? these are questions you need to answer when trying to advocate a set of this nature because saying "take down all his hard counters" could be said for any pokemon using any set. why does aegislash's hard counters lead themselves to getting picked off easier so that this set would be more useful?

Bisharp or anything with defiant counters Aegislash pretty hard being able to stall out king's shield because they can keep attacking without fearing the drop from king's shield

http://www.smogon.com/bw/abilities/defiant

I'm not sure which (if any) new mons get it, but why would anything counter Aegislash from this list? With the exception of Empoleon these seem like poor options overall, the real question is "can these mons beat aegislash?" You might be able to just score lucky wins vs someone who doesn't understand how Defiant works, but if sacred sword catches on, Bisharp dies. the other real question is: if this mon can beat this mon, is it reason enough to use it? what other advantages does bisharp (or another defiant user) have overall to be brought up in a discussion about aegislash as a potential counter, if it's role is so narrow that it can only defeat Aegislash (something that other mons already can do).

Mixed Slash is going to work well, but only as an Automotize Set imho. It's going to need LO as well, and Kings Shield, along with Sacred Sword/Shadow Claw, which is 3 already. Maybe run HP Ice to nail Landorus? You don't need HP Fire since you destroy Scizor by KSing in its face, but it could work as well.
The main drawback is the need for some kind if recovery with LO, which is going to kill your momentum thanks to having no recovery options outside of Wish Passing.

what is your reasoning to this though? is it really worth it in your example to use hp ice for landorus when you could have a tough time taking earthquakes in the first place? You're giving up your strongest move in Iron Head, which also acts as fairy coverage, in order to accommodate the mixed set, along with having to mix evs presumably. so the question you need to answer here when posting this is "what advantages does it hold over the standard sets that have shown up".

One of the more interesting (and unnoticed) things about Aegislash, I think, is that it can utilize BOTH of its attack stats. I know a Sword using special attacks sounds odd, but the stats are there, and Aegislash at least has dualSTAB in the form of Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon, as well as Hidden Power (though it's stuck at 60 power, since you're focusing on SpA you can get good coverage out of it.)
So maybe a set like:

Aegislash @ Life Orb (or a Choice Specs or whatever)
Trait: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpA, 4 SpD
~ Flash Cannon
~ Shadow Ball
~ King's Shield
~ Hidden Power Ice/Fairy/Grass (depending on what counter you want to hit).

Sure, things like Chansey are more happy at this set, but half the opponents seeing this thing aren't going to switch Chansey into something that can slice it with Sacred Sword.

Not sure what other special options this thing gets though.

It gets Flash Cannon as well, so it can run Dual STABS. As I've said a few times, Special Aegislash is good - it loses movepool (read: a good Fighting Move) to defeat every one of its normal, physical counters.

The first post here, you need to discuss why this is worth running over the standard set. what advantage does this give you and why should it be run, despite a shallow movepool regardless? this leads into the second post where

I like where this second post is headed if you feel it's true, now finish it by detailing a list of his normal counters and why special aegislash gets through them and if that trade-off is worth giving up the physical set (which it very well may be). off the top of my head, i could throw skarmory into the debate as an "answer" to aegislash's normal physical set, so what would change here. it's important to note these things because it justifies your decision other than users reading the thread having to take your word on it.

this could easily have the potential of being a great complete post by posting a set, justifying why you would use it (it defeats all of its normal counters), expanding on why it beats those counters, and finally wrapping up with which mons would benefit from those specific mons being taken care of. it seems like a lot, but it's the justification that counts

And no one is mentioning that Aegislash is an amazing spinblocker? Forry cant touch it as it SDs, Starmie is likely OHKOed by sneak and outside of Scald Tenta cant do jack? Only problem is excadrill but he isn't hard to get rid of anyway (since greninja can kill it and set up spikes again, for example).

while we obviously know it's a great spinblocker, i feel like this post would've been better suited if we explored how aegislash will change rapid spinners. will forry run earthquake to deal with it? how many layers of spikes can it comfortably lay on Aegi before being threatened? Can we really ignore tenta's scald for no reason? if aegi is burned, it's all over for the most part, and tenta resist's iron head and sword. "ignoring" scald just doesn't seem like a smart plan at all. excadrill as you said is a problem. so really, this post could've been used thinking of how will aegislash's role as an amazing spinblocker shape the future meta, rather than "its a great spin blocker, this is a list of common rapid spinners"

Physical Sweeper Variant
Cons
-Not fast enough to use super effective/stab moves effectively to actually KO targets in one hit.
-Priority move too low base power to sweep with by itself even with STAB even with 1x SD set-up. Needs two SD to equal the power of a STAB outrage.
-Very susceptible to status affliction to cripple its ability to sweep.

I see lots of issues with Aegislash right here for lots of these physical sweeper set-ups. Its cool, but it has those same Scizor issues when Scizor got Technician/Bullet Punch idea.

Instead I think Aegislash makes an excellent choice band user. With choice items you'll be doing lots of switching. Automatically, appearing in the fight with high defences and defensive typing allows it to easily tank a hit, then hit back very hard since its slower. Tack on some healing support or any status restoration support to help correct for its inability to tank too many hits.

Aegislash @ Choiceband
Nature: Naughty
EV: 252 Attack/ 252 Health Points/4 Def
-Shadow Sneak
-Sacred Sword
-XXXX
-XXXX
Shadow Sneak for all general manner of revenge satisfaction and ghost types. Sacred Sword for Normal/Dark which would otherwise wall its ability to hit things with Shadow Sneak. The rest of its moves like Night Slash, Pursuit, Head Smash/RockSlide, Shadow Claw, Ironhead, etc. I think are all viable options, but simply depend upon what you want to end up wanting to take care of instead for threats. Ironhead would be perfect for any Fairy type. RockSlide/Head Smash are great for misc. flying types like Salamance, Gyarados, etc. ShadowClaw would give Aegislash a great STAB and neutral coverage.

I am not all to sure about the EV/Nature spread though. I could honestly see trying to figure out what it needs to outrun and invest HP evs into speed or even change the nature to brave.

i ended up keeping this post because i liked that you used a list of cons to form your opinion - and then you even answered why it might excel as a cber. but you need to get an understanding of the metagame more before suggesting a naught nature on a mon with all physical moves (your suggestion) rather than adamant, as well as more of an explanation as to these moves making aegi's case rather than just a "this move is super effective vs this mon". calcs would've been great here.

I can see potential in the following set if Stall goes well in the meta

Aegislash
Item: Chesto Berry
Ability: Stance Change
EV's: 252 Def, 252 S.Def, 4 att
Nature: Careful/adamant
Toxic
Rest
Kings shield
Sacred sword

Maybe some tweaking on it.... just a thought :)

there's too much confusion in this post: are you trying to say this will be good on stall teams? a stall breaker? a ghost to block rapid spin? why is this mon a better anti-spinner than a normal aegislash? is it worth being almost a non factor on offense to have a ghost that will have a decent shot of sticking around. why chesto berry, with changed sleep mechanics? is rest lefties just not better? why those 2 natures suggested, why adamant with only sacred sword being an attack? these are questions you have to answer in detail, and when doing so, you might see that this set doesn't have the appeal that it originally did.

I think you can overlook King's shield and simply run him as an all out Sweeper with Iron Head, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak and Swords Dance. Thoughts on that?

it's ok to use this as a discussion starter, but your initial question and opinion needs to be backed up with something. why do you believe it can be gotten rid of, what makes an all out sweeper better? is it the lack of coverage? is it that kings shield is too risky/easy to play around? starting a discussion isn't bad but you need to show why the discussion is worth having by citing your own experience or even just using logical theorymon to prove a point/establish a base

these are posts that stuck out to me while going through this thread. hopefully you can think about my comments if one of these posts belong to you and how you can improve them. honestly, i think we all (including myself) could improve our content for our posts so use this post as maybe a way to steer you into that great posting territory.

 

[Dragontamer]

Thank you for (starting to) clear out this thread. I think there are a lot of good sets here that has been lost in the pages and pages of discussion.

Once things are condensed down a bit, this thread will definitely be more manageable.

 

[BROloom]

I was actually thinking sucker punch is a rather unique tool to use against Aegislash not just because of the fact that it's SE, but like EQ, it doesn't have to worry about Kings shield lowering your stats, this is due to the fact if the Aegislash decides to KS, sucker punch will then fail, not make contact, and thus no stat drop (as far as I'm aware, could work differently though).

But the problem with that then exists to the fact PP stalling Sucker Punch doesn't take too long, and becomes a game of prediction, a risky one especially with Aegislash running sword dance or autotomize.

 

[amplafied]

Has anyone mentioned that smeargle counters Aegislash pretty easily?

I've noticed this too, Aegislash has huge weaknesses to Pokemon that inflict status conditions and normal types make his massive priority attack useless. I've got to remember to run Dark Void on Smeargle instead of Spore now, since that sleep move doesn't work on grass types now.

I've been using Aegislash as a counter for Scizor and it seems to be working. Being able to set up in the face of last generation's biggest OU threat while he pelts you with measly Pursuits is a great feeling. With proper use of King's Shield, his Swords Dance boosts are rendered useless as well. It's just a matter of taking one hit, using Sacred Sword then going in for the Shadow Sneak kill.

 

[Ballofire]

Using king shield against scizor just let's him switch for free, you might as well SD or Ironhead/SS predicting a possible check just for a bit of damage

 

[Kenpari]

Vaporeon is a perfect counter against Aegislash, I'd recommend having something to deal with it. I don't know how common it is in the meta anymore, but I run 252 HP/252 Def Vaporeon with Scald/Protect/Wish/Roar. Even a +2 shadow sneak won't hit for 50% HP and Aegislash is so easy to predict Vaporeon and use and abuse the wish capability.

I assume Vaporeon would fare well against special aegislash too, likely being able to roar it out before anything major with such bulky SpD and HP. Aegislash counters aren't too hard to come buy. Multiscale DDNite with Fire Punch/EQ also takes the cake because of Aegislash's predictable nature. You have to play the prediction game to really get anywhere with physical King's Shield/Swords Dance Aegislash.

 

[666lumberjack]

Can someone provide me with a valid reason why you would run Brave nature over Adamant here?

Why nerf a useful stat when you could be zeroing out a completely useless one? Not like that Sp. Atk is being used.

Pretty sure the idea behind a Brave nature is to make sure you go last so you can take a hit in shield stance and then retaliate rather than the other way round.
Spent the past couple of days laddering on showdown, this thing is really threatening with a super bulky spread so it can easily take random flamethrowers.

 

[Steel.Storm]

Can someone provide me with a valid reason why you would run Brave nature over Adamant here?

Why nerf a useful stat when you could be zeroing out a completely useless one? Not like that Sp. Atk is being used.

In general your Speed shouldn't matter as most of your Offense is coming from Priority Shadow Sneak anyways. However, in an Aegislash vs Aegislash situation, if both use Shadow Sneak then the slower one will win. i.e. Opponent will turn into Blade Forme, hit you (you sponge it in Shield Forme), then you hit back with an OHKOing Shadow Sneak since they are now in Blade Forme with crap Defenses.

This logic is not just limited to Aegislash vs Aegislash though. Being outsped and sponging a hit comfortably in Shield Forme and then hitting with a powerful Sacred Sword to knock the Opponent down into OHKO range of your Shadow Sneak for the following turn can be huge.

Edit: looks like Flygon beat me to the punch :p

 

[kd24]

So I've cleaned up this entire thread, please read this post below before furthering discussion. I want to say that if your post is still in this thread, it means it was acceptable or even a good post that provided some reasoning, or at the very least provided the concept of something competitive relating to the Pokemon. Try and read this thread as it is now to get an idea of the direction this thread should go. This thread will be more strictly moderated from this point.

General Notes on Aegislash

- Please use our resources before asking questions about how his effects work. Stance change is based on the Base stats, not the evs and nature. King's Shield and Protect doesn't stack. It comes back in with Shield Form. King's Shield is what turns it back. Etc.

- When discussing a potential teammate, explain why it'd be a good teammate. This means going beyond "it can switch into Dark-type attacks" or "it can Baton Pass Speed and Attack". Those traits could apply to any number of Pokemon, what makes Aegislash special? Talk about the potential checks and counters they're actually helping with, the overload the two of them could put on a team (Aegi weakens this potential counter and then this mon comes in), etc.

- If someone posts something that is incorrect, you don't need to answer it if someone else already has. If you're the first person to answer it, that's fine, but your post will be deleted (and theirs) will be deleted when a mod sees it because it doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. If you feel your post is important to clear up any misconceptions, (and it very well could be so important on it's own that it stays, but if not:) try to add actual content to it.

- Simple Questions/Simple Answers. Guys, a thread discussing a Pokemon doesn't mean you can ask every small question barely relating to that Pokemon, if there question doesn't directly relate to competitive play, ask in the simple questions/simple answers.

- If you're posing the question of "which one is better", think to yourself what the advantages and disadvantages are. Smogon is not meant to spoonfeed information to you in our discussion threads, so instead of asking "is Adamant or Brave better?" and leaving it at that, write down why you're considering both of them with an advantages/disadvantages list of each and let discussion spin off that. This applies heavily to moveset choices, one of the biggest "one liner questions" this thread contained.

- If you thought you had a legitimate discussion point / question that no one responded to, look back to the above bullet. Try to provide your own reasoning and answer for the question so that people can discuss off of your points and reasoning.

- If you're going to make claims, run actual calcs to back it up.

- No one cares about your anecdotal in-game evidence or that your team lets you get +6 everytime if you're not going to explain how and why. What is it about this Pokemon that lends itself to being able to boost up to +6 easily because of its teammates? Is it due to its counters being wary of actually switching in for some reason? Are you luring them with a good partner?

List of counters proposed in this thread:

- Conkeldurr
- Gyarados
- Doublade
- Bisharp
- Krookadile
- Hippowdon
- Garchomp
- Gliscor
- Hydreigon
- Heatran (when released)
- Landorus (when released)
- Zapdos
- Bulky Water-types
- Skarmory
- Forrestress
- Excadrill
- Donphan
- Mawile
- Blastoise
- Furfrou
- Talonflame
- Vaporeon

Explain why these Pokemon are worth using in OU now - some of them will be self-explanatory and probably don't need an explanation but for those who suggest Doublade and Krookadile and Donphan and others, what advantage do they provide in OU that makes running them worth it, as we already have several other viable counters already. What would they add to the table? And most importantly, are they even counters at all?

Question to be answered:
Which nature is actually the better choice? Adamant or Brave? WHY?

Who are the best teammates for Aegislash and why?

What does the Special Set beat that the SD set cannot? (Ultimario and others tries to explain this throughout but I think this could be answered in much more detail, self-explanatory but things like not as susceptible to burn (which would go through king's shield) is definitely a step in proving this) Why would Choice Band be a better choice? (dragontamer did a good job of giving explanation to this, so you might want to read his posts)

What are it's weaknesses? How might OU change around Aegislash and will the changes in OU/Aegislash's weaknesses show that it's not as good as we first thought?

Discuss the theory of King's Shield and why it may or may not be optimal (there is discussion on page 6 about this)

What can we do to mitigate the weaknesses of Aegislash and especially of his sets (how do we make up for dropping King's Shield, or running a CB set, etc)

If there is anything to take away from this thread, (which clearly needed a clean-up), then take this: We are not here to spoonfeed you information. Post your results, reasoning, explanations, and logic. Too many people are asking questions without providing any of their own insight, trying to collect summaries of what others have discussed. Read the thread (it's now significantly shorter) if you don't want to add to the discussion, but if you do, then say something that is worth it in some capacity. Even just a single counter and explaining why that counter is not only worth it but why it would be good in the general meta as well.

MagikaripIsOP, I don't mean to embarrass you or call you out, but understand your posts in this thread were unacceptable for the standards we have here. Your attitude of asking people to read the thread for you and summarize it, while saying "don't make me read through the thread" isn't how we add to a conversation. We are providing the resources right here with the thread, your posts did nothing but simply added more posts to scroll through.

 

[Xiammes]

I have been using Aegislash for Smogon Ubers beta and its doing a lot of work at the moment.

Aegislash @ Air Balloon
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- King's Shield
- Shadow Sneak
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword

King's Shield absolutely puts a stop to Extreme killer Arcues, the only common move Arcues runs that can hit him is shadow claw and I can just king shield that and cripple Arcues. Sacred Sword when they try to SD up or attack me(after the attack drop).

Gryo Ball absolutely wrecks Xerneas, Aegislash walls Xerneas hard and 1 gyroball after a Geomacy will kill him. Shadow Sneak wrecks Mewtwo and works as a excellent revenge killing move.

His speed catagory gives him a big advantage, since most threats will outspeed him, Aegislash can very well use both his immense bulk and immense attack power in the same turn, while still outspeeding pokemon like Ferrothorn and hitting him with a sacred sword.

I put 4 evs in special defense so Genesect won't get the SPA boost and hit it with a flamethrower.