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Pokémon Aegislash
- Thread starter ArkWelder
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Playing the ditto is another term for the mirror match from non-pokemon games which is what I meant.
Why are you caring about a matchup with a UU normal attacker at all lol. Putting it in speed allows you to use Aegislash as a check for itself, idk why you would ever pass that up
In a mirror matchup between two people both playing Aegislash, supposing that they both play it properly, the slower Aegis will actually be in a better position, since it will be Shadow Sneaking a Blade Aegis while the faster Aegis will be Sneaking a Shield Aegis.
Of course, this is all kind of irrelevant, since there's almost never going to be a situation where both players make the exact correct moves in any given situation, and the Aegis mirror match is honestly pretty luck dependent (or prediction dependent, call it what you will, getting 50/50 "predictions" correct, especially over the course of ~4 turns is luck in my book).
Regardless, the point is, in an Aegis mirror, the player with the slower Aegis can place more pressure on the player with the faster Aegis, simply because if both attack on the same turn and they're not at like +4/+6, the slower Aegislash wins. Running Speed on Aegis will not allow it to check other Aegis more effectively the vast majority of the time, and it's a pretty risky endeavor to use Aegis to check itself either way, since the mirror could easily end with your Aegis dead and your opponent's Aegis at something like +4 in Blade Form.
Physical Defense Mandibuzz is something that can destroy every Aegislash set with ease, undiscovered sets notwithstanding. Granted, Mandibuzz ended BW2 in NU, but I'm going to say that the general state of limbo we have in the tiers right now, as well as the buffs to the Dark type and Defog (which Mandibuzz both gets and benefits from) make it somewhat relevant to this discussion.
So it has 110/105/95 Defenses and Dark/Flying typing; it's not weak to any of Aegislash's attacks, resists the most important STAB, and has bulk to take the attacks. Foul Play allows it to easily beat boosting Aegislash. Special Aegislash doesn't take much from Foul Play while in Shield Stance, but you can lock it into attack stance with Taunt while not being 2HKOed by Flash Cannon. Because Foul Play works off of the enemy's attack stat rather than your own, attack drops from King's Shield don't matter.
Foul Play does 87.5 - 103.28% to a +2, 252 HP / 252 Atk+ Aegislash. The best it can do in return is +2 Iron Head which will do 52.48 - 61.93%
Flash Cannon from Quiet Aegislash does 39.71 - 46.8%. Foul Play murders Aegislash in attack stance (sword stance?), even with a 0 Atk IV and a hindering nature.
Of course, offensive counters are more likely to fit on a variety of teams, but there it is for what it's worth. I could say it worked decently well on ladder but....well, it's ladder. This isn't going to work for most teams, as it lets a few pretty dangerous threats get in for free (like Heatran and Azumarill). In terms of countering Aegislash, though, Mandibuzz is your bird.
So it has 110/105/95 Defenses and Dark/Flying typing; it's not weak to any of Aegislash's attacks, resists the most important STAB, and has bulk to take the attacks. Foul Play allows it to easily beat boosting Aegislash. Special Aegislash doesn't take much from Foul Play while in Shield Stance, but you can lock it into attack stance with Taunt while not being 2HKOed by Flash Cannon. Because Foul Play works off of the enemy's attack stat rather than your own, attack drops from King's Shield don't matter.
Foul Play does 87.5 - 103.28% to a +2, 252 HP / 252 Atk+ Aegislash. The best it can do in return is +2 Iron Head which will do 52.48 - 61.93%
Flash Cannon from Quiet Aegislash does 39.71 - 46.8%. Foul Play murders Aegislash in attack stance (sword stance?), even with a 0 Atk IV and a hindering nature.
Of course, offensive counters are more likely to fit on a variety of teams, but there it is for what it's worth. I could say it worked decently well on ladder but....well, it's ladder. This isn't going to work for most teams, as it lets a few pretty dangerous threats get in for free (like Heatran and Azumarill). In terms of countering Aegislash, though, Mandibuzz is your bird.
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When fighting Xernes, after using Geomency Gryoball is a 1hko, I don't know how well Iron head does.
For this set would could Mild work or is the defense drop from it not worth running?
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SAtk / 140 Atk / 116 Spd
Quiet Nature
- Autotomize
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Hidden Power Ice / Shadow Claw
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SAtk / 140 Atk / 116 Spd
Quiet Nature
- Autotomize
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Hidden Power Ice / Shadow Claw
I've enjoyed using sub on a pivot set to ease prediction and beat other Aegislash most of the time with zero prediction. Not sure why I never see it myself; it seems to work decently for me.
The set I'm using:
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Atk
IVs: 0 Spd
Quiet Nature
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
Running sub + shadow ball lets you beat SD Aegislash 100% of the time unless your opponent is running shadow claw and also loses the speed tie that breaks your sub. Good thing the most common set runs sneak + sword + king's shield, the latter giving you a free sub if they're dumb enough to go for it while you have no boosts. This set is extremely reliable in the sense that you don't have to predict, and Aegislash is sobroken powerful that hardly anything can set up on it if you're willing to risk losing Aegislash to prevent getting swept. Even if something can set up on my Aegislash, it's likely not going to have enough health to deal with the priority on my team (Azumarill and Talonflame). Aegislash forces so many switches that getting a free sub up is often pretty easy. Sure you're usually forced to switch out after your sub is broken, but at least you always get the right hit off before you do.
The set I'm using:
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Atk
IVs: 0 Spd
Quiet Nature
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
Running sub + shadow ball lets you beat SD Aegislash 100% of the time unless your opponent is running shadow claw and also loses the speed tie that breaks your sub. Good thing the most common set runs sneak + sword + king's shield, the latter giving you a free sub if they're dumb enough to go for it while you have no boosts. This set is extremely reliable in the sense that you don't have to predict, and Aegislash is so
What makes Aegislash threatening is that it has base 150 in both attacking stats, enough of a movepool to get fantastic coverage, and the ability to switch in. Anything else is just a bonus.
well its not just its offensive function that makes aegislash threatening , is the fact that it can behave as 150 stat defense pokemon and a 150 attack offense pokemon at the same turn (given it moves second) not only that its also capable of beat almost every physical contact attacker like azumarill or scizor in one to one situations,
How would a bulky spread work out? Something along the lines of
Aegislash@Lefties
Brave/Quiet
252 HP Working out Defense investment atm
~HP Ice
~King's Shield
~Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword
~Iron Head/Sacred Sword
w/o investment both attack stats are 305 in Blade form, which gets a clean 2HKO on Garchomp when rocks are up. Sacred Sword is a guaranteed OHKO on T-tar, who otherwise threatens me with EQ. I'm leaning towards keeping Shadow Claw as the better STAB option b/c Iron head only hits fairies for SE damage and while this is my partner for Kyurem-B I feel overall Sacred Swords is the more worthwhile opption.
Aegislash@Lefties
Brave/Quiet
252 HP Working out Defense investment atm
~HP Ice
~King's Shield
~Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword
~Iron Head/Sacred Sword
w/o investment both attack stats are 305 in Blade form, which gets a clean 2HKO on Garchomp when rocks are up. Sacred Sword is a guaranteed OHKO on T-tar, who otherwise threatens me with EQ. I'm leaning towards keeping Shadow Claw as the better STAB option b/c Iron head only hits fairies for SE damage and while this is my partner for Kyurem-B I feel overall Sacred Swords is the more worthwhile opption.
Brave Aegislash holding Power Weight (or any of the items that halves speed) can use Gyro Ball well enough. It hits 150 base power at around the 252 speed + natured base 100s. This is enough power to OHKO Garchomp after Stealth Rocks at +0. You lose the use of Leftovers but gain a significantly more powerful attack. Probably wouldn't be a main option but it certainly rips a hole in anything it hits neutral.
Life Orb + Automotize isn't bad, but it requires you to either pack King's Shield or switch out at the first sign of a Choice Scarfer, because anything that outspeeds you (it's not that hard to outspeed +2 Jolly/Timid Aegislash, honestly) is going to obliterate you. Considering how susceptible Aegislash is to Pursuit trapping, too, I really don't think it's a good idea to rely on outspeeding your opponents (without King's Shield support, anyways.)
Aegislash might have good bulk, but he can be very easily whittled down if you try to Automotize every time you switch him in.
Aegislash might have good bulk, but he can be very easily whittled down if you try to Automotize every time you switch him in.
Both sets have their merits and its precisely the roles Aegislash can play that makes each set that hard to counter. King's Shield does have the benefit of murdering Pursuit trappers, but when you boil down to it, the main ones that come to mind are CB Scizor and Tyranitar (most likely Scarf)
Aegislash outspeeds Scarf Ttar attempting to pursuit.
12- Atk Life Orb (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (118.71 - 139.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Seriously, evena Modest nature wrecks the big bad Ttar.
CB Scizor
252+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 247-292 (72.01 - 85.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's too bad that you need quite a few hazards to guarantee this kill, but Aegislash w/LO pretty much renders him unusable. To be fair, Scizor might as well Bullet Punch to take 50% of his health right then and there (but i did acknowledge priority wrecks this set). Since it's main job is to basically gain momentum, it's fair to say that this set kicks as much *** as the SD set.
As it's been said, the SD set loses to quite a few more things than this one, so it's a bit more reliant on the other five members of the team. I acknowledge the fact that it can function as a great cleaner once their obvious counters are removed; this thing is so easily splashable most people will spend their resources trying to take it out (I mean a team can function regardless whether this guy lives or dies...but he just adds to the pile of bodies your opponent is trying to prevent). Other than that, I've tried both sets with a huge amount of success on both parts; I prefer the LO set due to its sheer amount of power...I like the SD set as it capitalizes on Stance Change's merits beautifully.
You still outspeed scarfers upwards of base 95, which puts you ahead of a good number of the scarfers in the meta.
I've also seen King's Shield attempted to be run on Autotomize, it's garbage. You just get killed by whatever coverage you lost and by setting up the autoto you've taken enough damage to be killed by Scarf'd Flamethrowers, Earthquakes, or whatever. Never, ever run King's Shield on autotomize, prioritize removing fast scarfers first, THEN sweep.
Something to note is that Aeglslash's pre-evo is not too shabby either. It has a respectable base 110 attack and 150 defense that can get boosted with eviolite and sticks around after you attack. If you're not also abusing one of:
1) Aegislash's higher special stats (50/150 vs 45/49)
2) Aegislash's higher base speed (60 vs 35)
3) King's shield
then you might want to consider Doublade instead. In my opinion, the most popular Aegislash sets will be those that fit those criteria. I believe that the sets like the mixed sets will end up being the most successful.
1) Aegislash's higher special stats (50/150 vs 45/49)
2) Aegislash's higher base speed (60 vs 35)
3) King's shield
then you might want to consider Doublade instead. In my opinion, the most popular Aegislash sets will be those that fit those criteria. I believe that the sets like the mixed sets will end up being the most successful.
One way of dealing with aegislash is taunt. Stops kings shield and swords dance.
It'll have be a weak priority glass cannon. The question is whether the taunter can take advantage of the few turns that its taunted. Even if it can't though, the aegislash will definitely be forced out or risk being set up on.
Also question, how does move order affect aegislash? I know he changes forms before he attacks (so he attacks with his attack form stats), but lets say I have an absol vs aegislash.
If I sucker punch him while he shadow sneaks (Sucker punch moves first because same priority and absol has higher speed I believe), will he change forms at the start of the turn like a mega evolution or will he change before he attacks but after I land the hit?
It'll have be a weak priority glass cannon. The question is whether the taunter can take advantage of the few turns that its taunted. Even if it can't though, the aegislash will definitely be forced out or risk being set up on.
Also question, how does move order affect aegislash? I know he changes forms before he attacks (so he attacks with his attack form stats), but lets say I have an absol vs aegislash.
If I sucker punch him while he shadow sneaks (Sucker punch moves first because same priority and absol has higher speed I believe), will he change forms at the start of the turn like a mega evolution or will he change before he attacks but after I land the hit?
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He changes mode right before he attacks, so it'll be after you land the hit.
Just a question about Aegislash, can Aegislash's ability be changed/nulled?
I was thinking Cofagrigus and Pursuit user (ie T-tar) would make a ok check/counter.
Cofagrigus could come in and threaten with a slow shadow ball and might survive a shadow sneak with it's 58/145 physical defenses. If it happens to be KO-ed it would change Aegislash's ability to Mummy, unable to change it's stance with King's shield. A pursuit user could come in and Check mate it.
I was thinking Cofagrigus and Pursuit user (ie T-tar) would make a ok check/counter.
Cofagrigus could come in and threaten with a slow shadow ball and might survive a shadow sneak with it's 58/145 physical defenses. If it happens to be KO-ed it would change Aegislash's ability to Mummy, unable to change it's stance with King's shield. A pursuit user could come in and Check mate it.
By far the easiest way I've found to deal with Aegislash is with Foul Play. Since it uses Aegislash's Attack, King's Shield won't weaken Foul Play in any way, and can do severe damage to +2 Aegislash in Shield Stance and straight up OHKO it in Blade Stance regardless of boosts.
That said, few Pokemon actually get Foul Play without being transferred from the Pokebank, but the best candidates would be Sableye and Klefki. Sableye is totally immune to Sacred Sword and can shrug off Shadow Sneak, and can even bypass King's Shield with Will-o-Wisp or Taunt to prevent said move, all while packing STAB Foul Play. However, Sableye is slower than Aegislash, and may have to worry about a powerful Shadow Ball before going in for the kill. Klefki is faster than Aegislash and can take Shadow Sneak, so if Aegislash doesn't switch back to Shield Stance it faces a swift death, the tradeoff being that its Foul Play isn't STAB.
That said, few Pokemon actually get Foul Play without being transferred from the Pokebank, but the best candidates would be Sableye and Klefki. Sableye is totally immune to Sacred Sword and can shrug off Shadow Sneak, and can even bypass King's Shield with Will-o-Wisp or Taunt to prevent said move, all while packing STAB Foul Play. However, Sableye is slower than Aegislash, and may have to worry about a powerful Shadow Ball before going in for the kill. Klefki is faster than Aegislash and can take Shadow Sneak, so if Aegislash doesn't switch back to Shield Stance it faces a swift death, the tradeoff being that its Foul Play isn't STAB.
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Thing is, if Mega-Blaziken switches into Swords Dance, it still has to play the prediction game. Flare Blitz will easily OHKO Aegislash but is countered by King's Shield; Flamethrower can bypass King's Shield but an uninvested Flamethrower won't KO Shield Stance Aegi (Mild LO Hydreigon's Dark Pulse cannot OHKO max HP Aegislash!). If Aegi does not use King's Shield on the Flamethrower, +2 Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak KOes Blaziken in quick succession. You might as well use Swords Dance if you want to play the prediction game.
Swords Dance / 3 Attacks is useful if you're willing to take a strike from the opponent and hit them back hard. For example, you may not know if the opponent's Tank is a Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Togekiss, or whatever. Or maybe, they'll decide to switch in a "check" against you, like TTar (who'll resist Shadow Ball / Shadow Sneak / Shadow Claw). So instead, you use Swords Dance and hope that the opponent switches in a pokemon that Aegislash Shield Forme can survive 1 hit from. Swords Dance + True attack probably will hurt the opponent more, and leaves you in safer shield form for the switched-in attack.
Case 1
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Turn 1: You know the opponent will switch out for some reason. Aegislash uses Sacred Sword, predicting a TTar Switchin.
Opponent actually switches in Togekiss. Togekiss does LOL on the Sacred Sword. If you chose Iron Head, then assume the opponent switched in Ferrothorn instead. Its not like you actually know what the opponent's wall is yet.
Turn 2: You're in Sword Forme, and are forced to switch out. (Shadow Ball Togekiss wins in Sword Forme, and Sacred Sword + Iron Head isn't enough to win vs Togekiss)
Case 2
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Turn 1: Same situation, but you now "know you don't know" what the opponent will switch in. You stay in Shield Forme and just Swords Dance.
Turn 2: Now you know your opponent's switch in. +2 Iron Head OHKOs Togekiss. +2 Sacred Sword OHKOs Ferrothorn or TTar. If you discovered your opponent's Hippowdon, Hydregeon, or other pokemon that wins... you switch out.
Basically, use the Swords Dance as a crutch. Why rely on prediction, when you can just "save up this turn's attack" for "next turn". Bonus points because you remain in Shield Forme while Swords Dancing.
Of course, this only works when Aegislash has high HP. And the strategy is still beaten if the opponent plays an aggressive switch-in like Heatran. But if you feel like you can predict "some sort of wall" coming in, and you need that perfect prediction for 2HKO... why not just swords dance on the turn while the opponent switches out?
There's no need to get to +6. One turn of Swords Dance is still quite useful. Relying on +6 shennanigans will get you utterly owned if your opponent is anywhere close to half-decent.
alexwolf EDIT: Removed the quoted part as this post has been removed.
Case 1
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Turn 1: You know the opponent will switch out for some reason. Aegislash uses Sacred Sword, predicting a TTar Switchin.
Opponent actually switches in Togekiss. Togekiss does LOL on the Sacred Sword. If you chose Iron Head, then assume the opponent switched in Ferrothorn instead. Its not like you actually know what the opponent's wall is yet.
Turn 2: You're in Sword Forme, and are forced to switch out. (Shadow Ball Togekiss wins in Sword Forme, and Sacred Sword + Iron Head isn't enough to win vs Togekiss)
Case 2
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Turn 1: Same situation, but you now "know you don't know" what the opponent will switch in. You stay in Shield Forme and just Swords Dance.
Turn 2: Now you know your opponent's switch in. +2 Iron Head OHKOs Togekiss. +2 Sacred Sword OHKOs Ferrothorn or TTar. If you discovered your opponent's Hippowdon, Hydregeon, or other pokemon that wins... you switch out.
Basically, use the Swords Dance as a crutch. Why rely on prediction, when you can just "save up this turn's attack" for "next turn". Bonus points because you remain in Shield Forme while Swords Dancing.
Of course, this only works when Aegislash has high HP. And the strategy is still beaten if the opponent plays an aggressive switch-in like Heatran. But if you feel like you can predict "some sort of wall" coming in, and you need that perfect prediction for 2HKO... why not just swords dance on the turn while the opponent switches out?
There's no need to get to +6. One turn of Swords Dance is still quite useful. Relying on +6 shennanigans will get you utterly owned if your opponent is anywhere close to half-decent.
alexwolf EDIT: Removed the quoted part as this post has been removed.
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