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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Emperor, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Jun 10, 2008
    I like Psychic/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Fire/Focus Blast!
  2. doughboy

    doughboy backhand slap ready
    is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 4, 2011
    I've think I've fallen in love with LO+Substitute Zam. It screws with offensive teams so much, once you get a free Sub its pretty much gg. Being able to outspeed Latios, Terrakion, and Starmie is pretty huge. Once you whittle them down (not necessary with Starmie), they all get OHKO'ed.

    TBH I have found Life Orb the item of choice on Zam, the power difference is really significant, you lose out on a bunch of OHKO's/2HKO's with Focus Sash. IMO, the most important being losing out on the OHKO on Terrakion in Sand with 2 SR/1 spikes switch in. It does miss out on being a 100% revenge kill with sash, but it can't hit hard enough to be used outside of revenge killing.

    Edit: Zam outspeeds Dragonite after a Dragon Dance o.o
  3. tehy

    tehy Banned deucer.

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well of course you lose a lot of power. The point is to be a revenge-killer once without having a scarf, and you can afford to 2hitko certain pokes because you survive a hit.
  4. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2010
    I know I've been out of the loop for a few months, but I just had a brainwave I had to share.

    What do people think of Future Sight on Alakazam?

    Hang on there don't disregard it yet! Allow me to explain... by talking about Doom Desire and Jirachi.

    I'm sure some of you remember when there was a fair bit of talk speculating about the usefulness of Doom Desire on Choice Specs Jirachi. While initially the mechanics of the move seem incredibly undesirable (it doesn't do anything until two turns later and your opponent KNOWS its coming), it presented some interesting possibilities when thought on more. The biggest idea was that it could force a "no win" situation for an opponent if played properly; After Doom Desire is used the user can switch to a new Pokemon that is checked by Pokemon that Doom Desire destroys. If the opponent dares to switch in their check, they'll lose a Pokemon to doom desire. If they don't though, that Pokemon gets a free turn.

    Ultimately though the idea proved mostly impractical, due to three things: Too few Pokemon were threatened by Doom Desire, making trapping difficult,the sheer loss in opportunity cost of using a Choice Specs Jirachi when it has MUCH better things to be doing, and the fact that Choice Specs were necessary to get the damage output needed but otherwise pair horribly with Doom Desire's mechanics.

    Which is where Future Sight and Alakazam come in. While Future Sight's Psychic typing isn't great, it is better than the Steel type Doom Desire. And unlike Jirachi, Alakazam always has a move slot to spare. The only moves Alakazam NEEDS are Psychic/Psyshock, Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. The fourth move has always been of far, far less importance and served a niche role. Well, here's a new niche role Alakazam can fill with that 4th move. And unlike Jirachi, it doesn't even need Choice Specs to pull it off due to its higher special attack and the better typing of Future Sight.

    What Future sight does for Alakazam is that it gives it something useful to do on those turns when you KNOW an opponent is going to switch but you can't be sure what they're going to switch to. Rather than take a blind guess, you can throw up a future sight. From there you can play to "trap" the opponent. This doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get your opponent to send in a Pokemon that is OHKO'd by Future Sight; honestly there aren't a lot of those. However the extra damage caused by future sight can turn what is usually a solid check to a Pokemon on your team into a victim, since it does damage in ADDITION to whatever other attack you called that turn.

    For example, say you get in your Alakazam on an opponent's Conkeldurr. You know they're going to switch out, but you don't know if they'll go to their Blissey or their Scizor. So you use Future Sight, and your opponent sends out their Blissey. You can then switch to your Double Dance Terrakion as Blissey does whatever. Your opponent is now in a pickle, because if they keep in Blissey you'll easily KO it, but if they switch to their Scizor the extra 38%-44% Future Sight will do will allow Scizor to be KO'd by Close Combat after it switches in. Indeed, Scizor is something of a best case scenario for them, resisting Future Sight; almost anything they switch in is sure to be destroyed by the combined might of two powerful attacks on the same turn. It's even better if you have SR or Spikes on the field, since that turns possible KOs into Guaranteed ones.

    This could be avoided by your opponent by switching out Blissey in a blind double switch, but doing so against Alakazam is risky as hell since NOTHING likes switching into the right attack of Alakazam's. In short, it gives you a massive strategic edge that can allow you punch holes in your opponents team. Oh, and I know people will point out the fact that Dark types are immune to Future Sight as a flaw, but the only common Dark type in OU is Tyranitar who is destroyed by fighting moves, meaning it'll have a hard time switching in to whatever Pokemon you have out when Future Sight is ready to hit.


    Future Sight works on Alakazam by threatening massive damage from two different attacks on the same turn. While the opponent can switch in a resist to the move, the added damage can still allow you to punch holes in the opponent's team, or force them into un-winnable situations.. Unlike Jirachi, Alakazam can afford the moveslot and use a less restricting item, making it able to perform its normal role as well.

    So now, I'll just wait for people to tell me what I've missed, since I'm sure I've missed something.
  5. Lork


    Dec 22, 2010
    i used future sight like that and you're right in that it forces the opposition's hand considerably. have you tried it on alakazam tho or are you just theorymonning?
  6. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 24, 2010
    Honestly, just theorymonning. I haven't laddered in months and don't have a current team I can just slap this on to test. Not to mention the idea hit around midnight and I'm utterly useless past 11 pm at battling.

    Rather I was hoping the idea might inspire some other people to give it a try and I could just observe the results. I don't honestly really want to get back into competitive battling right now but I always thought the idea of Doom Desire was cool and when I realized that this was a likely much more effective version of it I just really wanted to know if it would actually work or not. Basically I just want to observe these days rather than participate myself.

    So, anyone else tried it? I'd love to see some logs if anyone has any. I've always wanted to see a delayed hit strategy in use!
  7. A Fhaol Bhig

    A Fhaol Bhig

    Jan 4, 2011
    I'm not hugely experienced at this game but I can vouch for it's effectiveness when used correctly. The main thing is that many people go "lol" and switch to Tyrannitar for example. Which is good and all...except if you've switched in a fighting type, or you alakazam has Focus Blast, etc.

    It also helps to turn many 2HKO's into OHKO's.

    It's still a niche thing. But it does work.
  8. Siggu


    Sep 22, 2010
    Future Sight looks like a nice momentum grabbing move, as the mere possibility of being hit by a 120 BP move used by a pokémon with 135 SpA can 'force' the opponent into switching in the pokémon you want him to... or not
  9. The Great Gastly

    The Great Gastly

    Jul 12, 2012
    I tried out Future Sight on the SashZam in my offensive team, and while it came in handy numerous times for piling on more damage, I always felt like I missed the coverage of HP Ice or the unexpectedness T-Wave... it sometimes came in handy for forcing checkmates and switches, but it feels very difficult to fully take advantage of.

    Speaking of SashZam -- what do people usually use in the last slot? I usually use HP Ice or T-Wave, but I'm wondering if anyone uses anything different?
  10. Hugin


    Sep 30, 2012
    You can use Knock Off on the switch. It's not the best use of Zam, but it's viable if you already have a bunch of Fire and Ice on your team.
  11. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed Please leave.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 12, 2009
    I usually find Shadow Ball unnecessary when I'm using a Psychic-type counter or Hidden Power Ice on Alakazam, so my usual Focus Sash Alakazam fares like this: Psychic / Psyshock | Focus Blast | Hidden Power Ice | Thunder Wave.

    Thunder Wave is a very annoying an unexpected option coming from Alakazam, and Focus Sash pretty much allows it two free chances to either KO or paralyze something before going down. In dire situations such as when you're looking at a +3-6 Latias and your Jirachi is too severely weakened to paralyze it, or if Volcarona's getting you down, a simple wave of paralysis will do the trick. Try it out.
  12. flea


    Oct 19, 2012
    I've used alakazam on a few of my HO teams of middling success, and the LO Sub set is pretty much guaranteed to net a few kills or a sweep against any HO player who's stupid enough to let him get a sub up.

    However, I think the most difficult thing is actually getting that sub and keeping it against players who know what they're doing. 95% of the time when you're facing a zam, it's the right play to just stay in and attack just in case the zam subs, because if it doesn't have a sub or a sash it's pretty much a sitting duck for any of the fast, powerful scarfers in today's meta. It's just not worth the risk of switching out just in case it subs.

    Both sash and LO+sub have their merits, but I generally found sash to be useful in a much greater variety of battle scenarios. The sash set works as a great "last resort" revenge killer while still being able to clean up late-game pretty well

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