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Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Laxpras, Nov 26, 2016.
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Darmanitan @ Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Fire Punch
Banded Chlorophyll Darmanitan in the sun is just ridiculously powerful. It outspeeds virtually everything with Chlorophyll, and Flare Blitz OHKOs a majority of the meta and significantly dents everything else. Unfortunately, Flare Blitz wears down Darmanitan very quickly, so it often only gets 3-4 chances to use it. Fire Punch is a weaker, no-recoil alternative if Darmanitan is sent in without much health left. Earthquake is its best option to hit Flash Fire mons like Scizor. Darmanitan appreciates a sun setter with Heat Rock so that it can get the most out of its increased firepower (heh). I've found Infernape to be a valuable Drought setter because it has access to U-turn, but there may be better options. Psychic Surge is also useful as it blocks Darmanitan from priority moves like Fake Out during its sweep. Darmanitan could afford to run less Speed in favor of some HP investment to reduce the recoil damage it takes from Flare Blitz. Some calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 678-798 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black in Sun: 511-603 (130.6 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golisopod in Sun: 382-451 (108.2 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primarina in Sun: 327-385 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite in Sun: 266-313 (82.3 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp in Sun: 266-313 (74.5 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 190-224 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>giga drain over solar beam
>on a desolate land set
Actually talking about chlorophyll, victini runs that banded set better IMO. V-Create hits harder(Achieves KOes like dragonite) and doesn't suffer from recoil also it gets solid coverage in Bolt Strike allowing to get around bulky waters and flash fire skarmory and even zen headbutt to get around flash fire buzzwole and volt absorb toxapex while being faster than darmanitan.
Drops are unfortunate but due to speed boost under Sun, it can even afford those drops to some extent.
I believe Vulcanora gets Synthesis. Or morning sun, or whatever. 3/4HP in sun!
I would love to see more Giga Drain love with triage or something...
Maybe next gen. After an overdue buff. :/
Innards Out isn't OP IMO. In fact, I find it a crutial means of balancing Hyper Offense in a post-Ultra Beast meta.
Its pretty predictible which pokemon are going to use it- I've only ever seen it on Chancey, Blissey, Wailord and Guzzlord. (and one very weird rhyperior) Most pokemon, even with worthwhile HP stats are effectively inelligible due to naturally high Defenses- if a pokemon only mostly KOs an Innards Out pokemon, the whole ability is kinda ineffective.
Is it annoying? Yes- seeing your beautiful sweep killed in a suicide switch-in sucks. But Gen 7 is already proving to be very fast paced, all about getting that one good sweep set up. Innards Out counters this by stopping sweeps without giving your opponent any tangible advantage- you're both down a pokemon, but if you were already able to OHKO a blissey, you probably were at least one-for-one with said pokemon already.
Furthermore, this OM is all about using abilities to their full advantage. A pokemon with Innards Out is going to have any other, more useable-while-not-KOd, abilities, as well as have half their EVs invested in HP. They also basically cannot have any def/spDef investment so as to get the full use of their ability, so you baaically have a squishy tank with attack investment. In a metagame with Tough Claws/Prankster/Poison Heal users...
Its a nerfed pokemon that can end a sweep by dying. A Focus Sash Ize/Ate explosion could probably do the same thing better in the hands of a skilled player.
Innards Out boils down to a 1 for 1 trade or forced switch into something that will take multiple hits to KO it. Meanwhile, the user is punished with a poor EV spread and an ability that isn't useful until it dies.
I don't see that being OP in this meta. I could see some arguing that its maybe a low-skill, newbie tactic, ( Innards Bliss is on my team I should know) but perish trap is also around in this meta and doesn't nerf the user.
recovery is kinda nice bro. volc doesn't have lefties or roost on this set so giga drain makes setting up on primarina and tapu fini easier. it also lets volc deal with primordial sea users.
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I'm gonna vote ban for lots of reasons already mentioned here, but there's some seriously op stuff that immediately needs to be looked at after Fluffy leaves the meta. Hoopa-U, Kyurem-B, and Protean are all stupidly broken and without Fluffy they become even harder to wall. I was laddering with stall and I was lucky not to face them many times because even with Fluffy they can just completely destroy defensive cores with very little effort or creativity involved.
You know you beat a pretty bad team of mine with that, yes? Also, my teams are all horribly, horribly weak to Volcarona, so that's not too big of an accomplishment. You should also really run Bug Buzz over Hidden Power Ground. (Also Dragonite has no issue bopping this; run Dazzling if you want to smash it around) Volcarona is pretty solid as a sweeper, though. Give it an inch, and it takes a few miles.
Anyways... the link to my requirements is above. Made it as AAA Dragon.
I vote BAN on Fluffy. As I mentioned before, Buzzwole can take physical attacks that are not Flying or Fire from pretty much everything in the entire tier. The mere fact that it can become such a large blanket check is too stupid to keep around. and I pity the fool that voted it was okay in the OM room poll
Some more stupid Fluffy facts:
- Primordial Sea Swampert doesn't even do 20% with a Waterfall unless it's Adamant AND fully invested.
- You know the Physical Tapu Kokos running around? The ones that should beat Skarmory for sure? A Wild Charge does 37%, not even a 2HKO, thanks to Fluffy. I have replay proof of this, if you all need it.
- Magearna is a common sight with a Fluffy wall, and guess what? It resists Stone Edge, the other major move that bypasses it. Have fun with those 50/50s!
- Shed Shell exists, in case you think you can trap those Fluffy Steel types.
Needless to say, Fur Coat is dumb, and even a somewhat nerfed version is way too much for everything to bear.
....Also, I'd like to inform you all that this was not the real rant that I am preparing for. THAT will be coming shortly. Signing off!
Could Fluffy Eviolite Chansey work?
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So normally I despise posts like these where people randomly ask a council to step in on something, but I think AAA right now is the exact time where you should strongly consider getting together whatever council is left and start dealing with the metagame. There's a major tour coming up soon, interest is falling, and I don't believe another suspect will be allowed for a while which is a problem, since the meta is just ridiculous. Btw thanks LaxLapras for giving teams because I didn't want to build for this hell. There's a serious issue when pretty much every non-HO team has to run some kind of regenvest mon to deal with all the stupid attackers because praying your blanket checks match up well is the best you can do. Aerilate, Fluffy, Kyube, Megazam, Stakeout fucking Latios, there's some seriously stupid stuff here as many of the previous voting posts can attest to. I know that the big idea was to unban a lot of stuff and see how it goes, but the suspect process is very long and 2 weeks in between opens isn't going to push off AAA long enough. If there was ever a time for adopting the Koko system for the council to step in and get shit banned and then look back and think about unbanning stuff later, it's here. I believe this meta was a lot of fun last gen and can still be really cool but good god this is aids.
So yeah I'm voting Ban on Fluffy, I don't think it's the most broken thing around but it's clearly not healthy even if it'll make things like Kyube even worse
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Finally got reqs (screws Stall btw) I bascually am in consensus with everyone else, Fluffy is broken alongside other threats such as Kyurem-B, Protean, and Kartana and should be banned to help the meta stabilize better.
So I just started playing this metagame as I got pretty bored with the playstyle of OU, and lower tiers are still pretty volatile at the moment, and I have to say, it is quite possibly the most fun I've had in a long time with Pokemon. There's some obviously broken / annoying as hell stuff like Pixilate Koko, Triage abusers, Aerilate Dnite, etc. but overall I still find that there's a lot of room for creativity. One of my favorite sets to use is Electrium-Z Protean Dragon Dance Latios. It may sound weird at first but I've found it to be marvelously effective. It gets past bulky Waters, Skarmory, and Celesteela with Z-Thunder, I have Ice Beam for opposing Dragon-types and BoltBeam coverage, and Earthquake, which, when combined with the Protean boost can 2HKO Magearna and OHKO Magnezone even without any investment or a Dragon Dance boost. Dragon Dance allowed Latios to get the drop on scarfers that would normally outspeed it. I've also found Flash Fire Ferrothorn to be hilarious, as it can wall entire teams once Fighting-types are removed. Anyways, after playing a lot of this tier over the past few days I eventually ended up getting voting reqs.
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I don't know if it's just my luck, but I've seen maybe one or two Fluffy users, neither of which were particularly effective. I personally don't think it warrants a ban when stupid stuff like the -ate ability abusers exist.
Do Not Ban
Can someone color in my TC now pretty plz
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I would like to say this suspect was my first experience ever playing in the aaa tier, and I must admit I'll definitely be playing more from now on. I'd also like to thank darksylvion, without taking a team of yours from the bazaar I wouldn't have gotten reqs (I did make a few changes tho). With that being said I really don't have much experience with fluffy, however, I saw a magnezone eat my Terrakions adaptability Close Combat, and it cost me a game - so out of spite of that I have to vote BAN
Honestly, while Fluffy itself isn't broken in a traditional sense, it does promote unhealthy teambuilding. It is among many other things that should also be looked at, because the meta right now is in a state where it promotes lazy decision making and rewards bad players somewhat consistently(in ladder long run, most of the the good players eventually get rewarded, but) in a tournament setting where every match is important- having such a volatile metagame that can reward the worse player is very unappealing. I'm voting BAN
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Gonna have to vote ban here. Its pretty insane how throwing fluffy on any bulky mon lets it invalidate most physical mons in the game. I think balance teams are the best abusers of this rather than stall, being able to throw a fluffy zapdos or mandibuzz on your team and volt switch/u-turn out and gain momentum on so much shit is amazing. I think we all know how crazy the defense is, but just some examples:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Zapdos: 126-149 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Mandibuzz: 79-94 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Some of the strongest attackers in the game do jack shit damage. banhammer for a fur coat clone is well justified.
Some other thoughts on mons I've been using:
Magearna is a god. RegenVest is amazing, excellent bulk with a nuke in fleur cannon on par with latios's draco meteor. Literally the best dual typing in the game allows it to switch into so many things, and then it can use a slow volt switch to gain momentum at literally no cost because it regens back the HP. This one set alone is probably worth S rank, I haven't even tried a shift gear boosting set which has some nice possibilities like tinted lens with fairium-z. The aegislash of gen 7, basically no downside to running this and it fits on HO, balance, hard stall, even niche styles like trick room and rain.
New surge abilities are awesome, in particular psychic surge. A 50% boost is strong by itself for psychic types, but invalidating priority moves is such amazing team support. Latios the mamoswine check lmao
Grassy surge ferrothorn along with leftovers acts like pseudo poison heal, and in combination with leech seed ferro just doesn't die. As a bonus palpatine himself would approve of power whip's 50% power boost. I still prefer flash fire but if you have some solid fire resists this is a hilariously fun set.
Poison heal boosting zygarde was already a massive threat, now it can run mono-attacking with only 2 pretty rare resistances, as most grass and bug types also have secondary steel or poison types. Can totally also run a sub toxic set like gliscor from like 3 years ago with a stab that bodies anyone who can avoid poison. Might have to be looked at later.
Nice new bulkier tentacruel alternative for stall, although no rapid spin. What do you guys run on this? I personally ran unaware but I'm sure there's better sets out there
In terms of broken shit, aerilate is still borked like last gen. Dragonite, landorus-t and noivern all still do exactly the same as they did before, they need a ban. The first two are kinda held in check by fluffy but I don't want a broken checking broken situation, hopefully banning fluffy will prompt these getting banned afterwards.
Also stakeout might have to be looked at later. Not only does it shit on stall when used on something like choice band tyranitar, OHKOing skarmory for example, it gives pokemon the ability to completely destroy your own soft counters. This is totally nuts, completely and utterly insane. Especially for fast pokemon with mixed coverage like thunderus, keldeo, or latios, you just can't switch into them at all. I guess we will see how the meta settles but I don't know how long these will last.
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A lot of firsts for me. The first time I've participate in a suspect test, the first time I played AAA, and the first time I've made a post. Anyways, I decided to make a stall team to get a feel for how broken Fluffy was and... unsurprisingly, its way too broken. A lot of people were unprepared for stall and were unable to handle it. Fluffy is a big contributor to this, as it essentially gives a Pokemon Fur Coat for an added fire weakness... great for mons that already die in a couple of hits to a fire move such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Celesteela etc. You are basically doubling their defence for nothin, in essence giving them Fur Coat. I had a lot of success with Fluffy Avalugg, which was even able to take some physical fire moves such as a Flare Blitz from A-Marowak.
The best way I found to stop these Fluffy mons was either to surprise them with a special fire move, which you can usually see coming and switch out, or use a special stall breaker. The Z-Hyponsis Xurkitree set had some success doing this, but after a while I was able to predict them going for the Z-Hypnosis and switch into a Magic Bounce mon to shut them down. Fluffy is also very splashable and hard to predict as to which mon will be using it. Due to the benefit with very little downside, the unpreparedness of teams to combat it, and the splashable and unpredictability of it, I vote to Ban Fluffy.
COIL (Move your mouse to reveal the content)
I really like the positive and negative sides of Fluffy. I honestly think this ability isnt broken because you can exploid it much better than other abilites(I already showed some ways to counter fluffy users in a previous post). I would enjoy it if GF gives us more of these double edged abilites...
Therefore I vote DO NOT BAN
COIL (Move your mouse to reveal the content)
Fluffy, an ability that almost as a same as Fur Coat, while this ability give fire weakness, that almost nothing become a problem, as you can see the fire weakness can be covered with other team mates. this give an easier time for building team for stall, since it like almost giving so many random pokemon something a "resistance" which halved almost any the physical attack. i tried before with mew and chesnaught (over buzzwole because worry seed, their resistance is almost a same anyway). it's ridiculous to see an pixilate return tapu koko almost doing nothing to ches and buzz, which means stall can compress their job to 1 or 2 pokemon. bringing every other mons a random *not so viable moves like Tapu Koko having Hidden Power Fire just to kill a buzz/ches/skarm whatever with fluffy is just silly (yeah as Zephyr said), not even Wild Charge / Galvanize return or (Pixilate return in case of buzz/ches) can 2hko. this is not the same with giving your skarmory a volt absorb, if skarm given a volt absorb, atleast we can still doing much damage to skarm with a strong neutral move like close combat, but with fluffy, that skarmory is impossible to kill ! not counting that you need a time to understand who is going fluffy, which make you lose so much momentum.
yeah other point already covered by others, so i vote BAN
Can I just say one thing about the fluffy ability?
That is all.
ill be voting to ban fluffy because its obviously broken along with a bunch of other shit. while i get the point of public suspects and why they are helpful i strongly disagree with doing it for the next few suspects. there is a ton of broken shit running around and doing 2 week suspects for each one will just promote a broken and "unfun" metagame (even though thats not a valid reason its still a good point to bring up). for the next few either do council voting which i think should have been done for this, or do multiple suspects at once for each 2 week period (kyube / weavile / protean / -ates / etc) just to name a few that were annoying during laddering are all obviously broken and should be dealt with before the open starts. i think just doing mass bans for the next few potentially broken mons then maybe trying them out again on their own in a few months should be the way to go. sorry for the rant but i feel that handling suspects publicly when there are a lot more than 1 offending member should be a last case scenario which i feel should not have been applied here.
here are some teams i put together if anyone wants to try them out bc i dont have any use for them with the suspect being over
fun ho i made similar to the team i used last aaa open. basically get up rocks then start breaking through shit with zam / thund / hoopa and clean up with luc and gar. bit weak to slush rush mons but most offense will be. tinted lens hoopa is fun as fuck and kind of a necessity because the rest of the team has problems dealing with fatter shit like magearna.
more of a balanced build around ph fini bc it seemed fun to use. unaware zap turned out to be the mvp of this team because it just deals with a ton of shit in the meta like kartana / nite and other scary set up mons. av mag because i feel is a necessity on these kinds of teams atm due to how much utility you pack into one slot (check to refridgerate mons like cb kyube / check to aerialters) etc. sd devastating drake chomp is one of the best balance breakers atm bc just being able to nuke something with 380bp dragon move after stab will almost always net you a kill. zam + luc have a cool backbone that might seem counter productive but it rarely ever came into play in my games.
Reminder that there's one day left for the suspect test.
Also, I'd like to let you know that the council is currently voting on quickbans. Expect the first batch of bans as soon as this test ends.
I'm guessing this team isn't supposed to have Steafast Lucario.
According to the votes, fluffy will be banned in AAA,so why is fur coat still allowed in inheritance?
Completely separate metagames. Maybe you should broach the topic of Fluffy in the Inheritance thread if you think it's unhealthy there.
In addition, the stuff with Fur Coat and Fluffy have bad defensive movepools in general. Compare this to here, where you can recover freely while being Fluffy. It's easy to see why there were many votes for it being banned.