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Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. MrEon

    MrEon

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    I am trying to make a sandstorm semi-stall team, and this is what I've come up with-


    [​IMG]

    Latias @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 SDef / 136 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Light Screen
    - Roar
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse


    [​IMG]

    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Substitute
    - Taunt
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake


    [​IMG]

    Scizor @ Lefovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248HP / 60 Atk / 200 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Roost
    - U-Turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Pursuit/Swords Dance

    Basically, I put Latias to deal with Kyogre and Gliscor handles Groudon. Then, I thought of using a steel-type, and Scizor came to my mind. Better special bulk than Forry, reliable recovery, an offensive prescence and great synergy with both teammates.

    1) Should I use Hippowdon or Tyranitar? It's simple - Hippo is a physical wall while Tyranitar is a special sponge, so I can use them according to what threatens my team. Speaking of which...
    2) Any significant threats to this core? Gliscor+Latias+ Scizor has perfect synergy, but I'm sure there is something that can break through the trio (or maybe not).
    3) SD on Scizor? That thing can get up to +6 with amazing ease on certain things (read: Lugia), and offers me a second back-up sweeper other than my main one (probably Excadrill/Chomp, but I'm also thinking of trying out Double dancer Terrakion). This is because I feel Pursuit trapping isn't really good in Ubers. Mewtwo OHKOes with Fire Blast and Giratina/Ghostceus can just burn me. Also, if I go with Tyranitar, I can use Pursuit on it.
  2. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Why all the OU Pokemon? I don't mean Latias, as Soul Dew is banned in OU and makes a huge difference, making Latias an excellent pivot in Ubers. Tyranitar/Hippowdon are obviously necessary for a sandstorm team, but Gliscor? Scizor? Garchomp? Terrakion? It almost feels as if you're trying to avoid playing Ubers in Ubers, and while most of these Pokemon aren't bad in Ubers, many of them also aren't that great. There's no point in giving yourself a 500 BST handicap.

    Hippowdon and Tyranitar are both great. Tyranitar is a good anti-lead and offensively capable, while also having quite significant bulk. Hippowdon, however, has reliable recovery, which is great because you want it to stick around to keep the sandstorm up. I would leave this decision until the rest of your team has been figured out.

    As for your core, while I can only theorymon here (I have never used Gliscor in Ubers, nor Scizor since DPP), while the core has solid defensive synergy in terms of resisting each other's weaknesses and having both special and physical bulk, I'm not too sure about it being a particularly effective core.

    That Latias can handle any Kyogre all day long, but apart from trying to rival Chansey's bulk (while having a much worse weakness in dragon, lacking natural cure and being unable to wish pass) it doesn't do much else with that set. A somewhat more offensively capable set, while losing out on being a 100% counter for all Kyogre sets, would generally be much more capable. Roar isn't doing much other than preventing CM Pokemon setting up either, what with there currently being no entry hazards on the team.

    I feel like Gliscor here is quite similar to said Latias, only with Groudon instead of Kyogre. It will handle most any Groudon with little difficulty, but I'm not sure what else it will do. Spreading toxic poisoning is nice, and taunt means things like Ferrothorn/Forretress/Skarmory can't just come set up entry hazards on you, but I don't see it doing much other than annoying the opponent and hard countering Groudon. The more specially-based Ubers metagame means that many offensive Pokemon will blow Gliscor to bits, and its merely decent (by Uber standards) physical bulk means that it can't safely switch in on powerful physical attackers. Something like Extremekiller Arceus (one of the most dangerous sweepers that all teams must have an answer for), for example, can SD while Gliscor is switched in, and the best Gliscor can accomplish is to toxic Arceus before being KO'd.

    Scizor, however, is the Pokemon I see as having the least potential to be useful. I simply don't see this Scizor accomplishing anything effectively. Its Attack stat is its only respectable stat in Ubers, and between a defensive item, little investment, low base power attacks and poor super effective coverage, it won't be hurting a lot of Ubers. At the same time it is slower than most Ubers (even defensive ones) and is NOT bulky. Few Ubers actually have worse overall defences than Scizor, meaning that reliable recovery and good defensive typing or not, it does not handle being hit by anything other than resisted moves well.

    As for SD/Pursuit, honestly (just as the rest of this Scizor) I don't see either being very useful. With little offensive investment and no LO/CB, Pursuit is simply weak (and yes, Tyranitar would do it better, thanks to STAB). However, SD isn't useful either. Firstly, no competent player will ever let you get +6. Secondly, Scizor does not get many set up opportunities. Most offensive Pokemon will simply destroy it if it tries to set up, due to aforementioned lack of bulk (really, the only exception is Scarfed Pokemon locked into a resisted move). Meanwhile, defensive Pokemon will snicker at its lousy damage (even if it did get a SD under its belt) and can then proceed to burn or phaze it. Scizor will never beat Lugia. It either carries Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, effortlessly preventing Scizor from ever getting +6, or (although NO ONE uses this) it is a CM set, which will KO Scizor long before Scizor KOs it (Scizor can't even OHKO at +6). U-Turn+SD is terrible, because U-Turn will lose any boosts. Regardless of which moveset you run, you're not hurting steel types.

    As for some more general advice, in stall or semi-stall, you want to handle as many threats effectively with your Pokemon as you can, while still having a solid winning strategy that is somewhat flexible. With semi-stall I assume it would be to deal significant damage with many entry hazards, combined with phazing and forcing switches with solid walls that the opponent cannot break through without dedicated wallbreakers, and then cleaning up a weakened team witha powerful scarfer or a bulky set-up sweeper.

    Because you need to have solid checks for as many Pokemon as possible in a team of 6, Pokemon such as Gliscor which hard counter Groudon, but are outclassed in many other roles are rarely viable. Really, the only time to have a hard counter to a Pokemon is when it would otherwise run through your entire team and is a prominent threat (every team has weaknesses, but if it is a weakness to an obscure set that rarely gets used, it's not worth worrying about). For example, a somewhat more offensive Latias with Grass Knot may occasionally struggle against Kyogre and lose some special bulk, but gains significant offensive presence and the ability to deal with most Groudon (freeing up Gliscor's spot for something more useful). Then, replacing Scizor with Ferrothorn gives you a much bulkier dragon resist, entry hazards, another way to deal with most Kyogre/Groudon, a good answer to most Zekrom and generally a good physical sponge. It can also spread status with Toxic/Thunder wave.

    If you're playing semi-stall, your team needs a good amount of hazards (SR+Spikes, SR+Toxic Spikes or all three), a solid spinblocker (else the hazards are pointless), solid defensive Pokemon that can handle a vast variety of threats, and late game sweeping power. Use Pokemon that can perform as many different roles effectively as possible. Scarf Terrakion can clean late-game, can check Extremekiller Arceus, deal with Darkrai, revenge kill many threats such as Kyurem formes/Reshiram/Rayquaza/Shaymin-S/Deoxys-A. Giratina can spin-block, wall a number of threats and phaze to rack up entry hazard damage. Excadrill is a fast, powerful sweeper in sand, can offer spin support and adds useful resistances (although it must under no circumstances be the only dragon resist in a semi-stall team). And so on.

    Your 6 Pokemon are aiming to defeat numerous different combinations of 6 Pokemon. They must be versatile, or they will simply not be able to do so.

    This thread could be quite useful to you for teambuilding. It simultaneously offers Pokemon to consider including in your own team (especially S-rank and A-rank), as well as giving you a checklist for threats that your team wants to be able to handle (if you can cover most of S-, A- and B-rank, you're doing really well).
  3. MrEon

    MrEon

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    Well, firstly, thanks for the massive reply O_o

    Secondly, you have convinced me to start over. Maybe it's time to go back to my old friend Kyogre again (rain offense, you know) :/
  4. superstar

    superstar

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    Honestly, I disagree with most of what you said here, although you were correct about Scizor. Sand is a great semi-stall archetype, and Latias + Gliscor is a decent core. You're going to need a Giratina anyways, so Extremekiller isn't too much of an issue. Gliscor is great because he can stall out half the tier.

    Scizor's Pursuit is just as strong as that of Tyranitar's because of Technician, but I do agree that Scizor sadly isn't very viable in this metagame. As far as the rest of your team goes, Hippowdon is somewhat redundant with Gliscor, so you are probably better with Tyranitar. Giratina is a good spinblocker. Genesect and Terrakion are both good Scarfers. Excadrill is awesome under sand both to spin and sweep. Arceus-Rock is very bulky under sand, and Arceus-Normal/Arceus-Ghost are good sweepers as always. Ferrothorn and your sand setter can lay the hazards you absolutely need, otherwise you may as well just go for a more offensive Latias set.

    Check out this link to look at Donkey's sand stall team, which can give you some ideas for stally cores.

    The lack of Sleep Clause will hinder you right now, but after it comes back you should be cool to play around with Semi-stall
  5. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Sorry about the wall, it's a bad habit of mine.

    Like I said, I was mostly theorymoning about Gliscor. While I've happily used it in OU to great effect, it didn't seem good enough for Ubers on paper to me (mainly because its defensive capability didn't seem good enough for the tier and because Ubers is a lot more specially based). Good to know I was wrong though, I always like discovering new viable non-Ubers in Ubers. Anyways, thanks for correcting me.

    As for MrEon, I'm with superstar that sand semi-stall is definitely cool and viable, by all means stick with it.
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Sand-Semi is a great team type but I'm curious as to why you are trying to build one of those. Nothing on your team really screams "give me sand", on the contrary, this looks like a core you would use with Rain. What are you trying to get done?
  7. puregenius

    puregenius

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    why use bliss over chansey?
    i cannot understand this at all
    leftovers isnt nearly as significant since they have wish and softboiled for recovery
    with eviolite, chansey can tank so many more hits
    ive heard arguments of sand and hazards before, but eviolite still sounds more useful
    some examples really help in ur explanation
    thanks :D
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Well, as much as a Chansey fan as I am when it comes to the two blobs, Blissey's Leftovers helps a lot when you don't have those free turns to spend Softboiling. Being able to come in and sponge a hit and then double switching to another favorable matchup is a lot easier to do with a Blissey than a Chansey (who'll find that the turns it doesn't spend healing will start to wrack up). This is especially true when it comes to sponging weaker hits as the gap between the two is a lot smaller (so the passive damage will play a bigger role). However, it is true that when it comes to simply switching in and walling stuff Chansey outclasses Blissey even in the sand.
  9. b2j135

    b2j135

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    I wanted to make a set for Deoxys-D and Deoxys-A and Deoxys, but more so for Deoxys-D based off of the new Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse event.
    Can you give me some good ideas?
    By the way here is the event: [youtube]qSypa8jbVN8[/youtube]
  10. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Nasty Plot isn't good on any of the Deoxys formes. They are all too fragile to setup and sweep (there's a lot of prio in ubers) with the exception of Deo-D who is too slow and weak to do so, either. Dark Pulse is only cool on Deo A/S to anti lead other Deo A/S.
  11. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    Which is better for spinblocking vs Excadrill: Giratina-A or Giratina-O, or are both equally good?

    Also, is either of them a good enough check to Groudon? Because I'm currently using Hippowdon on my sand team to deal with Groudon and I want to switch to Ttar to deal with Mewtwo, but I'm not sure if Giratina can beat offensive SD Groudon reliably such that I can free up a slot from Hippo
  12. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Both are amazing checks to Groudon, as they're extremely bulky (Giratina-O has Levitate too but Giratina-A is more bulky), and both are equally good at spinblocking Excadrill as both are 2HKOed by +2 Earthquake or Iron Head.
  13. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
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    I'd use Giratina on a sand stall team as leftovers can be quite crucial. And yes, they are both good checks to Groudon and great spinblockers on top of that.
  14. TheKiller7

    TheKiller7

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    Hi, i always wanted to know why does this happen to my rank,the only difference to the other times its that now i have proves lol i guess is something normal but i wanted to know why?, does anyone know?

    [​IMG]

    PD: I belive this is the wrong place to ask, if you can redirect me, it´ll be fine
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    It's because your rating is reevaluated after 15 matches.
  16. TheKiller7

    TheKiller7

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  17. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    I have a question about the way pokemonshowdown handles suspects tests; I know that showdown creates a temporary tier which they label as "suspect test", but does this "suspect test" tier replace the original because I can't find the "non-suspect test" Uber tier.

    Thanks

    P.S. I personnally believe that the recent Uber suspect test of lifting the sleep clause is and awful idea
  18. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    Yes. Once the test is over the regular ladder will come back.
  19. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    Does the regular ladder keep your original ELO (or whatever the showdown ranks you by)?
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    No there were ladder resets and the suspect ladder is treated as something completely different.
  21. Haruno

    Haruno

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    Out of curiosity, how will the species clause be tested? Will we be allowed as many copies of a Pokemon on our team? Or just an additional copy?
  22. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    We actually don't know yet! Hell, there is even a small possibility that we could cancel the species clause test (though I'll probably be against it). We are throwing around some ideas like "only formes", but talks didn't really get serious. We'll figure it out soon though!
  23. Aurorabird14

    Aurorabird14

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    With X and Y revealing the new fairy type, I hope the Dragon-Type will still be viable. Then again, Dragon-Types still have killer stats.
  24. Aurorabird14

    Aurorabird14

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    Why hasn't the sleep clause been implanted in pokemon showdown in ubers?
  25. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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    Because it's currently being suspect tested (tested to see whether it's actually broken or not). It'll be over soon though, and ubers should be back to normal soon (assuming sleep clause is kept).

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