Pokémon Avalugg

[Silver Scrapes]

I've found that Avalugg with 252/252+ is 3HKOd by Terrakion Close Combat. To be honest I thought it would be better than that.

I'd be willing to bet lugg could OHKO back with EQ or Gyro, though, and then proceed to recover.

Avalugg is looking towards RU tier IMO though, simply because he's an Ice-type and people panic over the prospect of putting Ice-types on their teams.

 

[Garchompi]

I've found that Avalugg with 252/252+ is 3HKOd by Terrakion Close Combat. To be honest I thought it would be better than that.

I'd be willing to bet lugg could OHKO back with EQ or Gyro, though, and then proceed to recover.

Avalugg is looking towards RU tier IMO though, simply because he's an Ice-type and people panic over the prospect of putting Ice-types on their teams.

Which is unfortunate because it should be a matter of "what it can wall" rather than "what type it is". Being able to avoid a 2HKO from Terrakion's Close Combat is rather impressive considering Avalugg is weak to it, can Recover off the damage taken and can OHKO Terrakion back with EQ/Gyro Ball (maybe Avalanche too?). Very few pokemon can do that.

It should be mentioned that the critical hits nerf is extremely helpful because Avalugg has enough bulk to avoid KO's from SE crit attacks in gen 6, something that couldn't have been possible in gen 5, especially after SR damage. Speaking of that, at this point it's clear that Avalugg works best as a physical wall with RS/Defog support rather than a rapid spinner, so the OP should be edited accordingly.

 

[Neab]

I don't know, in the best case scenario where no rocks are on the field and he can keep his Sturdy alive, he would always flatout win against each Dragon, even if they carry Fire Blast. Or he could even oneshot Special Attackers with Mirror Coat (since Blissey with Counter WAS a thing once).

I honestly think Avalugg is really really good - sure he'll get 3HKOd by a 120 BP + STAB Move that's super effective against him, budtthere are enough good switch-ins against Fighting Types now like a Ghost type, the new Fairy type or heck even Crobat who only takes 1/4 of them.

Edit:

Also,

0 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 272-320 (83.95 - 98.76%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

that's not too bad

 

[Silver Scrapes]

Any thoughts on a self-sufficient hail user with Ice Body?
Something like Hail/Protect/Avalanche/Insert Fourth Move with Lefties?

 

[Luigi player]

Any thoughts on a self-sufficient hail user with Ice Body?
Something like Hail/Protect/Avalanche/Insert Fourth Move with Lefties?

Why do all that if you could just use Recover? I mean it could work to wear them down a bit if you also have them Toxic'd or something, but eh... and if you run Recover as the fourth move on that set you really miss out on coverage. It's not like you really need Hail+Leftovers with Recover, since the things that you wall have no chance to hit you anyway.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

Why do all that if you could just use Recover? I mean it could work to wear them down a bit if you also have them Toxic'd or something, but eh... and if you run Recover as the fourth move on that set you really miss out on coverage. It's not like you really need Hail+Leftovers with Recover, since the things that you wall have no chance to hit you anyway.

I'd think Hail vs Recover is a question of if you're going to stall or wall.

Avalugg as a whole is probably better at walling with Recover.

 

[Schpoonman]

It should be mentioned that Avalugg OHKOs -1 Terrakion about 50% of the time with Rocks with 0 Spe hindering nature Gyro Ball.

4 Atk (custom) Gyro Ball (105 BP) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 282-334 (87.03 - 103.08%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Slheyas]

It should be mentioned that Avalugg OHKOs -1 Terrakion about 50% of the time with Rocks with 0 Spe hindering nature Gyro Ball.

4 Atk (custom) Gyro Ball (105 BP) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 282-334 (87.03 - 103.08%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There's probably something wrong with the calc cause I get this :

4 Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 272-320 (83.95 - 98.76%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Edit : Oh wait no its fine, I forgot fighting resisted rock and not ground, hurr.

 

[Vengeance417]

Is it viable to actually invest max EVs to Special Defense instead of Defense to round up the bulk, or is the Base Stat for SpDef too low for it to make a difference?

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, hell yeah!! Thanks Aurinko for the calcs :D now, the set could be:

Specially Defensive Avalugg

Nature: Careful
Ability: Ice Body/ Sturdy
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP/ 4 Atk/ 252 SpD
-Avalanche
-Crunch
-Earthquake
-Gyro Ball/Facade*

*Every pokemon with Toxic/WoW/TWave will status Avalugg, so..

0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 170-200 (42.07 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HK
I actually expected a little bit more here, but still usable.

What if I use 200 HP/ 56 Atk/ 252 SpD? Does it change something?

Assault Vest is not viable on Avalugg because it is not supposed to take special hits. Furthermore, it is 2x weak to Stealth Rock and has no recovery with Assault Vest, not to mention that it is slow as fuck and its main STAB requires it to take a hit. Never use that set in competitive play, there are way better mixed walls our there. No more talk for Assault Vest from now on.

 

[Garchompi]

You can't shut that topic down without providing proof of why AV isn't viable instead of pure theorymoning. Numbers first please.

 

[Hollymon]

It's already been said but again, why on earth would you waste all that defensive potential and instead use your time trying to make something which will never be. The fact is, it has 46 special Defense and even with investment and the assualt vest, it doesnt add up to all that much and anyway, there is definitely tonnes of better options for a bulky special wall. You are better off using the whopping 184 Defense to create a bulky defensive monster but it is still slow as and ice is a really bad defensive type so you are probably better off using a different pokemon. I really don't see Avalugg going beyond RU tbh but if you want to challenge that, I am open to your suggestions and it is a pretty cool ( get it? ) design

 

[Celever]

This could be the greatest user of Gyro Ball Pokemon has seen; stupidly slow but pretty great attack. Just a shame it doesn't get STAB on it really.

(This post is short I wanted to spark up a discussion on Gyro Ball Avalugg sorry :x)

 

[Punchshroom]

You can't shut that topic down without providing proof of why AV isn't viable instead of pure theorymonning. Numbers first please.

It doesn't take a genius theorymonner to figure out that a Pokemon with poor defensive typing, easily exploitable Special Defense, crap Speed, and the inability to heal is pretty much doomed for failure. These traits may remind you of Pokemon like Aggron, but at least Aggron can make its presence known with Rock Head STAB Head Smash; Avalugg's best move is boosted Avalanche, but if it is unboosted it sits at a paltry 60 base power, which Flareon will laugh at even if he didn't (finally) get Flare Blitz.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 243-289 (61.67 - 73.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 314-370 (79.69 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega-Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 196-232 (49.74 - 58.88%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega-Gengar Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 394-464 (100 - 117.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Well that doesn't help :P)
0 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 166-196 (42.13 - 49.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega-Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 139-165 (35.27 - 41.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Avoiding OHKOes is good and all....until you realize you cannot heal, there is no guarantee you'd even beat these sweepers, and you basically throw away Avalugg's biggest selling point, which is to wail on physical sweepers with titanic physical bulk and Recover, meaning you'd expose yourself to physical sweepers as well. Tell me that is not a recipe for failure.

You will also have noticed I only put max HP as the only defensive investment. The rest went into Attack because an Avalugg that cannot heal is a dead Avalugg, so you might as well hit as hard as you can, so don't even try to invest any more in defenses unless you want to be even more of a sitting duck.

Assault Vest Avalugg does not make use of its traits, because:
1) Even it if has just enough moves to fill 4 slots, it shouldn't really stick to attacking as its moves aren't really that strong. Especially Avalanche, which can turn from "strong STAB move" into "lol setup fodder", and makes it weaker than Earthquake and Stone Edge as a result.
2) Avalugg cannot switch into anything without fearing some sort of 2HKO. Even with its huge physical Defense, Avalugg resists almost nothing and is likely 3HKOed at best.
3) Avalugg is really damn slow. Even if it somehow manages to KO something, it will have taken damage and due to its inability to heal, it can no longer contribute much at all, if it even did in the first place.
4) The hazard weakness, jesus christ. If for some reason you wanted to spin with this thing, you're better off using Armaldo or Torkoal at that point, since they have actual resists.
5) You're not walling physical attackers anymore, you're now hoping to KO them before they KO you, which heavily undermines that '184 Defense' thing.
6) You wanted to tank special attackers with that typing? There are sweepers few and far between that don't carry a move that is super effective on Avalugg. If they don't, they either have a boosting move or just hit hard enough anyway.
7) Even with Assault Vest, Avalugg's newfound special bulk is still very poor, and you cannot even make use of it with Recover. As you can see, the only kinds of special attackers that don't KO have no offensive investment whatsoever so it is hardly a noteworthy feat.

 

[Banryu]

Uh, so back on topic.

I faced an Avalugg in PS and it wrecked me. I was really impressed with its defensive capabilities even for an Ice-type. I think pure Ice was actually not a terrible type for it, since it's unlikely to stay in to take any special moves, but it can tank even mediumish SE physical moves pretty well. It's nice to see that GF went out of their way to make most all of the new Gen 6 Pokemon pretty useful in their own way.

 

[deluge]

The problem is it would really appreciate Recover to take advantage of any SpD investment. Maybe a Curse set with Sturdy + Apicot berry.
(OK, let's just stick to Defense :P ) Despite the flavor text, it's actually better off being pure Ice than Ice/Steel due to the x4 weaknesses it would have gained.
I've seen some matches where Avalugg shrugs off SE attacks like they don't matter at all. That high defense and instant recovery makes all the difference.
It's very nice too that it can respond with very credible attacks of its own.

 

[alexwolf]

Last warning, no more talk about Assault Vest. If you don't get why it's not viable either read through this thread or read Punchshroom's last post in this very page. This is a thread to talk about competitive uses of Avalugg not gimmick sets that are completely outclassed and don't play the Pokemon to its strengths.

Also, stop it with those one line posts. We all get it that Avalugg has titanic bulk and we all get that it can tank even super effective physical hits, it's already been mentioned a thousand time. Moderation will be very strict so think before you post.

 

[Alopex]

My question is, really, how predictable is Avalugg? Would Mirror Coat help account for that predictability, or would it just get in the way of his walling?

Basically, at this point we all readily agree that Avalugg isn't going to be hanging around to take Special hits. With its typing, it really can't risk it. At that point, we'll have to switch to his core partner (likely Jellicent, Swampert, or Tentacruel). This would be rather obvious, though, giving your opponent that turn to setup on the switch.
So, in regard to that, should Mirror Coat be used in a set to account for that? When faced with a Special setup-er (hi Volcarona), you could stick around and let them set up, only to wipe them out with a Sturdy Mirror Coat.

Is that also too predictable/gimmicky, or is it something worth considering?

 

[Aurinko]

My question is, really, how predictable is Avalugg? Would Mirror Coat help account for that predictability, or would it just get in the way of his walling?

Basically, at this point we all readily agree that Avalugg isn't going to be hanging around to take Special hits. With its typing, it really can't risk it. At that point, we'll have to switch to his core partner (likely Jellicent, Swampert, or Tentacruel). This would be rather obvious, though, giving your opponent that turn to setup on the switch.
So, in regard to that, should Mirror Coat be used in a set to account for that? When faced with a Special setup-er (hi Volcarona), you could stick around and let them set up, only to wipe them out with a Sturdy Mirror Coat.

Is that also too predictable/gimmicky, or is it something worth considering?

It's a moveslot-problem, first and foremost. You really want to use a standard-set of Avalanche/EQ/Recover/Rapid Spin; you won't be able to exploit the physical bulk if you can't retaliate with Avalanche/EQ and you'll gonna need Recover badly, instant recovery is what lets Avalugg stand out. Rapid Spin poses itself more useful than Mirror Coat in nearly all circumstances - you don't want to rely on a full health Avalugg (especially with it's weakness to all entry hazards and Sandstorm!) to take out certain special threats while nearly fainting itself.

 

[Alopex]

Personally, while the utility of Rapid Spin is great, I don't think it has a place on a Pokemon that is susceptible to ALL entry hazards and who depends so much on Sturdy. Instead, I think Avalugg, like any other Ice type ever, will need RS/Defog support rather than use it itself. It helps, too, that most Defog users are Flying-type, a type that attracts Ice moves, the only ones Avalugg resists, assisting switch-ins. So really, I'm thinking that a Recover/EQ/Avalanche/MirrorCoat set might be more useful in the long run, and certainly more useful with the right team support. With Defog, RS isn't as big a necessity as it once used to be. The fact that Avalugg has such great core synergy with Tentacruel, a vastly more useful spinner who can also absorb/setup Toxic Spikes and burn opponents, means you're better off giving the RS to another mon such as that (if you don't want to use Defog because you have your own hazards in play).


Separately:
To get a guaranteed switch-in opportunity with Avalugg, I was thinking of running a dangerous sweeper that is pure physical Ice bait. Any ideas? At the moment, Dragonite seems like the best option, as he is bulkier on the special side than on the physical side, so might attract more physical Ice attacks than others. Also, Dragonite learns Defog. Thoughts?

Contemplating a Dragonite-Avalugg-Swampert core. I wonder if Gastrodon will still be better than Swampert in a metagate with far less weather...

 

[G-Von]

My question is, really, how predictable is Avalugg? Would Mirror Coat help account for that predictability, or would it just get in the way of his walling?

Basically, at this point we all readily agree that Avalugg isn't going to be hanging around to take Special hits. With its typing, it really can't risk it. At that point, we'll have to switch to his core partner (likely Jellicent, Swampert, or Tentacruel). This would be rather obvious, though, giving your opponent that turn to setup on the switch.
So, in regard to that, should Mirror Coat be used in a set to account for that? When faced with a Special setup-er (hi Volcarona), you could stick around and let them set up, only to wipe them out with a Sturdy Mirror Coat.

Is that also too predictable/gimmicky, or is it something worth considering?

I don't believe it's worth it simply because of Avalugg's main niches are being able to rapid spin and tank powerful physical hits. Spikes, SR, and SS damage destroys that strategy on the spot.

What I would like to discuss are the possible partners for Avalugg and the cores that he can be a part of. People have mentioned Gyarados, Slowking, Tentacruel, and Jellicent. However, Electric-types destroy these duos, namely Thundurus(-T). What are some of partners that could work well with Avalugg?

 

[G-Von]

Thing is that Avalugg and D-nite are SR weak and along with Swampert, the core gets destroyed by Terrakion, Keldeo, SF Landorus, Thundurus(-T), among others I'm assuming. Mono-ice is just so hard to build around.

 

[Blackbeltsam]

What about teaming Avalugg up with Venusaur? I mean, Venusaur can cover alot of Avaluggs weaknesses (and vice versa)


Well, except for fire. Gotta get a good water type or something with Flash Fire to deal with that, but no core is perfect.

 

[G-Von]

What about teaming Avalugg up with Venusaur? I mean, Venusaur can cover alot of Avaluggs weaknesses (and vice versa)


Well, except for fire. Gotta get a good water type or something with Flash Fire to deal with that, but no core is perfect.

Well Mega Venusaur has Thick Fat and increased defenses so it is a possibility. Pokemon like Keldeo and Thundy would have a hard time breaking through that duo now that I think about it. Special Kyurem-B would be a problem, too.

 

[Fundance]

Ok so we've done a lot of tests for Avalugg on the physical side of things, now I'm curious as to how it holds up with special defenses like that.

For starters, yes its special defense is abyssmal, but it does still have a very decent HP stat. If wet paper bag Floatzel can survive physical hits after a bulk up thanks to its base 85 hp, then surely Avalugg may be able to EV to survive certain things, allowing it to run another ability (such as Ice Body on a hail team) instead of Sturdy.