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Discussion in 'BW LC' started by v, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. v

    v protected by a silver spoon
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 2, 2008

    Weak to: Ice, Dragon
    Resists: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric

    46 HP / 87 Atk / 60 Def / 30 SpA / 40 SpD / 57 Spe

    Cool stuff bolded, iffy stuff underlined, banned stuff whited.

    Level-Up moves (open)
    Lv1: Scratch
    Lv4: Leer
    Lv7: Assurance
    Lv10: Dragon Rage
    Lv13: [M530]
    Lv16: Scary Face
    Lv20: Slash
    Lv24: False Swipe
    Lv28: Dragon Claw
    Lv32: Dragon Dance
    Lv36: Taunt
    Lv41: Dragon Pulse
    Lv46: Swords Dance
    Lv51: Guillotine
    Lv56: Outrage
    Lv61: Giga Impact

    TM Moves (open)
    TM01 - Claw Sharpen
    TM02 - Dragon Claw
    TM05 - Roar
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM11 - Sunny Day
    TM12 - Taunt
    TM17 - Protect
    TM18 - Rain Dance
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM27 - Return
    TM28 - Dig
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM39 - Rock Tomb
    TM40 - Aerial Ace
    TM42 - Facade
    TM44 - Rest
    TM45 - Attract
    TM48 - Troll
    TM54 - False Swipe
    TM56 - Fling
    TM59 - Complete Burn
    TM66 - Payback
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM75 - Swords Dance
    TM81 - X-Scissor
    TM84 - Poison Jab
    TM87 - Swagger
    TM90 - Substitute (lol)
    TM94 - Rock Smash
    HM01 - Cut
    HM04 - Strength

    Egg Moves aka garbage (open)
    Focus Energy
    Razor Wind
    Night Slash
    Iron Tail
    Dragon Pulse

    As anyone who has faced Dratini, Bagon or Gible in 4th Gen LC knows, Outrage is as a formidable weapon in Little Cup as anywhere. Kibago just happens to have 3 things in its favor that makes it theoretically viable. One, base 87 attack makes it, bar none, the strongest Outrage user in LC. Two, Dragon Dance immediately gives it an additional advantage over Gible and Swords Dance gives it an advantage over Dratini and Bagon. Three, Rivalry will often be giving Kibago a 25% boost to its moves.

    Downsides? Kibago doesn't get much beyond Outrage and that new multi-hit Dragon move. Dig can hit Levitators if you opt for Mold Breaker, but still won't hit stuff like Drifloon and Gligar. But, I guess Outrage will. X-Scissor, Return and Poison Jab are really the only other viable moves that Kibago gets.

    [M530] is a 40 BP Dragon-type move which hits twice and has 90% accuracy.

    Note that it is never worth using Adamant over Jolly, because the damage output from 18 and 19 Attack is completely identical.

    Here are some possible sets:

    Kibago @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Mold Breaker/Rivalry
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 220 Atk / 36 Def / 220 Spe
    ~Dragon Dance / Swords Dance
    ~[M530] / Dragon Claw

    This set's premise is pretty simple: DD up and sweep. Assuming that LC doesn't get Dream World abilities, this set should be pretty deadly. After a DD, Kibago gets up to 24 Speed and 27 Attack. From there, you can opt to Dig and hit their incoming Bronzor or drop an Outrage to 2HKO almost anything in the metagame. +1 Dig will 2HKO Bronzor, and +1 [M530] will always 2HKO Gligar, something that Dragon Claw cannot do. +1 Outrage will always OHKO 236 HP / 36 Def Munchlax after SR, and +1 [M530] will always 2HKO Max Def/ Max Def Munchlax.

    If using SD, then kills become much easier to net, though you'd better beware of Gligar, who will always OHKO you. The SD set's best bet is probably to spam Outrage, after SDing, which will OHKO Gligar and Munchlax, and 2HKO Bronzor.

    You could also run Scarf Kibago if you wanted, taking advantage of the immediate speed and employing a hit-and-run strategy with [M530] until the opposing team is in range for Outrage to finish off.

    Kibago @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Rivalry/Mold Breaker
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 220 Atk / 36 Def / 220 Spe
    ~Substitute / Taunt
    ~Dragon Dance / Swords Dance
    ~[M530] / Dragon Claw

    Kibago with Sub or Taunt. With Taunt it can stop Wynaut in its tracks, while with Sub it can get a free DD or an insured hit thanks to Sub. Calcs stay generally the same, as Kibago doesn't really have much choice as to how it distributes its EVs. [M530] seems like it will be the move of choice for a set like this, as it has good damage output with its only drawback being 90 accuracy. I am not sure about this set at all, but I figured that Taunt might be worth some use and you really can't go wrong with Sub.


    Overall, Kibago definitely seems to have some potential!! Especially compared to most of the new Gen 5 Pokemon who, like the Gen 4s, overwhelmingly have mediocre stats and movepools. Kibago may not entirely phase out the other Dragons, all of which have their own merits, but it should be, at the very least, usable.
  2. Sledge


    Oct 10, 2009
    Personally, I'm starting to get a bit worried that LC will start to get centralized around Dragons and Steels the way the OU was. With threats like Kibago being introduced, and with the already very powerful threats like Dratini, Bagon, and Gible there will be a good amount of threatening Dragon sweepers in the metagame. It's going to be pretty tough to handle all of these without Steel-types. The only problem with this is that there are really only 3 viable steels, Bronzor, Aron, and Magnemite. I can see double dragon becoming a very good strategy in 5th gen lc with the first one weakening the opponent's steel and then a second one cleaning up.
  3. Universal Berry

    Universal Berry

    Aug 14, 2009
    Seriously, I dont see the advantages it has a DDer over Dratini. Yeah, it has a great amount of power and speed, but lacks priority, which is kinda lame. Of course, its a great End-Game sweeper, just stopped cold by Bronzy.

    Also, is it me or the 5th gen gave us kinda crappy LC pokes? seriously most of them are kinda crappy stat-wise (didnt check the movepool though)
  4. MegaKick


    Mar 27, 2009
    I would rather use M530 over dragon claw any day, assuming sub stays as popular as it is. If you have magnemite support for bronzor, i'd definatly go with rivalry, as there are a lot less genderless and always female pokemon in little cup meaning he's often gonna be outa the gate at +1 attack.
  5. franky

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Apr 12, 2009
    not really remotely threatening as dratini because mold breaker isn't really abused to its full potential here - dig sucks ass. despite that, i can see strategies similar in the uber tier being developed in a similar manner in this metagame. i'm talking about double dragon - sd kibago + dd dratini can be a nice force to be reckoned with or even double dd kibago + dd dratini. as a stand alone sweeper however, i really think kibago is outclassed by dratini. kibago is better off luring and weakening bronzor for dratini to sweep sufficiently easier later on!
  6. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    Hmm I think we may end up seeing some Double Dragon strats here because if its monstrous attack stat. I could easily see CB Outrage being used before a DD set. And yea, Dig sucks ass.

    I'd probably use CB Kibago along with DD Tini.

    Also he is so cute omg
  7. TPM


    Aug 27, 2008
    Scarf Kibago + Scarf Bagon anyone?
  8. ShinyAzelf

    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 18, 2010
    The DD/SD set definitely seems threatening.

    Scarf Outrage also does a ton of damage early game. Definitely trying this thing out.
  9. Losa


    Mar 1, 2007
    This is an Outrage! :D
  10. giggity69


    Sep 15, 2009
    So yeah... LC and Ubers are on the verge of becoming interchangeable? lol Well not really, but you get the point. With GF introducing soooo many more dragons, I can see just about everything heading back to the Dragons Vs. Steels days when mence and latias were ou, especially now that them, as well as chomp are allowed in standard again! Well I digress, LC will certainly be affected by the new dragons just as much as everything else, but I think you got a few new steels to work with =]
  11. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight PillowmaGod
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    May 27, 2005
    Kibago has a lot of parallels to Cranidos, they even have the same speed (Kibago just needs more EVs to hit 16). Huge offensive power, paper defenses.

    Mold Breaker is actually awesome this Gen, because unlike Tini, Gible, and Bagon, Kibago can Outrage right through Sturdy. That's a very important advantage because LC has a fair few Pokemon with Sturdy, and Sturdy's upgrade will make them more viable especially because of this trait.
  12. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 vendetta
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 31, 2009
    Kibago and Cranidos both seem very, very similar in one aspect: they can both be deadly if they can get the chance to set up, but it's hard to find that chance. Cranidos has the problem in Gen IV setting up because Fighting-types and Water-types are so prolific, as well as priority moves.

    In Gen V, Snover and his Ice-type buddies now get a boost in Hail. With Kibago's most exploitable weakness being already common because of Gligar, that boost may now push Ice-types and Ice-type moves (particularly Blizzard) over the edge. And with 46/30/40 defenses, Ice Shard, or pretty much any priority, is going to put a healthy size dent in Kibago for sure.

    Actually, I believe LC will become dominated by the fight between Hail and Sandstorm. Hippopotas will be more common just because of Moguryuu, which is considered on IRC to be Little Cup's most powerful addition this Gen. Not only the mole, but Meguroko, Gobitto and Aaken all are immune to Sandstorm (Aaken's defenses benefit from it, even) and are all very powerful additions to Little Cup. And, of course, there is the chance of the return of old favorites, like Gligar and Lileep. Using Snover is the quickest and easiest way to get Sandstorm off the field. With new additions like Kumashun with Snow Cloak and Banipucchi with Ice Body, Hail is even better than ever. And honestly, a Sand Throw boosted Moguryuu's Earthquake or a Snover's Ice Shard is going to spell doom for Kibago.

    And, even without weather and Ice-types, Kibago's poor defenses are going to make setting up hard in the first place, unless you somehow get a Sub. That's why I'd rather use Choice Scarf over Dragon Dance. For Dragon Dance, I'd rather use the bulkier Bagon, who also has better coverage.

    All being said, Kibago is certainly a powerful addition, but those defenses and weakness to a type that's pretty common, as well as Rivalry potentially hurting it, make it hard to set up. Kibago can, and will, destroy teams if it gets the chance, but finding that oppurtunity will be tough.
  13. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 9, 2009
    Dear God I hope that Dream World abilities are breedable. That would give us Vulpix/more Swift Swim mons that would hopefully balance out Hail/Sandstorm, which were clearly buffed up this generation to be on par with Sun/Rain.

    Regardless, Snover is a pretty decent check to this thing, but it certainly won't enjoy being hit by a +1 Outrage if Kibago can set it up (which I suspect will be easier than, say, setting up a Rock Polish on Cranidos). Kibago doesn't have nearly as many weaknesses to exploit, which means that hitting it with just about any move won't OHKO it. I like Oran Berry on Kibago; using it should allow Kibago to set up a Dragon Dance while remaining at ~80%. 16 Speed gives you 24 Speed with a Dragon Dance, which is "fast enough". That puts it right on par with Pokemon like +2 Aron and +1 Mankey.
  14. Kannon


    Nov 2, 2008
    I can't exactly see what all the hype is over this really, it's got a really mediocre spread, and crap movepool outside of it's dragon/setup moves. Infact, since all three dragon moves have their own merits and it has no good moves to use besides them, I could see outrage/dragon claw/[M530]/swords dance or dragon dance.

    Mold Breaker isn't even that great on it, I'd rather go with the the opportunities that arise with Rivalry, such as inflicting more damage to physical walls such as gligar and gendered steels.

    Your best bet at using this thing is to kill bronzor or just wail on it with a +2 outrage and hope it dies, quite frankly
  15. kd24

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 21, 2007
    I think I'd use Choice Scarf with Outrage/Dragon Claw/Move 530/Complete Burn. Just use Complete Burn first time out to take scout Bronzor switch-in and remove it's berry, switch out, and then sweep later with your Dragon-type attacks. All 3 have different uses and merits and I would never want to be stuck into Dig on a Choiced Set.
  16. iss

    iss happily ever after
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 5, 2009
    Complete Burn is a lot better than Dig. Yes I know Dig will do massive damage to Bronzor, but Complete Burn can remove Bronzor's Oran. Dig is too predictable:

    Turn 1:

    Kibago used DD/SD!
    <Pokemon> used <Move>!
    It did 50% damage!Ki

    Turn 2:

    Kibago used <dragon move>!
    <Pokemon> was ohkoed!

    Turn 3:

    Bronzor switches in

    Bronzor switched to Gligar!
    Kibago used Dig!

    Turn 4:

    Kibago dug up!
    There was no effect!
    Gligar used SD/RP!

    Now you get swept by a Gligar. If you had used Complete Burn, Gligar loses it's Oran AND gets KOd next turn by a random Dragon move. This is why I feel Complete Burn is superior to Dig.
  17. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    Mar 17, 2010
    No matter what the hype is over complete burn, I really don't think it will be that good. In generation four, we have to remember that Knock Off was a tutor move (pretty much the same availability as TMs). If I remember correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't play lc this generation but I want to get into for this upcoming one), Knock Off wasn't used much this generation. It may be handy to destroy something's Oran Berry, but honestly, why not just do massive damage, maybe even have a chance to kill it, and break its Oran Berry in this manner? Of course, against Bronzor it may have some use due to Dig's unreliability, but bronzor won't like boosted X-Scissors either way. Therefore, I think Complete Burn is really a waste of a moveslot.
  18. kd24

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 21, 2007
    Reason being that Pokemon Knock Off might have been suggested for had much better options for sweeping anyway on Scarf sets. Kibago is using 3 Dragon-type attacks just because it can't run anything else effectively, and Complete Burn is just a useful scout/filler move.
  19. asiano


    Aug 18, 2010
    Dude that's a picture of a Ditto, not a Kibago :D

    Anyway Kibago has great attack but really nothing else. Still a jolly Kibago can be useful as it can weaken most of Dratini's biggest problems (like Bronzor) if it can set up a DD but still Dratini outclasses it as a single sweeper.
  20. matty

    matty I did stuff a long time ago for the site
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    Mar 31, 2008
    There is no doubt its gonna be a monster, but I'm not sure if this is a Cranidos 2.0, or if the Dragon typing + Outrage is going to make him much more feared.
  21. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    Dream World ability: Tension

    Tension - makes the opposing pokemon tense and won't eat their berry.

  22. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 29, 2008
    What really is there to discuss? Assuming Dream World abilities cant be bred, you lose Dragon Dance and Outrage. You can't set up, and you lose your best physical STAB. Disappointing.
  23. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    I'd probably never use DD Kibago anyway. Even if you lose Outrage, a Swords Danced Dragon Claw now 2HKOes Bronzor because it can't eat its Berry. The Scarf set would also get so many 2HKOes that it otherwise wouldn't, even if it'd lose some OHKOes here and there.
  24. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 7, 2007
    Not really true.. The damage may be the same on certain foes, but running through the damage formula..

    Damage Formula = (((((((Level × 2 ÷ 5) + 2) × BasePower × [Sp]Atk ÷ 50) ÷ [Sp]Def) × Mod1) + 2) × CH × Mod2 × R ÷ 100) × STAB × Type1 × Type2 × Mod3

    Just looking at the (Level × 2 ÷ 5) + 2) × BasePower × [Sp]Atk ÷ 50) section, assuming the move used is Outrage (120 base power) 18 gives 172 and 19 gives 182. Picking a random Defense stat, 10, gives 24 damage from 18 attack and 25 from 19. There is an advantage to each and every attack point, though not against every foe. Verified with Doug's calc for Pokemon with 10, 11, 12, and 13 defense, you'll deal more damage.

    Anyway, other than mythbusting.. it seems like a halfway decent Pokemon but still in the shadow of Dratini as a Dragon type sweeper. Just Bagon with a handy boost to offensive stats and Swords Dance, but without a movepool. Mold Breaking through Sturdy will be a fun trick though.
  25. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    I actually think CB Kibago will have an excellent niche in this metagame with Tension. It does 36% - 48% with Outrage vs Bronzor, meaning that it 2-3HKOes it due to the Berry not being eaten. Other Steels are in the same boat (likely worse). And other than that, nothing else can even dream of taking outrage.

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