Blissey

[FerrariCUBU]

I've done a good bit of investigating on the issue of Blissey v. Chancey. Overall, Pre-Evo Stone Chancey is better than Blissey. However, there are exceptions and there is a story behind this. For my examples I am assuming a Bold 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD spread for both Pokemon.

Chancey takes around 5% less damage than Blissey from special attacks. This can vary slightly based on how hard Blissey or Chancey is being hit. However, Chancey does not get Leftovers recovery. This means that in most cases Blissey will end up with around 1%-2% more HP than Chancey at the end of a turn after taking a special hit.

The big difference between Blissey and Pre-Evo Chancey comes when you look at how they each take physical hits. On average, Blissey takes 10%-20% more damage than Chancey. Again, variation is based on how hard Blissey or Chancey is being hit. Leftovers recovery should also be considered because Blissey will be regaining 6.25% of its HP at the end of each turn.

Now, I will look at a few situations where these two Pokemon differ. In Sandstorm or Hail Blissey is better since its Leftovers will counteract damage taken from the respective weather effect. Trick users should also be considered. Chancey loses a lot more of its edge than Blissey if it falls victim to a Trick user. That extra bulk will be lost. However, the Trick user won't benefit from Leftovers recovery.

It can be difficult to decide which Pokemon, Blissey or Chancey, to use as your special wall. If you hate losing Leftovers recovery, especially for a weather team, pick Blissey. If you like being able to take physical hits better, pick Chancey. The difference in special defensive capabilities is so minimal that it's not really worth considering.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

^I agree with that post.

Blissey has two main advantages over Chansey:

1) It's not rendered useless by Trick, since its defenses are naturally better. A tricked Blissey can still switch in multiple times and continue to wall things, but a tricked Chansey has to deal with its defenses being 1.5x worse as well as no items.

2) Blissey can actually use Special Attacks. It can be threatening in a tight spot, while Chansey has to rely on Toxic and Seismic Toss to deal any damage. Blissey can use Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower (or even lol Focus Blast) to benefit the team as something more than a wall. With Chansey, you always know what you're going to get...but Blissey can surprise you. This means that the number of things Blissey can counter is significantly higher than the number of things Chansey can.

With all that said I think both Blissey and Chansey will be OU this gen, which is a funny thought.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Funnily enough, it took me a while to realize that Blissey's Special Attack is actually usable, even with an uninvested 75 Special Attack. Though it's severely crippled, the Trick Mechanics in 5th generation allow Blissey to still go with some fight in it, so maybe it can do a last-minute attack on the usual Trickers.

Chansey, on the other hand, is just....ugh. Toxic.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Since GSC special attackers have had to go to extreme lengths to beat blissey, yet now that blissey has something that it cant beat without resorting to extreme measures you think a clause is necessary. If that was the case for the last three gens we should have had a "blissey clause".

They didn't have to go to "extreme measures" to beat her. There are many ways that you can beat blissey (well, you can't beat her directly but you can cripple her).

A. Use Taunt-many special attackers have access to this move. If you're scared of blissey, use it.

B. Use Trick-Numerous special attackers have this, use it!

C. Run a mixed set. For example, a purely special infernape can't beat her, but throw in close combat and she'll think twice about switching into you.

As you can see, there are multiple ways to beat blissey, whereas with shadow tag, the only options are shed shell or U-Turn (irrelevant in blissey's case, as she doesn't get it, but just saying).

 

[Tobes]

Now let's see...

A. Using Taunt means you are forced to use only two attacking moves if you want to use a boosting move (which is the only way the average special attacker could beat even a Taunted Blissey). Sacrificing a coverage move or STAB specifically to weaken Blissey = bad.

B. Trick is almost exclusively used on Psychic Pokemon. Which means Pursuit bait. Enter Tyranitar and Scizor to absorb the Trick and gain a free KO. Even if you do connect with Blissey, you have just lost your boost and Blissey is free to T-Wave any special sweepers you try to set up or just Seismic Toss as you try to inflict pitiful damage.

C. Mixed sets aren't used solely because Blissey exists. Take your Infernape example. What else is he going to use over Close Combat? Focus Blast? The choice between a 100 accuracy and 70 accuracy move on a Pokemon with over base 100 in both attacking stats and speed is pretty easy to make.

And by the reasoning you present in your last statement, Magnezone was Uber this whole time. Who knew.

 

[IcyMan28]

They didn't have to go to "extreme measures" to beat her. There are many ways that you can beat blissey (well, you can't beat her directly but you can cripple her).

A. Use Taunt-many special attackers have access to this move. If you're scared of blissey, use it.

B. Use Trick-Numerous special attackers have this, use it!

C. Run a mixed set. For example, a purely special infernape can't beat her, but throw in close combat and she'll think twice about switching into you.

As you can see, there are multiple ways to beat blissey, whereas with shadow tag, the only options are shed shell or U-Turn (irrelevant in blissey's case, as she doesn't get it, but just saying).

There are a few problems with this, as not all of it is as easy as it seems. The fact is that there are (were) significantly fewer pokemon who could muscle past Blissey on power alone, whereas there were several pokemon who could blow past Skarmory.

As far as Taunt is concerned, the above post pretty much covered it - you are forced to run a max of two attacking moves since you aren't getting past it without CM/NP. Which means that if you don't have that great of coverage with your STAB move, you won't be getting very far against the rest of the team. Switching into Blissey isn't all that easy either, as it does frequently carry a status attack.

Trick (and the elusive Switcheroo) is still restricted to Psychic- and Ghost-types, and its not like you'd be surprised to know that they run it on choice sets. The move is expected, so you need to be very careful about tricking Blissey in particular or you could reduce your power while STILL being walled. Simply pairing Blissey with something like Tyranitar or Scizor means that your Psychic or Ghost is easily pursued, though 5th gen fixed the Trick lock.

By virtue of using a mixed set, you are not a special attacker anymore - you are a mixed attacker. Nobody saw Fire Blast Salamence as a mixed attacker because the move was there to hit two pokemon, and only required a measly 24 EVs in SpA at that. CC Infernape? Had to run 64 Atk EVs and a Life Orb to OHKO Blissey with a STAB 120 BP move. MixMence? Has to catch Blissey on the switch as it can only 2HKO with Outrage. Explosion? Definitely counts as an extreme measure in my case.

Pretty much, before Gen 5, nearly every OU special attacker needed either a way around Blissey, or sport excellent team utility otherwise.

-LO Starmie: Impeccable coverage made it a star late-game sweeper and huge threat to the FWG cores of late Gen 4.

-Latias: SubCM or Trick was required, otherwise Blissey was a full stop.

-Jirachi: The focus of its sets shifted LARGELY to physical attacking once Platinum came around, as it no longer needed to spend 6 turns Calm Minding to take Blissey down.

-Celebi: Used defensively, didn't even try to get past Blissey. Ever.

-Shaymin: Even with LO and a STAB 120 base power attack sporting a 40% chance to halve Blissey's SpD, it had trouble.

-Gengar: Forced to SubSplit if it wanted to get by Blissey. Otherwise, Explosion.

-Heatran: See above, unless you have Specs, Flash Fire Boost, Sun, and entry hazards. Waaaaay to many requirements.

-Zapdos: Almost useless as an LO + 3 Attacker so long as the opponent had Blissey. It could switch in to take a hit and Roost of the damage, hoping to sweep once Blissey was out of the way.

-Lucario: One of the few pokemon capable of taking down Blissey with SpA thanks to STAB, and even that was too much of a hassle so the SD set became superior.

-Infernape: Again, +2 and LO are REQUIRED to take down Blissey with STAB Focus Blast, a 70% accurate move. Otherwise, it resorts to splitting its EVs and going mixed (an option it doesn't really have anymore with the horse trio running around).

-Suicune: Only Crocune can best it. Give up otherwise.

-Kyogre: Not OU, but its included for posterity's sake. It needs either MULTIPLE Calm Minds to take it down, or STAB + Rain Boost + Specs + 120 BP Attack to take down 6/252+ Blissey, which may just become the standard as newer, more powerful special threats are introduced.


Getting past Blissey with special attacks is and always will be difficult without significant set up. But now that Blissey has to budge a bit because it is threatened, people want to ban what is threatening it? I wasn't really around for Gen 3 battling, but I wonder what people thought of Magnet Pull Magnezone back then, as there was no Shed Shell and your steels were essentially checkmated.

 

[deinosaur]

Alright. What is this crap about Blissey going down? We know that she is the best Special Wall that has or possibly will ever be. Psycho Shock will definitely be a thorn in her side, but can't you see it coming? Espeon vs. Blissey:
Espeon switches into a Toxic or something. And now you switch to your Shandera that you will undoubetly carry, and proceed to beat it down.

Sure, maybe Blissey might need a little more help, but she normally does anyway.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Now let's see...

A. Using Taunt means you are forced to use only two attacking moves if you want to use a boosting move (which is the only way the average special attacker could beat even a Taunted Blissey). Sacrificing a coverage move or STAB specifically to weaken Blissey = bad.

B. Trick is almost exclusively used on Psychic Pokemon. Which means Pursuit bait. Enter Tyranitar and Scizor to absorb the Trick and gain a free KO. Even if you do connect with Blissey, you have just lost your boost and Blissey is free to T-Wave any special sweepers you try to set up or just Seismic Toss as you try to inflict pitiful damage.

C. Mixed sets aren't used solely because Blissey exists. Take your Infernape example. What else is he going to use over Close Combat? Focus Blast? The choice between a 100 accuracy and 70 accuracy move on a Pokemon with over base 100 in both attacking stats and speed is pretty easy to make.

And by the reasoning you present in your last statement, Magnezone was Uber this whole time. Who knew.

A. You still have to switch something in. If you mispredict, you fail. For example, you predict a taunt but instead you eat a close combat or flamethrower. Bye bye T-Tar and scizor.

B. It isn't always "pursuit bait". What if it has an item that will cripple your T-tar or scizor, such as a choice specs (unless you have TyraniBoah or something, which is highly unlikely). And, again, there is the issue of prediction. You mispredict, you die.

C. Yes, you're right, They aren't used just because blissey exists. In infernapes case, he also needs a fighting type move or heatran would wall him completely. So, as you can see, these sets are used quite often.

Also, you can't compare magnet pull to shadow tag. Magnet pull affects only steel types, whereas shadow tag affects ALL pokemon. Now, let's see, we have an ability that affects 39 pokemon (more or less one pokemon) and we have an ability that affects 649 pokemon. Hmm...it seems awfully hard to tell which is the cheaper ability.

 

[Raptorg]

Alright. What is this crap about Blissey going down? We know that she is the best Special Wall that has or possibly will ever be. Psycho Shock will definitely be a thorn in her side, but can't you see it coming? Espeon vs. Blissey:
Espeon switches into a Toxic or something. And now you switch to your Shandera that you will undoubetly carry, and proceed to beat it down.

Sure, maybe Blissey might need a little more help, but she normally does anyway.

For that reason, I run ScarfEspeon, it 2HKO's Shandera, while outspeeding the scarf variants.

 

[deinosaur]

Whatever. I have Burungeru too.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

With all that said I think both Blissey and Chansey will be OU this gen, which is a funny thought.

From first impressions, I'm thinking Blissey will be OU, and Chansey will be UU, similar to DPP.

In that situation, Chansey in UU would have the option of Leftovers, since Blissey isn't there to outclass it.

But yeah, I could be wrong. I remember Heracross and Cresselia being top 10 in the first Generation IV usage stats, and a few years later they'd dropped to UU usage.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

From first impressions, I'm thinking Blissey will be OU, and Chansey will be UU, similar to DPP.

In that situation, Chansey in UU would have the option of Leftovers, since Blissey isn't there to outclass it.

But yeah, I could be wrong. I remember Heracross and Cresselia being top 10 in the first Generation IV usage stats, and a few years later they'd dropped to UU usage.

If BW UU is anything close to DPP UU, I don't believe Stone Chansey will be allowed down there... Not that I have ever played DPP UU seriously, though.

 

[CanadiEntei]

I've had a few rage quits from my Chansey/Blissey, AS A LEAD (or Rugged Helmet Substitute Zoroark in disguise if I have Lefties on Blissey):

Evo Stone Bluffey (Chansey) **OR** Blissey

Chansey/Blissey @ Rugged Helmet
Serene Grace
252 Def
(I tend to vary the rest of EV's with either 252 in Speed or Special Attack)
-Defense Curl
-Thunder/Thunderbolt/ThunderWave/Toxic (Politoed)
-Wish/Softboiled (I usually opt for Softboiled
-Substitute / Seismic Toss / Stealth Rock / Heal Bell / Aromatherapy
(Stealth Rock or Substitute used more, last slot)

Most rage quits happen after two Defense Curls. Or after they switch INTO a Defense Curl.

 

[Tobes]

A. You still have to switch something in. If you mispredict, you fail. For example, you predict a taunt but instead you eat a close combat or flamethrower. Bye bye T-Tar and scizor.

B. It isn't always "pursuit bait". What if it has an item that will cripple your T-tar or scizor, such as a choice specs (unless you have TyraniBoah or something, which is highly unlikely). And, again, there is the issue of prediction. You mispredict, you die.

C. Yes, you're right, They aren't used just because blissey exists. In infernapes case, he also needs a fighting type move or heatran would wall him completely. So, as you can see, these sets are used quite often.

Also, you can't compare magnet pull to shadow tag. Magnet pull affects only steel types, whereas shadow tag affects ALL pokemon. Now, let's see, we have an ability that affects 39 pokemon (more or less one pokemon) and we have an ability that affects 649 pokemon. Hmm...it seems awfully hard to tell which is the cheaper ability.

A. That has nothing to do with what I was saying about Taunt in any context.

B. Even if T-tar or Scizor are crippled they've still killed your attacker.

And you clearly didn't pick up on the sarcasm in my last statement. I was showing that saying Shadow Tag needs to be banned just because Blissey needs to run Shed Shell is ridiculous.

 

[lmitchell0012]

A. That has nothing to do with what I was saying about Taunt in any context.

B. Even if T-tar or Scizor are crippled they've still killed your attacker.

And you clearly didn't pick up on the sarcasm in my last statement. I was showing that saying Shadow Tag needs to be banned just because Blissey needs to run Shed Shell is ridiculous.

A. Yes it does. Re-read this thread if you don't get it.

B. Crippling is the least of your problems. If you switch into an ATTACKING move you're probably dead.

And btw, you're the one making yourself sound stupid in this thread, not me.

 

[g_man92]

Quote:
Originally posted by Mario With Lazers
Yeah bitches, the premier wall since Red/Green is back for round 5.

Blissey hasn't been around since Red/Green...Chansey first received her evolution in Gold/Silver...

 

[Tobes]

A. Yes it does. Re-read this thread if you don't get it.

B. Crippling is the least of your problems. If you switch into an ATTACKING move you're probably dead.

And btw, you're the one making yourself sound stupid in this thread, not me.

*rolls eyes*

Ok, I'm not going to bother responding to you after this because this is clearly getting nowhere. First of all, I was talking about Taunting BLISSEY. BLISSEY! NOT TYRANITAR OR SCIZOR. That's why what you said was completely and totally unrelated. Seriously, how the hell did you get Infernape was against Tyranitar or Scizor from that? All I said was that using Taunt just to set up on Blissey was a bad idea. Secondly I was making the point that Trick isn't a 100% stop to Blissey, which you were making it out to be. What you're saying right now could go the other way, and Blissey's now walling your special attacker like she was meant to.

Oh, and way to make an unwarranted and unjustified personal attack. You sure showed me. Good job.

 

[SMZ]

I've had a few rage quits from my Chansey/Blissey, AS A LEAD (or Rugged Helmet Substitute Zoroark in disguise if I have Lefties on Blissey):

Evo Stone Bluffey (Chansey) **OR** Blissey

Chansey/Blissey @ Rugged Helmet
Serene Grace
252 Def
(I tend to vary the rest of EV's with either 252 in Speed or Special Attack)
-Defense Curl
-Thunder/Thunderbolt/ThunderWave/Toxic (Politoed)
-Wish/Softboiled (I usually opt for Softboiled
-Substitute / Seismic Toss / Stealth Rock / Heal Bell / Aromatherapy
(Stealth Rock or Substitute used more, last slot)

Most rage quits happen after two Defense Curls. Or after they switch INTO a Defense Curl.

Why would you use Rugged Helmet when you could just go with Evo Stone. Defense Curl Blissey was meh in gen IV, but it might have changed a bit now.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Quote:
Originally posted by Mario With Lazers
Yeah bitches, the premier wall since Red/Green is back for round 5.

Blissey hasn't been around since Red/Green...Chansey first received her evolution in Gold/Silver...

To be fair though, Chansey was like in the top 10 OU Pokemon back in RBY too, although back then it had a higher special attack than the likes of Mew, Venusaur and Starmie! So basically, Chansey wasn't missing Blissey back in those days. One thing I always wondered though, would Chansey have been OU in GSC to DPP if Blissey wasn't around? I think it would've been, until perhaps a year ago.

 

[CanadiEntei]

Why would you use Rugged Helmet when you could just go with Evo Stone. Defense Curl Blissey was meh in gen IV, but it might have changed a bit now.

Because most of my favorite Pokemon are second stage of three. Or a final form of a two stage process. And if I like UU over most anything else, then a bunch of awesome stuff will do decent with an Evolution Stone. And if Chansey is as Chansey is when Evolution Stoned and there is no Leftovers recovery after taking damage from a non-contact hit after I have Defense Curl'd up, then it "could" be understandable for the battle to take a moment to continue.

The pink queen has bad defenses. Far as I have noticed...

Charm, Reflect, Evolution Stone, Defense Curl, and Baton Pass (towards a Chansey/Blissey) are among most options to raise physical defense.

I had a similar pause in battle from a Bulk Up Evolution Stone Guts Dotekkotsu (middle stage of Roobushin) as I brought it in after one layer of Toxic Spikes from a Dasutodasu (trash bag).

Most of my 'wins' have been from the opponent rage quitting as most of the time I lose.

 

[JSND]

okay have tried facing both blissey and ES ssey and found out that Bliss is better for me.
My own argument is stall mew deal 18,75 % of damage each turn. not calculating hazard.
taunter + recovery + status problem is very efefctive especialy mew and 18,75 vs 12,75 realy take its toll especialy during the turn after it switched in. i need 8 turn to beat Bliss but chan is easier which means i lost lower amount of pp which sometime is great

 

[alphatron]

So I can't use this pokemon. I just can't. It isn't permitted.

I've tried everything. I tried CM Bliss to beat out other CM boosters not named Reuniclus. I ran into several CM Refresh Latias who were actually carrying Psyshock as their only attack. I ran into a magic mirror umbreon with CM, Psychock, and Morning Sun. I tried using it to wall Latios and would always end up holding a choice scarf. I tried using it holding mail and the trick users were no where to be found, making me feel like an idiot.

I tried using it as a support pokemon to keep from becoming setup fodder. Lum Berry Blaziken switched in on the thunder wave. Yache chomp began tanking the ice beams again since I wasn't carrying CM, and Conkeldurr actually became a threat. I tried using it to wall Heatran on enemy sun teams. He kills me in three hits. I tried running Calm Blissey. with Maximum SpD. People would always catch on and switch in any physical pokemon at all whatsoever.

I just can't do it. I can't. I had my shining moments with this pokemon, but ugh...

Back to Jirachi I guess.

 

[truevillany]

B;issey and chansey will be fine. Yea Psychoshock is pretty rough on them... and that is a notable nerf balance that gamefreak put into play. However, her usage will only waiver for a short time in the meta... Here is why...


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
SASSY nature 252 hp 252 spdef 4 def
Thunder wave
Fire blast
Crunch
Rest

This thing freaking RAPES any chandelure crazy enough to stay in on it... it walls ALMOST as good as chansey/blissey in a sandstorm. Its bulky and can easily set up sandstorm multiple times for scary sand abuser friends... Even though it is WEAK to a ton of moves it still is hard to kill with special attacks.


My PREDICTION (note the word prediction) is that this thing will get so much more use that it should scare trainers from using chandelure as it can do nothing against this tyranitar. Meaning that there will be less frequency of that ONE pokemon screwing up chans/bliss. Therefore, she will make a glorious comeback later on in the game as a premiere special wall... because you may never know which special wall you will face...

Thoughts?


P.S. I always liked this special wall better than blissey anyways... it can wall and actually hurt things...

P.S.S. I KNOW THIS IS NOT A TYRANITAR THREAD!!! I am just throwing him in there to help support my prediction on why chans/bliss will retain a lot of usage in the ou metagame...

 

[alphatron]

Nah, it's alright. Everyone has been using specially defensive mixed tyranitar as their special wall for quite some time now. Blissey...is long gone. A rare sight.

 

[IcyMan28]

QFT. Blissey is really only an option on stall these days. And even then, Chansey competes. Good riddance, too.