Bronzong (BW2 Revamp) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ScraftyIsTheBest, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
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    Okay, it's time to do for old 'Zong. It's still as effective as ever.

    [​IMG]

    Behold, it is the mighty Bronzong

    [Overview]

    <p>Bronzong remains unchanged in the transition to BW2. It is still a solid wall, boasting high defenses, the coveted Steel-type, and a fine support movepool. However, it receives tons of competition from other defensive Pokemon, such as Ferrothorn, who boasts a better defensive typing and a broader movepool. Bronzong still clings to its niche though; thanks to its ability and great typing, it can reliably check some threats Ferrothorn can only dream of checking, including Tornadus, Gliscor, Landorus, and Mamoswine. Bronzong is also not 4x weak to Fire, so it does not fear Fire-type attacks as much as its main competitor does.</p>

    <p>However, Bronzong's ultimate downfall is its lack of reliable recovery, causing repeated hits to eventually take their toll on it. Bronzong also sports middling offensive stats&mdash;though they are often enough to damage the enemy, Bronzong cannot maintain as much pressure as Ferrothorn, another setback. Anyone using Bronzong must use it to its advantages to ensure that it is not outclassed.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Gyro Ball
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: Earthquake / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Sassy
    evs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Bronzong's signature set, which it pulls off quite decently. Thanks to its great typing and defenses, Bronzong can reliably take repeated attacks from numerous Pokemon such as Tornadus, Kyurem-B, and Landorus. Stealth Rock is the crux of this set; Bronzong can reliably set it up using its great defenses and numerous switch-in opportunities. Gyro Ball is the STAB move of choice here, and thanks to Bronzong's poor Speed and usable base 89 Attack stat, it can put sizable dents in numerous Pokemon. Hidden Power Ice is an excellent coverage move, which hits some threats checked by Bronzong, such as Landorus, Gliscor, and Thundurus-T for good damage. Finally, the move in the last moveslot can be chosen to meet the player's needs. Earthquake is a great coverage move, and allows Bronzong to smack incoming Heatran and Magnezone. Toxic is also usable to wear down opposing bulky Pokemon, as Bronzong often cannot hit them hard enough.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Maximum investment in HP is to attain as much bulk as possible. 168 EVs are invested into Defense to allow Bronzong to take physical onslaughts much better, particularly Outrage. The remaining is invested into Special Defense to give great overall bulk. The EV spread is, however, flexible; 104 Attack EVs can be invested if there is a need to OHKO on Heatran, Gengar, and Terrakion. A Sassy nature is chosen here to not only provide extra Special Defense, but in order to give in minimum Speed to utilize Gyro Ball effectively. The 0 IVs in Speed serve the same purpose. 2 Speed IVs may be used to enhance the power of Hidden Power Ice, but the extra power is often not necessary and additional Gyro Ball power is more appreciated as it is the attack Bronzong will be using most often. Trick Room is usable on this set due to Bronzong's low Speed and can be used for further support. Additionally, Explosion can be used for a suicide move to safely send a teammate in while dealing as much damage as possible.</p>

    <p>Tyranitar is a great ally to this set, as it can take the Fire-type attacks that Bronzong tends to fare poorly against. Its Sand Stream ability also negates sun, weakening opposing sun teams while dealing residual damage that helps Bronzong better fill its role. As Bronzong has no reliable recovery, Wish support is appreciated. Both Blissey and Vaporeon are good candidates for this role; with their massive HP stats, they can restore a large amount of HP.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Reflect
    move 3: Gyro Ball
    move 4: Earthquake / Hypnosis
    item: Light Clay
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Sassy
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With impressive bulk and typing, Bronzong can fulfill the role of a Dual Screens user well. With its myriad of resistances and a decent offensive prowess, Bronzong stands out from the other candidates for this role, such as Deoxys-D. It also lacks the common Pursuit and U-turn weaknesses that other users of the move, such as Deoxys-D, tend to suffer from.</p>

    <p>Light Screen and Reflect are the centerpieces of this set. Besides further enhancing Bronzong's staying power, they are this set's main form of support. Gyro Ball is the STAB move here, putting sizable dents in Pokemon such as Tornadus and Kyurem-B thanks to its poor Speed stat. Earthquake is a decent coverage move to pummel Heatran and Magnezone. However, Hypnosis can incapacitate incoming counters, and with the new sleep mechanics, it essentially eliminates them from the match.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>HP and Special Defense are maximized to give Bronzong as much special bulk as possible in order to take on Tornadus and Landorus. A Sassy nature is chosen here to maximize Special Defense while minimizing Speed to utilize Gyro Ball effectively. Finally, Light Clay is the preferred item to extend the duration of Light Screen and Reflect. Explosion is a usable move in order to sacrifice Bronzong to send in a teammate safely; however, the nerf it received this generation makes it significantly less effective. Stealth Rock can also be used, but Bronzong sadly has a case of four moveslot syndrome.</p>

    <p>Pokemon who benefit from Dual Screens support are good teammates. Such Pokemon are usually frail setup sweepers such as Lucario and Azelf. Additionally, Pokemon capable of passing Wish, such as Blissey or Vaporeon, are useful teammates as well, as they can pass massive Wishes to patch up Bronzong's lack of recovery. Walls such as Gliscor and Chansey appreciate the softening of attacks to be able to wall better, and also be able to take hits from their weaker defensive stat.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Thanks to Bronzong's decently wide movepool, there is enough room for some creativity in its sets. It can run Calm Mind to boost its middling 79 Special Attack and 116 Special Defense, along with two STAB moves in Psychic and Flash Cannon, although this kind of set is better left to other users of the move, such as Reuniclus. Zen Headbutt is a usable move on any of the sets for a secondary STAB, though Psychic isn't exactly a stellar offensive typing. A Choice Band set is also usable, dealing decent chunks of damage as well as being able to Trick away its item to cripple common switch-ins such as Skarmory and Forretress. Bronzong also has access to other attacking moves in Rock Slide, Grass Knot, and Signal Beam, although none of these provide much useful coverage. Rain Dance can be used to power up Swift Swim based rain teams, and it also nullifies Bronzong's weakness to Fire-type moves. Due to Bronzong being relatively heavy, Heavy Slam can have some use, although Gyro Ball is generally more reliable. Payback can be used thanks to Bronzong's poor Speed stat, although it does not provide any noteworthy coverage. Skill Swap has its use to cripple Reuniclus and poison it with Toxic, particularly on hail and sand teams, though Levitate is one of Bronzong's best aspects. Protect is also useful for Toxic stalling as well as Leftovers recovery, but sadly, Bronzong suffers from a case of four moveslot syndrome. Finally, Heatproof is a decent ability to weaken Fire-type attacks, but the immunity to Ground-type moves granted by Levitate is simply too good to let go.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Volcarona is one of the biggest checks to Bronzong, it takes little from any of Bronzong's attacks and can use it as setup bait to attain numerous Quiver Dance boosts. It can also incinerate the bell with Fire Blast. Keldeo does not care about anything Bronzong throws at it, and can eliminate Bronzong with a rain boosted Hydro Pump. Users of Taunt, particularly Sableye, are annoyances to Bronzong. Sableye can also burn Bronzong, and thus take laughably little damage from anything, though it must be wary of Toxic. Magnezone can trap Bronzong, and should it not carry Earthquake, it wear it down with repeated Thunderbolts or Hidden Power Fires due to Bronzong's lack of reliable recovery. However, it cannot come in on an Earthquake. Many Fire-types can check Bronzong and decimate it with their moves, but must be wary of an incoming Earthquake. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress laugh at Bronzong's attempts to do anything to them and can lay down multiple layers of Spikes in the process. Finally, Rotom-W also takes pitiful damage and can use its options at its disposal against Bronzong.</p>
  2. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    I've been using Bronzong a ton lately and HP Ice > Toxic. Hitting Garchomp, Landorus(-T), and Gliscor is HUGE. Bronzong fares excellently against these Pokemon, in fact, these are Pokemon that heavily account for Bronzong's use. Toxic's nice against some things like Hippowdon and Vaporeon, but the majority of opponents are more vulnerable to an offensive move. There is something the Attack investment is for (I forget exactly right now), but keep it, it's needed to hit hard enough against Tyranitar, Heatran, etc.
  3. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    I'm not QC, but I get pretty solid boners for Bronzong, so I'd like to make a few comments on and suggestions for this skeleton:

    [Overview]
    Boosted Focus Blasts will eventually take their toll; also, weird SD + Roost Gliscor can beat Bronzong. Be sure to specify that Bronzong is really only serving as solid check to these Pokemon as, combined with the lack of recovery, repeated assaults from Lando-I, Garchomp, Gengar, Latios, etc can spell Bronzong's doom pretty quickly. Also, please mention Bronzong absolutely shitting Mamoswine here since only a handful of Pokemon are capable of doing so (when taking into account potential flinch hax from Icicle Crash).
    You're forgetting about only being 2x weak to Fire, having an Ice resistance, and immunity to Ground -- all of which are important to note if you're getting into Bronzong's defensive advantages over Nattorei.
    This is just untrue. Bronzong is more than capable of tanking unSTABed Fire Blasts, partiuclarly those from Salamence, as well as Genesect's Flamethrower. One of the main reasons behind one should even consider using Bronzong over something that doesn't get set up on by, like, everything in OU is the lack of a 4x Fire weakness; this gives Bronzong the ability to serve as a decent check to most mixed dragons outside of rain.

    Please don't forget to mention that this is somewhat mitigated by Bronzong's good coverage.

    [SET COMMENTS]
    There are quite a few other targets which HP Ice hits noticeable harder than Gyro Ball, namely Lando-T, Gliscor, bulky SD Breloom, and Thund-T -- be sure to mention these guys as well. HP Ice also ensures that Bronzong doesn't lose to SubSD Garchomp and, for that matter, take unneeded residual damage from Rough Skin.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    Alright foremost, please mention that Bronzong's EV spread is flexible for the player's needs. For instance, it can invest more significantly into Special Defense in order to better check Lando-I and Lati@s; the loss of physical defense can be made up for in Reflect, as well as Bronzong's teammates. Speaking of screens, I'd like to see both moves, as well as a few other moves mentioned in AC as alternatives to one or more of Bronzong's moves. HP Fire is great for ridding the field of Genesect, Forretress, and at least damaging Nattorei; Hypnosis, despite its frustratingly bad accuracy, is still a decent move due to sleep machanics -- a medium-risk, medium-reward move; there's also Explosion, which is great for more offensive teams since it allows another Pokemon to get in for pretty much free. As far as partners go, spin support is pretty much mandetory if Bronzong isn't being used on some variant of offense due to every single Spiker setting up on it for pretty much free. Starmie and Forretress are candidates for filling that role. Wish support is great, but not required IMO, since Bronzong tends to be a pivot around certain threats, as opposed to a committed wall. Also, be sure to mention that Bronzong is usually the glue of a team, so specific defensive and / or offensive partners are less of a priority.


    [SET COMMENTS]
    It's a little slashy, but I've found that all of the above moves useful on this particular variant of Bronzong. Explosion is very good move to use if Bronzong is to be paired with something that benefits from Trick Room -- and if one is using a team of base 110s with this Bronzong, then something has gone horribly wrong -- and is very powerful when taking into account the power boost from Life Orb. HP Ice is useful for the same reasons it is on the previous set; hitting Lando-T, Garchomp, and Gliscor for heavy damage is always great, especially when under the ticking clock of Trick Room. Finally, Stealth Rock is useful on this set despite its offensive nature. It's very beneficial to teams which need a method of working around offense, but really have room for Stealth Rock -- and besides, this Bronzong is going to by spamming Gyro Ball 90% of the time, anyway. Hypnosis is pretty unreliable and only deserves AC here, imo (then again, my luck is pretty horrible with that particular move, so my opinion on it is kind of biased).
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    Please, please, please mention Trick + Macho Brace so Bronzong won't be deadweight vs more defensive teams / can cripple something fast as a last ditch effort.


    -- Where's the TR support set? --​

    [SET COMMENTS]
    I admit: I'm in love with Explosion on Bronzong. On this variant however, it's very useful since Bronzong not only gets another Pokemon in safely, but also doesn't waste vital turns of screens. Gyarados wants to switch in and stall out screens with Substitute? Blow up and send something that can easily do away with it.


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    I'm too lazy to run calcs, but if this spread doesn't change, mention something more capable of taking hits from CB Terrakion while under a Reflect.


    [Other Options]
    ...huh? Psychic ensures that BU Toxicroak and Roobushin don't laugh at Bronzong's attempts to stop it. I don't get the Reuniclus comparisons here, either. Are you saying that Reuniclus is performing a similar role as Bronzong -- implying that Reuniclus has a Ground immunity and access to SR?
    Yeah no. Hitting something attempting to set up for a ton of damage + getting in a sweeper for free isn't OO material, IMO.
    Uh, what? Trick cripples almost every single thing that generally feels safe switching into Bronzong. Also, CB Gyro Balls are smarts; this ensures that Bronzong doesn't have to rely on HP Ice to plow through certain Ground- and Dragon-types. It's certainly not worth a set, but saying that it's "outclased by Genesect" is just like saying that CB Stoutland mostly outclasses CB Snorlax.
    There's plenty. Grass Knot, Rock Slide, Signal Beam, Recycle, Payback, Bulldoze, other Hidden Power types, Calm Mind (almost got freaking swept by a stupid CM + Rest Bronzong once >_>), Heatproof and Heavy Slam have some use. Bronzong has room for some creativity due to its surprisingly great movepool.

    [Checks and Counters]
    There's more to threatening a tank such as Bronzong than overhwhelming it with strong offensive Pokemon. Just generalize the offensive checks as Pokemon that don't mind Gyro Ball or Earthquake, since HP Ice is laughably weak and usually not enough to stop certain Pokemon. Next, emphasize on Bronzong being fodder for pretty much every single Spiker in OU. Deo-D, Nattorei, Skarmory, and Forretress could give two craps less about Bronzong. Also, "all Taunt users" is pretty vague since there are many Pokemon which benefit from squeezing Taunt into their moveset. If you're specifically referring to "stallbreakers" such as Mew and Gliscor, then do so, but keep in mind that these Pokemon must be switching into Bronzong to threaten it. This section would be better off mentioning Taunt leads, as opposed to users of the move, since Bronzong occasionally leads off its team for quick SR.
  4. Ernesto

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    It may not be worth more than an AC mention, but I used Bronzong as a supporting Trick Room setter on my DH team to great effect. The set in question was:

    Bronzong @ Normal Gem / Leftovers
    move 1: Trick Room
    move 2: Gyro Ball
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Stealth Rock / Hidden Power Ice
    evs: 252 HP / 56 Att / 200 (Sp)Def
    nature: Brave / Sassy (depending on what role you're using it for)

    HP Ice is nice for hitting Salamence, Garchomp and Landorus, three Pokes it can counter (in Mence's case, it has to watch out for Fire Blast if using the physically defensive spread), but Gyro Ball hits Dragonite and the Lati twins for more damage so it's not really needed. If you have another SR setter (maybe one that isn't Taunt bait), though, you can put some EVs on Special Attack, but they won't really make a big difference. Normal Gem Explosion is really cool, it catches many Pokes, such as Rotom-W, that think they can switch in for free on the dohtaku. That said, Leftovers can be used if you want Zong to last longer.
    Explosion is key on Bronzong, not only because it can possibly take something out with it, but it also gives a free switch in to a Trick Room abuser.
    Show Hide
    My strategy consisted on getting Zong in on something I knew wouldn't beat it -Chompy coming down from Ubers was the best that could happen to it-, set up Trick Room, KO the opponent if I could or simply Explode to give a free switch in to CM Slowbro or CurseLax, depending on which I thought had more chances of succeeding. Then, the switchin could boost its attacking stat and its lower defensive stat on the remaining TR turns, then sweeping – only thing to watch out for was crits, otherwise I was fine.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    About the first set... Put HP Ice before Toxic, it is needed in order for Bronzong to do its job, allowing it to rival the Pokemon that the people above me already mentioned. Also you need to exlain the arbitary placement of the EVs in every stat. The Atk EVs seem completely random and i don't think that Bronzong needs them. Remove 4 EVs from HP, to minimze SR damage. Finally, i believe that Bronzong should run a fully specially defensive spread, namely 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD with a Sassy nature, because it is mainly trying to tank special attacks. However a physically defensive spread surely deserves an AC mention so that Bronzong can handle better pokes such as Garchomp and Dragonite.
  6. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Banned deucer.

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    Where the hell is Protect on set 1? Protect should always get mention on a wall lacking reliable recovery. It allows it to waste a turn and stall even longer.
  7. shrang

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    No. I am very pleased that we're not putting Protect on every single Pokemon we set our eyes on. Bronzong has enough 4MSS as it is, it doesn't need Protect cluttering up its already dear moveslots.
  8. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed 90% of you people are whiny little children.
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    I heartily agree with Shrang's sentiments (I mean damn put protect on something that actually NEEDS it).

    As for the analysis in its entirety, Hidden Power Ice needs more emphasis over other move options, and the Dual Screen set requires some testing, since it seems too slow for offensive teams.
  9. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
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    Don't like OTR Zong atm. Sure, it was cool in Gen 4, but atm it has to deal with Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc etc. It suffers from heavy competition from OTR Reuniclus (which imo is more threatening). I encourage other QC members to weigh in on this particular set here, but when I playtested it it was sub par, and I have since had better success with other OTR sweepers such as Reuniclus and Victini.

    Don't mention CB in OO, I just don't even think its good enough to even be there. I'd prolly consider mentioning Skill Swap, which I tested for lols to get up SR vs Xatu Sun teams. Sure, its shit vs everything else, but thats why im suggesting OO. Its not something I am going to push heavily tho.

    Mention Ferro / Skarm / Rotom-W in checks + Counters since by and large they don't really care about what Zong does, and can do whatever they feel like with the free switch.
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
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    *sigh*...Lots of work.

    Anyways, HP Ice got a lot of emphasis, I added a few more counters, and put Defensive Trick Room EVs in AC (I checked the archives and they said scrap Defensive Trick Room). And also did much more.

    Anyways, about OTR Zong, I'd still say it is somewhat effective. Bronzong has a mighty Gyro Ball and such, and okay coverage. And unlike other OTR's, it has Steel typing which is neat to set up even more. Anyways, even then I'm not exactly sure.

    And...not sure about that EV spread for the tank set. I still do feel as though Zong needs a little bit of extra offensive prowess.
  11. ginganinja

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    To be clear I am not approving this until OTR Zong is gone or until someone can convince me its worth keeping (which will be difficult since iv talked to a large number of good players which claim its shit).
  12. Lavos Spawn

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    I also will not qc until otr set is removed. It was great in dpp, not anymore. Also dual screens is really sketch in this meta...hell, magnezone actually does the job better because of its ability and access to volt switch. Not worth a set imo. The choice band trick set definitely deserves at least an ac mention, since it frustrates momentum based teams to no end. A specs set is also worth mentioning, since stab +1 psychic is not too shabby and no physical attacker enjoys choice specs. Also ruins walls like ferrothorn and forretress that would otherwise set up all over zong.

    In summary: remove otr, put dual screens in ac, talk about choices trick zong in ac.
  13. Pocket

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    OTR is actually legitimate - sure we have Reuniclus now, but not all teams can afford to fit Reuniclus, whereas Bronzong is much easier to add, due to its significant resistances. Not to mention TR + Explosion is a nice set-up for other slow TR abusers. It's a keeper for me.
  14. Lavos Spawn

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    The explosion nerf is what ruins the set for me. In dpp there was never a problem for me using this set, it's still one of my favorite sets for the tier. The draw was that, even if once you set up tr your zong couldn't do crap, you could just blow up and kill something, then bring in your bandtar for some heavy sweepage. Two problems: 1) explosion is now too weak to kill a lot of common zong checks, and 2) common partners to otr zong (bandtar!) are now easily checked by extremely common priority abuse 'mons, regardless of whether or not tr is up. Think breloom, scizor, etc. The set has become very ineffective overall because of changes in the way we view the ou tier over the last two years. Otr zong is far past its prime and does not deserve a set for this analysis.
  15. Pocket

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    We have more than enough beneficiaries of TR in BW2, not just CBTar now. Explosion nerf isn't a big deal - it still puts a dent as it safely switches in another heavy hitter without getting damaged / wasting a TR turn. Explosion still hits hard with Normal Gem anyways. The speed meta of BW2 only made this an even more potent set.
  16. Chou Toshio

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    On the support set, Toxic should really be slashed on Earthquake (or maybe even Gyro Ball), but definitely not slash with HP Ice. All Bronzong should have HP Ice.

    Yes, Magnezone can be annoying, but concern for Magnezone is no where near the significance of HP Ice.

    HP Ice is like Bronzong's best move. What makes Bronzong viable in OU is the ability to check very key threats of the metagame-- almost all of which are weak to HP Ice. Do you want a Bronzong who can be stalled out by Substitute Dragonite? Do you want a Bronzong that can't consistently beat Landorus and Gliscor? Bronzong without HP Ice is just not really viable in OU. I would even go as far as to say that HP Ice is more important than Gyro Ball. Even without Gyro Ball, Bronzong with Toxic + HP Ice comes on top against Mamoswine and Latios no problem. Bronzong without HP Ice just can't reliably check so many threats it's supposed to check.

    HP Ice is Bronzong's best move.


    From my own experience, I'd even say that Toxic > Earthquake, because so many bulky water types just stay in, assuming they can beat Bronzong. I mean yes, they can and will-- but they have no chance of OHKO'ing Bronzong, where as getting Poisoned totally shuts them down. Politoed, Gastrodon, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar all think they're hot shit staying in on Bronzong, only to eat a game-changing Toxic. Meanwhile, Magnezone is easy enough to dodge around with prediction, and Heatran just isn't a very threatening Pokemon in the current meta. Neither of these Pokes can set up anything particularly dangerous, where as getting in a Toxic on a bulky water type can totally change a game.

    I actually run Rain Dance / Toxic / HP Ice / SR, and I have rarely had issues with having no EQ or Gyro Ball. Speaking of which, Rain Dance should get an OO mention because it's so easy to set up with Bronzong, and can be so clinch. Especially on teams abusing Kingdra. Unlike Pokemon like Scizor and Metagross, Bronzong actually has the Special Defense to survive rain boosted water attacks too.


    edit: On another note, I'd definitely keep the TR set, it can make seriously big plays. TR + Explosion (even with the nerf) can change a game
  17. yee

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    A couple of important things, I'd like to see 0 Spe IVs on the SR set, it does significantly more for Gyro Ball than the extra 6 BP on Hidden Power Ice in my experience. Granted, this is an extra 2% damage increase in everyday calcs, but with Bronzong HP Ice is weak enough to never OHKO anything while by far strong enough to 2HKO anything relevant. It's also mostly only used these days for things using EdgeQuake coverage where Bronzong could have 50 base SpA and get the job done.

    I'd also like to see Protect (sorry Shrang) mentioned in OO, with emphasis that it is only there for Toxic stalling. Toxic-Protect Zong is really good at being an annoying, fat, immovable object, especially in Sandstorm. Mention that EQ's coverage is too vital for Heatran and Magnezone to give up so you'll end up replacing SR if you use Protect, obviously changing the way it's played.

    From looks of things the other two sets are getting removed so the only major thing left to discuss is EV spreads for the Tank. Once it's sorted out you have my approval.
  18. Chou Toshio

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    I'd be very surprised if 2 Speed reduced the power of Bronzong's Gyro Ball to a degree that was more critical than 6 points on HP Ice. The power difference between 70 and 64 base power moves is pretty significant-- it's the difference between Hidden Powers seeing play, and Ice/Fire/Thunder Fang attacks not.

    As I mentioned in my post, HP Ice is Bronzong's most useful attack to cover the threats it's supposed to check, while the value of Gyro Ball's coverage is pretty ambiguous on the support sets.
  19. shrang

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    I never have qualms about having Protect in OO. You know that.
  20. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
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    Show me the calcs where 2 less points of speed for gyro ball equals an ohko / 2hko that would otherwise not be achieved with the 2 extra speed points. Until then I'll stick with 2 speed ivs, since hp ice is zong's best attack by far and it needs as much power as it can get to score crucial kills on a lot of things, including weakened landorus and gliscor. The 6 point base power difference is probably more relevant than the 2 point speed difference on gyro ball that almost never affects base power anyways.
  21. yee

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    It's not about specific calcs, I've never had it matter how hard it hits Lando / Glisc and I have wanted to be able to run less attack EVs. I'll take 2% extra damage every time I use Gyro Ball over about 4% extra on every HP Ice because of this.
  22. deimos

    deimos

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    How did you get that 2%? Those 2 Speed points won't necessarily change Gyro Ball's power at all, since Bronzong's Speed is already so low.
  23. yee

    yee
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    I assumed it was obvious I was referring to the damage output on the relevant calcs you would play with. Obviously it does change the power output when you get that- for a more intuitive understanding of how it actually does make a difference play with Forretress and Ferrothorn. You'll notice Forry isn't really nearly slow enough for a satisfactory Gyro Ball a lot of the time while Ferrothorn is usually the opposite. Bronzong is closer to Forry than Ferro, you can play with calcs too if you want to see what I mean.
  24. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest all hail Greninja
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    As for the OTR Set. I've tried it and it's proved itself to be pretty decent. With Macho Brace and Gyro Ball it takes down numerous of the speedy threats in this meta, such as Terrakion, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, etc. Explosion is still alright, and there are things that can take advantage of TR if Zong goes down. Again, leaning towards keeping it for now unless anyone has objections.

    Oh wait, I mentioned Genesect in the analysis. And it got banned. Must.Remove.

    I really don't think the Speed IV's for the Tank set should be changed. There isn't a big difference in Gyro Ball's power anyways, and HP Ice needs a Base Power not lower than 60.

    I am iffy on Dual Screens set right now.
  25. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    The 2 Speed actually does make a noticeable difference in Gyro Ball's damage output. Against most of the faster Pokemon, you get ~4 extra base power on Gyro Ball, which isn't nothing.

    However, I'd say specific calcs are important to justify Gyro Ball, because I'm tempted to say it is a more situational attack than HP Ice. So many Pokemon in OU resist Steel, or are just plain slow that there really are very few relevant targets. The only targets you are likely to try to counter with Bronzong, who are prone to Gyro Ball are Kyurem-B, Latios, and Tornadus-T. Honestly, I'd rather Toxic against Tornadus-T and Latios because of their possible chance to just recover damage off. Kyurem-B is a tricky one since Gyro Ball is really the only thing that can touch it, but I could see it getting stalled out by Sub-Roost pretty easily (not in just one encounter obviously). Don't even try to get around Sub-Roost Kyurem (which has Pressure).

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