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BW2 Doubles Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Laga
- Start date
Oh good god, Jirachi's annoying level has been amped up to 11.
i agree with thundurus-i being s rank, but meta and thund-t should stay where they are imo. thund-t is simply outclassed by thund-i but can still be pretty useful with its super strong thunderbolt and hidden power flying as well as volt absorb providing it with switch in opportunities. slowking>slowbro because of intimidate and other factors that naturally limit physical attackers which makes the extra special defense more worthwhile.
i know metagross isn't s rank, but the only reason i can think of atm is that it isn't as easy to fit on a team or as versatile as say cresselia.
i know metagross isn't s rank, but the only reason i can think of atm is that it isn't as easy to fit on a team or as versatile as say cresselia.
Thundurus would easily be S Rank but it's very predictable. If you aren't running a fast set with Taunt/TWave/Thunder(bolt)/HP Ice(Flying, Fire, Grass), then you're running a slower, much bulkier set with the same move set or very similar.
I could see arguing it for S Rank purely due to its amazing ability to splash onto any team ever and do its job with Prankster TWave, however, one of the caveats for S Rank is the ability to run a wide variety of sets and/or fill a large variety of roles easily. It's lack of variety might hurt it a bit there.
Jirachi will probably see a huge spike in usage before eventually petering back down, but I could see it going to at least A rank due to Follow Me support with great typing, great bulk, and still retaining its annoying FlinchHax set with a recovery option.
I'll post more relevant thing ms tomorrow. I'm tired now.
I could see arguing it for S Rank purely due to its amazing ability to splash onto any team ever and do its job with Prankster TWave, however, one of the caveats for S Rank is the ability to run a wide variety of sets and/or fill a large variety of roles easily. It's lack of variety might hurt it a bit there.
Jirachi will probably see a huge spike in usage before eventually petering back down, but I could see it going to at least A rank due to Follow Me support with great typing, great bulk, and still retaining its annoying FlinchHax set with a recovery option.
I'll post more relevant thing ms tomorrow. I'm tired now.
Jirachi will definitely be stronk, but not moving it up to A until I see that FM is released. Also, blank, Thundurus-I being bulky vs being attacking is a huge difference; even though it's almost the same moveset, it is still 2 completely different ways that you should be trying to beat it. I personally think I agree for Thundurus-I to go to S rank, simply because of the following reasons:
1) wherever it loses on versatility in movesets, it's movesets do a versatile job (a bit similar to Hitmontop). Not only does it provide extremely useful Prankster T-Wave and potential Taunt, but it also hit's bloody hard with it's strong semi-BoltBeam coverage.
2) The bulky set is too much of a bitch to take down
3) I really feel like using physical Thundurus-I with Defiant right now lol
But yeah, I think the 2 reasons are enough to justify Thundurus-I for S rank.
Now about Metagross, I doubt that it really would fit S rank, simply because it has only one viable set. The Item could of course mean a lot, and with it's bulky attacking immune to intimidateness is really good, but it's not as slap-on as Cress, Hitmontop or Thundurus-I.
1) wherever it loses on versatility in movesets, it's movesets do a versatile job (a bit similar to Hitmontop). Not only does it provide extremely useful Prankster T-Wave and potential Taunt, but it also hit's bloody hard with it's strong semi-BoltBeam coverage.
2) The bulky set is too much of a bitch to take down
3) I really feel like using physical Thundurus-I with Defiant right now lol
But yeah, I think the 2 reasons are enough to justify Thundurus-I for S rank.
Now about Metagross, I doubt that it really would fit S rank, simply because it has only one viable set. The Item could of course mean a lot, and with it's bulky attacking immune to intimidateness is really good, but it's not as slap-on as Cress, Hitmontop or Thundurus-I.
All I'm saying is that Thundurus really doesn't have a lot of sets to run, although the core sets it can run are stupid powerful, and you should be running some kind of Thundurus counter on your team, or at least a Lum Berry somewhere.
I'll support S Rank if it gets a few more For Arguments.
I'll support S Rank if it gets a few more For Arguments.
I'm against Thundy for S Rank, its stellar and awesome, but it has Rock and Ice weakness, both of which are common, and it relies on T-wave a lot, making Ground types a challenge to get around, even with HP Ice. It fits very nicely in A, some flaws that give it trouble, but its excellent apart from them.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
please, i don't see how we can keep thund-i in A rank
ok, so it can't run multiple sets, but that isn't what "perform multiple roles" means. Thundurus-I is both a strong special attacker and a great supporter, with prankster taunt/twave/swagger guaranteed to make your opponent commit suicide and thunderbolt/hidden power/focus blast (if ur dum) putting on offensive pressure. You cannot beat it without having at least one important pokemon on your team crippled; probably more though. It creates free turns for your partner with FPs/confusion self-hits/taunt failures/being targetted because if you don't knock it out early it's going to screw up your whole team. It's also a great clutch Pokemon since it can either para something off of very low percents due to its high speed and prankster, or at the very least turn a lost game into a coinflip with its Swaggers. It has minimal flaws considering its immense utility and should be S rank.
Alright time for yet another update; 1) moving Thundurus-I up to S rank for the reasons stated above (sorry Nollan ;x) and the big one
2) We started doing write-ups now that
are back in business. Therefore, I will update this thread with a couple of them in a minute so as to allow people new to doubles understand the viability of things and why they are in which tier :)
Edit: 3) also moved Landorus-I to A rank, I thought it would be a genie-ous idea.
Edit 2: shit i forgot this; go to #doubles on irc if you want to do a write-up; if Nollan, blank, Audiosurfer or me (Laga) are online, they should be able to redirect you to the page where we do the write ups.
2) We started doing write-ups now that
these tags
Edit: 3) also moved Landorus-I to A rank, I thought it would be a genie-ous idea.
Edit 2: shit i forgot this; go to #doubles on irc if you want to do a write-up; if Nollan, blank, Audiosurfer or me (Laga) are online, they should be able to redirect you to the page where we do the write ups.
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Running your own Thundy might help that bud.
I honestly don't think Thundurus is an S rank Pokemon. While it is indeed very good, when I look at things like Hitmontop and Cresselia, I don't think of Thundurus and consider them on the same level. When you look at its stats, it's not frail, but it's not that bulky either. While it can live through some more powerful hits, it often won't be dodging a 2HKO, even with an SDef set. While Prankster T-Waves can definitely mess up faster threats, there are plenty of slower mons that don't mind a paralysis and can deal heavy damage to Thundurus (Ttar for one). There are also things like Excadrill that are immune to paralysis and will mess up Thundurus. Also, if Thundurus is such a huge problem, you can simply run a Lum Berry on a faster mon. You'll waste the turn of T-Wave and then either damage it hard or outright KO it. While it can be an offensive threat, it then sacrifices its bulk, and if it opts to be bulkier it loses out on being as offensively threatening. The whole thing about full paras and confusion hax isn't much of an argument imo (that'd be like saying x pokemon could bypass a check if it gets a crit) and aren't even things unique to Thundurus since anything with T-Wave or Swagger could do the same thing. But yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I simply don't think it's at the level of things like Tyranitar, Cresselia and Hitmontop in terms of its power, versatility and ability to support the team.
How 'bout Politoed?
From my view, if Thundurus isn't S Rank, I really don't see Politoed as S Rank. I mean, Rain support is nice, but other Prankstermons can provide it, and Politoed, apart from Drizzle, is pretty ineffective. I really feel S Rank does not fit it because A) It cannot fulfill multiple roles, the only reason you would ever use it is Rain, B) it has a lot of flaws, particularly lacking stats and a lack of options, and C) it lacks spread moves, Surf being pretty unreliable without compounding weaknesses a lot, and Icy Wind being inferior to Ice Beam in most cases. I feel Politoed fits more into A Rank, since it is unique due to Drizzle, but has a lot of flaws. Tyranitar, from my view, is S Rank because it can provide weather support AND has a lot of options, has Dark typing (great for Trick Room setters and Cress), and has a great spread move in Rock Slide (and Earthquake if you feel inclined to run that for some reason).
Thundurus I have more or less settled borderline on (I seem to have become Switzerland in these discussions now, pretty odd, I'm usually strongly for one side), it is the only pokemon that has priority Thunder Wave and good enough bulk to abuse it. It can additionally support the team with Taunt, Rain Dance, and Swagger (the last is going to be more of a coin flip unless you are using it for the Swagger + Lum combo). It even retains some offensive presense with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power. However, it suffers from Ice and Rock weakness, the inability to accomplish much against Ground 'mons, especially if it drops Hidden Power, and as Audio said, slower 'mons aren't going to mind much, apart from hax. I will disagree with the part about saying parahax is like a crit; parahax is 1) more likely and 2) an addition hax factor that Thundurus can throw in at will. Still, we probably shouldn't be judging viability based on how much hax something can theoretically produce. I'm going for leaving Thundurus at A, since I really haven't seen any legitimate, all out reasons it should be moved up.
Ok that I disagree with. Politoed should definitely still stay S rank. Not only is manual Rain only last 5 turns as opposed to the whole battle (8 if you have Damp Rock which means you have to forfeit another item) it doesn't get set up as easily as simply switching in a Drizzle user. When you factor in times you might need to attack or support moves you're using within those turns, you'll find that those turns can go faster than one might think. Also, I think you're over exaggerating Politoed's flaws. It definitely does not simply do nothing apart from Rain. Drizzle alone is enough for S Rank in my mind, seeing how powerful Rain teams are and how many advantages Rain support can give a team, but it has a nice support movepool with things such as Encore, Helping Hand and Icy Wind. If that wasn't enough, it can still retain good offensive presence with either a Choice Specs set or an offensive Water Gem set. I don't see why a lack of spread moves is such a big deal when it's not hard to build around Surf, Hydro Pump in the rain hits like a truck on an offensive set, and Scald is Scald (aka being a pain to switch into because of the burn chance). While its stats aren't anything to brag about, 95/75/100 defenses aren't shabby and 90 Special Attack goes a lot farther when your STAB is essentially boosted a second time because of the rain you bring. Water is also a good typing, offensively and defensively. Furthermore, Politoed is able to threaten 3/4 of the other weather summoners (can threaten Abomasnow too if you chose to run Focus Blast but that's generally a very risky option) so it will be giving you an edge in the weather war when you're throwing around Rain boosted attacks and your opponent has to respond somehow.
Yeah, I suppose those are pretty good points, I just feel Politoed is fairly flawed and a bit much for S Rank. Rain is great, Politoed is... not as great, probably decent at best. My view is that it does not have S Rank's definition of "few to no flaws". Politoed has a lot of flaws. But in the category of "nothing other than Drizzle", I stated than pretty poorly. I was trying to aim at the fact that it cannot really perform any other roles. It relies on its weather role a lot, unlike Tyranitar, for example, it is going to be very lacking offensively outside of Rain. I just simply don't view it as being on the same level of those other three S Rank pokemon, each of them is stellar, hard to deal with, and can be chosen on a team for a variety of reasons. I also disagree with Water being a good offensive typing, as what makes Politoed's STAB attacks good is really the Rain boost, not Water's coverage. Additionally, from my experience, Politoed can only threaten Ninetales if Rain is up and not Sun, as since most Sun teams also have manual set-up methods, this is going to be pretty hard. Drizzle is obviously the best way to (and the only way you should) set Rain, and I was wrong to view Rain Dance as a viable alternative option. The question in my head is "Is anyone really going to pick Politoed for a reason outside of setting Rain?". From my experience, you aren't going to think "hrm.... I need a good Fire resist (or Icy Wind spammer), how about Politoed?" You are almost always (if not always) going to choose Politoed with the sole intention of setting Rain. That is really what I was aiming at by roles it fulfills. In terms of other things, there is usually going to be something better. In Tyranitar's case, you will often choose it without the intention of Sand. You might choose it because you need something to hit Cresselia, or you need something that can tank attacks, or maybe something to help defeat Trick Room setters in general. I might just be overdoing things by looking at them without weather (or comparing them in general), by from that viewpoint, Tyranitar obviously has something more, and this makes me think Politoed may be more A Rank than S Rank. Don't get me wrong, Politoed is important, since it is the only holder of Drizzle, but I really feel outside of Drizzle, it lacks any other prized roles, and this better fits A Rank's definition:
S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the Doubles metagame. The pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current Doubles metagame. The pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank.The flaws that the pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support.
The "execute on extremely well" part is where I'm coming from. Politoed executes one role extremely well, but I'm not so sure about "multiple roles". It might have them, but it definitely does not perform them to tremendous effect. This is why I think our favorite frog should be A Rank.
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Yeah but the entire reason why it is much better than all other Thunder Wave + Taunt pokemon is because of Prankster. In the fast paced metagame of Doubles, Prankster + T-Wave is a godsend due to it's ability to fill 3 roles in 4 moves:
1) completely shit on fast paced teams like Tailwind or DrizzleSwim spam teams with Prankster Thunder Wave. This also pressures them into switching out fearing death from one of your hard hitters, so you can paralyze more things n_n
2) completely shuts down Trick Room or the rare stall with Prankster Taunt.
3) actually does good damage with semi BoltBeam and 125 base SpA. It also sits at a near perfect speed tier of 111 allowing it to outspeed all the "fast" pokemon that sit from 100 to 110 base speed. Let me give you a list; Manaphy, Jirachi, Salamence, Zapdos, Garchomp, Infernape, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Gengar i guess.
These are all pokemon that you use thinking they will be faster than most things, and getting the jump over all of these is a fantastic trait.
I think it is S rank for filling 3 awesome roles with a single set.
Rhyperior for B-rank (possibly A). STAB edgequake spread moves coming off 140 base attack as well as megahorn for pokes like cresselia... This is the poster boy (maybe discounting ttar) of sandroom and is incrediby dangerous. also, its bulk is absolutely mad with the solid rock and the sandstorm boost, it can even take a surf or 2. Honestly can't work out why it's C right now.
Yeah, Rhyperior is not taking 2 Surfs or even one without Passho Berry, even in Sandstorm. I think Rhyperior is lingering in C because of its horrid weaknesses and reliance on Trick Room. When you consider almost everything can hit Rhyperior super effectively (aside from something like mono Togekiss), his bulk is severely undermined as a result, even with Solid Rock. I won't deny its crazy power and spread moves, but it kinda needs a lot to work with right now.