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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    In my opinion, Chandelure is really good. The only thing that holds it back is it's nasty weakness to Stealth Rock... Wich it's a shame, because it could be one of the top spinblockers on OU. I hope that Shadow Tag Chandelure gets released in future, because that ability would make that SR weakness not matter when you can trap and kill many things. Even so, Rapid Spin would still be recommended, of course.

    Also, a super-effective Psychic does as much damage as a neutral Fire Blast, and does less under sun. So, Psychic would only stand-up against Tentacruel.
  2. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    I'm really finding it weird that no one has mentioned the most common offensive spinblocker, Gengar. It walks all over Donphan, can disable Scald and proceed to demolish Tentacruel, laughs at Forretress, and even Starmie will lose if you decide to run a Choice Scarf on Gengar. Honestly for your Deoxys-D HO teams you should be using Gengar unless you want your hazards gone. Gengar is the best offensive spinblocker, at least until the advent of ST Chandelure (PLEASE GAMEFREAK!!!!!!!).
  3. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    In what metagame do you play where tentacruel isn't in the rain, and tentacruel doesn't spam protect to quickly regain it's health. I ran tentacreul for months and never saw a Gengar break through it without a crit or spD drop.
  4. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

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    Idk, chandelure has that sexy 145 base special attack and STAB overheat/fire blast.

    At least for sun teams I think chandelure works better as a spinblocker than gengar.

    Also I don't see how gengar is spin blocking tentacruel, if anything tentacruel in rain is one of the few counters to gengar >.>
  5. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Only problem with Gengar's that it either beats all spinners and loses to Starmie, or runs a Choice Scarf and beats Starmie but then loses to almost everything else. Now would be a great time to look at usage stats:

    | 10 | Starmie | 61777 | 11.484% |
    | 12 | Forretress | 58532 | 10.880% |
    | 21 | Tentacruel | 43339 | 8.056% |
    | 38 | Donphan | 32641 | 6.068% |

    Well, that doesn't help much. Starmie is the most common spinner, but not by much. Forretress is right up there along with Tentacruel, and Donphan lurks near the bottom of OU as it has always done. I would conclude that it's pretty much a toss-up; choose whatever Gengar your team likes best. Still, if you're only using Gengar to spinblock, you're honestly better off going with Jellicent, who beats every single OU spinner. And please, for all that is holy's sake, do not use Chandelure to spinblock. I think I've explained that one enough already.
  6. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    The thing is that, to Chandelure become a really great spinblocker, it needs it's DW Ability Shadow Tag being released. It facilitates it's work as a spinblocker since it can trap and kill the most common spinners. Chandelure would still have a hard time with Tentacruel, I think.
  7. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

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    Well, Jellicent does actually lose to thunder life orb starmie.

    And again, while Chandelure can't switch in on STAB EQ/Surf (it can switch into surf in sun at least once), it OHKOs all the spinners besides tentacruel who it 2HKO's (and tentacruel can only 2HKO back... or 3HKO in sun)
  8. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    If your Starmie is holding a life orb, its basically killing itself, 2 or 3 rapid spins + hazard damage + other incoming damage makes a dead starmie.
  9. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone

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    Except for the fact that starmie has recover
    Seriously rapid spin/recover/surf/thunder starmie works really well in rain as a dedicated spinner.
  10. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    yea it works really well spinning away hazards against ferrothorn setting them up every turn /sarcasm.

    imo sub toxic tentacruel is the best spinner. It can hold its own vs gengar, it beats jellicent 1v1 and those are the only real spin blockers in ou.
  11. kalamadude

    kalamadude

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    I run a full stall team with Jellicent as my blocker (up at about ~1850 on PS).

    Forretress is lol, gets Taunted and then Will-O-Wisp'd. Volt Switch doesn't do more than 25-30% (I don't remember exactly).

    Donphan gets WoW'd as well.

    I haven't seen Cloyster spin in ages (but I do frequently see them try to Shell Smash against Jelli only to get WoW'd. Really? Even if WoW missed, Rock Blast isn't an OHKO so I'll just get it next turn and your "sweeper" is useless...).

    The odd Hitmotop is similarly WoW'd.

    Starmie can be scary if it's predicts the switch (that's why I go to Ttar to Pursuit it instead).

    But Tentacruel is a gigantic asshole. SubToxic in the rain is nigh unbeatable, it outspeeds Jelli's Taunt so if it carries Toxic you're fucked. Thank god I have Amoonguss to immediately absorb any attempts to set up, but any time the words "The foe's Tentacruel used Toxic" show up, I groan. "The foe's Tentacruel used Substitute" is a million times worse.
  12. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    This is close to beating Tenta as a spinner on Rainstall, and is an amazing Spinner on every team if you don't do something stupid.

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 44 SAtk / 4 SDef / 208 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Reflect Type
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover

    RT saves you vs Ferro, CBTar, most regular Tars w/o Superpower, Scizor, some Ninetales, the list goes on. EVs are for Terrakion (you won't OHKO with Scald though) and Ape, Spins obviously and Scald is to get burns on Bulky Waters. Recover means that it flat out will not die and can spin for practically the entire game since you are immune to status, can use a fast Recover, AND now can take on some popular Spikers AND it's immune to most Pursuits bar Weavile and Scarftar and Scarfsciz (which, if you stay in vs. them, you have a chance to live too because Pursuit doesn't OHKO).

    Use this set before anyone else because atm noone really prepares for it and it is absolutely fantastic.
  13. Deku La Situacion

    Deku La Situacion

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    Well. I start a team ideally for stop Weathers starting with Tyranitar and Latias. This core is a dificult job actually for the sunny days.Obliously genesect, scizor, and other dragon-type pokemons own this core, but here come's the dificulty. Wich is the adecuate pokemon for cover this core, and guarantee the a continuation of the team in this metagame so offensive.
    I wait a nice reply. Thanks
  14. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    porii sames, that reflect type starmie is BALLSY. as for tentacruel, one of the best spinner cruel sets i have seen, albeit much more aggressive than the sub toxic variants, is one that alphatron posted somewhere. it was actually an acid spray cruel. the EVs i forget, but the moveset was rapid spin / acid spray / hydro pump / ice beam or giga drain. the choice between ice beam and giga drain is basically between beating dragons and bulky grasses, or bulky waters.

    i think it's often worth it right now to let go of cruel's usual tspike slot to get a lot more moveslot room in there. subtoxic is a defensive way to make use of that slot, but acid spray sets can be a great way to use it offensively. even with minimal or no investment, an acid spray on the switch can make a lot of things suffer, especially if your hydro pump is backed by rain (although cruel already lures in steel types because of its tendency to abuse toxic, and running a poison-type attack does NOT help in the slightest). iirc alphatron's original spread could 2hko a keldeo with giga drain after spraying on the switch, taking into account that the keldeo might use CM along the way. normally keldeo would just start boosting up so you'd lose unless you were carrying toxic (even then you might be facing subcm), but with acid spray you can wipe those spdef boosts away faster than keldeo can accumulate them and swiftly force it out.

    anyway i managed to find the original set here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4327377#post4327377 it's quite cool if you're looking for an offensive cruel without having to go all-out on the EVs and throw away cruel's bulk, since acid spray really lets you hurt things and wards off any offensive mons who think they can use you as setup bait.
  15. Joel

    Joel

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    Not trying to be a buzz kill torwards Alphatron, but why is it that Acid Spray is only just now becoming viable for Tentacruel when I was actually getting praises for the ideal a year and a half ago, as seen here.

    My set is different from his, but I knew this worked back in Feb. 2011, and most people I told about it agreed with me.
  16. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    my apologies then. i picked it up from being mentioned in that thread, and acid spray is the kind of move that's never gonna get spotlight feature on any pokemon, so i would imagine alphatron thought he was the first to stumble upon this idea as well. it's just a case of multiple people finding the same thing independently =P
  17. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Tried this on Showdown and it's fantastic. Absolutely OU material, no doubt. Reflect Type saves Starmie's ass against so many common switch-ins, the most important being Ferrothorn, but also Tyranitar and Scizor. Being able to take about 8% from Ferrothorn's Power Whip, then fish for burns with Scald is a really great thing to be able to do. In my opinion I'd bump the Speed EVs up to 216 Speed, which allows you to outspeed Latios/Latias/Gengar for a quick attack if you ever find yourself in that scenario. 8 EVs from HP to Speed doesn't really sacrifice much. Just a thought. I hope people don't catch onto this set, because I'm loving the surprise factor.
  18. Joel

    Joel

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    No need to aplogize. Alpha's set isn't like mine outside of the use of Acid Spray. I am interested in testing his set out for myself sometime in the near future. My variant was meant as a possible attacking lead, or late game sweeper to deal with special walls.
  19. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

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    but it can't poison gengar and since it runs only one attacking move if gengar disables it tentacruel is basically just sitting there being useless.
  20. VaporeonIce

    VaporeonIce

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    This is where the point about Protect comes in; since Gengar outspeeds Tentacruel, Gengar goes first, and Tentacruel uses Scald afterward. Then, on the next turn, Tentacruel uses Protect, which blocks Disable. If Gengar tries to use Disable again on the next turn, Protect will be disabled, not Scald.
  21. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Protect doesn't help you any, though. Think of it this way: if you run standard Protect Tentacruel, then you lose to Jellicent, whereas if you run SubToxic, you lose to SubDisable Gengar. Either way, there's a spinblocker you can't beat. I propose the middle ground, a Protect + Toxic Tentacruel that I actually use on my balanced rain team for Showdown's ladder. The suggested set is below:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Spd / 244 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Protect
    - Scald
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic

    Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Mamoswine and Dragonite, Jolly Breloom, and other things of that nature. Give this set a shot if you're tired of getting hard walled by a certain spinblocker.
  22. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

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    okay, i don't know if it's been talked about much, but sheer force landorus is a boss. it's a beautiful answer to those nasty sun teams that are running around as long as you can get off that single rock polish (not hard as long as you come in on something that's scared of landorus like ninetales)...i saw somebody had suggested psychic for it (the on-site analysis suggests focus blast), and it really works against stuff like venusaur and victreebell...and it nails other stuff too, like gengar.
    i use him with stoutland in sand. open holes with lando, clean up what's left with the doggie. every time i use stoutland on a team, i remember why i started to love that shaggy mutt in the first place: he really is a terror in the sand.
  23. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    ^ i have seen alexwolf mentioning the effectiveness of that set and it has really intrigued me. iirc it's sheer force @ LO, rock polish / earth power / psychic / hp ice?

    i admit that when i first saw the set i was really unimpressed and thought it was a little gimmicky (sorry but whenever a mon normally goes all-out physical, i have difficulty putting faith in a special set), but right now with all the lavos sun teams going around, i can understand where the niche is coming from. that 101 speed is plenty at +2 and more importantly you cannot be trapped or revenged by dugtrio (!!), where as a lot of sun's most common mons are setup bait for your rock polish. it looks like such a small niche until you realize that most other +2 speed boosters lack the combination of a) precise super effective coverage to hit many sun mons hard (particularly the combination of a strong ground move to hit most sun mons accurately, plus psychic for venusaur), b) the ability to set up on lots of sun mons (there are lots of steel rock polishers like genesect but they can't safely stare down fire attacks), and c) the ability to not be revenged by even a sashed dugtrio (which is where terrakion can fail)
  24. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Rock Polish Landorus is excellent and underrated (for one, it wrecks my Sun team). I know a couple prominent players use it, including Taylor and myzozoa, and I've given it a try. I must say, it did not disappoint. One RP turns Sheer Force Landorus from a big threat to a HUGE threat, able to OHKO about 2/3rds of the metagame after rocks. I believe the accepted set is max SAtk, max Speed, Life Orb, RP - Earth Power - Hidden Power [Ice] - Psychic/Focus Blast? I use RP/EP/Ice/FB, but Psychic has its merits, namely Venusaur. Still, I think Focus Blast is more useful overall, or else Landorus loses to Balloon Heatran and other common things. Venusaur isn't all that common compared to Tran, who I believe is #5 in usage right now. Alternatively, Venusaur barely cracks the top 30.
  25. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

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    Speaking of which, Lavos, I encountered somebody using your team on PS! and Lando ran through it like a steamroller. I just brought him in on Xatu, he switched Xatu out (probably expected stone edge) and then it was pretty much over. I prefer psychic atm for venusaur, but if heatran is really troubling me i'd considering subbing in focus blast. i like knowing that i can comfortably nail most fighting types as well...and gengar...

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