BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Speaking of which, Lavos, I encountered somebody using your team on PS! and Lando ran through it like a steamroller. I just brought him in on Xatu, he switched Xatu out (probably expected stone edge) and then it was pretty much over. I prefer psychic atm for venusaur, but if heatran is really troubling me i'd considering subbing in focus blast. i like knowing that i can comfortably nail most fighting types as well...and gengar...
He must have been running Naive Genesect, otherwise Earth Power wouldn't OHKO. Oh well. I will freely admit my team is extremely weak to Rock Polish Landorus. I try to get rocks up early and keep Genesect at 100% when I see Landorus in team preview, because the RP set scares me that much, even though it's rather uncommon.
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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Speaking of which, Lavos, I encountered somebody using your team on PS!
there have been a lot of those people... probably gonna have to be more specific lol

but yeah the popularity of previously niche sets has really gone up with sun's rise due to genesect (we have lavos to thank for popularizing it... =P). stuff like flame charge and shed shell heatran that we would have never seen before actually exist now (magma storm heatran also exists and it also hits dugtrio really hard, but that's the kind of thing that a sun team runs AGAINST rain dugtrio, not so much against sun dugtrio. also, magma storm was relevant long before genesect came out). i think RP special landorus is in a similar boat since it plays nicely against sun, which is really getting some love after being (imo) the crappiest weather of bw1.
 

Arcticblast

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Sadly, Landorus has to go full special if it wants to use Sheer Force to the fullest. I tried running mixed ScarfLando (Earth Power, Rock Slide, U-turn, something else) - don't do it. That said, it might be okay to run Sheer Force Rock Slide over Stone Edge outside of Sand...

Also, I've found that Keldeo doesn't always have time to set up Calm Mind before being forced out, and I'm considering an all-out attacker with HP Electric / Icy Wind over CM / HP Ghost. Thoughts?
 
I will freely admit my team is extremely weak to Rock Polish Landorus. I try to get rocks up early and keep Genesect at 100% when I see Landorus in team preview, because the RP set scares me that much, even though it's rather uncommon.
Heh heh I would have to say you posted your RMT quite timely. I first started using RP Sheer Force Landorus when I saw Taylor using it. But lately I've seen quite a bit of Sheer Force Landorus. So much, in fact, that whenever I see a Landorus in the team preview I generally assume it's the Sheer Force set. Needless to say, as the popularity of Sheer Force Landorus goes up, the viability of the infamous Lavos Sun goes down.

Really, as long as you're supporting Landorus properly (and I mean with SR/spikes), the only thing standing in its way really only comes down Lati@s and Gengar (Thundurus and Tornadus maaay be a problem as HP Ice doesn't OHKO them at full health, and Blissey and Chansey are exceptions), but otherwise Landorus has very solid coverage in Earth Power and Focus Blast. Also, for the above reasons, Scarftar makes quite a good sweeping partner with Landorus, as you can easily pull a double switch/switch into any of the aforementioned Pokemons' special moves with a sand boosted Special Defense and go straight for the Pursuit/Crunch/Stone Edge.

I enjoy using Sheer Force Landorus so much that it pains me to say this, but: anyone think Landorus is worthy of a suspect test?
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Also, I've found that Keldeo doesn't always have time to set up Calm Mind before being forced out, and I'm considering an all-out attacker with HP Electric / Icy Wind over CM / HP Ghost. Thoughts?
Do it. I've used a Choice Specs Keldeo on my sandstorm team. And I can guarantee, it doesn't need rain to achieve many 2HKOs or OHKOs, even on things that resist it's attacks. In fact, I love if the opponent uses rain. I can turn the rain against them by spamming Hydro Pump and KOing even the pokémon that resists their attacks. This is easier to do once Tornadus-T is out of way, but you can use Keldeo against them even if you don't have killed Tornadus-T first, as Tornadus-T cannot come directly in Keldeo, otherwise it will be OHKOed by Hydro Pump. Your opponent is forced to lose at least one pokémon to get Tornadus-T securely, or make intelligent switches and foresee when you are going to switch to double switch.

As for Icy Wind, it's not that good. A 2x super-effective Icy Wind is outdamaged by even a resisted rain-boosted Hydro Pump, and many things that are weak to Icy Wind are already felled by Water attacks, even when resisted. The speed drop can sometimes make a difference, however, but I still prefer using Surf as an option to use when I cannot risk Hydro Pump missing.

HP Electric is also a good option. While most people prefer to use HP Ghost, I prefer to use HP Electric. Since my team can already handle Lati@s, HP Electric can be used so that Keldeo can defeat Gyarados and Tentacruel without having to resort to it's STABs. HP Grass is not necessary, unlike most Water-types, as Hydro Pump or Surf OHKOes Quagsire and Swampert anyway, and Gastrodon is felled by Secret Sword. All in all, the choice between HP Ghost or HP Electric solely depends on the rest of your team.

It's a shame that Keldeo's movepool is that shallow (at least it doesn't have to resort to Return like Escavalier), but it's sheer power when equipped with Choice Specs is sufficient to maim many threats.

As a testimony; Keldeo can 2HKO 252 HP/4 SDef Slowbro, can OHKO Scizor, can 2HKO Politoed with either Hydro Pump or HP Electric... If you aren't named Blissey or Chansey, you are not going to survive Hydro Pump, but even Chansey and Blissey die to Secret Sword. Alas, your opponent is forced to play mind games with you if they see Keldeo on team preview.
 

chimpact

fire nation
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Specs Keldeo is definitely a threat. I would be hesitant to run HP ghost though as it does cause your Speed IV to be lowered, allowing all 108's to outspeed. HP Elec is definitely a solid answer to Jellicent though :]. And I'm sure amoongus, celebi, latias, and spdef dragonite would be able to handle it pretty well. Hp Ice shouldn't do too much to them other than Dnite. And locking yourself into a relatively weak Ice move is not the best idea.
 
Specs Keldeo is definitely a threat. I would be hesitant to run HP ghost though as it does cause your Speed IV to be lowered, allowing all 108's to outspeed.
This is probably just the suggested showdown iv spread, PO has timid HP-ghost with 31 speed ivs fine.

For anyone wondering its: 31 / 31 / 30 / 31 / 30 / 31
 
Edith: Ninja'd
Do you mean specs Keldeo, Dark Fallen Angel? lol. Also there is a HP Ghost spread which does not lower your Speed IV, Chimpakt.
 

alkinesthetase

<@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Lavos Spawn said:
Tentacruel
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Spd / 244 Def
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
i just started laddering a bit today to celebrate my potato (thanks again, OU!), and i gotta say this set is really cool. i've never actually been a big fan of substitute (it just doesn't suit the way i like to play... tough to explain?) and sometimes you just can't afford to sit around and try to toxic stall stuff straight up (especially if not on rain, because that means you get no rain dish recovery). that set happens to work nicely if you need to carry toxic on a weatherless tentacruel (and i use a lot of weatherless tentacruel). it makes a great touch for increasing tentacruel's damage-dealing potential as opposed to tspikes, and so far i am really digging it. it's the kind of set that looks like it'd be really obvious but actually is not as obvious as appears.
 
but yeah the popularity of previously niche sets has really gone up with sun's rise due to genesect (we have lavos to thank for popularizing it... =P).
lavos' sun team is a brilliant team, but people are definitely giving it too much credit for shaping the metagame and defining sun offense in BW2, genesect and the sun combo of ninetales and dugtrio was always going to be a great partnership for offensive sun teams to use, and i had seen many people using genesect on sun teams before i ever encountered someone using xatu/genesect/victini in combination, BW2 has brought many new toys for sun to use and i hope that the popularity of lavos team will lead to the metagame shifting against the xatu/victini/genesect/dugtrio core so we can see some more creativity used on sun teams.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Edith: Ninja'd
Do you mean specs Keldeo, Dark Fallen Angel? lol. Also there is a HP Ghost spread which does not lower your Speed IV, Chimpakt.
Lol... I mistook myself, I don't know why I typed "Latios"...

Also, anything bulky that isn't 4x weak to Ice is pretty much capable to tank one HP ice. It's probably not going to survive the second if it's 2x weak, but this gives them time to attack or setup. HP Ice is an option, but many dragons are already felled by a resisted Hydro Pump anyway.
 
Dark Fallen Angel, funnily enough, I use specs keldeo on my sandstorm team as well, but mostly because I want to give keldeo some much-deserved love. I currently run icy wind but I have to admit it is fairly disappointing...it never hits hard enough when I'm forced to use it, and having surf as backup might actually be a good idea. There are plenty of things Keldeo can OHKO with a specs surf, so you only need to go for Hydro Pump when you need to hit at maximum power.
Oh, and another thing...with the popularity of Dugtrio to eliminate weather starters, Hippowdon really deserves more consideration, as unlike Tyranitar, he DGAF about Dugtrio (and can roar away Gothitelle as a last resort).
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Dark Fallen Angel, funnily enough, I use specs keldeo on my sandstorm team as well, but mostly because I want to give keldeo some much-deserved love. I currently run icy wind but I have to admit it is fairly disappointing...it never hits hard enough when I'm forced to use it, and having surf as backup might actually be a good idea. There are plenty of things Keldeo can OHKO with a specs surf, so you only need to go for Hydro Pump when you need to hit at maximum power.
Oh, and another thing...with the popularity of Dugtrio to eliminate weather starters, Hippowdon really deserves more consideration, as unlike Tyranitar, he DGAF about Dugtrio (and can roar away Gothitelle as a last resort).
Do this. I suppose that your team carry Tyranitar, wich is already capable of defeating Latios, and something that can handle Dragon-types as well. Even Hidden Power Ice is a better option if you really want to defeat Dragon-types with Keldeo.

Problem is that Tyranitar is more suited to offensive sandstorm teams than Hippowdon, and even if you are in need of a physical wall, Skarmory and Slowbro generally tend to be better choices. The former also DGAF about Dugtrio, and is even immune to Arena Trap. The latter resists Fighting and Fire attacks and doesn't fear Water-type attacks.
 
Do this. I suppose that your team carry Tyranitar, wich is already capable of defeating Latios, and something that can handle Dragon-types as well. Even Hidden Power Ice is a better option if you really want to defeat Dragon-types with Keldeo.

Problem is that Tyranitar is more suited to offensive sandstorm teams than Hippowdon, and even if you are in need of a physical wall, Skarmory and Slowbro generally tend to be better choices. The former also DGAF about Dugtrio, and is even immune to Arena Trap. The latter resists Fighting and Fire attacks and doesn't fear Water-type attacks.
Dugtrio is usually used in Sun that will roast Skarmory and Chloro sweeper easily handles Slowbro.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Dugtrio is usually used in Sun that will roast Skarmory and Chloro sweeper easily handles Slowbro.
Hippowdon is anyway defeated by Chloro sweepers and even by boosted Fire-type attacks. Slowbro is also a good counter to some Fire-types on a sun team, like Victini and Darmanitan. Slowbro can also take advantage of sun by having Flamethrower or Fire Blast boosted; this lets him at least dent Chloro sweepers on the switch-in.
 
Hippowdon is anyway defeated by Chloro sweepers and even by boosted Fire-type attacks. Slowbro is also a good counter to some Fire-types on a sun team, like Victini and Darmanitan. Slowbro can also take advantage of sun by having Flamethrower or Fire Blast boosted; this lets him at least dent Chloro sweepers on the switch-in.
Only certain variants, Special defensive Hippos can come in take a hit negate boosts(Chlorophyll&Fire moves) with Sand, switch out to a counter/check to Chloro sweeper or Fire type leaving the Sun user having to deal with sand.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Hippowdon is anyway defeated by Chloro sweepers and even by boosted Fire-type attacks. Slowbro is also a good counter to some Fire-types on a sun team, like Victini and Darmanitan. Slowbro can also take advantage of sun by having Flamethrower or Fire Blast boosted; this lets him at least dent Chloro sweepers on the switch-in.

Actually, Spdef hippow hard counters sun. Chloro sweepers? They can't actually ohko him, even with a LO. They CAN force him out, but then they can also force out tyranitar to an extent, since if he takes too much damage it's highly problematic. And as for offensive teams, they need bulky pivots that can deal damage. Hippowdon. Not to mention he sets SR for them ,and can roar out almost any sweeper, so you can switch him in as sacrifice bait that you can't even set up once on. Or you could make him full-on stockpile hippow, to fuck up HO. Not that anyone actually does it anymore, but it's still viable if for just that purpose. What is slowbro even doing to try to beat sun? There's very little he can switch in on to accomplish that fire blastage, ninetales is probably the most prominent candidate but bulky ones can toxic and wait, non-bulky ones rip him apart with energy ball. Since no one carries physical chloro's anymore, skarm can't do much against sun either. At least physical hippowdon can get the weather changed.


I'd also like to bring up a point from way up there, while i'm at it: Subtoxic tentacruel also carries protect to block gengar's disable. That's the POINT. All subdisable gar is doing is running out of HP.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
Spdef hippow hard counters sun.
I'll just quote that little bit, because the rest of your post is based off that false premise. It counters Sun? Really? Here's a little food for thought:

Timid Venusaur: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 56.43% - 66.43% (easy 2HKO)

Modest Venusaur: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 62.14% - 72.86% (easier 2HKO)

Timid Victreebel: 52 SpAtk Life Orb Victreebel Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 56.43% - 66.43% (yep, 2HKO)

Sawsbuck: 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck (+Atk) Horn Leech vs 252 HP/0 Def Hippowdon: 60.71% - 71.43% (what a surprise, a 2HKO!)

Essentially, your Hippowdon gets 1 switch into a Chlorophyll sweeper before it dies. That's not a "hard counter" to Sun, that's an easy win for Sun. And against Sun teams with Xatu, Hippo can't even set up rocks like you claim it's so very good at doing. Even Hippowdon's Ice Fang won't deal 50% to Xatu. Sure, Hippo isn't threatened by Dugtrio. So what? It loses to almost every other member of generic BW2 Sun offense. Hippowdon should not be used for the purpose of beating Sun, period.

I'd also like to bring up a point from way up there, while i'm at it: Subtoxic tentacruel also carries protect to block gengar's disable. That's the POINT. All subdisable gar is doing is running out of HP.
No it doesn't. The set is Scald/Substitute/Toxic/Rapid Spin. If you have Sub, Toxic, AND Protect, then either a) you lose to SubDisable Gar anyways because you don't have Scald to hit it, or b) you can't spin. Either way, Tenta loses.
 
things hippo has over tyranitar:
- not scared of dugtrio (big one these days)
- much better physical bulk and no 4x weakness
- reliable phazing against many common set-up sweepers
- reliable recovery
- STAB Earthquake
- Not ruined by Mach Punch and Bullet Punch like Tyranitar

things tyranitar has over hippowdon
- better overall special bulk
- better attacking power overall
- STAB Pursuit

Yeah, Tyranitar is a better pokemon overall, but that doesn't mean Hippowdon doesn't have his uses, and there are certainly legitimate reasons you might want to use him over TTar. You can even use them both (like on Euthanasia).
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Spdef may counter sun (I said this before other user posted proving the contrary), but running specially defensive sets has its disvantages, like making you more vulnerable to physical attacks, specially Fighting-types and Victini's V-Create, that can 2HKO Hippowdon even outside of sun. Alas, specially defensive sets don't protect you against Water-type attacks from rain teams, you must make a set prepared to counter/check as many teams as possible, not just one type.

And as I said, Slowbro counters Victini and Darmanitan. Victini only has a small chance to 2HKO on the sun assuming that it's using Choice Band, and most Darmanitan use Choice Scarf, wich means that Darmanitan cannot even 3HKO Slowbro in the sun.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I'll just quote that little bit, because the rest of your post is based off that false premise. It counters Sun? Really? Here's a little food for thought:

Timid Venusaur: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 56.43% - 66.43% (easy 2HKO)

Modest Venusaur: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 62.14% - 72.86% (easier 2HKO)

Timid Victreebel: 52 SpAtk Life Orb Victreebel Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 56.43% - 66.43% (yep, 2HKO)

Sawsbuck: 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck (+Atk) Horn Leech vs 252 HP/0 Def Hippowdon: 60.71% - 71.43% (what a surprise, a 2HKO!)

Essentially, your Hippowdon gets 1 switch into a Chlorophyll sweeper before it dies. That's not a "hard counter" to Sun, that's an easy win for Sun. And against Sun teams with Xatu, Hippo can't even set up rocks like you claim it's so very good at doing. Even Hippowdon's Ice Fang won't deal 50% to Xatu. Sure, Hippo isn't threatened by Dugtrio. So what? It loses to almost every other member of generic BW2 Sun offense. Hippowdon should not be used for the purpose of beating Sun, period.



No it doesn't. The set is Scald/Substitute/Toxic/Rapid Spin. If you have Sub, Toxic, AND Protect, then either a) you lose to SubDisable Gar anyways because you don't have Scald to hit it, or b) you can't spin. Either way, Tenta loses.

Fool. Your arguments are baseless not because of their falsity, but because of their irrelevancy.

Let me ask you this:Does anyone EVER use a chlorophyll sweeper outside of sun? No? Oh yeah, that's because when sun is dead chlorophyll sweepers SUCK. You think it's bad when venusaur has super saiyan four moveslot syndrome? Try it when it can't outspeed anything or boost more than +1 a turn. And it's fire attacks are weaker. And if he carries solarbeam, god forbid... well. As for victreebell and sawsbuck, same thing, except those are not even in OU. so you can't even pretend like people use them in ou outside of sun.
SPdef hippowdon switches directly into ninetales, killing sun. It can't be worn down, because of slack off. It sets up SR, wearing down all of the great fire-types on sun, and even the grass-types.

As for the core of genesect/xatu/ninetales/dugtrio/victini/venusaur, hippow DOES have problems with it, but occasionally he gets an SR up all over genesect's ice beam.

Oh, and he roars wobbuffett. That one takes a teensy bit of prediction, and CAN be a problem. But still, against almost any sun team, hippowdon is the hardest counter you will EVER find.


You're right about darm and victini, people haven't been using them lately so recency bias, but they ARE great on sun. Still, if they u-turn on slowbro, he can't attack on the switch-in, and if they use powerful attacks he's almost forced to slack off. But he does stop them from ruining your team.

They do make you more vulnerable to physical attacks, but less to special. Spdef hippowdon is just a catch-all check to stuff, and a great counter to a lot of other stuff, especially mixed wallbreakers (Grass-knot less nape, for example.)

as for the tentacruel thing, Eh, i forgot about this. Personally i'm not a big fan of subtoxic, but i haven't seen it used enough for it to really piss me off;it might if used intelligently by a couple of good players. Or not.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
But still, against almost any sun team, hippowdon is the hardest counter you will EVER find.
Hippowdon counters sun teams like Ninetales counters rain teams. It just takes out the opposing weather, but there are many things that sun teams can do against Hippowdon. Using a specially defensive set means that Hippowdon isn't as good as a physical wall, and means that it can be 2HKOed by many physical attacks, like I said above, Victini's V-Create (this is assuming that sandstorm is up, not sun!).

The calculations that the user provided above are correct: do them if you don't believe. Also, all chloro sweepers can outspeed Hippowdon even outside of sun. Hippowdon can do nothing against them, and can only manages to setup Stealth Rock, Roar them away, or even attack if, and only IF, it is at full health.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Hippowdon counters sun teams like Ninetales counters rain teams. It just takes out the opposing weather, but there are many things that sun teams can do against Hippowdon. Using a specially defensive set means that Hippowdon isn't as good as a physical wall, and means that it can be 2HKOed by many physical attacks, like I said above, Victini's V-Create (this is assuming that sandstorm is up, not sun!).

The calculations that the user provided above are correct: do them if you don't believe. Also, all chloro sweepers can outspeed Hippowdon even outside of sun. Hippowdon can do nothing against them, and can only manages to setup Stealth Rock, Roar them away, or attack them if, and only IF, it is at full health.
See, but you're missing the point here. When sun isn't up, and SR is up, then who on sun is REALLY good? The main chlorohpyll sweepers WILL pwn hippowdon, but that doesn't matter because they've been stripped of their sun, which as i JUST explained makes them basically NU pokemon. If you still can't deal with them, then that is a problem, i'll admit, but you generally can.As for darminitan/victini, they still can't switch in to all that much, even if hippowdon is burned, and they're dying slowly. he can also generally take one hit and KO back. I notice no one's mentioned volcarona, but he can take a hit and roar away. Technically, roost volcarona CAN be problematic, though. I guess charizard too, if anyone even uses him on sun any more.

It's like if you walk up to a bunch of people with no legs and iron man suits. Then you steal all the suits. Okay, so they're alive.. if you got close, their strong arms could kill you. But they can only crawl. So what does any of that other stuff matter?

Also i ninja'd alexwolf. APOLOGIES.
 

alexwolf

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Hippowdon counters sun teams like Ninetales counters rain teams. It just takes out the opposing weather, but there are many things that sun teams can do against Hippowdon. Using a specially defensive set means that Hippowdon isn't as good as a physical wall, and means that it can be 2HKOed by many physical attacks, like I said above, Victini's V-Create (this is assuming that sandstorm is up, not sun!).

The calculations that the user provided above are correct: do them if you don't believe. Also, all chloro sweepers can outspeed Hippowdon even outside of sun. Hippowdon can do nothing against them, and can only manages to setup Stealth Rock, Roar them away, or attack them if, and only IF, it is at full health.
DFA you didn't get what tehy meant. When saying that Hippowdon counters sun, he meant that he counters the weather, not the team (he does most of the time but this is not done by Hippo alone). And this happens because whenever Ninetales is out, Hippowdon gets a free switch, and Sun will never be up, except if Tales uses Sunny Day on the switch. And even then Hippo can go for some mind games with the opponent. Do i send in my Xatu to refelct back his SR, or will he send this ugly Genesect of his and gain momentum if i bring in Xatu? Or even worse this ugly Stoutland, which can ko me with either Wild Charge or Pursuit?
 

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