1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    Why would you hit Breloom with HP Ghost when you have Secret Sword?
  2. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Rotom-H honestly has an extremely appealing typing both offensively and defensively. It gets shafted only because rain is super potent and it's weakness increases while it's stab fire decreases and it's also weak to rocks. Otherwise it's phenomenal, one of the only hard counters to Nidoking's fantasticcoverage in UU.

    Also The weather starters besides Hippo (Ttar is shit in this meta) are total dead weight. You could run a Droughtales with no moves on your sun team and you'd still accomplish just as much.
  3. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    264
    Ok, ok, dumb mistake on my part...Rotom-H is not good against rain. Okay, first of all, you shouldn't be running life orb on Rotom-H...choice scarf is its most useful set. Also, the idea isn't that you necessarily straight-up OHKO Genesect, but that you force it out without it doing anything useful, and if you predict the switch-in well, you might be able to get a decent chunk of damage off on whatever comes in. Of course, you need to keep rocks off of your side of the field or this strategy won't work at all. Also, getting rocks + one layer of spikes for Deo-D isn't THAT hard, it just depends on what the opponent leads with...Genesect and Tyranitar will probably just keep you to getting rocks up, but not always.

    EDIT: To above poster, yes Heatran is better against genesect, and a better pokemon in general, but it has a big glaring weakness called dugtrio that Rotom-H doesn't have to worry about. I was just suggesting Rotom-H as a solution to people who find heatran's dugtrio weakness unappealing. Also, the HP Ground thing is true as well, but Genesect running HP Ground is kind of bad...sure you beat Genesect's greatest enemy, but you lose out on a valuable coverage move in the process when you're just better off u-turning away from tran.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    I've actually just created a sun team that uses Choice Specs Rotom-H and it's pretty effective. Overheat absolutely murders anything that doesn't resist it and is not made of pink bubble gum, Volt Switch mantains momentum, and Trick means that Chansey and Blissey aren't completely safe. The other slot is filler, I am running Hidden Power Rock just to have a backup attack against Volcarona and is my strongest attack against Dragon-types as well.

    Before somebody says that Victini is more effective, Rotom-H's Fire STAB doesn't lower its defenses and speed, also Rotom-H is not weak to Pursuit and neutral to U-Turn, and has much more great resistances than Victini, and gets STAB on the Electric-type attack.
  5. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    HP Ground can find a slot on EB Bluff, but yeah it does lose out on coverage.
  6. Danger Mouse

    Danger Mouse

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    264
    you know, as annoying as sun and sand can be to face, i'm just plain sick of rain. whether it's ferrothorn that won't die unless you have really powerful fighting STAB or a REALLY powerful fire attack (again, preferably STAB), tentacruel protect stalling you endlessly, tornadus-t spamming hurricane, or keldeo spamming surf, rain just has too many tools to abuse, both offensively and defensively. sun is nearly as bad, but i think we could simply ban drizzle and see what the meta looks like with sun/sand/hail still legal. seriously, tell me a way to beat rain that doesn't involve running your own weather or something stupid like swift swim kingdra, i'm all ears.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    ^If you want a perfect check to all those annoying rain threats, run Lefties WoW Rotom-W, which handles all the threats that you listed, including Ferro (Burned Ferro = Half dead Ferro). Just make sure to also pack something for Thundurus-T, such as Latias, which also checks most Sun teams admirably.
  8. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    254
    Well we have a ladder for suspect testing, why don't we open it up to some more unorthodox uses. There's hardly a reason to sit here and talk about theoretical ofs and buts when there is an environment which we could be using to test things. Why not test all the viable weather strategies against weatherless teams and see what the outcomes are? It just seems silly to talk then do nothing. If weather is becoming problematic we should do some research/experimenting to see how much credit there is to them being broken.

    Also on the subject HP ground sect even though you lose out on coverage you don't have to run dugtrio who really only exists as part of the genetrio core to defeat heatran, weather starters and some very specific threats I can't think of right now.
  9. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,959
    I've already tested all the "viable weather strategies", as you put it, against my "weatherless" HO team on the Showdown ladder. I've spoken about this before, and I hate to flaunt my rank to make a point, but I achieved #1 on both the OU and OU Suspect ladders simultaneously with a weatherless team. The idea behind it was to get up rocks and then put a ton of pressure on the opponent to force switches and nab a setup opportunity in the process, then go to work on the opposing team. It worked extremely well, and I think my success with the team proves that weather really does not equate to success in this metagame.

    On the subject of HP Ground Genesect, I really don't like this for two reasons. One, it's extremely situational - what if the opponent doesn't have Heatran, like about 80% of them don't? Then you just wasted a moveslot for nothing. Two, you're losing valuable coverage - Genesect really needs all four of its moves to function at maximum capability, and if the opponent has a Pokemon that HP Ground Genesect misses out on covering, you could be screwed. Besides, Dugtrio is an asset for most teams, even outside of trapping Heatran. It also beats a lot of other stuff, most notably Tyranitar and Ninetales, but many common OU Pokemon besides those can be easily trapped and killed by it. Saying Dugtrio is a waste just doesn't add up.

    I agree with your basic premise, though. People should stop sitting around theorymoning, get out there and test stuff before you post.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    Saying HP Ground is bad on Genesect is like saying that HP Fire is bad on Celebi. HP Fire lets Celebi avoid being a free switch-in for Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn and Genesect, while HP Ground allows Genesect to OHKO pokes that otherwise he couldn't, such as Heatran, Magnezone and Terrakion. And do i really need to stress how vital is the removal of Heatran for many pokes such as Venusaur, Scizor, Victreebel, ScarfMence and many others?

    Yeah both moves (HP Fire and HP Ground) target very specific targets, but these threats are the most common switch-ins to those pokes, and for this reason you are able to lure and kill them. Yeah Mamoswine can OHKO Heatran, as Heatran can OHKO Scizor (Genesect's and Celebi's arch enemies), but the opponent will switch out unless they have no other choice. This is why lures as so important, when you want to open the door for a sweep.

    And yeah Dugtrio exists and can also trap and kill pokes that could wall Genesect, but don't forget that Dugtrio can't fit in all teams (most non Sun teams rarely use him), and that not all people can and want to use 2 slots to deal with something that could have been dealt by only 1.
  11. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,959
    This is all completely true, except you ignore the underlying point of my argument which is that when Genesect runs HP Ground over another move it loses out on its essential 4 move coverage that makes it so good in the first place. I understand that HP Ground could be a good move for Genesect to have in certain situations, mostly ones involving Heatran, but last I checked Heatran's used on less than 17% of teams, so it's an extremely situational thing to have.

    You mention that using Dugtrio to cover Heatran uses two slots, whereas HP Ground Genesect uses only one. You also say that most Sun teams use Dugtrio. Connect these two points, and you'll get what I'm saying. HP Ground Genesect would only be of use on teams that lack Dugtrio, right? And Sun teams generally carry Dugtrio, yes? So it follows that on Sun teams, you don't want to use HP Ground Genesect. Dugtrio's job isn't solely killing Heatran, as I stated; it also beats weather starters and a couple other assorted OU threats to boot.

    In summary, HP Ground Genesect may have its uses, but on teams where I feel I'd need it most, I would generally pass in favor of Dugtrio.
  12. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    I completely disagree with this. HP Fire is recommended on Celebi because a lot of things would wall it otherwise if it only used its STABs. It's not a situtional move, it's a move that Celebi needs for coverage. While Earth Power is stronger, don't forget that most of the commonly used Steel-types aren't weak to Ground, and even those that are, sometimes use Air Balloon to avoid it. While Earth Power can murder Heatran, it's really the only Steel-type that is preferable to use Earth Power in place of Hidden Power Fire, as Hidden Power Fire can already dent (or OHKO if boosted) other Steel-types anyway, and even Heatran can manage to avoid Earth Power if it has Air Balloon.

    On other hand, I will change my opinion if you say at least one other thing apart from Heatran to wich Genesect absolutely needs to use HP Ground to defeat.

    HP Ground is only a good option if you run Genesect on a rain team as Flamethrower will not be a good option and Genesect could use it to deal with Steel-types, but even then Bug Buzz is better, and Thunder will already dent many Steel-types, and will be stronger against those that don't resist it and aren't weak to Ground.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    I never ignored this part. Celebi loses important moves as well when running HP Fire on both offensive and defensive sets. In defensive sets by running HP Fire you lose out on any of Perish Song / U-turn / Heal Bell, which are very important moves, and on offensive sets you lose EP / HP Ice / Psychic, all of which are again really important. And as i said again HP Ground is not only useful against Heatran, it also OHKOes Terrakion at +1 after SR, which is one of the most common Genesect switch-ins, and removing this thing from the game is soooo sweet, as well as Magnezone (yeah Flamethrower exists, but it can't kill the other 2 pokes can it? rain also exists). So you will actually use HP Ground in more than 17% of the games.

    Did i ever deny that Sect + Dugtrio is an amazing combo for Sun teams? But hey, Genesect is in like half of the teams anyway, so you can find him in literally every kind of team. And other types of teams, except from Sun (and rain sometimes), are not really fond of Dugtrio, so this is where HP Ground Sect comes to the party.
  14. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2010
    Messages:
    825
    there is one reason for which i would justify HP ground genesect: your team has an astoundingly deep weakness to shed shell heatran, and you NEED to kill it. i would rather sacrifice a slot on genesect for hp ground than say, sacrificing a slot on venusaur for eq. shed shell tran can be quite difficult for sun teams to kill without a surprise move (if i see choiced fighting i'm just gonna gtfo, you won't be ohkoing me unless it's also stab in which case i'm not gonna switch heatran in at all). sometimes you really do need the surprise factor. if heatran is running a shed shell, it is almost definitely your opponent's anchor against genesect, and against your sun team in general. if you can snipe it by surprise, the whole team is wide open and basically waiting to be foddered off.

    other than that, the usefulness of hp ground is rather limited... certainly you CAN catch heatran that way, but it's probably more useful to run the fourth special attack and let something else on the team deal with heatran.

    and of course you also have to wonder about how many tran variants can actually break through sectrio, of which there are really only four: shed shell (rare... very rare), choice scarf, flame charge (even rarer than shed shell) and magma storm (gimmicky unless it's on a sun or sand team so it's unlikely to be a problem). those are really the only ones that you can't just kill with dugtrio right off, and that's a really SMALL fraction of heatran in general, and you'd have to be scouting like a god to determine which one it was without losing either genesect or dugtrio in the process. it's much more likely that you're gonna run into air balloon sdef tran, pop its balloon and let dugtrio kill it, than it is for you to run into shed shell tran.
  15. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,959
    Okay, how about we don't let the megathread sit here and die? xD

    I want to talk about the drop of Deoxys-D usage from previously being an extremely prominent Pokemon on the ladder to now sitting at #48 in OU usage with a percentage use of less than 5% per battle. That's really low for a Pokemon that has been called for a ban more times than I can count. What's happened to what was once the premier hazard setter in late BW1? Does there still exist a playstyle known as Deoxys-D offense, or has that faded away into the past? Why isn't Deoxys-D seeing any usage this past month? Please, share your thoughts (and revive this massive thread while you're at it).
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    I'm currently using a Deo-D team myself on Beta and I've lattered around 1500 with Skill Swap / Mental Herb Deo-D. The playstyle still works, and quite frankly, I don't know why other people don't try it out.

    Also, I've been testing Rotom-H, and whoever said it sucks against rain has obviously NEVER used it before. Sure, its NOT Rotom-W at all, but it's thunderbolt still does 75% to Politoed, and it hard core walls Torn-T and can twave / volt-switch the switch in. Overheat does 89% in rain to Ferrothorn from Rotom-H so I feel it needs more love. Rotom-H is amazing on Deo-D teams, as it patches up Gene and Venu quite nicely.

    On the topic of banning Deo-D, I don't agree with that. The only thing it can do that Azelf and Mew can't do better is use spikes, and that's it really. I don't see how Deo-D itself warrants a ban, as it fails to even get SPIKES up half the time I use it. I'm thinking about replacing it for azelf on my team, since Deo-D rarely can get more than SR on the field. Don't get me wrong, its still managable, and its good, (I've gotten 1500), but even still I don't think it warrants a ban.

    scarf rotom-h isn't the way to go; the bulky attacker with some edited speed is much better. Outspeed adamant mamo, and have bulk to live torn-t's hurricanes. ChestoRest or Lefties is fine here, the only thing the bulky set hates is SR, but you can apply pressure to keep your opponent from setting them up early-game, which makes it MUCH more manageable.
  17. Roie

    Roie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    59
    I always thought deoxys d is terrible. I guess he can spike and stall, which no one else can do, but as a wall he is no different from forretress or ferrothorn. He can only stall certain pokemon so maybe he's good on super-stall teams that have his weaknesses covered.
    I don't think bw2 was kind to him now that genesect is around. Suicide-lead DeoD is useless now.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    @Lavos Spawn

    The normal usage statistics mean almost nothing because PS is full of noobs. To see a somewhat accurate picture of the meta one should check the Suspect Ladder statistics. There Deoxys-D is 29th, with 7,~ usage, which is pretty good if you ask me, especially considering the fact that he can only be used on fully offensive teams (i am not counting the SpD set for stall teams, because almost noone uses stall, and almost noone uses Deoxys-D on stall).

    But the fact that people have finally stopped bitching around and realized that they have ways to get around Deo-D with their own offensive teams, made them capable of adapting. If Deo-D lacks Magic Coat or Mental Herb it will be beaten by quite a bit of mons, such as Tornadus-T, Mew, Aerodactyl, Cobalion and Terrakion with Taunt.

    If Deo-D can avoid Taunt due to the above factors, then you can straight up outspeed and kill it before it lays any hazards, have a MB poke, set-up on it, or just lead with your spinner. Some pokes that can do any of those are Jollly / Naive CB Gensect, which outspeeds and OHKOes with U-turn at +1 (Deo-D puts the 4 evs on SpD), Bug Gem Scolipede (just mentioning it, not saying that it is common, lol), Xatu, Espeon, Volcarona, DD Mence, SD Garchomp, CM Keldeo, Starmie, Tentacruel and more.

    Yeah many of the already mentioned pokes can be beaten by the attacking lead, but this Deo-D loses against any other Deo-D and any suicide lead in general, which makes it less appealing.

    @Shurtugal


    I don't find Rotom-H so useful against Venusaur, because most of them use Life Orb and Sludge Bomb, which severely dents Rotom-H and OHKOes at +2. I guess he can wall the HP Ice + EQ Venu that has been pooping around but that's it.
  19. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    LO Sludge Bomb is hard to take, but most sun teams can't get rocks up without Phan or Duggy, so by eliminating SR, it should be easier to wall if you preserve Rotom-H. Since Gene and Venu are so common on sun teams, it really makes it hard to do much, especially since Venu needs +2 to actually do stuff, and a LO, which LO damage is not good for Venu when its LO + Priority. Just mentioning it since most Deo-D teams have priority abusers... Not saying it has to be on Deo-D, just that ROtom-H fits well on them.

    Walls Venu varriants of:

    Giga / HP Fire / EQ / Growth

    Giga / HP Fire / Sleep Powder / Growth

    sludge bomb is tricky, but ultimately can't do anything without +2
  20. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    But this is only true if you are using a bulky version of Rotom-H; and I think that, at least on sun teams, not using Rotom-H with Choice Specs is a waste of its wallbreaking potential. It may be not, but in my opinion the best way to use Rotom-H in sun is with Choice Specs, as that makes its Overheat extremely powerful. Here are some calculations:

    (Even the pink blobs take a hefty amount of damage)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Chansey (Neutral): 40% - 47% (282 - 333 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/252SpDef Leftovers Blissey (+SpDef): 39% - 46% (258 - 304 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    (As Quagsire's Unaware ignores the SpA drop from Overheat, even the most specially defensive variants of Quagsire may as well say bye bye)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Unaware Quagsire (+SpDef): 52% - 62% (207 - 245 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    (Grim Reaper has a thing to say to any Porygon2 that doesn't invest in Special Defense)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Porygon2 (+SpDef): 58% - 69% (220 - 259 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    (Assuming that Vaporeon switches correctly expecting Overheat and doesn't have investiment in SpD, as most Vaporeon are physically defensive)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Vaporeon (Neutral): 49% - 58% (229 - 270 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 16% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    (The most specially defensive version of Ferrothorn is not going to survive Specs Rotom-H's Overheat anytime soon, even in rain)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Ferrothorn (+SpDef): 109% - 129% (384 - 456 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    (Not even Slowbro, Tentacruel and Gastrodon escapes from the sheer power of Overheat)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Slowbro (Neutral): 67% - 79% (264 - 312 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Tentacruel (Neutral): 51% - 60% (189 - 222 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Storm Drain Gastrodon (+SpDef): 42% - 50% (180 - 213 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    (Hippowdon must think twice about switching in even with max investiment in Special Defense, and this is in Sandstorm!)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sandstorm vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Hippowdon (Neutral): 68% - 80% (288 - 339 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    (Terrakion and Kingdra are not walls, but I think that they are worthy of mention, Terrakion because it's rather bulky and resists Overheat, and Kingdra because it 4x resists Overheat)
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Terrakion (Neutral): 74% - 87% (242 - 285 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Damp Kingdra (Neutral): 39% - 46% (115 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    And this is not even considering that Slowbro, Vaporeon and Tentacruel are weak to Volt Switch/Thunderbolt!

    So that's it; I'm not using Rotom-H just to have a counter to Genesect, and alas, sun teams fare well against Genesect. In my opinion the best way to use Rotom-H is, and always will be, as a wallbreaker. And these versions of Rotom-H do not survive +2 Sludge Bomb from Venusaur at all.

    So if you manage to bring Rotom-H safely and the opposing Pokémon can't defeat him, you are sure that even the next switch-in is going to take a large amount of damage, if it is not outright OHKOed.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,946
    Still there are many things that make Rotom-H sad, even with Specs. Dragons, Ttar and Gastrodon can take everything he throws, although repeated Volt Switches will wear them down (except from Gastrodon). I am interested to make a Sun team with him now that you mentioned him. Which pokes you think partner good with him, except from Tales?
  22. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    Actually Gastrodon takes a hefty amount of damage in the sun (see the calcs above), and can be OHKOed if it switches into Overheat two times after Stealth Rock damage, and this is assuming that it has max investiment in SpD.

    Also, about the dragons that resist Overheat:

    52SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Salamence (Neutral): 80% - 94% (266 - 313 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    (an OHKO after Stealth Rock)

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Dragonite (Neutral): 57% - 67% (221 - 261 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    (Assuming that Multiscale is broken, even Dragonite won't like the damage that it's going to take from Overheat in the sun)

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Hydreigon (Neutral): 74% - 87% (242 - 285 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    (Sadly, Hydreigon is neutral to Stealth Rock, wich means that it has to switch 2 times into it to actually instantly die, but nonetheless it is not going to survive the second blow)

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 48% - 56% (176 - 207 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
    (I think that I don't need to make the calcs with Latios, right?)

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 36HP/0SpDef Leftovers Haxorus (Neutral): 98% - 115% (297 - 349 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 90% chance to OHKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Overheat in Sun vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Haxorus (Neutral): 101% - 118% (297 - 349 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    (Haxorus, wich resists Overheat, is OHKOed in the sun without Stealth Rock. Even 36 HP EVs versions of Haxorus only have 10% chance to survive - if Stealth Rock is off the field)

    Tyranitar in fact laughs at Overheat but hates being hit with Volt Switch repeatedly:

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom (Neutral) Volt Switch in Sandstorm vs 252HP/176SpDef Leftovers Tyranitar (+SpDef): 18% - 22% (76 - 90 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.

    Tyranitar sets without investiment in SpDef may hate having to switch on Volt Switch so many times.

    As for partners, I think that due to the sheer power of Overheat in the sun, the only partner that it really needs is Ninetales. But as Tyranitar is still a threat, something like Dugtrio or Terrakion may be a cool partner for Rotom-W. Venusaur of course makes an amazing partnership with Rotom-H, as it destroys all Water-types that laugh at Volt Switch and can defeat the dragons with Sludge Bomb/Hidden Power Ice.

    Also, before somebody says that Rotom-H is outclassed by either Heatran or Victini, Rotom-H has some advantages over them.

    Over Heatran, Rotom-H is immune to Ground, has STAB Electric-types so it's not helpless against bulky Water-types, has Volt Switch to mantain momentum and has Trick to surprise those pink blobs.

    Over Victini, Rotom-H is not weak to Pursuit, it's STAB doesn't lower its defenses and speed, thus not making Rotom-H as prone to revenge killing as Victini, receives STAB on the Electric-type attack and is not going to take as much damage from hazards as Victini due to immunity to Spikes.
  23. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    I use bulky rotom-w, personally. Since I don't run sun:

    Rotom-H @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 124 HP / 120 SAtk / 48 SDef / 216 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Overheat
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunder Wave

    Speed enough to outspeed adamant mamoswine, and a few other things I can't remember off the top of my head. The special attack stat, although not has heavily invested, still dishes out lots of damage, especially on Ferrothorn's (in rain; 89%). TWave helps since when it walls Torn-T, common switch ins are things that resist volt-switch, like Latios and Terrakion. Thunderbolt just is for finishing attack, and really, if you apply hazards to the equation (2 spike + sr), it reaches a lot of KOs. Specs Overheat isn't that great as 3HKO on chansey / blissey is kind of useless since it can switch in and heal. Quaggy shouldn't be stupid enough to go in on Rotom-H in sun to begin with, and other things in sun like Venu hit it harder anyways. Porygon2 isn't that great in the metagame and they aren't seen much on higher latter, and besides, Rotom-H should wall its bolt-beam coverage anyway so it wouldn't matter anyway. Gastro gets recover, and thunderbolt specs should OHKO Tenta / Gastro anyway. Hippo gets slack off, but hey, physical defensive should be OHKO'ed. 2HKO is kinda useless on Terrak since it OHKOs back. Kingdra not seen much and 4x resist so I would just V-Switch from it anyway.

    Rotom-H is amazing, but I just want to point out that it can be used outside of sun and check sun + gene for other teams. It kinda struggles with Sludge Bomb, but since most run black sludge, or don't have +2 (which, in otherwords, Sludge Bomb 3hkos w/o +2), it overall checks it. It's got uses, and specs is viable, but I wouldn't make Overheat something it isn't :/
  24. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    The calculations just show the great damage that Overheat does on switch-ins. While it's true that the pink blobs have healing, they won't like repeteadly switching on Overheat. Also, unless they have the combination of Wish + Protect, if they don't use recovery right off, the next switch-in is going to put a lot of pressure on them, preventing them from recovering, and at same time if they recover, you are preventing them from supporting the team.

    Thunderbolt and Volt Switch is going to OHKO/2HKO many bulky Waters, but the calculations show that they aren't safe switch-ins to Overheat in the sun, and unless they pack reliable recovery, they are going to have a hard time with repeated Overheats.

    And Terrakion is in fact going to 2HKO Rotom-H back. But hey, it's not going to survive the second blow, and if you somehow manage to safely bring the next switch-in on Terrakion's attack, Terrakion can't again come back on Rotom-H.

    So basically, Overheat, when not OHKOing the enemy, is opening holes or putting a lot of pressure on him.
  25. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,959
    First, you're claiming that Overheat is going to scare away the pink blobs and put pressure on them. Well, that's not true in the slightest. Chansey and Blissey are going to shrug off a pathetically weak Overheat, Softboiled, and you're right back where you started. Hell, they can even take the opportunity to set up SR, use a status move, or Wish while you're busy switching out to recover from your attack that did next to nothing.

    Bulky waters aren't going to switch in to Rotom-H, so I have no idea why you're pretending they will and then telling us that Electric is super-effective against Water. The stuff that is actually switching into Rotom-H is going to wall it hard or threaten it out.

    Terrakion does not 2HKO Rotom-H, it OHKOs Rotom-H. Have you forgotten about Stone Edge? That's a clean OHKO on the proposed Rotom-H, regardless of whether Terrakion is CB, LO, or Scarf. Not to mention, Rotom can't do squat to it, especially if Sand is up, which gives Terrakion a 1.5x boost in SDef.

    From all of this, I still have no idea where you get that Rotom-H puts pressure on the opponent. I don't even see why you'd want to use this thing over another Rotom form. Fire-Electric typing is trash, you shouldn't be weak to Water when that's one of your main targets.

    Can we use good Pokemon please?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)