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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Genesect is more manageable in practice than you said here.Each set can be dealt with the right moves and pokes.Firstly,Scarf Genesect has to lock itself in one attack when it's not using U-Turn.So you can simply use that and gain momentum on your side.CB Sect can really surprise you and might net a kill,but once you know it's CB,it can easily be dealt by exploiting that medicore 99 Base Speed.Rock Poilish set,from using it is certainly one of the most dangerous and underrated sweepers in OU,however it still needs to get rid of special walls to sweep.Furthermore,you can actually "predict" it.If you see the opponent not using Genesect to U-Turn about or attempting revenge kills,and instead saving it for late game,you can guess that it's a RP set.Also,the RP set has similar move pools for Scarf and Ebelt sets so,If you bring something for them,you can deal with RP genesect.

    Genesect is not Uber material imo.It's perfectly fine in OU.I never had any game breaking problems facing Genesect.Sure,it's really good,hard to counter and has a lot of options but still,there ARE ways you can deal with it or check it.There are plenty of mons in OU that cannot be Hard Countered such as Terrakion,Salamence etc.But there are methods to beat them.Genesect is in the same group.The reason it's used so much more than them is mainly because he can fit in almost any team and do it's job very well.
  2. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Genesect is sort of tricky. It's been very metagame defining recently, nut only because it's 99 speed makes it a good scarfer and download means it can sort of wear a CS/CB at the same time it has its scarf. It's essentially nidoking crossed with scizor. All it's really done is make the TurnDug core super potent and fucks dugtrio weak pokes as well as emphasizes the importance of the 100 speed baseline. Oh salamence has to run +speed instead of +attack, it isn't as much of a big deal as people think on its own though. All it's really brought to the table is making dugtrio far more viable because heatran is one of its only hard counters.
  3. BKC

    BKC
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    So why don't we do something about it? Banning rain and sun takes the biggest aspect of team match-up out of the game, and Smogon strives to make the most competitive metagame.
    Who cares how much shit we ban if we get the best possible metagame out of it? Would you rather ban nothing and have a shitty metagame, or ban rain + sun + Genesect and have a good metagame?

    Ideally I'd like to see a completely weatherless metagame, I might write a big post about it and its benefits eventually, but for now, I think that sun and rain are priority. Genesect is also horrible for the metagame, every time it comes in you have a 50/50 prediction unless you have Heatran, who'll just get fucked by Dugtrio if you're running the Shed Shell set whose only use is to beat this brainless combination.

    None of the best battles I've played in or witnessed this generation have had rain or sun in it, because both players are focusing on winning the game by killing 6 mons. With rain and sun, that's not how you win; you win those games by focusing on killing Toed/Tales [often with trappers] and then letting your team carry you. That's not how pokemon is supposed to be.

    EDIT:
    By weatherless I mean no permanent weather starters. I agree with the points you've made here. Another pro of a weatherless metagame means we can un-ban Excadrill and Manaphy, neither of which are broken without their respective perma-weather; the former could run a Kingdra-esque Sandstorm cleaner set, and the latter of which would just be a solid but not overpowering sweeper.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Genesect is a good scarfer, but its 99 speed is actually a hindrance, because it can never outspeed base 100 and above pokés that run max Speed and a positive nature if they have speed boosting natures or are using Choice Scarf themselves. And non-scarf sets are prone to being outsped by non-Scarf and non-Speed boosting move versions of these Pokémon by the same reason.
  5. StairFall

    StairFall

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    When you say weatherless do you mean no weather or no permanent weather starters? Because I think the latter would be better than the former. You'd have the boosts from weather still available but it wouldn't simply be about killing toed/tales and carrying your team from there, it would be far more counterable and much more reasonable. Kingdra runs a self raindance set in UU, it gets a double stab on water moves and +2 speed for five turns, eight if it wants to forego life orb/lum berry for damp rock but it all works out because you can taunt before it dances, stall out the temporary rain, trick it a choice item so it gets locked into rain dance and change the weather without having to have Tale/Ttar who would have to come in on a KO because they get nuked by Kingdra. I think a manual weather only meta would put a higher emphasis on strategy rather than who kills the other's weather first.
  6. Hillz

    Hillz

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    I honestly do not understand why so many people are so worked up over sandslash. It's still used less than 1% on the ladder and I have never had a problem walling it or spinblocking against it, which let I remind you, it can only do one at a time. Sandslash has a horrible special defense stat, punishing it on the switch against many common attacks. Even with its comparably high defense stat, its only decent hp keeps it in a good spot for revenge kills after prior damage. Even though it's fast, its boring movepool and average attack stat means that its remarkably easy to wall. SD Terrakion and dd Salamence are both much harder to wall. As far as dealing it through offense, it loses to any special attacker that can take more than one of its attacks. As a rapid spinner, its easily outclassed by starmie and Donphan, even in a metagame where spinblocking is dead (bar jelli). In a metagame that lacks other weather though, it is slightly more potent with the loss of rain, but can still be neutralized through a permasand+sand rush ban, which could possibly also pull down excadrill into the meta.

    I'm completely sick of weather by now honestly. Especially sun, who after several months, has finally became easy to abuse. Everyone has seen it and it makes running non-weather so much less of an option, since threats such as venusaur, dugtrio and volcarona put too much stress on a team when they are all used together.

    Anyone who has played dpp can tell you the sheer number of options that open up to you while you teambuild when you don't have to worry about being pounded into the ground with weather boosted attacks, set up on by invincible steel types or disintegrated by boosted dragon attacks.

    This metagame is completely broken, but if I were to make a list of everything that stands out it would resemble : tyranitar, ninetales, politoed, reuniclus, genesect, alakazam, tornadus-T, breloom, latios, gorebyss, cloyster, ferrothorn, terrakion, espeon, landorus and chansey.

    </rage>

    Okay, maybe not ALL of those have to be banned, but I do believe that sun requires more restrictions and that weather dominates this current meta. I'm also convinced that there's some sort of crazy set of restrictions [something like no u-turn on flying types if they're on rain (this is not the actual ban; that would be stupid)] that could somehow totally balance this game but no one would take seriously due to its complexity.

    I think a balanced ou metagame is really defined by how well it recieves the pokemon more geared towards strategy such as flygon, forretress and conkeldurr while not being dominated by pokemon that make the game impossible to play.
  7. Zacchaeus

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    Ferrothorn, Keldeo and Genesect suck outside of rain, Terrakion sucks outside of sand, and Volcarona sucks outside of sun? You sound like you're trying to be bitter instead of promoting intelligent discussion.

    I think this sounds wonderful, but it isn't really achieveable because Smogon doesn't aim to make an ideal metagame, but a balanced one. So while this no permanent weather metagame sounds good in theory, it really can't be achieved with the system we are currently using. Unless of course, Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, and Snow Warning are all banned without things like Rain Dance + Swift Swim bans ocurring
  8. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego NP: Simon Viklund--Double Cross
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    This is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Not only are unova pokemon great, but 5th generation brought new abilities and moves, ie multiscale, regenerator.

    To anyone who says that genesect is counterable, yeah, its sets are. As a scarfer it can be outsped, and as a sweeper it can be walled. But nothing can do it all at the same time, and without knowing all four of gene's moves, what item, and what set, you really don't stand a chance. U-turn to beat blisseys and heatrans, rock polish to beat things that think they'll outspeed it, scarf to just straight up revenge kill (outside of slamence & volcarona, but you can't say its not broken because it can't revenge kill them. That would be silly), or it can just bluff it all and go expert belt.
  9. StairFall

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    Well an ideal metagame would be a balanced one so the manual weather may be a good jumping off point, Banning the weather abilities to ubers is hardly that much different than banning them from UU. Of course it's obviously controversial as we aren't so much fixing a broken meta as much as we are rehauling a passable meta that none of us happen to like at all. Frankly the weather ban is teetering on fixing a problem that doesn't exist because it makes the game no fun. The only real problem with the permanent weather right now is how sone games are decided on turn 1 almost.

    We have a suspect ladder for testing suspect things on PS though, I see no reason to base any decision on the theorymoning in a thread when we could be doing hard evidence testing.
  10. Roie

    Roie

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    A balanced metagame? It is balanced. Everyone can pick from the same pool of pokemon. The problem is if something is over-centralizing, which is a completely different goal for a metagame than what you'd call a "balanced" metagame.
    Garchomp is probably a good check to genesect but we can't test that completely until garchomp is unbanned and genesect is suspect.
  11. Danger Mouse

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    Yeah, Rotom-H is great against Sun and Rain, but the best reason to use him is the whole 'hard counter to Genesect' thing. The best Genesect can do is a CB Explosion, in which case he'd still be outsped and OHKO'd by scarf Overheat. I also find that if you get stealth rock and a layer of spikes up, Genesect is kind of screwed, even moreso if you get 2 layers of spikes. Another good anti-Genesect combination is Keldeo+Thundurus-Therian. Keldeo can switch in on any of Genesect's moves bar thunderbolt/thunder, which Thundurus absorbs. With hazards on the ground and smart play, you can force genesect out a lot more than it wants to be, wearing it down quickly.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    First of all why Rotom-H is good against rain? His stronger STAB is cut in half, and any water attack kills him. Yeah he has Electric attacks, but so do pokes such as Rotom-W, Jolteon and Zapdos, which are better pokes overall. Also CB Genesect doesn't even need to Explode to kill Rotom-H, as +1 Zen Headbutt OHKOes after SR. Oh and Specs Gensect at +1 2HKOes Rotom-H without SR with both Thunder and Bug Buzz, so Scarf Rotom-H can only check Scarf and EB Genesect for a limited amount of time, because of the nasty SR weakness and the lack of recovery.

    Aslo SR + 1 layer of Spikes is not easy at all to get, except against stall teams. Most teams should be prepared for Deoxys-D these days, which is your best bet of getting SR and Spikes up, so it is not easy to do it. And SR + 2 layers of Spikes is almost an imaginary scenario, as out of the games i have played, this happened almost in 5% of the times or something...
  13. TheStriker

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    Stoutland should be promoted to OU. Stoutland is a threat and could be OPed in UU because of eviolite hippopatas. It gained Superpower which can break through Ferrothorn, possibly 2HKOing it. Stoutland also can sweep with return late-game if equipped with Choice Band. Stoutland wont have to invest many Speed EVs and can go bulky with HP instead. Sandslash should be promoted to around UU or BL2 as it gained sand rush and swords dance can make it sweep UU and thats even better because there is permament sandstorm in UU and all tiers. I know this is off topic but have you noticed that eviolite onix works well in RU? Is their a sun section? SunChomp is amazing because of its weak coverage fire fang being boosted.
  14. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
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    I don't really see the appeal of using Rotom-H in OU, or the fact that it is great against Sun and Rain. I don't know how Rotom-H is good against Rain, when one of it's STAB options is halved and it cannot break through Ferrothorn and such. I understand that it might be great for dealing with Genesect, but ideally Genesect doesn't care all too much about what walls it because more than half the time it is sent in it'll be spamming U-Turns anyway. Here's a likely scenario with Rotom-H vs Genesect. Genesect switches in on something that it can threaten out with it's coverage moves, Rotom-H is sent in, Genesect U-Turns out into something for Rotom-H, Rotom-H is forced to switch and take more Life Orb damage on top of the potential +1 U-Turn it just took. Added with the lack of reliable recovery, a Stealth Rock weakness and the prevalence of Rain I'm not seeing the appeal of Rotom-H.

    As for the whole argument about Genesect, I can say I've never really had a problem with it, however I'm not forgetting that my opinion alone doesn't account for everyone else. The thing with Genesect is the sheer versatility of it alone means you have to scout the set before you attempt to beat it. Given how popular Scarf Genesect is, a lot of players can easily assume a Genesect is Scarfed as it switches in, so they switch to their Ferrothorns and such to take a U-Turn. Problem here is Genesect can easily have Rock Polish'd on the turn Ferrothorn switches in, or Genesect can go for a Thunderbolt as Ferrothorn switches in, and Flamethrower on the following turn as your opponent was not predicting an Expert Belt set. The point I'm trying to make here is that Genesect can fit on any type of team easily, and doesn't need any team support to make it work. Hell, even back in Dream World I used Genesect on a full stall team for extra damage with U-Turn + hazards and that team was one of the best I ever made. It's such a boon to offensive teams, and can be a nightmare for pretty much all types of teams. The main way I've found of beating it is to scout the set, mostly by intricate switching and baiting certain moves. While it might not be so threatening when you know the set, that's something you have to find out when playing, or you can be trying to set up against a Genesect you expect to be choice locked when it isn't. As much as I love Genesect, I'd agree that it is on the border of overpowered. This becomes even more crystal clear when you combine it with some of the other 'mons mentioned in this thread such as Keldeo and Thundurus-T.

    As for what would make a balanced metagame, I'm leading more towards a metagame with no weather, not just Sun and Rain gone. If you ban Sun and Rain then Sand popularity will increase, and if you ban Sand on top of that Hail will rise as there is no deterrent to the weather. I think a weatherless metagame would probably even out some of the Pokemon people had suspicions of being somewhat overpowered. I think it'd balance out stuff like Keldeo and Tornadus-T, who can singlehandedly sweep teams with no set up. When combined, these are Pokemon that are exceptionally hard to deal with, and weather only increases their effectiveness. A weatherless metagame would lead to much more diversity in teambuilding, as you don't have to run a Jirachi to beat Tornadus or even a Shed Shell Heatran to beat Sun. The battles would be more based on the skill level of each player, and less on team matchup. There's no denying some archetypes of weatherless teams have an incredibly hard time beating weather teams, no matter how well they're built. Banning weather would (imo) remove some of the team matchup aspect people seem to be complaining about, and battles would be won on who played better etc.

    Just my two cents.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    I've used Rotom-H on a rain stall team, and rotom-H is a perfect sun / genesect check ever. It's like using Rotom-W on a sun team, it seems like a bad idea at first, but works out during testing session.

    I really don't want to get back into the "match up determines the victor" argument as we already had that a few 10 pages ago. I seriously don't think this is the case, and I've already stated reasons before. I think people are confusing "ideal" and "balanced" metagames. I really don't see why weather needs to go if it isn't broken, which it has yet to be proven broken or unbalanced.

    As for shed shell Heatran, to be fair, Duggy was common in BW1 as well. Furthermore, people run non-standard things all the time to combat regular counters. I run Natural Gift Scizor to OHKO Jellicent / Skarm / Tenta at +2 and the team actually made 1480s. Some people run Hidden Power Ground on Genesect to combat Heatran, and some Heatran run shed shell to avoid being trapped. I also run SubCM Keldeo before with hp ghost over surf so I can set up on Jellicent, my point being that even if we banned Genesect that sets like this will be used to combat regular checks / counters. It's not that we are forcing Tran to run shed shell, but just that it works. Even if Gene was banned and Gene + Duggy was gone, things like Natural Cure Scizor or SubCM Keldeo with hidden power ghost over surf to combat usual counters will still be present in the metagame, and really, that's all Heatran is doing when it runs Shed Shell. Like Skarm used to in BW1.

    edit:

    with rotom-h on my rain stall, it was able to check Venu and Genesect from opposing sun teams just fine. It's not a complete waste against rain as it can also help in a volt-turn core, which is also nice. Rotom-W is usually superior choice, however, if you team can't combat sun teams as well and / or has a big flaw against Gene, Rotom-H is not a bad solution. Rotom-W can't really combat sun teams like Rotom-H can so they serve different purposes and I feel its unfair to compare them. The only thing that Rotom-H hates is SR, and rain stall can pack spinners or if your using it in sun, Xatu can just bounce them back anyway.
  16. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Rotom-H is not great against Rain. It can hold its own against most Water-types due to its Electric-type STAB, but that doesn't mean that it is great against Rain teams. It's good under sun, and may be good in weatherless or other weathers, but Rotom-W tends to be a better choice because of it's resistance to Water and it actually is good against rain due to not being weak to Water and Rock, having its Water-type STAB powered up and having Electric-type attacks to destroy the Water-types. All that Rotom-H have is its STAB Electric.

    What?
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    ^You might want to fix this:

    You meant Rotom-H right?
  18. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Keldeo with CM, Sub, HP Ghost, and Secret Sword can set up on Jellicent and actually has an answer to fighting types such as Breloom and Toxicroak. It can also hit Pokemon like Latias and Latios who think they can wall it (assuming you have a sub when they come in, otherwise gtfo psyshock). Peacha Berry Scizor gets Electric typing with Natural Gift, and it gets a technician boost, allowing it to reach 90 power. At +2, or even at +0, SD Scizor's usual counters can be eliminated. HP Ground Genesect on sun teams can lure Heatran and laugh with HP Ground, my point being is that although they are not common, they work and are seen in the metagame. My point is that when Heatran runs Shed Shell, it's only trying to get past its usual counter, Duggy, which I don't think is ONLY because of Gene + Duggy, because Duggy is on every sun team, and not every sun team has Gene.
  19. Electrolyte

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    I've used Rotom-H in Sun before, and I think that while it might be average it's not worth the teamslot. It is horrendously weak to Stealth Rock, something Sun teams already have problems with, and the fact that it's constantly switching in and out really presses that problem down. Sure, you can add a spinner, and you should add a spinner, but why add the extra burden when it really doesn't give you maximum benefit? Why not just use a different pivot? Rain can be countered easily by better pokemon that aren't weak to SR.

    It's Fire STAB also kind of sucks. Overheat isn't a move you ought to sweep with, and being choiced locked into a move that just gets weaker and weaker makes you great setup bait for DDancers and Calm Minders. You could opt for not-choice, but Rotom-H isn't adept for bulk either, especially because of its SR weakness and the fact that Rotom-W is just better in that regard.

    I do have to give it a hands up though, because it does dead counter Genesect. But that's really it.
  20. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Yes.

    And I still know that of "earth power genesect", "natural cure scizor" and "keldeo with HP Ghost over Surf". Genesect can't have Earth Power, Scizor can't have Natural Cure and if you aren't using a Water-attack on Keldeo, you are using it wrong.
  21. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Genesect gets Hidden Power Ground. Scizor gets Natural Gift. And its biased to say that Keldeo must run a water type attack, I've used the SubCM set without a water STAB just fine, and the sheer surprise on Jellicent is enough to use it. Also, on things surf hits (like Lando) are 2HKO'ed anyways by HP Ghost at +1 / +2, so you don't miss much in the loss of surf, considering a lot more will wall the SubCM set. (Oh, and HP Ghost also OHKOs your standard Techniloom at +2 who thinks I run surf, js).
  22. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    You have typed "Earth Power" before:

    Also, from what you said above: It's not Natural Cure. It's Natural Gift. Natural Cure is an ability that lets you cure status on the switch, you are mistaking Natural Gift with Natural Cure.
  23. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Abilities have always made the pokemon. That's why Excadrill was too good, that's why Blaziken was too good. Politoed and Ninetales are no exception, who are both actually good pokemon aside from setting up weather now. Specs Toed hits like a truck, and LO Tales has some pretty good opportunities to sweep one or two pokemon. I think you're focusing on a segment rather than the whole. We've lived with Sand for three generations that's why we're more accepting of it.
  24. alkinesthetase

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    see now when people say specs politoed is good regardless of the fact that it's a weather starter, something really just does not click in my head. keldeo has more special attack than toed and can also wear specs. yet toed is probably still wearing specs more often than keldeo is, considering their usage in OU. the only reason toed is a good specs user at all is because when it's in play, rain is also usually in play, which means your water moves are getting a boost and suddenly they pack a lot more punch. can keldeo claim to do that? well if it's not in rain, then not really, eh? i'm sure keldeo would murder terrakion to have drizzle as its DW ability. toed is still only viable because of rain. it is a shit worthless pokemon that happens to get drizzle. the fact that you slapped specs on it does not change the fact that it would still be shit worthless if not for the rain that came with it. if you used damp specs politoed in OU, you'd be laughed at.

    as for LO tales, ew no. offensive ninetales is absolutely terrible - ANY offensive ninetales. all other weather starters can take its stab easily; the only teams you'll beat are weatherless and ninetales is fodder against them anyway; lead with it and sack it off. bulky sunny day sets do a much much better job of surviving against weather teams which is what ninetales has great difficulty doing. ninetales's job in life is basically "start sun and struggle to survive long enough that a trapper can eliminate the other weather".

    and finally as for rotom-h, it is a pokemon cursed by misfortune of a mindblowingly awesome typing and a general lack of anything else good. it is really not a very good solution to genesect. anyone who wants to beat genesect should have hazards up, yes? but anyone who intends to abuse uturn with genesect should have hazards of their own. if you come in on genesect with rotom-w you will lose in the long run because your stealth rock weakness will kill you; eighth vs quarter, you die faster. it's unfortunate because levitating electric/fire is a really awesome typing, but you just can't outlast genesect when you're hazard weak. the real answer to genesect is hazards, and rotom doesn't do a much better job of forcing genesect out than heatran does (barring random HP ground). rotom-h is also not a great defensive mon in general because of a rather lacking support movepool. it makes a solid check to genesect easily - you can switch in on anything it does - but if you intend to use it to hard counter genesect, you'll be the one dying first. in comparison, heatran has neutrality to stealth rock, which makes SO much difference in fighting genesect, and it can bring its own SR to the party (it can even roar if it predicts the uturn to fuck up momentum trolls). admittedly though heatran can be deeply dented by a surprise HP ground, where as rotom-h will kinda just chuckle and click overheat
  25. Lavos Spawn

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    No, we're not more accepting of Sand because we've had it for three gens. We are more accepting of Sand because currently it is the least broken of the three viable weathers. I don't know how you can say we're best buddies with Sand when we've already banned the Pokemon that utilizes it best, Excadrill.

    The reason Sand is getting zero hate right now is because it pales in comparison to the insanely broken things that Rain and Sun have to offer. Hell, we've already nerfed Rain with the Aldaron's Proposal ban, and it's still going strong as the most used weather with such weapons like Tornadus-T and Keldeo ruining stall's viability in the metagame. Sun is arguably even worse than Rain, because it's the only one of the three prominent weathers that still has its best double-Speed ability users legal (Chlorophyll/Sand Rush/Swift Swim). You can make an argument for Stoutland and Sandslash being decent, but they're nowhere near as good as Growth + Giga Drain Venusaur, and that's a fact.

    In summation, the reason we're not seeing the massive amount of complaints about Sand that Sun and Rain are receiving isn't because it's been around longer, but simply because it's not nearly as bad as the other two.

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