1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 12 CAP 1 - Art Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 10, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,524
    This is the moment we've all been waiting for!

    It is time for art.

    A "Final Art Submission" will consist of two things - a "Main Design" and "Supporting Material". A Main Design is the only required element of a Final Art Submission, Supporting Material is optional.

    CAP1 so far:

    Typing: Flying/Fighting

    Main Design


    The Main Design is intended to follow the same general posing and layout as the "Official Art" for existing ingame pokemon. The Main Design is the definitive design for a given pokemon and should be suitable for display in the CAP Pokedex section of the upcoming CAP Website, and any other CAP propaganda where a picture of the pokemon is needed. As such, the design should be "plain" -- a basic rendering of the pokemon itself, with no extra frills or artistic embellishment. The comparison to "Official Pokemon Art" is only applicable to the basic content of the Main Design; it does not imply ANY standards or guidelines regarding artistic style or rendering technique.

    The following rules of content must be followed for the Main Design:

    • It must be a single pose of a single pokemon. No other pokemon can be included for any reason. Only one pose rendering is allowed in the picture.
    • It must consist of the pokemon on a plain white background. No additional background detail or settings may be included. No additional background colors or patterns are allowed.
    • The entire pokemon must be in full view, and no part of the pokemon can be cropped or obscured by any design elements other than parts of the pokemon itself.
    • No props, action effects, move effects, environment effects or additional objects can be rendered on or around the pokemon. If a prop is part of the pokemon's basic design (ie Farfetch'd Stick), then it is acceptable.
    • Any 2D full color digital or traditional media may be used. 3D media are not allowed.
    • It must have a distinguishable outline on the entire subject in contrast to the background. No part of the design can be blurred into the background or blended into the background.
    • It must be no larger than 640 pixels on either axis, no smaller than 320 pixels on either axis, and must be in a compressed digital format. Uncompressed bitmaps and/or high-resolution images are not allowed.
    • It must be a digital rendering or a scan of a traditional drawing. No camera pictures are allowed.
    • It must be an original artwork by the person making the submission. Lifts, swipes, copies, or alterations of other artists' work are not allowed.
    The rules for Main Designs will be strictly enforced. Do not make comparisons to ingame pokemon designs or to past CAP designs, in order to determine if your design is in compliance with these rules. Some ingame Pokemon designs and past CAP designs are NOT CONFORMANT with the current CAP art submission rules, and emulating those designs is not an acceptable excuse for breaking the strict interpretation of the current rules.

    Supporting Material

    While the rules for the Main Design are somewhat rigid -- there are almost no rules when it comes to Supporting Material. Action scenes, movement studies, interaction with other pokemon, animations, sculptures, cartoon strips -- anything goes! Also non-art supporting material is also allowed. This includes detailed descriptions of the art, background data, stories, etc.

    All supporting art and information must be related to the main design in some way. This rule is intended to prevent artists from posting unrelated art, in an effort to gain more attention or promote other designs or artworks.

    Final Submission Post

    All artists must make a Final Submission Post in order to be considered for the Art Poll. The post must be titled "Final Submission". The post should have the Main Design at the top, and Supporting Material (if applicable) below it. All supporting art must be included as links or as linked thumbnails no larger than 150x150. Do not include full images of supporting art in the Final Submission.

    Only make ONE Final Submission Post. Artists are welcome to work on multiple designs and get feedback from the community, but only one design can be submitted for final consideration. If you wish to alter any aspect of your Final Submission, then edit your post. Do not make a new one, even if you delete your original post. Any delete + repost will be treated as bumping, and subject to moderation.

    General Posting Rules

    • Artists can post any work-in-progress (WIP) artwork, in order to solicit feedback or to help develop ideas. WIP artwork does not need to conform to the standards of a Main Design. It can be in any medium or stage of completion. But, it must be related to an original art design by the poster.

    • Do not spam the thread with excessive amounts of artwork. There are more specific rules listed below, but this rule serves as a catch-all for anyone that attempts to circumvent the exact rules mentioned below. Apparently, some artists think they will improve their chances in the poll if they overload the submission thread with their artwork. Some artists don't realize that they are "crowding out" other submissions by spamming the thread. Whatever the reason -- don't do it, or you will be moderated.

    • No post can contain more than 800x800 pixels of included art, and no single picture can be larger than 640 pixels on either axis. If an artist wishes to post art in excess of the 800x800 limit, they should post links to the additional art or use linking thumbnails. Each thumbnail can be no larger than 150x150. Any number of thumbnails can be included in a post, even if the sum of the thumbnails exceeds 800 pixels. Linked art can be of any size.

    • Do not make multiple art posts over a short period of time. If you do so, it will be moderated as an attempt to circumvent the art size limits mentioned above.

    • Do not post inconsequential "updates" to previously posted art. If you have made a significant change, and have not posted art recently -- feel free to post an update to the thread. But, insignificant changes will be moderated as an attempt to spam the thread with your art.

    • All posted art must be in a compressed digital format. Uncompressed bitmaps or high-resolution images will be deleted.

    • No art submissions should be modified by others without the explicit permission of the original artists.

    • Using other submissions as "inspiration" for an original artwork is allowed. However, "stealing" of designs is prohibited.

    • Do not post to state your intended design. Such posts are a weak attempt to "reserve" an idea, and serve no constructive purpose. If you aren't going to post an actual design, then don't tell us that you are "working on it".

    • No bumping or begging. If your design received little attention or commentary, don't bump it. Even worse, don't make a post begging for feedback. There are PLENTY of eyes viewing every post in the thread. If your design is any good, people WILL comment on it. If your design gets no feedback, then your design is not very good. The silence IS the feedback. Take the hint.

    • No posting of design ideas in search of an artist. This is an art submission thread, not an idea submission thread. If you can't draw, then don't post your idea. If you really want to see your idea submitted, then commission an artist and ask them to post it. But don't solicit artists here.

    • No posting of art or pictures intended to "give ideas" to artists to draw a design. This includes pictures of real life animals, character artwork from other games, or even Pokemon artwork. It spams up the thread and detracts from the original art submissions. It is acceptable for artists making a submission to post their inspirational references as part of their Supporting Material.

    • Do not declare any artwork as "the winner", "is clearly going to win", or similar. It's fine to post praise or support for an artwork, but don't make a statement indicating the results of a poll that has not been conducted. Such posts are insulting to all the other competing artists.

    • Do not post that a design does or does not "look like a Pokemon". Such comments are unable to be substantiated or refuted, and leads to never-ending bitching and bickering. We don't care if it is "just your opinion" -- it's a bullshit comment. There is no artistic style guide for Pokemon, so don't act like you know what a Pokemon should look like. If you like or dislike a design, that's fine -- just say that. But don't reference some mythical Pokemon style rules as "reasoning" for your opinion. It serves no purpose other than to troll the thread.

    • Do not post that a design "looks like a Digimon". It's a cheap shot, and you know it. See rule above.

    • Do not post questions asking for help in making a submission. If you don't know how to draw, ink, color, scan, save, compress, crop, thumbnail, or link an artwork -- don't ask for help here. This isn't a tutorial thread. By the way -- Google is your friend.

    • Do not ask when this thread will close. CAP threads do not follow a set timetable. If you want to know the overall sequence of events in a CAP, to get an idea of how long you have to submit a design -- then go to the CAP website and read the process guide. It's pretty easy to see the art poll coming up in relation to the other threads in the project.
    Artists, good luck, have fun, and do your best!
  2. TheMutant

    TheMutant o^o
    is an Artist Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    126
    Got an early start this time +.+
    BEHOLD!

    [​IMG]

    I may have cut my own feet from under me by not conforming to the usual Fighting-Type standards (ie: massive fists, usually humanshape), but hey. O: I decided to go for something slightly different than the typical brawler or martial artist mon- a more ancient-warriorish take, and heavily birdshape (People picked Flying first, after all). I have ideas for the color scheme, but I’ll take suggestions/opinions on the design itself first (though feel free to make color suggestions as well).

    Critiques or suggestions on how to make it better are gleefully welcomed! Oh, and recommendations on what kinds of alternate poses/scenes you’d like to see in the supplementary art section, too!

    Oh, and look here http://i.imgur.com/UOyfF.jpg if you want to see my original concept. :P I really don’t like it, but feel free to comment on it. On the off chance it gets wildly more support than my other design… but I hope I can make the first one more to your guys’ liking. :3 armorburd!

    EDIT: In response to concerns, I don't think the design will look very Steel- I plan on making the armor bronze and not very shiny, for one, and there's not as much of it as might seem apparent, from just looking at the lineart. Obviously, it'll be up to you lot to decide what makes or breaks it! I'll post an updated version and maybe some color comps in a few hours.
  3. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    912
  4. Tayla

    Tayla

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    702
    Flying IS the primary typing, like you said. I quite like it. It's an owl isn't it? This is supposed to be a Flying type (birdlike?) with Fighting type qualities, so a design on the lines of your hits the nail on the head for me. :) It's great so far.
  5. Fatecrashers

    Fatecrashers acta est fabula
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    4,997
    Just posting a WIP thingy looking for feedback.

    [​IMG]

    Alright, so this design is based on the Crane Fighting Style in Shaolin Martial Arts, which I think is really suited to this whole Flying / Fighting concept.

    It's not as bulky looking as the typical Fighting-type, but then, as a primary Flying-type, I think that's to be expected.

    CAP1 is about momentum, about strategy, not pure sweeping, so I've drawn it here to give off a more sensei-like vibe. I'm open to any poses however, a vicious wings-fully-outspread pose I think will suit this design too.

    The color scheme I had in mind will be based on the real life crane - red, black, white, and yellow. Really elementary, really simple. I'm willing to consider to other suggestions of course.

    Feel free to post what you think about this design, how I can improve it etc.

    Ideas about supplementary material will be welcome as well.

    So...comments?

    EDIT: Yeah, for what it's worth, I didn't realise Wyverii had already done a crane/stork design
  6. Alchemator

    Alchemator my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,803
    I like the general idea of the design, but I feel that it could turn out kind of plain. To avoid this you could either go for decoration (maybe a helmet?) or use a more vibrant colour scheme and/or pattern.

    TheMutant:
    Nice wings. The feet are rather elongated though!

    Dracoyoshi8: The bottom half seems slightly out of proportion with the top, but I like the idea. I'm looking forward to the supporting material should you go with that concept. I'm a massive fan of rocket snail, but that doesn't really fit Flying/Fighting unfortunately.

    Just a few quick comments, hope I helped!
  7. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,806
    P.S. This isn't in the rules yet because I can't edit the on-site .txt file for the OPs, but whatever you do, do not include pre-evolutions in your supporting material! No one has actually done this yet, but I want to make this as clear as possible. Once the art is decided, we'll have actual pre-evolution stages and, if decided to be a go, pre-evolution art stages as well. Keep that in mind!

    Anyway, that said...

    I'm not necessarily a fan of the style of "bird" for this CAP. There is a lot of leeway with this typing to be creative, and lots of ways a Pokemon can be Flying-type without blatantly being a birdie. I'll probably end up being very fond of things that try to be slightly more creative than that, although God knows I don't want another genie. That said, I also sort of have a distaste for armor on the design, because armor is very suggestive to me of Steel typing. If you can pull this off in some clever way without it looking like metal plates slapped on a normal Pokemon design, then rock on, but I'm not a huge fan of what TheMutant has posted, for instance.

    Good luck to all the participants!
  8. Yllnath

    Yllnath

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    304
    @Fatecrashers, when I saw your design, it reminded me straight of Wyverii's Stork, which was one of my favourite designs in quite some CAPs. I like your concept already because of it :)
  9. Unlimited Breadsticks

    Unlimited Breadsticks

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2009
    Messages:
    73
    e: ^^^^^^ craaaaaaap didn't even realize

    Here's some really, really rough concept art for something I'd been thinking of.

    [image too large]
  10. barty the beetle

    barty the beetle

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    89
    Well, I'm not the best artist out there, but I want to contribute whatever I can to help this project! Here's my WIP:
    [​IMG]
    If possible, I'd like some C&C. Even if it is bad. It's one of my first, so the first draft must not be perfect. Also, I know one wing is larger than the other. It was an accident

    (EDIT: Thanks for the feedback, but now I see how much I need to improve just to have a SLIGHT chance of getting chosen...)
  11. Sambobz

    Sambobz

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    93
    thought I would give some support to the idea of a crane martial artist concept
    [​IMG]
    still not clear on the rules for supporting art, am I allowed to post supporting artwork for other people and still post my own main art?
  12. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    2,618
    barty the beetle: Peacocks are an interesting concept-you might want to find a good artist to commission who isn't doing a CAP 1 art project of their own, though. You might also want to have a little more distinguishing it from peacocks, though-include other ideas. Don't just make it a peacock-make it a peacock that expresses more than just a peacock.

    Also, I agree with smallvizier below: it needs more description.

    In THAT case... (also any line issues will be fixed later...)

    [​IMG]

    Meet CAP1, codenamed Coatldaxel.

    I guessed that Flying/Fighting would be the type this CAP would use after we got Flying-and one of my first thoughts were pterosaurs, specifically the gigantic Quetzalcoatlus. Why pterosaurs? (Isn't Aerodactyl already representative of the species?)

    I once read an interesting hypothesis in regards to how large pterosaurs flied. Basically, whereas most birds lose total density when evolving larger (which leads to such evolutionary innovations as hollow-but-weaker bones,) the theory goes that large pterosaurs increased their muscle mass and bone strength in order to be able to generate more lift with each flap-and according to the hypothesis, this is even how large pterosaurs got off the ground, by pushing off the ground with raw power. Therefore-why not have the immensely powerful wing muscles of a pterosaur adapted to a secondary purpose of combat, I.E. a Fighting-type?

    Additionally, I added emphasis from two other things sharing Quetzalcoatlus' nomenclature-the Quetzal (i.e. the tail,) and Quetzalcoatl itself (the neck-pterosaurs lacked feathers.)

    As for momentum...would you want to turn and flee at the sight of a giant pterosaur that can punch you in the face? Thought so.

    BTW, are we allowed to post hypothetical prevo art, but not include it as supporting art for the final submission? Just for a feel to the concept? Can we post hypothetical prevo art outside of the submission thread?


    Comments and criticism (particularly of the constructive kind) would be appreciated.
  13. smallvizier

    smallvizier

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    You say you're not the best artist out there - but there's more to art than drawing. If you really want to capture someone's imagination, you need to give us some context as well.

    Look at the posts by Fatecrasher and Tortferngatr. They don't just show an image, they tell you what it was inspired by, and how it fits the concept. That makes them a lot easier to engage with, to visualise - and to comment on.

    So: tell us what bird your picture is based on, and why you think it reflects a Flying/Fighting pokemon. Tell us how you chose your pose, and whether there's any significance to the design on the end of its arm - are those fake eyes?

    My opinion is that it looks a bit static: I think you might be better off with a different pose. Also, you've clearly drawn it on a computer. You might also want to experiment with drawing on paper, then scanning/photographing it. Find what works for you.

    I love your idea, and I'm also quite taken by your blocky visual style. It looks almost like you're drawing a picture of a 3D model...

    My 'constructive criticism' bit is for the wings/arms. I assume your pterosaur is grounded in the picture (its 'hands' are on the same level as its feet, anyway), and it just doesn't ring true to me. What it's missing is elbows. Take a look at this.

    Apart from bettering mirroring a real pterosaur's skeleton, and getting that distinctive 'hunched' look they seem to have, I also reckon adding elbows would let you emphasise its strong, muscled wings that are such a key feature of your concept.
  14. WPS

    WPS

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2010
    Messages:
    47
    *Comes out of lurking*

    [image too large] Oh come on, 4 pixels over!
    Cropped image:
    [​IMG]

    A few concept sketches:
    1. A flying fighting type should float like a butterfly, sting like a bee (or their pokequivalents), so I came up with this. It's not very detailed currently, but it could become more so. I think the design looks too bug type though.
    2. What's a fighting style that hasn't been explored yet? Headbutting! A fusion between a wood pecker and the type of brawler who would fight anyone, upto and including a wall, with no better excuse then it looked at it funny. My favourite design.
    3. Flying fighting > paratrooper! I tried to think of a design that would be quirky and original and I came up with this. I'm not sure about the hand weapons though, should I go with fists instead?
    4. The idea of something that flew with nunchucks sounded better in my head, and I don't think a helicopter is the best design, but it was on the same sheet as the rest of them, so I posted it for your entertainment or something.

    I also tried to draw a cassowary, the worlds most dangerous bird, apparently able to sever an arm with it's talons, but it ended up looking like a misproportioned turkey...

    Please tell me if you think any of these designs are worth going into more detail with.
  15. KoA

    KoA The very best...
    is an Artist Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,659
    Ok so I've settled on this general design for this Cap. When I thought of something Fighting and Flying typed, I immediately thought of something that could deliver punishing assaults from the skies above: Gargoyles.

    Do mind the rather terribly (and messily) drawn pic, it's the furthest thing from a completed pic, but it gets down the general ideas I wanted to come across in the design. Somewhat built, powerful legs, (for delivering punishing physical assaults, which is generally the preferred weapon of flying creatures anyway) and 2 sets of wings. (Mostly for aesthetic appeal, but the second set of wings offers more maneuverability)

    Several drafts of GargyMon have been doodled out, and I've even adapted some ninjesque elements onto his design. Again, purely aesthetic appeal, but it also fits the overall purpose nicely.

    Anywho, lol sketch number 1:

    [image too large]

    The bulk of tonight will be refining him more.
  16. Doran Dragon

    Doran Dragon

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,182
    I'm thinking of making a cap based off the Philippine Eagle. My submission will be in the same form as my last one. wish me luck :D
  17. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,287
    Gotta get in before the floodtide

    [​IMG]

    Scanner's acting up, so the picture quality is atrocious, but I think most of the main details survived. It's based on the Hebrew beast of the sky, Ziz (as was Rayquaza, but this one is slightly more faithful, perhaps). God, I hate working with fur (and feathers), but I like this concept quite a bit. Now I just need to start working on poses a bit more.

    Comments?
  18. KematianMarwolaeth

    KematianMarwolaeth

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Though I am not an artist myself, I have been thinking of what the Flying/Fighting pokemon could be, and whilst I've had a few ideas, one that kept coming back was the rooster.

    This may be because of the fact roosters are used in "Cockfights", which I guess brings the fighting flavour to it, and it's pretty obvious it would be based off of a bird.

    As I started this small post with, I am no artist. I just thought I would throw my idea out to any interested artists.
  19. paintseagull

    paintseagull pink wingull
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    876
    So psyched for this, here's the first concept/idea I'm going to try and develop. It's very heavily based on a Sifaka Lemur right now, or maybe a Sifaka Lemur evolved even further towards leaping/jumping/gliding. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this idea. I'm thinking I'll probably need to develop it away from a straight-up Lemur and towards the pokemon concept we're working on here. Also, colours are just a suggestion of a pattern for now.

    [​IMG]
  20. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    2,618
    WPS: The first one seems to draw a little too much bug inspiration-and while we have Gligar, Gliscor, and Drapion, it seems difficult to imagine as anything other than a bug. I would drop that one-it looks a little too Bug/Fighting for my tastes.

    The second one...I've had the idea for a woodpecker before, but it's still a fairly awesome idea and you've executed it better than my 7th grade self could. (I'm a sophomore in high school right now BTW.) Flesh this out, definitely.

    The paratrooper is fairly creative. I'm also watching Band of Brothers at school right now, so I'm also fairly sympathetic to the idea of one. I do agree fists would work better on this guy.

    The helicopter is Crazy Awesome. Flesh it out if you have time-it doesn't seem like it would win IMO, but hey, it's still awesome.

    So in short: ditch the butterfly/bee, keep woodpecker and paratrooper, flesh out Nunchukopter if you have time.

    KoA: Epic win idea-though you might want to have a fallback sub-design given the distinct physical-attack bias. For example-if CAP1 got a stat bias/spread that implied a higher special attack than attack, I would give Coatldaxel some more features from its Quetzalcoatl sub-inspiration as to imply a more mystic feel and thus higher special attack.

    bugmaniacbob:
    Good concept-I look forward to seeing it fleshed out.

    paintseagull: Your concept is good, but as you said, making it less like a real-life lemur and more like a Pokemon would be productive to the concept.

    Having Microsoft PowerPoint 2007 as your best option for drawing something kind of forces a vectored, blocky style or a Cubist style. I'm getting better at drawing IRL and in PowerPoint alike, but I'm hardly perfect.

    I tried to be faithful to the pterosaur body, hence the long neck Aerodactyl lacks-though I admit having Conkeldurr as yet another subconscious inspiration. I'll probably make the body more faithful to pterosaurs when I make Coatldaxel V2.
  21. Paras Hilton

    Paras Hilton

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    52
    Hey ya folks, it has been much too long!

    Some sketches of my current concept for this CAP:

    [​IMG]

    The basic idea being it has to fly to use its legs as fists. Wings and face stylized to resemble a bandana and luchador mask. Not much more to it than that!
  22. CyzirVisheen

    CyzirVisheen Am I poplar yet?
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    691
    [​IMG]
    Quick sketch of a concept, thinking up a few more. This is primarily based on Hermes, with the wing hat, wing feet, and body shaped to resemble the Cacudeus, with a bit of Harpy mixed in.
  23. pkmn-taicho321

    pkmn-taicho321

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,717
    [​IMG]

    Sort of based it off a Chinese General and a Quail. Just a WIP right now for QC. I'll be drawing up a few other things. Hopefully one of them isn't a bird...
  24. Sambobz

    Sambobz

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    93
    I think cyzirvisheen has something pretty awesome to start with. maybe a little more humanish shaped but not too humanish though.
    the wing hat and feet sound awesome! the swirly things remind me of the ones on infernape.
  25. Onetwobanana

    Onetwobanana

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Seconding this, cyzirvisheen has made my favorite thus far. I'd like to see it in a slightly more aggressive pose.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)