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CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 3 -(Secondary Type Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 8, 2011.

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  1. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    So far it seems poison is the most supported type, but I don't like it as a STAB. Fighting on the other hand gives you a more threatening STAB which I think is necessary against offensive sand teams.
    what does poison do against a team of: Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Reunculus, Landorus, Excadrill and scizor? I mean sure you get the quad fighting resist but is it worth making it unable to handle ground, steel and rock pokemon?
  2. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Uh, guys, Psychic is actually good in BW. Reuniclus, Slowbro, Mew and Lati@s are great Pokémon in this metagame, and all of them actually use their Psychic STAB. So please consider this before bandwagoning Fighting.

    (This was for people who were going lolpsychic.)
  3. JGSabino

    JGSabino

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    IMO, the best secondary types are:


    Fighting - I really like the idea of a Fighting/Flying Pokémon. No SR weakness, good STABs, can check Doryuuzu and Roobushin... Indeed, Rankurusu would be a pain in the ass, but maybe It could take it with some lucky Air Slashes (SubSplit/Air Slash/Aura Sphere anyone?)...

    Water - Water/Flying is also an awesome combo, but Gyarados already makes a good job at intimidating powerful enemies like . The only way to differenciate this CAP from Gyarados is giving him good SpA and... Butterfly Dance, Surf and Hurricane? Meh, I would still prefer my old Red Gyarados if I want a MomentumMon.

    Electric - Electric/Fighting is really good, but it would be outclassed by Zapdos if defensive and Borutorosu if offensive...

    Ground - Same old Shit. Hi there, Gliscor and Landlos!

    Poison - Interesting type, I like it because I already tested Crobat and even not being a Wall, it has awesome resistances.
  4. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    ...Okay?

    Not having weaknesses isn't a goal of this CAP.
  5. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    yeah but we can't resist everything, and frankly psychic is one of the easiest type attacks to predict as well as having no effect vs dark, and weak to pursuit. In short we have tyranitar and scizor who rape psychic pokes why does our CAP need to be able to answer one of the more easily answered types?

    Edit: I just thought of this, we could design it as an angel if we did choose fighting as the secondary type. you have to admit it would be pretty cool if this plays out in favor if fighting.
  6. UnhandledException

    UnhandledException

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    There's also the fact that its rare for more than one or two of the aforementioned psychic type pokemon to be present on a team(to prevent the team from becoming ttar weak), hence making the opponent choose that specific pokemon to go to when the CAP appears(predictable reaction). An intelligent user takes this opportunity to get his pursuit user out and destroys their psychic type(gains momentum)
  7. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    It is quickly becoming apparent that people are not heeding this advice. I am still seeing a lot of typing combinations being kicked around in the abstracts, and extremely general unsupported statements being thrown around.

    A good example of what I mean about talking generally about typing would be,

    I actually agree with what smallvizier actually posted, but he left it in the theoretical. At the stage of secondary typing, I'd like to hear less about how well a type combination switches into Fighting attacks, and more about how it switches into Scrafty (which commonly carries Fight, Dark AND Ice attacks!). CAP1 may be immune to Ground, but if it's weak to Rock or 4x to Ice, it won't be countering Landorus any time soon.

    A good example of what I mean by unsupported statements would be,

    What makes Psychic "lol"? This is a pretty strong statement considering that many of the best anti-metagame Pokemon (Reuniclus, Mew, Slowbro, Deoxys-s) use Psychic STAB frequently.
  8. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Not quite understanding the tone or purpose of this post. I mean, considering I've been backing Water/Flying of all things... All I'm saying is, anyone who supports Fighting (or Poison) should make sure it's because it's a good typing to pair with Flying, not because of some unsupported and false claim that Psychic isn't a threatening type.
  9. Gerard

    Gerard

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    I want to add that Poison also has a mayor bonus, poison attacks are a magnet for steel types, and steels wall both of it's stabs which if you want to make your oponnet predictable, it acomplish that, also theres the obvious toxic, you can poison every foe poke except for steels (and other poison) whic helps making a steel type coming a mile away, Rainuculus (or whaterver it's name is write) is also a good "counter" (being inmune to toxic damage and strong to poison) which makes a double swich to tyranitar/dark poke way more viable, this would acomplish to help with the momentum going for your side

    This type would be strong against the main stab of all fighting tyes ( a very common type this gen) and it would scare them out, some of the top pokes are still not going to be running any time soon, this thing is not gonna scare dory and if he already has a SD (and even if not since all dory's have a Rock attack) this thing is great agains fighting types but week against steel, ground is probably not gonna be running away and other treaths like scizor and tyranitar don't have to worry about it so i'm a little worried about it being able to forec switch outs, if we're looking to get the momentum and regain it we should be able to force the most set-up sweepers, and until now i'm only seing it able to force breeloom (since even other fighting types might wanna stay and set-up to kill it effectively)

    I have read about fighting and i have to say i like the fact that yes, no one in his right mind would let something like dory or cond in something they know they can OHKO or 2HKO while being OHKO themself by a SE move, this also keeps the weeknesses to psyquic of posion making a predictable change to a psyquic and removing the steel type as a treath, and retaining the predictive switch to sweepers with HP ice or an electric move, and making the stabbed options for flying/ice SR week for the most part, the SR neutrality is a a nice plus

    This would make it 4x resistant to bug making it take laughable damage from U-turns, retain the fighting resistance and it would efectively scare treaths like Dory, Scrafty, Terakion, Tyranitar, Lucario, (whit it's Fighting STAB) all of them need to set up to effectively sweep entire teams and Breloom, Virizon, Condrelurr, etc... (whit the flying one), it should be noted that h e could also come in Nattorei, and could put a sub (to avoid leech seed) and kill him with Fighting STAB, this makes a change to something like jelly or a psyquic type predictable and like i said before the same swich into Stabbed options make them loose 25% of their life for the most part, even someone that resist their stabs (like zapdos ans the electric genie) in weekn to SR so this could really help mantaing momentum and slowly driving your foe to death
  10. Limewire

    Limewire PRESS R TO WIN
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    Steel / Flying seems like a good option to me. This combination of typing could allow CAP 1 to switch into some common top-tier threats such as Virizion, Excadrill, Latios (beware HP Fire, though), Reuinclus, Terakion and Landorus and take, at worst, neutral damage from their attacks. If the goal of CAP 1 is to regain momentum, then it is important to figure out a way to switch into threats like those and start to re-gain control of the battle, which is why I put support in Steel.
  11. taziathegreat

    taziathegreat

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    Wouldnt a poison flying pokemon basically be crobat plus ?
    Not that that bad thing but crobats himself has been good at building momentum himself
  12. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Pokemon with the same typing can be vastly different. Look at Tropius and Shaymin-s, or Jirachi and Bronzong, or Groudon and Donphan, or even Staraptor and Togekiss. I believe the only way that same typing should play a factor in our decision is if a type combination has already been explored very completely (like Fire/Fighting) or would open huge team holes due to use with very common OU Pokemon of the same type (like Ground/Flying, no one wants to see teams with THREE Ground/Flying types).
  13. Attract

    Attract

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    Fighting seems like the way to go. It packs resistances to common attack types (Bug, Fighting, Ground) while still being neutral to Rock, a common coverage type. This should allow the CAP to come in on a resisted hit and be able to take off-STAB neutral hits enough to force the switch, gaining momentum. Psychic and Electric are very predictable weaknesses, both having types that are immune to them. Also, many users of these types use them as STAB moves (Thundurus, Reuniclus), so they become vastly less powerful if an immunity removes their STABs via a switch. The Ice weakness is slightly worse, however there are few Pokemon that can hit amazingly hard with this type that are not weak to Fighting (subjective).

    As mentioned, the STABs of Flying/Fighting are nearly unresisted in the metagame, and hit supereffectively on pokes seen on all types of teams such as Excadrill in Sand, Ludicolo in Rain, Venusaur in Sun, Chansey in Stall, and Ferrothorn in just about everywhere. This means the STABs will be relevant regardless of the opponent's play style, and thus meaning CAP 1 can help retake momentum regardless of match-up. The CAP as Flying/Fighting will not have to switch as often as Poison/ or Steel/Flying types, other mentioned types. Not being able to touch the opponent at all (Poison vs. Reuniclus/Steels) forces you to switch, which will lose you your momentum. In the case of Fighting/Flying, it will prove to be a more useful type combo that can switch in just as easily as Poison on what matters, and that presents predictable but powerful STABs which cannot be ignored by the opponent.
  14. CuteandScary

    CuteandScary

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    Fighting would be great! I mean yay fighting, and if we're thinking defensive Vs offensive momentum we could give it roost or drain punch. booth prove to be pretty bad ass recovery methods. It also gives it pretty decent stab options.
  15. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Well, here's my reasoning on various things:

    Even x4 SR weak isn't world-ending:
    It's far from ideal, but if the type provides many other benifits, SR is easy enough to prevent in Gen 5, and SR isn't even as common as in Gen 4 anyway. Volcarona is x4 SR weak, but you still see it around. Moltres is x4 SR weak, but dominated UU in Gen 4. Ho-Oh is x4 SR weak, but is Uber.

    The type should not reduce the resistance to Fighting
    Between Conkeldurr, Breloom, Tonadus, Thunderous, Machamp, Blaziken, Virizion, Lucario, Terrakion, and more, fighting type moves are all over the place. The fighting resistance HAS to stay.

    This rules out Steel, Dark, Normal, Rock, and Ice

    The type should not try to re-do something that is already done:
    Looking at you, Gliscor, you're pretty good at momentum as it is

    Ground is out, we'll just wind up re-making Gliscor, or a specially based Gliscor

    The secondary type should not comound weakness to Water or Dragon, if possible, it should provide a resistance, or a way to combat them
    These are also common attacking types. We don't want a weakness to them. lease note, there are two abilities which grant immunity to Water.

    Dragon is out, Fire is Out

    This, by my reconing, leaves:
    Bug, Electric, Fighting, Ghost, Grass, Poision, Water and Psychic, as well as Pure Flying, which will probobly deny Roost.

    Bug:

    Pros:
    x4 Resistance to Fighting
    STAB U-Turn
    Generally gets useful status moves

    Cons:
    WAY overused type [Although, no good pokemon have it]
    Weaknesses everywhere
    x4 SR weak

    Overall: Probobly safe to rule Bug out

    Electric:
    Pros:
    STAB is Super Effective on Water-Types
    Volt Change
    Thunder Wave
    Adds NO weaknesses, cancels out weakness to Electric, adds Steel and Flying Resistance.

    Cons:
    Ground-types can switch in free, includeing on Volt Change, stopping mometum
    Little to hamper Dragons
    Zapdos exists, as does Thunderous

    Overveiw: Good on paper, but, Zapdos and Thunderous both already do this job rather well...

    Fighting:
    Pros:
    Fighting is a good STAB, and has excellent coverage with Flying
    Provides SR Neutrality, and Rock neutrality

    Cons:
    Provides no resistances that are really useful in the current metagame, except Rock
    Provides a weakness to Psychic
    Fighting has little in the way of Momentum moves, besides possibly Overhead Throw for Phazeing.

    Overveiw: Good for offensive based-momentum, bad if want defense

    Ghost:
    Pros:
    Provides Immunity to Fighting and Normal
    Decent STAB
    Some decent support moves

    Cons:
    Gengar exists, he already does Mometum rather well, same with Dusclops, to a degree
    Not very useful resistances brought to the table, Bug and Posion?
    Ghost and Dark weakness gained, both somewhat common attacking types, as coverage moves on Special attackers [And Tyranitar]

    Overveiw: Solid choice all around, but faces still competition from Gengar for offense, and Dusclops for Defense.

    Grass:
    Pros:
    Support, Support EVERYWHERE
    Provides Water resistance
    Provides Electric Neutrality

    Cons:
    Dreadful STAB
    x4 Ice Weak, Fire weak, Flying Weak, LOLPOISION weak, Bug Neutral

    Overveiw: So-So, IMO. The merits of support, such as status and Aromatheraphy, are heavily contested by the cons...

    Poision:
    x4 Fighting Resistance, x4 Bug resist, x4 Grass Resist, x2 Poision Resist
    Particually good for defense
    Poision-types generally get somewhat wide movepools
    Toxic Spikes?

    Cons:
    Worst STAB in the game [Although, not *that* bad for neutral coverage ATM]
    Psychic weak

    Overveiw: If we want to take a defensive route, Poision may be worth a look, otherwise... no. Even with defense... Renkulus exists, and hits us SE. Yay?

    Water:
    Pros:
    Brings resistances to Fire, Water, Steel, and Ice Neutrality.
    Good STAB
    Some semi-support options, in things like Scald
    Generally gets Ice moves too

    Cons:
    x4 Electric weakness, Grass Neutrality
    Pretty useless for defense, just look at Mantine, he has the stats to be a special Skarmory!

    Psychic:
    Pros:x4 Fighting Resistance
    Psychic Resistance
    Some decent moves [Trick, Power Swap ect could be useful for trolling set-up pokemon, Trick Room]

    Cons:
    Dark Weak
    So-So STAB
    Bug Neutrality
    Ghost Weak
    Psychic/Flying isn't winning awards for coverage

    Overveiw: Has potential for a defensive CAP1. Offense, not so much.

    Summary:
    What secondary type I feel we should take depends on the direction we want to take this CAP.

    Offense:

    It's a punch-up between Ghost and Fighting here. Water and Electric make strong cases too.

    Defense:
    My personal favorite for defense is actually Psychic, due to Trick, Power Swap, Trick Room, ect. Poision and Water are also good options.

    Balanced:
    A balanced CAP1 could best do with Psychic, Water, Electric, or Grass typings.

    What do I think we should do?

    I think we should be taking CAP1 down a balanced route, so that it can effect momentum in a way to suit the team it is on. For this reason, I think that Water, Psychic, or Electric should be chosen. Water if we want a true 'Jack of all Trades', Psychic if we want a Defensive lean, and Electric for an offensive one.

    Also, looking into this thread again, I think an afterword is needed:

    PSYCHIC IS NOT A BAD ATTACKING TYPE ANYMORE. If you think Psychic is a bad attacking type, due to it being resisted by Steel and Psychic, and Darks having an immunity, bear in mind that Flying, Psychic and Bug resist Fighting, and Ghosts are immune. Fighting is generally seen as a great attacking type. MORE POKEMON CAN SWITCH ON THE 'GREAT' FIGHTING COMPARED TO 'LOLPSYCHIC'
  16. smallvizier

    smallvizier

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    I sort of figured that for the first page of the thread, we'd want to start in more general terms, and that the discussion would evolve as we went on. But okay, point taken: specifics now.

    I've picked out some pretty common Gen V pokemon (this should be enough for a start), and checked how the various type combinations fare against what I consider to be their most common attacks. Here are the pokemon I chose:

    Blaziken, Chandelure, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyrados, Heatran, Latios, Reuniclus, Scizor and Tyranitar.

    Then I checked whether they had an attack that would hit our type combinations super-effectively. Basically, which of our type combinations could sponge their attacks the most comfortably?

    Defensive ranking based on this sample:

    1st: Ground
    2nd: Electric
    3rd: Fighting
    4th: Water
    5th: Dark
    5th: Steel
    7th: Dragon
    8th: Poison
    9th: Ghost

    Detail of results:
    Show Hide

    9th place: Ghost

    Flying/Ghost is hit super-effectively by Tyranitar (Crunch), Garchomp (Stone Edge), Scizor (Pursuit +Technician), Excadrill (Rock Slide), Conkeldurr (Stone Edge), Gliscor (Fling), Chandelure (Shadow Ball), Gengar (Shadow Ball), Latios (Psyshock), Reuniclus (Psychic) and Gyrados (Stone Edge). It is hit neutrally by all the rest.

    Ouch! This typing is weak. I would hesitate to support it.

    8th place: Poison

    This suprised me at first: all those 4x resistances. Then I realised, how many pokemon actually have just Ground and Fighting moves? Very few. Flying/Poison is hit super-effectively by strong, common moves on Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Chandelure, Gengar, Latios, Reuniclus and Gyrados.

    Flying/Poison is great for switching in (4x res), but poor at staying in - unless your opponent is scarfed. But scarves don't seem so common these days... Garchomp and Chandelure might use them, but probably not the others.

    7th place: Dragon

    Flying/Dragon is hit super-effectively by Dragon moves. That means it gets hurt, in the current meta-game.

    It is hit super-effectively by strong, common moves on Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Heatran, Latios, Gyrados and Dragonite.

    Joint 5th: Steel

    I really expected Steel to be higher. I guess I got carried away with theorymon. When I thought about it, I realised most pokes are equipped to deal with Steels these days.

    In particular, Tyranitar (Fire Blast), Garchomp (Fire Fang), Heatran (Fire Blast), Chandelure (Overheat), Blaziken (Blaze Kick), Gengar (Thunderbolt), Latios (Thunderbolt) and Dragonite (Outrage) are more than ready to take on a Flying/Steel CaP1. It does well against Gliscor and Ferrothorn, though.

    Joint 5th: Dark

    Hit super-effectively by strong, common moves on Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Latios and Gyrados. Hit at least neutrally by all fifteen.

    4th place: Water

    Water has always been a decent defensive type - hence the success of bulky waters. Flying/Water is stubborn too (hello Gyrados!), and has limited, predictable counters.

    A Flying/Water CaP would be hit super-effectively by Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Latios and Gyrados. It would laugh casually at Blaziken, though.

    3rd place: Fighting

    Yes, Flying/Fighting is actually quite viable as a defensive type. That's great, because it's also more than handy as an attacker! And - for those who check these things - it's a new type.

    A Flying/Fighting CaP1 would be hit super-effectively by Gliscor, Chandelure, Gengar, Latios, Reuniclus and Gyrados. It would take neutral hits from everything else.

    2nd place: Electric

    Hit super-effectively by Tyranitar, Garchomp, Excadrill, Conkeldurr and Gyrados. That's just five out of fifteen of the strongest pokemon in the game. Defends well against Ferrothorn (though that does more than just attack, of course).

    Flying/Electric does well defensively, then, and it also makes its opponents predictable: those who can damage it tend to have either an Ice attack (special attackers) or a Rock one (physical attackers) - rarely both.

    Offensively, though, Electric doesn't mesh that well with Flying.

    1st place: Ground

    This was already one of my favourites: now I like it even more. Only Latios and Gyrados can hit a Flying/Ground pokemon super-effectively with a common, powerful attack (i.e. one that would make the 'Very Good Move' list). Of course, they can bring Hidden Power - but you can bring Hidden Power against anything.

    Just to re-iterate that: now that Water and Ice attacks are a little less common (though obviously Water is still around, and not just on rain teams), Flying/Ground pokemon are really hard to scare away. This typing would certainly step on a few toes (you may have one in your team already), but CaP1 would be very likely to stick around long enough to make a difference.

    And of course, Ground is a pretty handy attacking type too. It hits Electric, Rock and Steel - the holes in Flying's coverage - super-effectively.

    Disclaimer

    Pretty much this whole post was based on defenses. Hopefully someone else can talk about attacks. It also, of course, was limited to 15 pokemon. Still, I think it's relevant because they're pokemon which seem common to me.

    To those who say, "why these ones? Why not 15 more" - well, detailing pokemon specifically takes longer than talking about types generally. That's why a thread naturally begins talking about types, and only later deals with specific threats. If you really want to check who can defend against Thunderus as well, then my suggestion is you check yourself - I've just done a bunch.

    What I find interesting here is that the best defensive combinations with Flying - at least against these threats - are also some of the best attacking options. Ground in particular complements the holes in Flying's type coverage (Electric, Rock and Steel) quite well.

    Where next?

    What really concerns me is "what does this mean for the concept?"

    Clearly we don't want CaP1 to counter everything. On the other hand, we want it to have plenty of opportunities to switch in, and stay in, in order to change the match.

    This analysis has helped me understand the types defensively, but I'm still not sure which of them will be best for a momentum poke rather than a win-win-win poke. Except that, as I mentioned on page one, I feel Electric and Water would make our opponents' attacks more predictable than the other choices.
  17. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    In terms of attacks, Fighting/Flying gets neutral coverage almost as good as Boltbeam. I don't think there's more to say regarding offensive typing.

    That said, being good isn't what matters here. What matters is fulfilling the concept as well as possible, preferably without being so amazing in other ways that the Pokemon becomes overpowered or that the other ways overtake the concept. Being amazing in ways that contribute to the concept, however, is another story, and dual STABs that grant excellent neutral coverage indeed contributes to the concept.

    On another note, Chandelure is not common. Basing types primarily on just ten Pokemon is an inherently flawed method, anyway.
  18. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Chandelure is not a common OU pokemon. Shadow Tag doesn't exist yet.
    Heatran is not a common OU pokemon anymore, it's an uncommon OU [Like, 20th or so]

    That significantly bumps down Water.

    Where is Renkulus? Or Latios? Landos? Thunderous? No Water-types, despite all of the water moves thrown around? [You do realise that 3/5ths of your list is Water weak, right?]
  19. srk1214

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    I quite like Flying/Poison as well. For anyone who worries about Reuniclus, CAP 1 can u-turn (or switch) out into a Dark type, perhaps Spiritomb (which completely stops most Reuniclus).

    4x resistance to fighting and grass was incredibly useful to Crobat last generation, and I can't imagine how helpful it is now in Gen V. Still, for anyone who says it counters Conkeldurr... he frequently uses stone edge, or even facade.

    Regardless, Poison seems to me the best type by far, followed by Water and Fighting. Admittedly, Poison stab is awful, but perhaps this can be worked around with good movepool and perhaps even a create-a-move.
  20. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
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    Hooray Flying!

    Anyways, time to give my major support to yet another type. This time, I'll be backing Fighting in the polls. Reasons why Fighting type is the best choice are as followed:

    • Excellent defensive typing synergy with Flying for this concept. When you look at Flying / Fighting, you have a 4x resistance to Bug (huge), an immunity to Ground, and 2x resistances for Fighting, Dark, and Grass. All of these resistances / immunities are amazing in this metagame, covering a lot of coverage moves themselves as well as Pokemon such as Scizor, Virizion (bar HP Ice, but that holds true for any Flying weak typing), Excadrill, Conkeldurr, and a lot of other very important Pokemon.
    • Neutrality to Rock. I am 100% for the idea that a 2x SR weakness is not killer. In fact, I promoted that when I supported Flying in the previous thread. However, no one can deny that taking neutral damage to SR and being immune to Spikes/TSpikes is an excellent trait for a Momentum concept. It's taking minimal damage from hazards, which forces opponents to attack this directly with strategic switching and attacks instead of relying on switching CAP1 out and causing hazards damage.
    • Fighting STAB is good! We all know that Fighting STAB is good: it's a big part of the current metagame, with things like Breloom and Conkeldurr running around. However, Fighting STAB allows us to put pressure on multiple Pokemon (Tyranitar, Excadrill, Terrakion, Blissey, and even neutral hits like Skarmory) that are running rampant in this metagame too. That's part of what a momentum Pokemon should do: threaten the opposing Pokemon, causing your opponent to shift gears and react. Many argue that "Fighting = Sweeper", but actually, a good STAB like Fighting, which has access to powerful, medium, and weak moves alike, can allow us to have good offense without relying on huge stats and boosting moves.
    • Fighting weakness is good! Someone mentioned earlier about Poison attracting a certain kind of Psychic Pokemon as being a benefit. I agree 100% with this sentiment: luring something like Reuniclus out makes your opponent even more predictable. The Fighting / Flying combo shares this weakness, and will draw in certain Pokemon as well (as of right now, Thundurus, Zapdos, and Reuniclus seem to be the likely candidates if it is indeed Flying / Fighting). What's better for a Momentum Pokemon than drawing out predictable things? Not much, that's for sure.
    Poison typing is very, very similar to Fighting. However, in my opinion, Flying / Poison seems like an inferior Flying / Fighting type. It gives up a neutrality on Rock, a resistance for Dark, and good STAB for 4x resistances for Fighting and Grass (I won't be using those moves on a 2x resist either, and Flying STAB hits Super Effective on these types anyway) and neutrality on Flying (very rare as an attacking move, and the only Pokemon of note that use them are the overlooked Tornadus and the uncommon Togekiss). I guess there's a 100% Toxic immunity, but Flying's immunity to TSpikes was half of that battle, and there are many ways to prevent Toxic status (not to poll jump, but almost every Pokemon gets Substitute). In short, Poison just seems like a poor man's Fighting subtype. It's my second choice, but Fighting is definitely superior.

    Ghost, once again, is my "okay" typing. Immunity to Fighting is cool, but aside from that, Flying / Ghost will have little opportunities to switch in, since it only resists Bug (4x) and Grass, while being immune to Fighting and Ground (and Normal, but that's more of a perk than being important). Meanwhile, it's not going to draw in a lot of important Pokemon, except for perhaps Tyranitar (Flying / Ghost is weak to Dark and Ghost on top of Flying's weaknesses, which only Dark is substantially important). I don't think this typing matches the concept as much as the previous two does.

    I am against Steel, and have been since the primary typing. I see Steel as a possible pivot Pokemon, regardless of stats. Just my opinion on it.
  21. Mektar

    Mektar

    Joined:
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    I'm thinking Poison here. It provides nice resistances, and the bad STAB will discourage people from using it as yet another sweeper.
  22. taziathegreat

    taziathegreat

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    i totally agree however that wont be the case here.

    togekiss is normally a special sweeper why staraptor is a physical sweeper, this would be more like the case of blaziken emboar and infernape. Where they all provide slight niches to the same role and are all use able in top tier but one outshines the others for what ever reason.

    Unless we forgo speed, and go with a more bulky appoarch they'll play the same

    1. Come in on breloom or something totally non threating
    2. force the switch and either status/attacks whatever coming in boost up or uturn to a better counter
  23. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    We originally chose flying type so we could switch into ground and fighting moves. Most threats that carry those types of moves carry a rock move (excadril, landlos, conkledurr, machamp, infernape, blaziken, garchomp, lucario, terrakion to name a few)

    rock neutrality is pretty important for a flying type to be successful in the current metagame considering that all it's key switch-ins against fighting and ground pokemon are also commonly packing rock moves.
  24. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I'm seeing a lot of support in this thread for Flying/Poison, but I'm not at all clear on what the actual advantages are for Flying/Poison over Flying/Steel or Flying/Fighting. Which specific Pokemon would Flying/Poison allow CAP1 to switch in on and force out better than Steel, or Fighting, or even pure Flying? Flying/Poison has three 4x resistances, certainly. But which Pokemon are these significant against?
  25. Ignus

    Ignus

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
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    With Flying as the primary type for CAP1, I only see two options for a secondary type.

    Flying/Steel

    With Steel as CAP1's Secondary Type, It will only have two weaknesses: Fire and Electric. Both of these types are fairly easy to predict coming, and counter with CAPmon or a quick switch in. (You could even pair them with something like Electrivire, and switch out while the attack comes for Motor Drive!) Example: Capmon is sent out to counter an EQ from Excadrill. Opponent sends out Blaziken/ another Pokemon with Fire or Electric attack. You switch out to a Pokemon with flash fire, volt absorb, motor drive, etc. and use the boost to wipe the floor.
    Steel will also give it a plethora of resistances, including Dragon and Psychic, allowing it to need less of an investment in defense. Steel types are usually defined by their weakness to ground, but with flying as the primary type, there will be no reason to waste an item slot on something like ballon. Steel, to me, seems like the most viable option for this CAP.

    Flying/Fighting

    Other people (Paradox) explained this better than I can.

    Please Don't let this CAP go to waste over a typing that "WOULD BE AWESOME" and actually think competitively.
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