CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll

[MetaNite]

Fighting / Dark to beat Rotom-A? Isn't that what Colossoil was for??? Voted for Fighting / Rock to make for a very different Pokemon.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Ok then, no further comments. Good luck for the rest of the project.

 

[SkullCandy]

I am firmly against both of these secondary typings. As previously mentioned they offer almost no synergy with Togekiss apart frokm Rock, which is nice however. However Fighting/Dark seems to be a typing fitting to a pokemon rather than Togekiss. Gyarados can sweep a lot easier with rotom out the way. Rotom itself makes the perfect partner to CaP 11. Perfect synergy as well as the ability to hit every single pokemon in the game for neutral damage, as well as hitting loads for super effective damaged.

In Togekiss' analysis it states that two of her biggest fears are paralysis and toxic, neither of these are covered by CaP 11 as is the weakness to Zapdos/Rotom's Thunderbolts. It seems to me that many of Togekiss' weakness' are going to have to be covered by CaP's ability through Immnuity/Volt Absorb/Limber and that still doesn't cover the Ice weakness. I'm still hoping for a re-think of the secondary typing and make Electric an option.

Just my 2p (I'm english)

 

[Venator]

Icy Vegeta, it was decided that this Togekiss + CAP 11 core will be primarily offensive with key defensive/supportive synergies in the Concept Assessment 2 thread.

And I'm assuming not being able to resist very much equals a key defensive synergy? Yes, a SR/Rock resistance is important but what other hits can CAP 11 come in on for Togekiss? What kind of foes would be lured by CAP 11 that Togekiss can handle? Does either of these choices resist anything Togekiss would need to? The key to a Perfect Mate tag-team is that both switch out onto hits that the other can't take and then scare or defeat the partner's problem. Neither of these choices lure anything Togekiss wants as, even though Togekiss can kill Fighting-types with SE STAB, Togekiss is too slow and faints too easily to the physical onslaught from those very same Fighting-types. And you want the duo to have esentially three unresisted weaknesses? Ice, Electric and Fighting. Not like three of the most offensive attacks really matter. No, what really matters is making yet another Pokemon that will overshadow Togekiss and claiming it to be Togekiss' perfect mate when, in fact, it's better suited for some of Togekiss' counters.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Like I said earlier, I'm not questioning the TL's choices and wanted to wait until the end of this CAP, but since it's being discussed and Dark will obviously win anyway :

Icy Vegeta, it was decided that this Togekiss + CAP 11 core will be primarily offensive with key defensive/supportive synergies in the Concept Assessment 2 thread.

I think this is the core of the problem. There were actually two different solutions for making this CAP :
- what I will call the "support" route, where the core function as a powerful whole, each part benefiting from the other one's presence. Support, resistances and offensive coverage constitutes the essence of this core, CAP11 doesn't have to perfectly counter Togekiss' counters or vice-versa as long as the core can beat them. Example : a slow, bulky Fighting/Dragon that can support but not sweep by itself (I'm not saying this would have been the perfect solution, there were valid points against it).

- what I will call the "offensive" route. The core needs to maintain an offensive pressure on the opponent, until it has to sacrifice its Togekiss(or CAP) counter, letting it sweep. Resistances and support are appreciated, but not as important as disposing of Togekiss' counters.

I used "" because both are different interpretations of "primarily offensive with key defensive/supportive synergies", and both also received support in Concept Assessment, hence the confusion.

Like you said yourself :

Okay, I think we've hit the point where everybody is restating things people have already said, so I'm going to close this now.

In the end of Concept Assessment, it seemed like we all agreed, but our opinions were actually divided between two solutions.

If everyone understood that you wanted to take the offensive route, I think we could have made better and easier decisions. If I knew that, I probably wouldn't have voted Fighting, as I chose that typing for its adequation to the support route.

Fighting's victory only led the "support" advocates (including me) to think that we are indeed taking the support route, which is why each half of the community didn't understand the seemingly horrible choices of the other half.



Therefore, to make sure such a misunderstanding between participants doesn't occur anymore, i think every first posts should not only remind the original concept, but also exactly how we should accomplish it. This decision could either come directly from the TL or from a Concept Assessment Poll if necessary.

 

[SJCrew]

The key to a Perfect Mate tag-team is that both switch out onto hits that the other can't take and then scare or defeat the partner's problems.

I want to zero in on this point right here. Togekiss is not a standard OU sweeper along the likes of Lucario or Infernape, but rather a unique amalgamation of a bulky sweeper and tank. The reason Togekiss isn't seeing outstanding usage in the standard metagame is because its lack of speed and good resistances means it can do neither outstandingly well.

It's still going to have those problems unless we pick a Pokemon that can cover for it defensively as well as offensively because Togekiss does both, not one or the other. Right now, the typing makes it so that CAP10 can take out some of Togekiss's counters, but it's a one-sided deal; Togekiss really doesn't help CAP10 at all, neither offensively nor defensively. If a Fighting attack comes their way, the core is immediately dismantled.

On the other hand, there are other OUs that can vouch for those Fighting attacks and retaliate, such as Gyarados, Gengar, Rotom, Zapdos, Gliscor, etc. Dark/Fighting has incredible offensive merit and as long as this CAP has passable offensive stats, the Pokemon listed above will be paired with CAP11 more often than Togekiss.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I voted for /Dark because I want to see this CAP beat Rotom-A and the unique palette of weaknesses that this typing offers is a very interesting thing to work with. I also appreciate that it's only walled directly by Heracross and Toxicroak, which while Togekiss cannot switch into them reliably, she can still beat them with her STAB Flying-type attacks once in. That, to me, stands out as a great offensive synergy.

And I'm assuming not being able to resist very much equals a key defensive synergy? Yes, a SR/Rock resistance is important but what other hits can CAP 11 come in on for Togekiss? What kind of foes would be lured by CAP 11 that Togekiss can handle? Does either of these choices resist anything Togekiss would need to? The key to a Perfect Mate tag-team is that both switch out onto hits that the other can't take and then scare or defeat the partner's problems. Neither of these choices lure anything Togekiss wants as, even though Togekiss can kill Fighting-types with SE STAB, Togekiss faints too easily to the physical onslaught from those very same Fighting-types. And now you want the duo to have esentially three unresisted weaknesses? Ice, Electric and Fighting. Not like three of the most offensive attacks really matter. No, what really matters is making yet another Pokemon that will overshadow Togekiss.

I am going to address this in one big chunk, because I think this is the core of where everyone is flipping out and actually has zero idea what we are doing with this CAP.

We are creating an offensive core. Let's look at what that means.

• Not all weaknesses need to be directly covered by typing.

That states immediately that yeah, while having a few nice switch-ins between the two, you don't need to cover 2/3 or some arbitrary percentage of weaknesses. We don't need to cover those weaknesses, so we should not immediately drive the CAP's typing to do so.

• You don't even have to switch from one member of the core directly to another

Offensive cores can have intermediate pivots. Many cores are actually composed of more than 2 Pokemon for just this reason. For instance, you can pivot to Magnezone on an Rock-type attack aimed at Salamence, then immediately switch to Gengar on the next Ground-type attack. From here, your Gengar has gotten in for free and will threaten whatever is attacking. This is how lots of offensive cores work, and keeping that in mind is critical. This emphasizes that we do not need perfect type coverage between Togekiss and CAP11. (Nor could we get it outside of a Water/Ground CAP with only a Grass-type weakness, as Togekiss has crap for a defensive typing) This also directly relates to how fundamentally wrong you are in your post:

The key to a Perfect Mate tag-team is that both switch out onto hits that the other can't take and then scare or defeat the partner's problems.

No, that is not the key to a Perfect Mate. The sooner you rid yourself of that illusion, the sooner you might actually contribute to this CAP instead of whatever you might consider your whining and complaining to be.

• A Fighting/Dark or Fighting/Rock CAP11 can open up holes for a Togekiss sweep

This is often what offensive cores really focus on accomplishing at the end of the day. They force the opponent to make difficult decisions that result in holes popping up that the other Pokemon can abuse. Do you switch your Rotom-A out of a CAP11 that can OHKO it with a special attack? Do you switch to Blissey, who might take a Close Combat and be OHKOed? Do you go to Gyarados and hope you can avoid a 2HKO? These are the difficult situations an offensive Pokemon with Fighting/Dark (Or Fighting/Rock) might put the opponent in. Those are the exact situations that can result in holes that Togekiss can exploit. If they lose Blissey, damned, there goes a Togekiss check. If they sacrifice Rotom-A, damned, there goes another. If they go to Skarmory and hope to Brave Bird CAP11, they might instead eat a whatever that might mess it up, damned, there goes a Flying-type resist and phazer. These are all things that Togekiss can take advantage of in numerous ways and with many different sets. That's a mate in my book.

I could go on and on and on about why this can still work. I don't want to tl;dr this too much, though, so I will leave it at that. Suffice in your knowledge that:

• The CAP has not failed at only 10% completion
• The concept can succeed if we design the other parts of the CAP right to complement what we have

Let's make sure we do that. I'm confident that Fuzznip is not averse to such discussion in the direction of making this concept work, so there is no reason to get on his case about it. I am also sure that he'll try very hard not to end up making a CAP that "overshadows Togekiss" or is a "Colossoil clone" or whatever. That's good enough for me.

Now let's make a CAP and stop crying over spilled milk. Seriously.

 

[elementalheroshadow]

besides the fact that are fighting/dark would just be awesome, i really can't put it better than most of the people who've already posted. only 2 weaknesses, which can be covered by togekiss, and it could hit things like rotom and cresselia with STAB supereffective moves. i vote dark.

also, this is another combination that doesn't exist on an offcial pokemon yet, throwing that out there.

 

[Fuzznip]

Yoki, I'm not sure how "primarily offensive with key defensive/supportive synergies" is that difficult to understand. I clearly stated this several times in past threads, so it's not my fault that users overlooked that. I quote:

The direction we should be taking is offensive-minded, but with few key defensive and supportive synergies.

I said this at the end of the Concept Assessment 2, so if you somehow failed to see that, I really can't help you there. However, our CAP so far did not break that direction entirely. With our to-be Fighting/Dark CAP, we are actually filling that direction rather well. This is a primarily offensive type combo that helps with Togekiss's common checks/counters, such as Blissey, Rotom-A, and Tyranitar, and is a potent offensive type combination that is only resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak. In turn, Togekiss can obliterate Fighting-types that are tempted to switch into CAP 11. It may be difficult to switch in since Togekiss doesn't have the best Defense, but there are strategies that can be used to bring Togekiss in safely. For instance, double-switching, which is nothing new to a competitive player. There is your offense. As for the few key defensive/supportive synergies, CAP 11 has useful resistances to Rock and Dark (commonly used by Tyranitar), supports Togekiss's Flying STAB excellently with its Fighting STAB, and is not weak to Stealth Rock unlike Togekiss (basically means that the duo is not entirely entry hazard weak), among other traits. Again, all of this follows the primarily offensive idea.

All in all, the way we are approaching this concept has already been stated. The ship has already sailed, and I'm sorry if you missed it.

 

[Pimpstick]

I voted dark as a secondary type because it allows it to beat Pokemon such as Cresselia, Starmie and Rotom-A that may hamper Togekiss's sweeping ablities where as Tokekiss can beat Pokemon like Heracross, Hippowdon and other phyical walls that can stop it's mate sweep.

 

[Chameleon]

Yeah, until the TL cleared it up I was under the same impression as srk1214 and Yoki. Seeing Celetran and SkarmBliss as examples in the topic post led me to believe that searching for defensive synergy was very significant, but now I see how Fuzznip intended it to work. That's fine, and now I actually support the dark type given its role. I also didn't know we were appealing directly to the TL rather than the group as a whole until recently either, but everything's cleared up now.

 

[Bughouse]

I apologize for my previous post (in all honesty it was not because I was angry or a "stubborn 8 year old", I was just confused).

I do see how Fighting/Dark or Fighting/Rock has offensive synergy with Togekiss through typing. I also see how some defensive synergy can be accomplished through something as simple as an ability (Intimidate for example). I also understand that no pairing with Togekiss would function perfectly, and that the other 4 pokemon on the team can deal with the Fighting weakness.

Once you add the Dark typing to deal with ghosts (which seems likely now), CAP 11 threatens to be far too powerful with its incredible coverage. The only thing I can think of to keep it dependent on Togekiss for a sweep is giving it only moderate speed so T-Wave support is necessary (hypothetical, non-poll jumping is how I intend this). However, this would make me worry very much about ghosts that would outspeed a slower CAP 11. Sub-punch Gengar and Sub-CM/NP Mismagius would destroy this pairing, wouldn't they?

 

[DougJustDoug]

I realize some of you may not be a big fan of the direction Fuzznip is taking -- but it is a waste of time and effort for you to second-guess his decisions. Other than a small misstep by closing the secondary discussion thread too early (which he admitted was a bad call) -- Fuzznip is doing EXACTLY what we expect from a Topic Leader.

He has an idea of the direction he wants to go, and he is relying on the community to develop specific details. When forced to choose between his own judgement of what is right and good for the CAP, and the consensus of the community -- a good CAP Topic Leader is expected to follow his own judgement.

This is not an accident of the CAP process, it is not a reward, and it is not bad thing for the project. We give the Topic Leader very broad powers to lead a CAP project, and we expect them to use those powers. "This ain't our first rodeo", as they say. We've made a lot of CAP pokemon over the years -- and one thing we have learned is that a CAP project needs to be built by the community, but not led by the community.

We abide by the Topic Leader's judgement. Period. I even include it in the CAP Newcomers Guide, as one of the four primary things that new CAP members need to know before participating in CAP:

3. Respect the judgement of the Topic Leader. Each CAP project is assigned a single Topic Leader (aka. "the TL"), who is the boss of all threads that pertain to that Pokémon. There are forum moderators, server moderators, and admins as well, but the TL is the person heading up a given creation project, so you need to follow their lead. The CAP project has a democratic voting process for every step, but the TL is given wide powers to keep the project moving along in an organized way. You don't have to like the TL's opinions, but you need to respect their decisions.

So, for all the people that have been bitching about Fuzznip's decisions -- I suggest you cease it immediately. I am the head of the entire CAP project, forum, and server -- and even I must abide by the Topic Leader's judgement during an ongoing CAP, unless there is a gross violation of CAP policy -- which in this case, there is not. Not even close. I don't necessarily agree with all of Fuzznip's opinions, but that's the case on every CAP. I didn't like some of Plus' decisions on Colossoil, and I raised my eyebrows on some calls Beej made on Krilowatt. But, once the Topic Leader makes their decision, I line up behind them and move forward with it. I highly suggest you do the same.

If you want to know more about the Topic Leader's duties, and how they are expected to perform them -- I suggest you read this article: CAP Topic Leader Guide

Now, please let this be the last post regarding the Topic Leader, and their job. Let's focus on the pokemon we have to build, and make it the best it can be.

 

[familyguyman]

Yeah you can't get mad at Fuzznip. No one is to blame for it as we, as a community, had problems coming to any form of agreement. We now have a direction and it's up to us to make it work, it's far from impossible even if you don't like the typing results, it will be good enough in the end.


I happy Dark is winning this. We've been close to doing a Dark/Fighting with Colossoil. That was close until we chose not to so another Fighting type. Therefore, we are on the right track, redundancies aside.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Oh damn. I missed the discussion due to travelling, many apologies.

Now, on to CAP…

What, exactly, is the point behind Dark? As far as I can see the only reasonable benefits from a Dark-typing from an offensive standpoint are a) the ability to make Rotom-A a non-issue, b) artificially elevating Togekiss’s usage stats as one of the only Pokemon to use its Flying STAB as a counter to CAP11, helping us believe we have achieved our concept goal and c) creating the ultimate fanboy wet dream CAPmon. What exactly are people thinking when trying to describe this guy as having offensive synergy with Togekiss? Dark/Fighting takes care of nigh-on everything offensively; is there any need for Togekiss?

Dark/Fighting is one of those typings that doesn’t need a partner, just teammates to break down the opposing team sufficiently to clean up. Hence why Revenankh is the way it is. I’m not saying that Dark/Fighting is a bad typing for this CAP. It is just too good. For most other offensive combinations, such as Salamence and Magnezone, there are clearly definable weak points in the offensive ability of both that the other can handle – in essence, breaking the other’s counters. But this relationship does not really happen where Dark/Fighting is concerned – it takes care of almost everything with its STAB alone. And I’m not running Togekiss to deal with Toxicroak and Heracross. The relationship is not mutual, because it doesn’t have to be to succeed. You may say that we could give it mediocre offensive stats. But then, it is walled by pretty much everything bulky. And breaking bulky things isn’t really what Togekiss in particular is designed for – or at least, it is nothing that Togekiss does better than anything else. And that’s the critical point.

I’ll be extremely blunt here. CAP has an alarming tendency to give very good stats and a very good movepool to everything that comes their way, and now we have another Pokemon with an almost infallible typing, and I would question what the consequences would be should we fail to take the middle line. Too weak and it falls into disuse, too strong and it breaks the concept.

So, how is Rock/Fighting any better? Well, for a start, it means that Togekiss has some measure of control over the partnership. For one thing, with the right stat spread taken for granted, CAP11 should be walled by bulky Grounds, Waters, Grasses… which are exactly what Togekiss wants to be coming in on, and so an offensive partnership is born. This also means that neither Gyarados nor Zapdos are as viable partners as Togekiss as they and CAP11 are both stopped to a certain extent by a single class outlined above. Togekiss has no such problem.

Defensively you may say that Dark is the better choice. And it is. This is why I am saying that Dark/Fighting may be too strong a defensive typing, for all its incredible power as an offensive typing. Rock/Fighting cannot come even close to this, with weaknesses to Grass, Water, Ground, Fighting, and Steel. But then again, why not? Most of these types Togekiss will be happily obliged to come into, and Fighting is a problem for both Dark and Rock. As for Steel, if CAP11 is bulky enough it can act as a pretty good Scizor lure, since Scizor is pretty much mauled by either of CAP11’s STAB moves, so helping Togekiss regardless. It also has a number of niche benefits, such as the SDef boost in sandstorm.

All in all, I’m pretty much convinced that Rock is the best choice in this situation. It’s something new, it’s unpredictable and it’s a learning experience. Huzzah. But by the looks of things I can’t help thinking that Dark/Fighting is what we’re stuck with now. We’ll see how this turns out. If I can say one thing for this community, it never fails to pleasantly surprise me, and I have the utmost respect for Fuzznip as a leader, so I’m still confident that the remaining 90% of CAP11 will be a model of the project working at its best.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Now that we know what's Fuzznip is looking for within this project I can only assume that the vision Fuzznip has for this project is something that has the potent to "sweep" on it's own or at least be able to take down a Pokemon or two before dying. Something that doesn't 100% need Togekiss's present to be useful, but has a better chance of "sweeping" if Togekiss was around. Now the only thing not clear to me is does he want Togekiss to be the main "cleaner", CAP 11, or both if possible.

BTW I voted for rock on the principle that STAB rock moves would take down Zapdos easily and with a decent amount of [sp]attack could take down Rotom as well. Meaningless at this point but whatever.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I voted rock, because when I envision a partner for togekiss, i think less about "what beats Togekiss's counters" and more "How can togekiss set up?"

Rock type will provoke grass and ground attacks. rock types are also physically inclined, defensively... just what togekiss ordered. If we do decide to go with the baton pass circle, a slower rock type can pass rock polish to togekiss.

I kind of think that the dark option highlights a problem that was mentioned in the last smogcast. because the community is involved in the creation of caps, they pick what sounds strongest and not what fits the concept. Dark/ fighting is excellent offensive typing by it self, but how does it help this CAP11 be the pokemon of Togekiss's dreams?

 

[Fuzznip]

CAP 11's typing is Fighting/Dark. Expect a few threads to come right up.