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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, May 29, 2012.

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  1. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Korski said it well but I'll try to add my two cents just to have some impact:

    This CAP has been all about "overcoming an awful typing" and turning it into a benefit, but at every turn save the original decision to give it Dry Skin, we've been erring on the side of weakness on Mollux.

    After we decided it wasn't going to have ultra-competitive alternatives like Drought in its moveset, we actually decided that meant that it had NO alternatives at all and its only usable ability for any sun team is now Illuminate . . . . ILLUMINATE. The only extreme makover we've given this pokémon has been to shove it into the tiniest niche in existance. Its stats are really only decent and its typing is terrible and, really we have given it very little to compensate for that. Outside of the rain, this pokémon is going to be outclassed at virtually evrey turn, and without at least scald, for example, Mollux i going to even get outperformed IN rain.

    Fire is its only STAB with decent coverage, and it deals 50% damage in the rain, which outweighs the benefit of the attack being a STAB. Poison has laughable coverage, and without some sort of synergistic, custom, poison STAB, most movesets probably won't even USE the poison STAB. So what we are left with, in rain, where Mollux is supposed to excell, is a pokémon with its teeth kicked in: it has novel typing for a rain pokemon, but its got only moderately competitive stats and no real offensive threats in its movepool.

    I know we agreed on its abilities, its checks, counters, threats, stats, etc already, but have you really stopped to think about the whole idea of this CAP yet?

    So what did we do? We developed a pokemon who can't even USE the better half of his typing in his ideal environment . . . how have we exactly made Mollux's typing a strong selling point? we haven't done anything to accentuate his immunity to burns and poisoning via making him a wallbreaker, we haven't covered his most crippling weak-spot: being 4x vulnerable to the amazingly powerful, and nearly ubiquitous earthquake.

    It seems like we are rather heavy-handedly making sure we avoid ANY accidental boost in Mollux's power, but we have no qualms about neutering him.

    i.e. levitate as a secondary ability would have given mollux some diversity in his ability to negate one of his weaknesses. Arena trap would make him an utter wallbreaker and make his typing an amazing boon, and storm drain/water absorb would let Mollux function almost exactly the same, but be able to work outside of rain but, no, we got illuminate, not even mildly competitive abilities like poison point or flame body to solidify its role as a status inflictor, or limber or vital spirit/insomnia to solidify its role as being status immune, no, we got illuminate, and there was actually a movement that said that THAT was too powerful.
    Now we have a chance to at least salvage what's left of this CAP in the movepool discussion, but, regardless of how terrible Mollux's offensive ability is in the rain, we can't give him scald as an actually usable attack since it hits certain pokémon too hard?
    Well with everything that's happened so far in ability voting, Mollux is pretty much locked into a rain niche.... and in rain, his typing is STILL a handicap, but now it's an offensive handicap instead of a defensive one, but that is still something that NEEDS to be overcome by the definition of this CAP's Concept.

    Have we really gotten to the point where our only options are: Go against the very core concept of this CAP, go against the counters/checks list or create an underpowered and increadibly niche CAP?




    EDIT: as for the movement to create a custom fire STAB that ignores water's ability to weaken it by hitting waters neutrally and/or ignoring the 50% power decrease caused by rain. It has the potential to work around these problems, but it migh be clunky to balance. Flavor would be easy enough though, just name the attack "Grease Fire" since the LAST thing you want to do to a grease fire is throw water on it.
  2. fourkings8414

    fourkings8414

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    Just because of Dry Skin, people think that Mollux is oriented towards working only in rain. That is not the case. Sure, Mollux's most optimal position may be in rain to utilize the recovery every turn, but that does not mean that it is restricted to only being part of those teams. Essentially mimicking the utility of Water Absorb is enough to have it work for other teams. Thus, we are not scrapping the Fire coverage, nor are we relying on rain to have awesome, high BP moves in our sets. Not to mention how the extra power boost for Scald is not that scary at all. Comparing it to the attacks coming from Starmie and such, this is nothing. Think about it. Many of the pokemon that are supposed to threaten us are being hit by a boosted SE hit and are barely OHKOed. That's not overly powerful, in my opinion.

    What we should focus on is not just a single niche. Sure, it may be the fundamental niche for something with Dry Skin, but Mollux would work well in teams outside of rain. That's one reason why Eruption is being discussed seriously, is it not? Same thing would apply for Scald. Just because we give Mollux Scald does not mean it will get an instant 50% boost just because it seems to be a rain mon. That assumes that rain will always be up. And rain will not always be up. I would predict that more Sun or Sand teams would appear in order to take away that recovery, and guess what happens, the recovery is lost and Scald loses power.
  3. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
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    Very glad Scald is being rediscussed. A while back on IRC I commented to the effect of "I really hope CAP3 - prename - gets Scald. And I was shot down pretty quickly. I do believe looking back that Scald may in fact be an eensy bit too strong and I do understand the arguments against it. But if Scald is being rediscussed, can we move Octazooka definitely and Bubblebeam possibly to Allowed? Brine I'll leave untouched from where it stands since the doubling effect is scary.
  4. Hiphopanonymous

    Hiphopanonymous

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    The more I read, the more my opinion sways. My opinion has changed greatly on Scald, though. There's things much faster than Mollux that would probably, not to mention promptly, OHKO it with the proper move. Even Scald wouldn't be able to keep Mollux from being beat down by a unexpected counter switching in. My opinion (as of this moment, mind you), is that Scald being overpowered is merely hype, and if it does end up on Mollux, various Pokes will start popping up as surefire counters to it. I say allow Scald.
  5. Scoopapa

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    It's worth keeping in mind that most of our counters are Sand abusers, and the ones that aren't aren't really tied to a specific weather (aside from the redundant "other CAP3" on there). Tyranitar, Landorous, Terrakion, are definite sand mons; Heatran doesn't gain much from sand but is probably not going to be seen on a rain team due to its reliance on Fire STAB. Gliscor may have merits in both types of team but on its own prefers sand to rain. That leaves Dugtrio and Dragonite, who can be used in pretty much any weather, although they also haven't been a point of contention in this thread.

    The reason for bringing this up is that if we're doing calcs against pokemon who thrive in sand, it's only fair to assume a 50/50 chance of Rain or Sand being up. All other things being equal, there are just too many assumptions required to say which weather will be up in a battle between a rain staple and a sand staple. This has to be a consideration when talking about Water or Fire moves as well as Hurricane and Thunder. Unless every player using a Mollux in rain always outplays every sand-wielding opponent, then running Fire Blast, Thunder, and Hurricane will be a double-edged sword.

    I'm sure at some point we've all assumed weather control when building a team and suffered the consequences on the ladder. Let's not make the same mistake with this CAP's movepool. There are probably plenty of hypothetical teams that would be nigh unbeatable if we could safely assume weather control. Obviously, these teams are beatable, and practical teams have to be willing and ready to fight the weather war.
  6. jas61292

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    Whether or not it is raining is not really important when it comes to the power of scald. What is important is that it breaks right through many of its counters with it. Sure, if it is not raining, then it is not a OHKO on some. Big deal. You still severely cripple them AND have a 30% chance of burning, potentially crippling even more. What good is that doing for this CAP? I mean, maybe it is not as powerful as Dusk's original calcs made it out to be, but then, what is the purpose of it having Scald at all?

    It helps demolish our chosen counters and doesn't really help with anyone we want it to beat. Even if it is less powerful than originally thought, there is absolutely no reason why having Scald is a good thing, and with the potential to break its counters, there is a very good reason to consider it a bad thing. Scald serves no purpose in the movepool other than breaking things we don't want to break, and should thus be disallowed. As I stated in my last post, this is true of pretty much all damaging water moves. There is no Pokemon that we really want to beat that it helps with, and many who we don't want to beat that they do. As such, I also think Octozooka and Brine should be disallowed.

    I am not as sure about Hurricane. Honestly, I see no reason to give it, but I don't see any reason why not either. Allowing it is fine by me. It is unimportant enough to me that I wouldn't be surprised if it failed to make a movepool for flavor reasons if it is anything but required.
  7. Choice Socks

    Choice Socks

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    I would like to see octazooka allowed. It is a move that is reliant on weather for a start, or its low BP does not warrent it being chosen in the first place. It also has imperfect accuracy so will miss when ever you need it to hit.
    The fact it's weather dependent on getting a moveslot is good enough for me to want it allowed. There is a lot of sandstorm and sunny day teams running around meaning octazooka is not going to be chosen unless it is on a dedicated rain team.

    I also noticed there was no flame charge on the list. This should be allowed. It gives Mollux a chance to raise his speed and sweep, much like heatran can.
  8. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    so it has something reliable to hit with in rain
  9. jas61292

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    That's called poison STAB. Sludge Wave/Bomb hits stronger in rain than Scald on most things outside of the ones who we want to lose to. The only real exceptions are guys like Gengar, who is so frail that no one cares, and Steel types who die miserably to a 131 base SpA STAB Fire Blast, even in rain.
  10. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
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    To the pro-Scald poeple, please tell me one thing Scald does for Mollux other than fuck up our check/counter list that isn't simply "rain abuse".

    Poison-STAB isn't THAT bad.
  11. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    My own opinion:

    Basically we have to look at these attacks in how they work in different weathers:

    Scald vs Fire Blast:

    Scald is better in Rain and inferior in all other weathers, except against Terrakion and Tyranitar, which get a compensating SpD boost in Sand.

    Truthfully, thee of the counters on our list aren't designed to take high-powered special attacks they don't resist on any kind. Burn is just as crippling to Terrakion and Tyranitar whether they are seriously threatened by it or take a pittance.

    Given my honest assessment I'd prefer either / or of Scald and Hurricane as the "Rain Move" of choice. Electric attacks are a given and almost entirely irrelevant to our counters. Thunder does the same damage to Terrakion as Hurricane, and both their 30% effects are pretty nasty, with Thunder's paralysis edging out Hurricane's confusion.

    Gliscor, Landorus, and Duggy aren't even proper counters anyway, they are offensive checks and revenge killers. Specs Mollux slaughters them with nary a thought if they try to switch in, Scald or no. These 3 pokemon are already broken by the fact they can't deal competently with 131 SpA Fire Blast.

    In a sense out counters list is pretty myopic because we focused it around sand offense and left everything else as a sort of coin toss. This is my fault as I should have been more comprehensive. Gastrodon, Dragonite, Hydreigon, and the Latis give Mollux plenty of trouble, and trying to pidgeonhole Scald Mollux as if it's some unstoppable force is ludicrous. Heck, without a Fire move Ferrothorn can set up on Mollux as its movepool exists now, and Fire/Water coverage isn't that stellar, being resisted by Dragon and Water, even if those Waters can't hit you with STAB either.

    I'm moving Scald to allowed. It still gets checked or revenge killed by everything faster, and it still has plenty of counters, whether we ordained them specifically in the Threats Discussion or not. Brine will move to disallowed since it crushes anything below 50%, and with Scald allowed Octazooka isn't comparably competitive.

    Giving this a 24 hr warning.
  12. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
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    I have a proposition myself for a signature move. Hear me out, because I've thought this through quite thoroughly and have opposed every other call for a signature move since joining the CAP community. I don't take this lightly. I truly think this may be the optimal solution.

    Warning, long post ahead, because I want to dodge questions ahead of time.

    20 BP Water Special move with +1 priority. A Water type weaker Vacuum Wave. (The flavorful 40 BP proves much too strong in calcs under Rain with such a high Sp Attack.)

    Here are the calcs, assuming the worst case scenario: Rain is up, 252 Special Attack, Modest, LO:

    Show Hide

    Heatran (OU Specially Defensive) 19.74 - 23.37%
    Heatran (OU Offensive) (Move 1): 27.86 - 32.81%
    Tyranitar (OU Specially Defensive) (Move 1): 16.83 - 20.29% (these are not when TTar switches in and starts sand)
    Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) (Move 1): 25.26 - 30%
    Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) (Move 1) (Move 1): 28.07 - 33.33%
    Volcarona (OU Bulky Quiver Dance) Sludge Wave: 57.68 - 68.19% Fire Blast: 36.38 - 43.12% (Move 1): 24.25 - 29.11%
    Gliscor (OU Defensive) (Move 1): 33.33 - 39.54%
    Gliscor (OU Acrobat) (Move 1): 40.54 - 48.1%
    Jirachi (OU Specially Defensive) Fire Blast 51.98 - 61.38% (Move 1): 8.41 - 10.14%
    Landorus (OU Choice Scarf) (Move 1): 38.87 - 46.39%
    Donphan (OU Defensive Rapid Spin) (Move 1): 36.97 - 43.75%
    Ninetales (OU Specially Defensive) Sludge Wave 51.71 - 61.14% (Move 1): 21.71 - 25.71% (Like TTar, not on switch-in)
    Dugtrio (OU Reversal) (Move 1): 58.76 - 70.14%
    Mamoswine (OU Physical Attacker) Fire Blast 118.23 - 139.77% (Move 1): 39.22 - 46.4%


    Comments: 20 Power boosted by Rain goes to 30. Fire Blast on the other hand, despite being nerfed by Rain, is still boosted by STAB and sits at 90 Power, three times as strong than the effective 30 from the Rain. This means that if Water is super effective, but Fire is not, this new move is still weaker (though more accurate) than Fire Blast. Even when water is super effective, as it is on everything on this list (bar Jirachi), these results are hardly overpowering, since Fire Blast wasn't when under rain in the first place. Still this move would help in a few significant ways. Without this move, Dugtrio is guaranteed to live a Sludge Wave on the switch in and has a good chance to live a Fire Blast (worse odds if Rocks are up). This means that without this move, Dugtrio is a surefire trapper of Mollux with zero prediction needed if Dugtrio gets a little lucky on the Fire Blast damage roll. With priority, Dugtrio is no longer safe to switch in willy nilly. Landorus can be KOed by the priority after switching in on a hit, virtually guaranteed if Rocks. AcroBat Gliscor fears this too. However Defensive Gliscor may fear switching in on Fire Blast, while Sludge Wave is safe, even with Stealth Rock up. Notably, Defensive Gliscor are usually slower than 252 speed (modest, not even timid) Mollux and are 2HKOed by Fire Blast alone anyway. Though I suppose a speed creep may occur here. However, regardless of all this, Heatran, Ninetales, and Tyranitar all remain safe switchins to Mollux running Fire Blast, Sludge Wave, and this priority move. Similarly Chansey/Blissey, Jellicent, and to a lesser extent Dragonite remain solid options against CAP3. Jellicent can be eliminated with Thunderbolt, Dragonite possibly by HP Ice. Gastrodon remains safe barring HP Grass. If Sludge Wave is removed, Volcarona becomes a viable counter under Rain as long as Stealth Rocks are not up. Without Fire Blast, Steels check Mollux well.

    Basically, this move helps with some of the issues that have been making me, quite frankly, hate where we've gone so far with Mollux competitively. Not being complete Dugtrio bait is essential in my opinion for everyone's sanity. Keep in mind that this is competing for a move slot with Hidden Power Ice/Fighting/Grass/Ground as well as possibly Thunder(bolt), Signal Beam, etc etc etc. Offensive Mollux is just NOT going to be able to single handedly demolish everything, and a 20 BP Priority move isn't going to change that. What it does change though is provide a little relief against a few of it's counters without breaking them. If the weather war is won, it breaks through many counters, but as long as Sand (or Sun) are up, the move is next to useless.



    Long post was long. I hope it all makes sense. Also, if 20 feels to weak, and you can convince me/others of 30 or even 40 being reasonable (I don't think it is right now), do it.
  13. SunnyE

    SunnyE

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    I'd still like to see the custom rain-fire move I mentioned (love the "Grease Fire" name, Sonic), and would have one more argument: CAP 3's main objective is to make Mollux's typing it's selling point, yet we made his ideal situation one where is main STAB is really hindered. Mollux's poison STAB it his strongest option in rain, but that means Steel types wall us. With the custom move, however, Mollux has a strong, super-effective, answer to this problem. Even with the low 60 base power I originally suggested, the effectitve power against a steel type not named Heatran (or Empoleon, but who uses that in OU?) is 180, making it the strongest option. Our Fire STAB also hits ground types, like Donphan, who can potentially OHKO us with earthquake if we don't KO him first, for normal effective damage, being -unless we give Mollux Scald or Hurricane- also our stongest option (90 effective BAP aginst Sludge Wave's 47 and Thunder/bolt's 0). Against ghost types, Thunder/bolt is still a stronger option, but against poison types, of which there are only 4 in OU, 2 have a weakness to fire (Venusaur for being part grass and Toxikroak for having Dry Skin) and 1 is dying to anything anyway (Gengar), the last one, Tentacruel, would be the only exception. And all that is just if we give this base 60 power (a perfect acc Fire Blast in rain), if we give him base 70, Grease Fire is already a better option than tbolt against mons that take normal damage from both. And it is reasonable to consider Thunderbolt users even in Rain, for in the event of loosing the weather war, Mollux still has a reliable electric move.

    so I'd like to get some feedback, what do people think of Grease Fire: base 70 power, fire-type, doubles power under rain (so it gets doubled and then halved, staying with the same power under all weather conditions.)
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    Alright, enough with the custom moves.

    Here's the thing: Why are we using CAP3 in Rain? Because with STAB its Fire attacks can still crush Scizor and Ferrothorn, and also because of the resistances Fire offers. I really don't think a custom move is warranted, because then the custom move becomes the focus of the CAP, not the typing. Having a strong Grass resistance is something most Rain teams can't afford, save something like their own Ferrothorn or Scizor, which just leads to setup or switching wars via U-turn.

    It's usefulness on a Sun team is actually understated, as it can be a trump in the weather war to keep your weather up. In general I think it will be able to find its place with the coverage it has now.

    The last move up for discussion is Discharge, unless someone would like to bring up any others.
  15. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    If we're going to do a signature move, especially one with the intention of giving Mollux some power WITHOUT threatening our counters, it should really be a poison or fire attack, not a water one.

    on battle flavour alone this attack makes sense since our CAP seems to be attracted to special attacks with a high chance of infliting status effects (which would make hex an awesome addition to its moveset, and which makes me somewhat sad that we didn't give it a "Serene Grace" ability, but I digress.)

    If we are going to say that thunder and thunderbolt are allowed, then I don't see a problem with discharge, but I don't see a necessity either. I suppose if you want to move thunderbolt to disallowed and replace it with discharge, that's one question, but just asking whether it's okay or not when our cap already has thunderbolt just seems like it doesn't actually even matter.

    my bigger question stems from this comment:
    doesn't that suggest that at least one (if not both) of these attcks should be required rather than allowed?
  16. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
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    SunnyE, this is just a flat out terrible idea. Your proposed move reaches an effective base power under Rain of 105 (70 x (2 x .5) x 1.5). Fire Blast sits at 90 (120 x .5 x 1.5). Under rain, that change is pretty inconsequential. 252 Modest LO Fire Blast is already 2HKOing Specially Defensive Jirachi under Rain. 131 Special Attack is huge. Meanwhile, outside of rain, your proposed move sits at 105 effective base power (70 x 1.5), while Fire Blast sits at 180 (120 x 1.5).

    Inconsequential difference in one weather but a huge issue in the other. Not an improvement.



    EDIT: Also, Deck, I'd appreciate if you don't just discount my proposed move offhand just because it comes after a string of bad proposed signature moves. Please give it a look-over. The simple fact is I fear Mollux may lose TOO hard to its intended counters to work in a playtest that is going to be designed around countering Mollux... if we're worried that a 20 BP move is too strong, then that is a referendum on the 131 Special Attack, not the move. I outlined my arguments for the move above. This is the first and most likely only time I will ever advocate for a signature move on a CAP. I really do believe in this option.
  17. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Seeing as Deck decided to allow Scald, the moves left are Discharge (pending) and Hurricane (controversial). Still, I'd like to say - nay, repeat - my stand on Scald - so you could skip the hidebox if you're already getting bored of me :/

    Show Hide
    Mud Shot would be more preferable as it doesn't get a weather boost and would not be able to touch our revenge killers. Scarf Terrakion can still destroy Mud Shot Mollux, Tyranitar can survive 2 hits to retaliate with EdgeQuake. But with Scald, 30% burn will make them think twice about switching in, even with Tyranitar's Sand Stream. Cape, I know the Flying/Ground types are more oriented towards revenge-killing Mollux, but Mud Shot at least allows them to switch in untouched should Mollux opted for it instead of Fire Blast.


    I propose to allow Discharge, as the 30% Paralysis offers the chance for Mollux to be a better status platform outside of rain (which will allow us to see more usage of non-rain oriented Mollux, perhaps). Damage-wise, it is outclassed by the other Electric-type attacks, so running Discharge doesn't really affect Mollux that much.

    Hurricane hits less than Scald in the rain, while Mollux's dual STABs can take care of Fighting-types well enough, rain or no (I did some calcs at Page 3 of this thread). So I propose to disallow Hurricane, again.

    On a slightly relevant topic, would disallowing Thunder help with the problems here? My arguments:-

    a) Thunderbolt hits hard enough against Water-types while they can do nothing much except stalling Mollux out.
    b) Hurricane does about the same to Terrakion as Thunder, and both are heavily reliant on weather.

    So disallowing Thunder might help alleviate the controversy surrounding Hurricane. At the same time, it doesn't hinder the Mollux's intentions to slaughter Water-types too much.

    Relevant calcs about disallowing Thunder:
    Leftovers Timid 252 SpA Mollux Thunderbolt against OU Hydration Wall Vaporeon in rain: 46.65 - 55.29% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)

    @srk1214 - You have my tentative support. But not Deck's, obviously.
  18. Krabmeat

    Krabmeat

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    What about giving Mollux a silent mechanic, preventing Water type moves from receiving the boost in rain? Non-water typed moves dealing water type damage would still receive the boost, such as hidden power or weather ball. This allows for coverage, but reduces the super effective power from 3x to 2x.

    A silent mechanic isn't exactly unprecedented, either. Just look at Shedinja. Base 1 hp on anything else would mean a stat between 111 and 205, and enough people have hacked wonder guard onto other mons to know that it isn't responsible.

    Just putting that out there.
  19. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    Honestly my problem with it skr is that it's hopelessly rigged against itself, it's Bubble that trades priority for the low Spe lower chance, and the fact it only hits 60 BAP when STAB and SE in the Rain inclines me to dislike it on principle. Moreover its targets are Pokemon that can't switch in properly unless they're playing in disadvantageous weather to begin with. It's already quite strong against those Pokemon, and a Sub + 3 Attacks set will be more than sufficient at putting many of them away. Truthfully, none of them like Will-O-Wisp at all anyway, and special attacking Dragons seem to be giving Mollux more trouble than physical attackers are in the final analysis.

    I understand it was well considered, but it's just too much of an oddity. Special Aqua Jet, weaker or no, is not really what we need.
  20. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Make the attack's description read "a fire attack which is not weakened by water"

    simple implication there is that rain doesn't weaken it, and it hits water types neutrally (we are supposed to "beat them" anyway according to our checks/counters list), though 70 Base Power is probably too high for something like that O_O . . . and, as deck Knight says, even if we balance that, then this CAP becomes almost entirely about the signiture attack
  21. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
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    I guess my next question then, is WHY? Why are we deciding Mollux should be relying on Sub or Will-o-Wisp to help deal with its Ground Type counters/revenge killing checks? We generally try to make CAPs versatile and pigeon holing CAP3 into a Bulky attacker role seems silly when we have given it 131 Special Attack and serviceable Speed for what it needs to do (potentially with Flame Charge...) If that's what we were really going for when we voted for R_D's spread, then I'm confused.

    Meanwhile, a good point to stress is that this is a CAP that can be switched into freely at the moment by Dugtrio if under Rain. Neither Fire Blast nor Sludge Wave KO. The benefit that provides to a Sun + Dugtrio team is ridiculous, as sun will struggle to get past some Mollux sets. This is why the BP for my proposed move sits at 20. At 40, this move has a guaranteed OHKO with Rocks, and KOs without barring min damage. Too high, since it starts removing things from the threatlist. The Power could potentially be bumped up to 30, if you're concerned the power is too low but I really did pick 20 for a strategic reason. 30 BP SE Rain Boosted Water move is effective 90 Base. The same as Fire Blast under Rain. That's high enough to threaten 2HKOs on the less frail checks Gliscor, Landorus, etc when Rocks are up. I hardly think this move would be game breaking, as again, it is competing with MANY other options. Offensive Mollux suffers from SERIOUS 4MSS.
  22. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    If I didn't make it clear in my post, the reasons to have Scald in the movepool are thus:

    1) It gives Mollux a useful attack in Rain. OHKOing Ferrothorn or Scizor in Rain is not a defining feature for a Fire-type, so the only other options are unSTABbed Electric attacks or terrible Poison attacks, offering gloomy coverage that OU can dance around whimsically with its numerous immunities. Unless the plan is to just keep launching Fire attacks no matter what, then we need Scald to make some use of Rain. There's a reason we picked Dry Skin over Water Absorb, and it's not because we as a community decided to hate this CAP. We've wanted CAP to be useful in Rain this whole time; reversing course now will only limit Mollux and confuse its general competency.

    2) It's not overpowered. Scald gives some of our named threats trouble, yes, but its crucial to remember that those particular Pokemon are already at a disadvantage in Rain, so their problems will naturally extend beyond Mollux and into general strategy. Even so, having access to Scald does not change the outcome of Landorus vs. Mollux or Heatran vs. Mollux or whatever (Mollux still loses), so the threat list is actually unaffected and all those Pokes remain threats. In the absence of outrageous boosting moves, the coverage offered by Scald is mild and does little to address Dragons, Blissey/Chansey (Wish away!), Gastrodon, and pretty much anything faster that switches in without being KO'd. There are still threats, there are still counters, there are still checks. The way weather works in OU won't change due to Scald here; it will only allow Mollux to potentially fit on a Rain team and do things that Rainmons can already do. This is a good thing.

    3) It supports Poison as an attacking type. Poison hits everything that resists Electric/Water (except Gastrodon) for neutral damage, which gives it 3-move coverage and STAB without having to resort to halved Fire attacks in the Rain. Outside of Rain, Fire STAB completely eclipses Poison STAB in OU, so it's a non-issue there.

    4) It extends status anxiety to physical attackers in general with that 30% Burn rate. We all know how annoying Scald can be, so playing off a duality with Lava Plume or Will-o-Wisp should stress out enough offensive Pokemon to give Mollux a strong enough foothold in OU. It's still an unreliable Burn, so its bark is worse than its bite. What it does do is maintain focus on a particular status that is strategically in line with this Pokemon and this concept. We can't coddle Terrakion and Tyranitar to the point of losing the viability of this CAP. Deck already explained well that OU's special attackers will be giving Mollux more general trouble in the long run, so an added Burn here or there won't change our CAP's effect on the metagame enough to deny it outright.

    -------------------

    That said, I'm against Discharge. Paralysis has nothing to do with this typing, flavor or otherwise, and in every other regard it's worse than Thunder/Bolt. Let's just have fun Burning and nuking stuff and let that 76 Spe balance CAP out.
  23. Banryu

    Banryu

    Joined:
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    I feel like allowing Thunder and disallowing Discharge (and probably Hurricane) is the way to go. Thunder gives the same paralyze chance as Discharge but is largely dependent on rain for accuracy, making paralysis relatively non-viable outside of rain. Disallowing Hurricane as well limits Mollux's options for rain-specific attacks to just Scald and Thunder, which are fairly redundant with Hurricane anyway, right?
  24. Scoopapa

    Scoopapa
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Your calcs didn't really prove anything about how we deal against Fighting-types. They range from OHKOes to 4HKOes and fail to take into account crucial factors such as who wins when trading blows or switching in (we lose with many of your calcs) and comparisons to the move you were trying to prove was unnecessary.

    For instance, Hurricane gives the chance to OHKO Conkeldurr (strong likelihood with modest), which is nice because if we switch in on Bulk Up rather than a Fighting move we can kill it before dying to a +1 Stone Edge (which we do). This is the most common of the fighting-types so this is the most important advantage that Hurricane offers.

    Against Virizion it turns a 2HKO into a OHKO. Virizion is really one of the lesser cases of need for Hurricane but it's worth noting a couple things Hurricane can do that Sludge Wave can't. First, it will 2HKO your dual screen Virizion through Light Screen, preventing it from living to drop a potentially game changing screen later in the match. Second, CM Virizion with HP Rock can actually beat 252 HP Mollux if it switches in on Calm Mind, unless it carries Hurricane. HP Rock isn't exactly common, but Mollux sure will be, and its not like Grass/Fighting/Rock is cripplingly bad coverage.

    Against Infernape it turns a 2HKO into a OHKO. Of course so does Scald, so I guess it's moot, but OHKOing is necessary since it 2HKOes back with Stone Edge.

    Against DD Scrafty it allows for a OHKO, again necessary because if we switch in on Dragon Dance we will die to two +1 Crunches before KOing it back. With Hurricane it will always at least die to SR + LO + Hurricane.

    Against Bulk Up Scrafty it is completely necessary because a 4HKO isn't doing jack to something with Shed Skin and Rest.

    Against Toxicroak it turns a 2-3HKO with Fire Blast into a OHKO. If you're running Flamethrower and going for the 4HKO then by switching in you run the serious risk of letting it set up to +3/+3 and kill you with a combination of Drain Punch (taking away the 4HKO) and Sucker Punch. Also, if Toxicroak runs Stone Edge to say, protect its rain team against Mollux, then you can't counter it without Hurricane.

    That's a pretty significant list of improvements vs. the Fighting-types. Note also that between Guts, Substitute, Shed Skin, Taunt, potential special sets, and secondary Fire typing, most of these mons can deal with Will-o-Wisp. I understand that they aren't on our threatens list, but much like Deck Knight pointed out that the "threatened by" list is pretty minimalist and focused on Rock- and Ground-types, our "threatens" list is pretty minimal and focused on Water-types. It is fitting to the concept that we make full use of our Fighting resist, and there is really no reason we shouldn't be able to deal with these Fighting-types. This is why I support Hurricane: because it lets us take advantage of our Fighting resist by allowing us to actually counter some of them without taking a massive risk of them just setting up and destroying us. It isn't just some random Rain coverage move just for the lols, it's meant for a specific purpose. It doesn't mess up our counters any worse than our other moves, and as I've pointed out it isn't superfluous, either.

    Lets also not forget that Mollux isn't getting all of the moves we "allow" or vote for in this thread - the only moves he is guaranteed to get are the "required" moves. "Allowed" simply represents the pool of moves that movepool submitters have to choose from. Hurricane could prove to a great balancing factor to those who don't want to include Thunder in their movepool, for instance.
  25. Darklatias92

    Darklatias92

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    I was thinking… what if we give to Mollux a Poison variant of Psyshock? In that way we can hit hard special walls and have a reason to use our Poison STAB. I'm not pretending to give 80 BP like Psyshock, but at least a decent power to deal with special walls that otherwise shut CAP down.
    Most of our checks have already high Def stat and are mainly scared by our special moves, and Poison has a rather terrible coverage (only supereffective against Grass and neutered by Steel, who are already demolished by Fire, excluding Heatran).
    I don't see the problem in giving it a similar attack, unless you point me out the contrary.
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