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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 13 - Movepool Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, Jun 4, 2012.

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  1. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
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    I'll do some aesthetic critiques as well.

    Should Poison Jab be included in movesets? I don't feel like it's all that flavorful (most Pokemon that learn it have appendages to use it with; the Tentacool family is the sole one to learn it and have tentacles (which are far longer than Mollux's to begin with)... The only thing I can imagine is an attack like the Spiked Goombas in Paper Mario, lol).

    nyttyn: I agree with bmb to an extent, but I'd suggest switching Heat Wave with Eruption instead. Move Stealth Rock to egg moves; since it's in field, there are no incompatibilities (breed with Smeargle). Every Pokemon that learns the move by levelup is related in some way to Rock-types; Mollux is not.
    Malkyrian: I really like the color of your movepool, but I can't say much else.
    AOPSUser: Get rid of Will-o-wisp (it is learned through levelup by Ghost-types and Vulpix (which has a strong tie to the paranormal through flavor)), move Fire Blast up quite a few levels (imagine Fire Blast at level 15!), Calm Mind really should just be a TM (but this is a lesser qualm), move either Gunk Shot or Octazooka up a few levels (when moves are learned at the same level, they tend to be something along the lines of Stockpile/Spit Up /Swallow or the powders all at the same time; those two moves are unrelated), and move Overheat far down - nothing learns a move at level 100 (bar various legendary Pokemon) and there's a huge gap in levelup moves between it and Sludge Wave.
    LouisCyphre: I have nothing to say; this looks fine.
    capefeather: God, you must really hate Mollux; nothing but Bide until level 20? Spare its poor little ingame life and give it something special (Ember, Incinerate, Fire Spin, Smog... anything!). Brick Break seems off flavor-wise (all of its learners have arms or have pre-evolutions / evolutions with arms). You may want to stick a few flavor moves in egg moves; it's a bit quiet there with only 4 moves.
    ZhengTann: Leech Life doesn't fit here (it's a blood draining attack.. and Mollux has no fangs), level 50 should be "Wring Out".
    The Reptile: Heart Scale moves don't work that way; afaik, when you encounter a Pokemon, its moves are the last four level-up moves it could have learned. In other words, level one Mollux will have Stockpile, Soak, Ember, and Wrap. I'm not sure if this is what you want. Learning Constrict at level 20 (a move that is generally both a base move and learned before wrap) is cruel.
    Korski: Dragon Tail doesn't seem to flavorful, considering Mollux does not have a tail or an evolution / pre-evolution with one. Otherwise, the rest is good.
    Banryu: I'm ok with everything you've got.
    Nyktos: Leech Life is, again, a move that requires fangs; it doesn't fit Mollux too well. Synthesis, as you noted, seems odd; it really doesn't fit too well flavor-wise either. I'd suggest just tossing it and sticking either of its clones in level-up instead.
    MCBarrett: I have no qualms here.
    Forestflamerunner: Nothing learns explosion at that low of a level bar the regi trio; move it up.
    Mari: No problems here.
  2. SubwayJ

    SubwayJ

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    Umm how about Volcarona??

    I actually really like the flavour of learning a (usually good) move at LV 100 and would most likely support movepools with that if only for that reason!!
    Just something for you to consider.

    I'd keep it at LV 100 if you have it and possibly consider giving it a LV 100 if you don't.

    Just a thought

    SubwayJ,
  3. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

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    Real life cone snails attack by shooting a venomous harpoon at their target and then swallowing it whole. There aren't really any existing moves that quite get that flavour, but I feel like Leech Life gives the right general feel. Perhaps you're right, though; I'll consider changing it.

    I don't like having both Recover and Morning Sun / Moonlight as level-up moves, and I still feel strongly about my reasoning for including Recover as one. I don't like Synthesis any more than you do from a flavour perspective, but currently I feel like it's the lesser of several evils: the options are putting Mollux in a less flavourful egg group, giving it Moonlight as an event move, or not including a move I feel should be included.

    Edit: Looking over some move lists again, I think I'm going to replace Leech Life with Pin Missile.
  4. Banryu

    Banryu

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    I will defend the flavor basis for Poison Jab. To me it was fitting to have an attack alluding to Mollux's real-life basis, the cone snail, which essentially uses a spring-loaded harpoon in its shell to stab and incapacitate prey with its deadly venom. There's not much of a Pokemon attack equivalent of this; Poison Jab seems to be the best analogue, as well as perhaps Venoshock, to a lesser extent. Nyktos said it.

    So yeah, I think it's flavorful enough. My main concern with it on my own moveset is simply, do I want it occupying one of my VGMs that could otherwise be replaced with a better flavor or support option? But yeah, speaking for myself, I included it on a flavor basis, since I left Gunk Shot out.

    Speaking of Nyktos' movepool, perhaps what you could do is have Morning Sun as a level-up, and have Recover as a breedable move from Gastrodon or something, that seems to work out all right. That also restricts what moves are usable alongside Recover, which is probably good, right?
    EDIT: v v v v v If you feel that way; I see your point.

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
  5. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

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    I feel like making Recover unusable alongside things life Fire Spin and Stockpile just makes it less likely that anyone will use those moves at all, and from a flavour POV Recover is a better fit as a level-up move anyway.
  6. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    Kricketune, Accelgor and Volcarona don't feature fangs in their design.
    Shelmet, who even has the exact same mouthparts as Mollux, and is also snail based, gets it as a Start move. So I don't think leech life would be unreasonable.
  7. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    nobody will be using fire spin or stockpile anyways so thats not a problem and i think you can make an argument for morning sun being a better level-up move too in terms of flavor. it definitely says "fire type" more than recover does. it also goes with mollux having illuminate as an ability with the morning sun being a source of illumination.
  8. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Final Submission

    58 moves; 33 VGM's

    Moves with ! to the right of them are repeats.

    Egg Group: Field / Water 1

    Level up movepool (open)

    Level 1 - Smog
    Level 1 - Sunny Day
    Level 1 - Withdraw
    Level 1 - Gastro Acid
    Level 6 - Ember
    Level 9 - Bide
    Level 15 - Smokescreen
    Level 18 - Fire Spin
    Level 24 - Acupressure
    Level 27 - Sludge
    Level 33 - Acid Armor
    Level 39 - Lava Plume
    Level 45 - Acid Spray
    Level 51 - Recover
    Level 57 - Flamethrower
    Level 63 - Heat Wave
    Level 69 - Inferno


    TM moves (open)


    TM04 Calm Mind
    TM06 Toxic
    TM09 Venoshock
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM14 Sunny Day !
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 Solarbeam
    TM24 Thunderbolt
    TM25 Thunder
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM34 Sludge Wave
    TM35 Flamethrower !
    TM36 Sludge Bomb
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM42 Facade
    TM43 Flame Charge
    TM44 Rest
    TM46 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM70 Flash
    TM73 Thunder Wave
    TM83 Work Up
    TM90 Substitute


    Egg moves (open)

    - Eruption
    - Clear Smog
    - Moonlight
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stockpile
    - Spit Up
    - Swallow
    - Heal Bell
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Trick
    - Disable
    - Encore


    Example sets (open)


    Offensive tank Recover / Fire Blast / Sludge Bomb / Thunderbolt/Thunder/Rapid Spin/Acid Spray

    Support Rapid Spin/Toxic Spikes / Heal Bell/Toxic Spikes / Lava Plume / Recover

    Calm Mind Calm Mind / Lava Plume/Fire Blast / Sludge Bomb / Recover

    Toxic Stall Substitute / Recover / Flamethrower / Toxic

    Pivot Lava Plume/Fire Blast / Sludge Bomb / Recover / Rapid Spin/Heal Bell

    Choice Fire Blast / Sludge Bomb / Thunderbolt / Trick/Eruption


    The level-up movepool is largely based on other Pokemon like Mollux - especially Magcargo.

    Mollux absolutely needs recovery do its job well, so Recover is self-explanatory. Without Recover, Mollux would be a lot worse, as it simply can't last long at all. Moonlight is a cute option as well for sun teams, although I doubt that it will be used much at all.

    For support options, I choose Heal Bell, Toxic Spikes, and Rapid Spin. Toxic Spikes is pretty mediocre, especially in a tier where there will inevitably be an inflation in Mollux, but some teams will still appreciate the support. Heal Bell allows Mollux to further support the team while Rapid Spin gives Mollux more of a "bulky offensive pivot" niche, as well as being a brilliant move in general. Mollux's typing may not be optimal for spinning, but I feel as if it will still see a lot of use. I didn't include Stealth Rock because Mollux already has a ton of other options to use for supporting, and it's not mainly a support Pokemon. I would like to see other options used other than SR and Rapid Spin/Heal Bell. I also don't see how Mollux could use SR, but that's a different story.

    Trick and Eruption were chosen so Choice sets could be viable. I doubt that they will see much use, but they're always nice, interesting options. Calm Mind is a good option for sweeping, but it (and the Pokemon itself) have quite a few flaws that will prevent Mollux from being fantastic at sweeping. I can see defensive CM being really effective, as Mollux doesn't have to worry about any status other than paralysis and sleep, however its physical side is really vulnerable without a niche option like Acid Armor.

    Acid Spray and Clear Smog are two moves that are rarely seen in competitive play, but flavor-wise fit Mollux well. As I didn't give Mollux any phazing moves, Clear Smog is useful for removing stat boosts, and it also might do some slight damage. Acid Spray forces switches well, and because Mollux lacks any +2 boosting moves, it can be a very useful move for offensive Mollux. Both moves may not see much use on Mollux, but they're still decent options.
  9. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Trubbish and Foongus also get Rollout, albeit through breeding, which I implied when I mentioned it. Maybe it's actually better in breeding.

    My level pool was actually designed to suck in the beginning, decided well before the art was decided. At any rate, though, it does have Poison Sting, and 45 is enough for stuff like Pidgey and Venipede to do whatever, so I don't think it's a huge stretch. I might put in a special move in there now that I have to accept that I can't decide whether Mollux should have an evo or not right now, but no promises.

    I kind of agree with you on Brick Break, but to be fair, Parasect also gets Brick Break! I think I'll continue to obey the strong Dry Skin precedent on this one.
  10. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Well I envisioned Leech Life and Poison Jab with Mollux using its harpoon, just as said by Nyktos. Also, its based on this image... Kudos to Mos_Quitoxe for showing us the predatory side of the cute little snail.

    Copied from Mos-Quitoxe's Art Thread - do go visit (open)
    [​IMG]


    And I'm gonna fix the typo immediately. Thanks.
  11. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

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    Thanks for the feedback BMB and Banryu. I always appreciate feedback. I’ll address each of the concerns that you raised and note any changes I made accordingly.

    I’ll start with Banryu. I’m glad you like my level up movepool. I’ll admit it is by far the part of the movepool that I spent the most time on. If you would like to borrow bits and pieces from it, I say go right ahead just as long as you don’t straight up copy paste it. Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb are a part of the TM movepool. Its just I didn’t Bold them because I already Counted them as VGM’s.
    You don’t understand why I chose Fairy as an Egg Group, and I can see why, so I will provide a walkthrough on how I got to Fairy. I started off by going to Bulbipedia and looking at the descriptions of all of the Egg Groups. I’ve reproduced them below:

    Monster group: Pokémon in this group are saurian/kaijū-like in appearance and nature.
    • Water 1 group: Pokémon in this group are amphibious in nature.
    • Bug group: Pokémon in this group are insectoid (bug-like) in appearance.
    • Flying group: Pokémon in this group are avian (bird-like) in appearance.
    • Field group: The largest group, Pokémon here are terrestrial in nature. In Stadium 2, this Egg group was known as "Ground".
    • Fairy group: Pokémon in this group are petite and considered very cute.
    • Grass group: Pokémon in this group are plant-like in appearance. In Stadium 2, this Egg group was known as "Plant".
    • Human-Like group: Pokémon in this group are fully bipedal. In Stadium 2, this Egg group was known as "Humanshape".
    • Water 3 group: Pokémon in this group resemble aquatic invertebrates.
    • Mineral group: Pokémon in this group are inorganic in nature.
    • Amorphous group: Pokémon in this group are amorphous, having no definite form. In Stadium 2 this Egg group was known as "Indeterminate".
    • Water 2 group: Pokémon in this group are piscine (fish-like) in appearance.
    • Ditto group: As the name implies, Ditto is the only Pokémon in this group, and is capable of breeding with all others (regardless of gender) aside from those in the Undiscovered and the Ditto group.
    • Dragon group: Pokémon in this group are draconic in appearance.
    • Undiscovered group: Pokémon in this group are unable to breed with anything. In Stadium 2, this Egg group was known as "No eggs".

    From this list, its clear to me that some descriptions didn’t fit mollux. Monster,Flying, Grass, Field, Human like, Water 2, Ditto, Dragon and undiscoved to be specific. My reasoning should be fairly easy to follow. After eliminating the absolutely not egg groups, I was left with Bug (the Shuckle is fairly similar), Fairy (Mollux definitely qualifies as cute) , Mineral (The Shell could work to that effect), Amorphous (Snails don’t exactly have a fixed shape), and Water 3(its an aquatic invertebrate) These were the five Breeding groups I was considering. And I even consider acceptable on mollux. When deciding on which Group I wanted Mollux, the first one I ruled out was bug because while Mollux is somewhat similar to shuckle, it is not an insect and it seemed to fit in better with the pokes of the other egg groups. I wasn’t a huge fan of Water 3 because even though we are casting Mollux as a fire type at home in water, it still is a fire type and I felt like putting a fire type in water 3 just didn’t seem right, so I can see where people got the mollux to water 3 connection from, but I am not a huge fan. I then moved onto amorphous, and I must admit I fell in love with this group from the start. The Pokes in this group don’t have a defined shape, and as a snail neither does mollux. Also Magcargo, which is a fire slug Pokémon, is in this group, and I find it easier to relate the snail like Mollux to the sluglike Magcargo compared to the deformed turtle that is shuckle. Plus Amorphous provides a bunch of options for egg moves (thanks gardevoir) so I placed Mollux in the amorphous group. Now I was down to Fairy and Mineral. I could see Mollusk fitting into mineral given the whole entire glass shell thing (I think its made of glass) but I eventually decided on fairy for a few reasons. First off the members of the fairy group are somewhat random (you gow from Roselia to Chansey to Pikachu) really, all that these Pokémon have in common in my opinion is that they can be considered cute, and since I consider Mollux to be a fairly cute poke, it seemed like it could fit in the Fairy Group. The other reason I placed it in Fairy is because Fairy provides a bunch of potential egg moves, so it gave me the option of giving Mollux whatever I wanted it to have for its egg moves, and this versatility pushed me to place mollux in fairy.
    So that was how I ended up placing mollux in fairy and amorphous. However, as I countinue to look at my egg move list, I feel that I gave Mollux a bunch of options that really didn’t fit together that well, so I am considering scrapping the egg list and making a new one. I will probably change up the Egg Group as I do this so this whole entire justification of fairy as an Egg group was kinda pointless but w/e. the egg moves are easily the weakest part of my proposed movepool, so I will be revamping it and posting a new version soon.

    Now to respond to BugManiacBob. I removed Octazooka in an attempt to make the level up move list smaller, and I will probably move rapid spin to egg moves once I get the new egg list done, so that should cut my level up list to 17 moves. I’m afraid I don’t know what other moves to cut, as I feel like cutting any more would start messing with the little story I made for mollux’s level up moves. I know explosion is learned really early, earlier than on any other Pokémon, but at the same time I think I do tie it in and justify it pretty well flavor wise. However, I will consider giving Mollux Self-destruct over Explosion at level 6 (which has precedent with pineco) if most people have a problem with explosion but explosion does fit better than self destruct because explosion sounds more involuntary. As for Façade, that was an oversight and it was corrected.I’ll post an illegalities list once I make the changes I want to make to the Egg Moves. Your right in saying that would be very useful/necessary. Finally, I was wondering why you don’t like the move tutors? Is it because you feel like I didn’t do the move tutor thing properly or because you are against the whole idea of adding in game elements just for the sake of the CAP’s movepool? If it’s the latter, do any other people have this concern? I can come up with something else in that case or just scrap Hurricane or Thunder entirely. That’s always an option. Once again, Thanks both BMB and Banryu for the feedback. I always appreciate constructive criticism.
  12. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
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    I interpreted the cone snail harpoon as Poison Sting (though I could see how Pin Missile and Spike Cannon would work for the same flavor just as well); regardless, Poison Jab's description implies that it is an attack using arms / tentacles (otherwise, some Pokemon that lack appendages seem to be able to use Poison Jab if they're covered in sharp objects ala Cloyster or Ferroseed; neither condition is very well fulfilled by Mollux).

    If Shelmet gets Leech Life, then feel free to ignore my concerns about that; Mollux's mouth does look like Shelmet's!

    @ forestflamerunner: Selfdestruct at level 6 would be a lot less excessive than Explosion at level 6; I would agree with this change.
  13. Fritzmonger

    Fritzmonger

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    Updated Starmie breeding error, added in comments on movepool, cheers for the help guys. Any other questions queries with the moveset let me know
  14. srk1214

    srk1214 Epke Motherf**in Zonderland
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    Alrighty. My movepool is finalized at the moment here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4263849&postcount=10

    If anyone wants to make questions/suggestions/comments/criticisms etc, please do. I'll be editing in more stuff as long as this thread stays open, most likely. I'm hoping the skeleton all looks good, though. After all, I've submitted a few of these.
  15. Banryu

    Banryu

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    The main thing that concerns me is the disclusion of Calm Mind and Flame Charge. In the case of Flame Charge, I think I know why you left it out, but it's a move that nearly all Fire-type Pokemon recieve, right? It'd be like if a Fire-type didn't get Will-O-Wisp or Flamethrower-- that just doesn't happen. Calm Mind isn't as necessary, but I'm simply curious as to your reasoning for leaving it out. Another nitpick I have is the inclusion of Water Gun in level-up; that irritates me slightly, but not enough to matter, really... I assume it's for cone snail-specific flavor reasons.

    And for everyone, I'm wondering this: what are the merits of including Thunder Wave that allows Mollux to achieve its concept? I don't feel that it does, but there's no overly specific reason for my thinking that. Does anyone have a solid reason why Thunder Wave helps Mollux achieve his concept?
  16. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Final Submission
    VGMs: 28
    Total Moves: 54
    Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate (DW)
    I have constructed my movepool with a few things in mind, and here I will elaborate upon them. First I want to discuss the competitive notions. I have focused on a few key notes with my movepool:

    • Good and diverse STAB options
    • Good coverage, but exclusive with certain very powerful support moves
    • Good support moves with intricate legalities that keep them in check
    Most importantly, I felt that Mollux needed options. For this reason, you'll see Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and Recover on my movepool. These three moves are the most important for CAP 3 to pose a relevant threat. Keep in mind that CAP 3 is a very offensively powerful Pokemon, and heals 3/16 of its HP (more than Breloom's Poison heal, for example) per turn. For this reason, I specifically designed my egg pool to make Recover illegal with most major other options, so that if you pick Recover, you're going to specifically pick Recover for maximum longevity. Beyond that, you're going to see that most of what CAP 3 learns with my movepool is very tailored to its needs. There are dozens of 'awesome' support and offensive moves that are allowed, but I firmly believe that CAP 3 does not need all of that to be a competitively relevant Pokemon. Giving it all that stuff will only serve to distract from the concept.

    Flavor-wise, I think I've struck a chord with CAP 3. Cone snails are terrifying creatures in nature, quite frankly. Here, watch some videos:

    You'll immediately see why I chose such gems as Poison Sting, Dig, Swallow, Stockpile, Withdraw, Defense Curl, and Acid Spray. These moves really scream 'cone snail'. Furthermore, you'll notice that I have spent a good amount of space on the flavor of Mollux having an illuminating, opening lava lamp on its body. There are lots of cool moves for that, such as Flash, Camouflage, and Eruption. Furthermore, I think that as far as shells go, Mollux's is pretty volatile and explosive. Thus, you'll see the moves Explosion, Selfdestruct, and yes, Shell Smash. Shell Smash is like the most important flavor move for a Pokemon with a shell like this, so I absolutely had to have it in my movepool. That's a nice segue to my next point, actually:
    My movepool has Mollux's Dream World ability, Illuminate, as unreleased.
    This means that CAP 3 is competitively forced to use Dry Skin on every set, which, quite frankly, it should anyway. It also means that Shell Smash, which I have listed as a Dream World move for Mollux, cannot be used. Thus, I don't break any of the illegalities. One last note about my flavor is that I really have always thought that Mollux's art reminded me a lot of Shuckle and other Bug-types, and so I have a lot of "Shuckle references" in my movepool. Things like Struggle Bug, Acupressure, Minimize, and Rage Powder all reminisce of a small and cute bug dude (even though Shuckle doesn't necessarily get them all). This is also why I have Bug as one of the egg groups, so that our lovely Mollux can breed with the likes of Shelmet and Shuckle. The mineral egg group made sense to me because Mollux's shell is entirely made of glass and some stone/metal stuff. It also helped make some of these awesome egg combinations possible.
    Level-Up Movepool (open)
    — Withdraw
    — Wrap
    4 Poison Sting
    8 Ember
    11 Flash
    16 Camouflage
    20 Wring Out
    25 Clear Smog
    27 Selfdestruct
    33 Gastro Acid
    36 Dig
    41 Acid Spray
    46 Lava Plume
    49 Minimize
    55 Explosion
    65 Eruption
    TM / HM Movepool (open)
    TM04 Calm Mind
    TM06 Toxic
    TM09 Venoshock
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 Solarbeam
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM28 Dig
    TM32 Double Team
    TM34 Sludge Wave
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM36 Sludge Bomb
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM42 Facade
    TM43 Flame Charge
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-O-Wisp
    TM64 Explosion
    TM70 Flash
    TM76 Struggle Bug
    TM90 Substitute
    Egg Movepool (open)
    Egg Groups: Bug / Mineral

    Acupressure
    Iron Defense
    Knock Off
    Flail
    Stealth Rock
    Rage Powder
    Thunder
    Rapid Spin
    Stockpile
    Swallow
    Recover
    Defense Curl
    Egg Move Combinations (open)
    Legal Combos:
    (Garbodor) Stockpile + Swallow
    (Accelgor) Recover
    (Shuckle) Acupressure + Knock Off + Stealth Rock + Defense Curl
    (Forretress) Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin + Iron Defense + Defense Curl + Flail
    (Ferrothorn) Thunder + Stealth Rock + Iron Defense
    (Heracross) Iron Defense + Knock Off + Flail
    (Parasect) Knock Off + Flail + Rage Powder

    Relevant Competitive Illegal Combos:
    Thunder + Recover
    Thunder + Rapid Spin
    Rapid Spin + Recover
    Stealth Rock + Recover
    Dream World Movepool (open)
    Shell Smash
  17. srk1214

    srk1214 Epke Motherf**in Zonderland
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    Flame Charge is indeed on every single current Fully Evolved Fire-type except for Heatmor. However one exception is all it takes for me to not consider it required flavor. And it's a freaking snail. Calm Mind was excluded on mine because, as Deck said, Mollux is a bulky offensive pivot, not a sweeper. Calm Mind is hardly required flavor-wise, and as such I excluded it because it is competitively unnecessary to fulfill its team role. Charge Beam is provided as a less reliable way to boost Special Attack, while not aiding in defense and contributing to 4MSS. For Water Gun, I included most any move I could that would suggest the harpoon-ness of Mollux. I had to leave out some to avoid a bloated level-up or egg movepool, but Water Gun was one I chose to keep. I felt a level-up water move was necessary for the logic of being in the Water 3 Egg Group.

    As for Thunder Wave, there is little harm to giving it. Mollux already has Will-o-wisp, Toxic, and Lava Plume. Not to mention Toxic Spikes inflicting status potentially as well. Moreover, few of Mollux's checks/counters mind Thunder Wave, due to being Ground-type or Ttar, many of which are slow. This would affect likely just Terrakion, who burn already maims, and Lati@s. I am not worried about it competitively if it only changes the matchup against Lati@s. I included it for flavor reasons due to also having included already Thunder, Thunderbolt, and Charge Beam.



    EDIT: D'oh! How did I forget Poison Sting in my Level-up pool? Thanks Dusk for reminding me of that... and here I was trying to be so flavorful!
  18. nyttyn

    nyttyn No regrets
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    971
    Thanks for the criticisms all. I really apprecaite it, and..

    Wait a fucking minute.

    Wait a godsdamn fucking minute.

    ...What?

    Can you even do that? Does suddenly rendering past points of the CAP to be "unreleased" even serve a point? Just so you can arbitarily include shell smash what?!


    Gods above please tell me I'm being trolled here. Please. And someone please put a stop to this crap before we have people suddenly announcing abilities are unreleased just so they can use it as a excuse to squeeze out forbidden moves as "unreleased DW flavor lol."


    Seriously Dusk what the fuck.
  19. Banryu

    Banryu

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,740
    Hmm. Well this is certainly an interesting turn of events. Trying to force it a bit, aren't we RD? It'll be interesting to see how Deck reacts to that...

    ...well... anyway... It DOES look pretty good moves-wise and I like the inclusion of Dig in RD's. It occurred to me that Withdraw is NOT an optimal flavor move for Mollux, gastropod or otherwise, given as it is that his shell is... erm... occupied, more or less. I'd like to see Charge over Withdraw but that's really just nitpicking.


    Fair enough... A convincing argument. At least for me, LOL. I'm impressionable....

    Hm. Although you could use other moves for the 'Water 3' flavor if you even believe it's necessary (I don't), though there are moves such as Soak and Whirlpool that could have provided that flavor as well. Other moves like Poison Sting and Poison Jab sort of better fit that 'harpoon-ness' than Water Gun does.

    A fair point. Flavor-wise, there's the electrical connection, and the videos Dusk posted reminded me that cone snails' venom is predominantly a paralyzing poison; thus, Thunder Wave fits the flavor profile (of both components, since lava lamps are electrical).

    I think I have some more editing to do in my own movepool.
    EDIT: My next question for discussion would be, how important is Final Gambit in the fulfillment of Mollux's role? I suppose the question is, can it use it effectively? ...because if it can't, I think I might axe it from my movepool. :|
    EDIT AGAIN: Also, does anyone have a good flavor rationalization for Power Gem on this guy? I sure can't think of one.
    Edit yet again: Changed some more stuff in my movepool.
  20. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

    Joined:
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    2,628
    Twinneedle.
  21. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    I've been lurking around CAP for a while, more actively since Necturna and following this CAP's creation right from the start - so although it's my first post I ensure you I put a lot of thought into this.


    FINAL SUBMISSION

    Total VGM: 36 (3 repeats)
    Total Moves 69 (3 repeats)

    Level Up List

    VGM: 5
    Moves: 16
    Show Hide

    - Charge
    - Discharge
    - Flash
    - Bide
    - Withdraw
    - Wrap
    Lv1 Flash
    Lv1 Bide
    Lv3 Withdraw
    Lv6 Wrap
    Lv9 Poison Sting
    Lv12 Fire Spin
    Lv16 Wish
    Lv20 Whirlpool
    Lv25 Acid Spray
    Lv30 Lava Plume
    Lv36 Moonlight

    Lv42 Venoshock
    Lv49 Eruption
    Lv58 Final Gambit

    I've been a minimalist for the Level Up list, so its competitive moves arrive at the end. The reasoning behind this is I envision Mollux as the type of Pokemon that is fairly tame in their natural environment, but when bred or trained specifically for battle obtain the power and tools that make them useful. Gyarados growing out of the weak Magikarp is an extreme example of this, but I rather error on the side of too few options in Level Up and make up for it elsewhere. Mollux have plenty of useful moves, just can't use all of them at once.

    Acid Spray and Lava Plume are two STAB moves with reliable accuracy that aren't TMs but I wanted easily available to any Mollux, whether offensive or defensive. Gunk Shot, Eruption and Final Gambit are in here as power options in the highest levels. Recover isn't here, but both Moonlight and Wish are, with their own drawbacks, to offer both sun and rain/weatherless teams some form of recovery. Charge and Discharge are available as Heart Scale moves, but really for flavor and not competitive reasons (and because the two make a cool-sounding combo), though they do establish a link with Electric moves. Whirlpool is weak but is readily available Water coverage and since it traps, I can actually picture it being used with Acid Spray in one moveset to surprise Mollux' usual counters. Wrap and Fire Spin complete a trio of trapping moves and Flash is pure flavor.



    TM Moves List

    VGM: 21 (3 repeats)
    Moves: 37 (3 repeats)
    Show Hide

    TM 04: Calm Mind
    TM 06: Toxic

    TM 09: Venoshock (Repeat from Level Up List)
    TM 10: Hidden Power
    TM 11: Sunny Day
    TM 15: Hyper Beam
    TM 16: Light Screen
    TM 17: Protect

    TM 18: Rain Dance
    TM 20: Safeguard
    TM 21: Frustration
    TM 22: Solarbeam
    TM 24: Thunderbolt
    TM 25: Thunder
    TM 27: Return
    (Repeat of Frustration)
    TM 32: Double Team
    TM 34: Sludge Wave
    TM 35: Flamethrower
    TM 36: Sludge Bomb
    (Equivalent to Sludge Wave)
    TM 38: Fire Blast
    TM 41: Torment
    TM 42: Facade
    TM 43: Flame Charge
    TM 44: Rest

    TM 45: Attract
    TM 46: Thief
    TM 48: Round
    TM 50: Overheat
    TM 57: Charge Beam

    TM 59: Incinerate
    TM 61: Will-o-Wisp
    TM 68: Giga Impact
    TM 70: Flash
    TM 73: Thunder Wave
    TM 76: Struggle Bug
    TM 87: Swagger
    TM 90: Substitute

    Through TMs Mollux gets both the essential damage moves (Fire gets Flamethower / Fire Blast / Overheat; Poison gets Venoshock / Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb; Electric gets Thunder / Thunderbolt) and the status moves to provide support (Toxic, Will'o'Wisp, and Thunder Wave). I see no harm in giving Mollux access to Thunder Wave, since while it lets it beat some of its counters it is a risky option - it lets Ground types switch in for free, and it'll be competing for a moveslot with the other two statuses. Solarbeam is Mollux' only Grass move, so it'll be relegated to the sun teams. Despite decent neutral Fire/Poison/Electric coverage on monotypes there are many dual-typed combos that resist that, especially Rock/Ground that either HP Grass or HP Water (with Rain boost) would hit x4 weak, but will still be competing with HP Fighting (for Tyranitar), HP Ground (for Heatran) and HP Ice (for Gliscor, Landorus, Dragonite, and finally Flygon, who resists Fire/Electric/Poison and is neutral to Grass AND Water).

    For setup, there's Calm Mind, Flame Charge and Charge Beam. For team support there's Sunny Day and Rain Dance, Light Screen but not Reflect, plus Safeguard. For disruption, if that's your game, there's Torment (with Substitute/Protect?) and the obligatory Swagger (to combine with Thunder Wave?).

    Of the remaining moves, most were required, but Struggle Bug I put in purely for flavor among the TMs.



    Egg Moves List

    VGM: 8
    Moves: 12
    Show Hide

    Egg Groups: Amorphous / Water 3

    Acid (Tentacool, Lileep, Eelektrik, or chain breed onto Litwick)
    Acid Armor (Grimer, or chain breed onto Slugma, Gulpin, or Litwick)
    Aqua Ring (Corsola, or chain breed onto Tentacool or Shellder)
    Clear Smog (Koffing, or chain breed onto Gastly, Shellos, or Litwick)
    Disable (Grimer, Duskull, Yamask, or chain breed onto Gastly, Ralts, Shuppet or Drifloon)
    Encore (Gulpin, or chain breed onto Ralts)
    Gastro Acid (Gulpin, Lileep, Eelektrik)
    Knock Off (Corphish, Shuppet, Skorupi, or chain breed onto Tentacool, Krabby, Omanyte, Kabuto, Anorith, Tirtouga, or Archen)
    Power Gem (Corsola)
    Rapid Spin (Tentacool, Shellder, Kabuto, Anorith)
    Recover (Slugma, Corsola, Lileep, Shellos)
    Toxic Spikes (Tentacool, Cloyster, Skorupi, or chain breed onto Omanyte)

    Legal Combinations

    Corsola: Aqua Ring + Power Gem + Recover
    Grimer: Acid Armor + Disable
    Gastly: Clear Smog + Disable
    Gulpin: Acid Armor + Gastro Acid + Encore
    Lileep: Acid + Gastro Acid + Recover
    Litwick: Acid + Acid Armor + Clear Smog
    Ralts: Disable + Encore
    Shellos: Clear Smog + Recover
    Slugma: Acid Armor + Recover
    Tentacool: Acid + Aqua Ring + Knock Off + Rapid Spin + Toxic Spikes

    (I may have overlooked some over here)

    Noteworthy Illegal Combinations:
    Rapid Spin/Toxic Spikes + Disable/Encore
    Disable/Encore/Rapid Spin/Toxic Spikes + Recover

    When deciding on Egg Groups I thought about Fairy for maybe 1 second, then noted that Smeargle is Field/Fairy and knew that if I wanted to keep my illegalities relevant, I had to look elsewhere. Bug and Mineral I scratched because I didn't want Forretress or Ferrothorn as potential fathers, so instead I went to Amorphous (Pokemon with no definite shape, like Grimer) and Water 3 (aquatic invertebrates) and realized that even from a flavor standpoint, that pair seems to be the best choice.

    As to which Egg moves to choose, I focused much of Mollux's support and disruption options here. Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes come here, as well as Clear Smog and Knock Off. Encore and Disable are in here for the potential gimmick with Substitute, Torment and a trapping offensive move. Recover is here, but compatible with only a few of the other Support moves like Clear Smog, Aqua Ring and Acid Armor. Aqua Ring is here for recovery on the spinner/T-spiker (but then Tentacruel will outclass it). However, Recover is compatible with Power Gem and all the remaining coverage options that offensive Mollux might run, as those come from TMs and Level Up. Defensive Mollux that might want to toxic/burn stall still have the option to run Wish/Protect or Wish/Subtitute, but then 4MSS kicks in, probably the most balanced set to form would be Lava Plume/Toxic(Spikes)/Wish/Protect then. Anyhow this way Moonlight and Wish aren't always outclassed by Recover, and even Aqua Ring can get some consideration.



    Dream World

    VGM: 2
    Moves: 4
    Show Hide

    Heal Bell
    Soak
    Sweet Kiss
    Switcheroo

    There were a few moves leftover that I wanted to squeeze in but obtaining them through Egg Groups wasn't an option. Sweet Kiss is purely for the fans and Soak for the theorymon to rejoice. I really wanted to include Heal Bell but without putting Mollux in the Fairy Egg group, I needed to move it here. Switcheroo is the fourth and most interesting move. Because of the utility of crippling a switch in with a Choice item or stealing Heatran's (or rival Mollux's) Balloon, I intentionally left it incompatible with its key Egg moves like Recover and Rapid Spin, and to a lesser extent, Encore, Disable and Toxic Spikes. A primarily offensive set with 3 attacks is easy to assemble however, taking any of Mollux's Fire / Poison / Electric moves, and optionally Hidden Power (or Solarbeam on a sunny team), then choosing Switcheroo for the fourth slot. Alternately a trapping move (Wrap/Fire Spin/Whirlpool), Switcheroo, Torment and some fourth move (either Wish/Moonlight, or Toxic, or another attack) can cripple a defensive mon with the choice item and defeat it 1on1 for a gimmicky set that has a chance to succeed.



    What Was Left Out
    Show Hide

    Growth - A toy to use on sun teams, but honestly I can't see the point in running it over Calm Mind. Its Attack boosts are wasted with Mollux's awful Atk stat, and the +2 Sp.Atk when Mollux can be outsped and revenged make it an inferior choice to Calm Mind building up a slow yet stable sweep. With only Flame Charge to boost its Speed and Eruption and Solarbeam for its sun-weather offensive moves, it's simply better to run Choice Mollux on sun teams, and on the Choice set Growth won't be helpful.

    Heat Wave - I wanted to include both this and Flame Burst but didn't want to go over 16 moves in the Level Up list, and so they lost against Charge/Discharge/Whirlpool. Even if I did include them Mollux already has plenty of Fire STAB to choose from, and even if CAP doubles existed - what can a mon weak to Surf Earthquake and Rock Slide accomplish there?

    Hurricane - Thunder as TM means no Hurricane. Honestly I was never a fan of this option, in rain Thunder provides a strong enough hit, paralysis is superior to Confusion, and against most Fighting targets the Fire and Poison moves are strong enough. Lucario is roasted by Fire and neutral to Thunder, Croagunk takes boosted damage from Fire, Infernape/Emboar are neutral to Poison AND Thunder(bolt) and Terakion is our check, neutral to Thunder, and won't like either burn or paralysis. At least this saves me the trouble of coming up with a flavor justification for it.

    Ingrain - With a trapping move Mollux could set up even on a phazer, which would be broken. More importantly using this move at the wrong time could leave Mollux unable to switch out from an incoming OHKO Earthquake. Finally, there's Aqua Ring already.

    Magic Coat - One gem among too many and probably the least logical additional I could've selected from a purely flavor standpoint.

    Mud Shot - Unnecessary coverage when there's Hidden Power.

    Octazooka - Pseudo-STAB in rain, frees up Hidden Power slot, and it's Octillery's signature move. Not a chance.

    Pain Split - I wanted to include it for the fun interaction between it and Final Gambit, ensuring a KO, especially with a trapping move's chip damage and Dry Skin+Leftovers recovery. I ran out of room though, and since it turned the tables on Chansey and Blissey and other bulky mons (like Jirachi, the Latis, Tyranitar and Heatran) without caring for their type I chose to leave it out for good.

    Poison Jab - I initially had it on the TMs list, but when push came to shove and some moves had to go, I dropped this one as physical Mollux doesn't stand a chance anyway.

    Recycle - As fun as a returning Air Balloon could prove, I don't see much competitive value in that trick, as Mollux has 4MSS already, and it's no Magnezone who can run mono-Electric and thus fit in Magnet Rise if it really wants to.

    Skill Swap - I wanted to include either it or Entrainment as a Dream World move but could only choose 4 and finally decided this gimmick simply wasn't worth it. Even Sweet Kiss has more merit on a parafusion annoyer set.

    Stealth Rock - There are plenty of other Stealth Rockers available in OU who can use this better. Plus there's no justification for flavor or otherwise to let Mollux have it, unlike T-Spikes.

    Taunt - A big one to leave out, however Encore makes up for it somewhat. This means Mollux can't stop enemy hazard setters or walls with recovery moves from doing their job... indirectly. However, Mollux's high Sp.Atk and high power moves should threaten them directly enough that they can't stay in. Meanwhile Encore and Clear Smog can ruin setup sweepers and net either free switch ins or free turns for setup, whether with Calm Mind, T-Spikes, or Flame Charge/Charge Beam, or just more offense. With all that in mind I figured Taunt was unnecessary.

    Wring Out - I've seen it added here and there but with the coverage Mollux already has a Normal power move is not what it needs. Plus Final Gambit rounds out its level up movepool better, and it has merit on a bulky Mollux with its usable 95 Base HP.

    Yawn - I considered adding it as an Egg move from Gulpin, but encountered several problems. Not only would it let Mollux mess with its counters without requiring prediction, unlike coverage moves or Substitute, it'd conflict with its other statuses and ultimately turn out redundant.



    Final Comments
    Show Hide
    I've tried to fullfill what Deck Knight put forth, making Mollux an offensive pivot. Instead of expanding type coverage in offensive moves I gave Mollux plenty of choices among its two STABs and Electric for dealing with Water types. Moreover the majority of its support options come as egg moves, not level up, even Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, so players will have to make some hard choices about what kind of support they really need. The offensive moves capitalize on Mollux's good Sp.Atk stat to force switches through its offensive presence.

    At the same time, the unique attributes of Fire/Poison give Mollux great potential as a status platform. That's why it gets Lava Plume, Discharge, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Will'o'Wisp, Thunder Wave and Heal Bell through DW. With the many free turns it will force it can opt to cripple counters with status if one predicts correctly (or just packs Substitute); however, blowing holes in the enemy team with a Life Orb + 3 attacks set (and Recover) or all out 4 attacks Choice set is also a good choice, or it can effectively mix the two (like taking Toxic/T-Spikes and Lava Plume for the immune Steel types) and be good (well, at least as good as Heatran at that).

    Its coverage outside of Fire / Poison / Electric I kept purposefully narrow, only Solarbeam for sun teams and Power Gem as an egg move (and incompatible with its key support options) so the choice of Hidden Power becomes vital to Mollux, and part of countering it might be discovering which type of Hidden Power it chose. Likewise, Wish and Moonlight provide alternatives to Recover, which offensive Mollux can access, and even combine with Calm Mind (but then will have to give up coverage) while defensive Mollux have some healing available to them while spinning or screening or anything else. It also means it cannot become a pure setup sweeper, as the boosting moves and coverage it has available aren't enough, but has a small chance to finish as a clean up sweeper given proper support and just Calm Mind.

    Finally, Mollux's disruption that I added through moves like Encore, Disable, Torment, Clear Smog, Knock Off and trapping moves allow Mollux to deal with threats without granting it more powerful moves of varied coverage at all. These add a degree of unpredictability while ensuring Mollux isn't setup fodder for setup sweepers, and can combine into an excellent wallbreaker (immune to damaging status!) that doesn't rely on Taunt/Heal Block or Arena Trap/Shadow Tag/Magnet Pull. This way it can fill other niches beyond being an offensive pivot, but they'll be secondary to that main role, and with some unpredictability to Mollux help it threaten the Pokemon it should threaten.


    Long post is long for sure, but I got to finish somewhere, so... good luck to everyone's submissions and may the best one win!
  22. Darklatias92

    Darklatias92

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    37
    So? Even Slugma and Magcargo (two snails) and Torkoal (a tortoise) learn it and they are MUCH slower than Mollux (20 and 30 vs 76… heck, CAP's speed is more than double!). I don't see why you wouldn't include it, but is your choice.
  23. GlassAbsol

    GlassAbsol

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Messages:
    445
    Cite and Pune, you say your Level up is Minimalist. you've got 20 moves and you've got 6 level 0 moves. That's a little unrealistic. Maybe don't repeat the first 4 level moves. Otherwise I think it's pretty solid, maybe swap Eruption and Final Gambit?

    My Current favourites are Dusk's and Cape's I like srk's too
  24. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    Of the 20 moves in that Level Up List, 4 are exact copies.

    I have to, because the first 2 are Heart Scale-only moves, and the 4 after that are what the Pokemon learns freshly hatched at level 1 (or its pre-evolution though we haven't decided that yet).

    If a Pokemon already knows the move, as would be the case with a newly hatched mon, it won't re-learn them upon leveling up. So because of 4 repeats the movepool is only 16 moves long... and only 14 of those matter unless Heart Scales are used.

    As to Eruption and Final Gambit.... I guess it's up to preference? I could change it up... though, Final Gambit sounds like it wants to be last.
  25. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    130
    Hi, Flarephoenix here. I'd like to talk about something that is bugging me flavour-wise (and movepools are a hybrid of flavour and competitiveness).

    Level-Up Movepools. A lot of the level-up pools I'm seeing have no recognizable pattern to the levels in which a pokemon learns move when they level up, if there even is one. Most (and I only saw most because I may have missed one) pokemon have a pattern to how they learn moves leveling up, with slight hiccups for evolution. And I have 3 Gen V Fire-types as examples:

    Heatmor - Nonevolving (open)

    -
    -
    6
    11
    16
    21
    26
    31
    36
    41
    46
    51
    56
    56
    56
    61

    This one is simple. Starting at level 6, Heatmor learns a new move every 5 levels. The only exception is 56 in which he learns 3 moves, but this is a special case of Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up which are always learned together.

    Other non-evolving patterns include: 3-6-3-6 (Seviper) and 2-3-3-4-4 etc (Tauros).


    Darmanitan - Evolves Once (open)

    -
    3
    6
    9
    11
    14
    17
    19
    22
    25
    27
    30
    33
    35
    39
    47
    54

    Evolving once, you can see a clear pattern of the prevo: 3-3-2-3-3-2. At the evolution point of level 35. After 35, it goes 4-8-7, but Level 39 is shared by both the evo and the prevo, so I'm not sure what kind of pattern the evolution has. But before evolving, there is a clear and concise pattern.


    Emboar - Evolves Twice (open)

    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    3
    7
    9
    13
    15
    17
    20
    23
    28
    31
    38
    43
    50
    55
    62

    Being a starter pokemon this may not fit exactly what you'd like for a 3-stage Mollux, but the other 3-stage Fire-line evolves a stone, so the final evo learns nothing.

    The pattern at stage 1: 4-2-4-2. Evolves at level 17 (and learns a new move)

    The pattern at stage 2: 5-3-5-3. It does got 15-17-20, but 17 is a special case of evolution, so if you go 15-20-23-28, the pattern fits perfectly. Note: 2nd stage learns a move at 36 (next in the pattern), but the evolution doesn't.

    The pattern at stage 3: 5-7-5-7 OR 7-5-7-5-7. Learns first move at 38, then pattern OR it starts at 31 and the pattern goes.


    There are patterns in level-up movepools. They're usually repeating patterns, but some, like Tauros, can have increasing patterns. I'd like to see more movepools implement patterns.

    Note: You don't need to copy another pokemon's patterns, you can easily make up new ones. And I used Gen V Fire-types because I feel they are the best comparison to what I would like to see for a Mollux level-up pool.
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